Do gay/bi women outnumber straight women in SL?

[Beth Quander]

Phil, Phil, Phil… come over here, sit down.  Have this cup of tea.  I need to do some aunt-splaning to you…  Now I’ll tell you this as gently as I can, but I’m afraid you might be a bit shocked by some of it.

“Some good reasons have been given and the biggest one by far, imo, is men playing women because sex between women generally appeals to men.”

You’d like to think that, I know.  It’s comforting.  But it’s more likely because playing a SL women is one of the only ways some RL men will get to have sex with a female avi at all.  And unfortunately the reason so many guys in SL “really need to know, or at least have a strong feeling, that a female avatar actually has a female person at the keyboard” is probably because of an unhappy combination of homophobia and that dark and sticky feeling of inadequacy creeping  up their spines.  Unattractive qualities both.

And this is just one reason why not some but many women “object to the idea of needing to prove their gender” to male avis.  It’s not so likely to be “an unfortunate consequence of men playing females”.  It’s more often down to male avi’s general rudeness and utter dismissiveness across the board.  “Hello – I’m from California – are you a woman in RL?”   “Well, I don’t give out RL information, I don’t think…”  And he’s gone!  Poofed away, didn’t even say goodbye.  Nothing like that cloying feeling of being completely unimportant and of no interest whatsoever except as a f***hole to really put some zing in your day.  And perhaps because RL men running SL females don’t enjoy the sexist disregard and complete objectification displayed by some male avis any more than  RL females do, this is another reason to hang out for ‘romance’ with another female avi?  So there may very well be several reasons for people to fault this ‘need to know’ and (just to tip you the wink) maybe folks might not take too kindly to being told they ‘shouldn’t’. 

Now, have you still got some tea left, there?  Cos this is the bit you might really not want to hear.  “Incidentally, it does happen … where women play male avatars and have romances with female avatars. .. It's uncommon that way round but it does happen.”  Phil, brace yourself, it probably happens far more often than you can imagine.  You know why?  Women running male avis are way better lovers than most guys.  Sorry and all, but I think you can take it.  So welcome to the club now, consider yourself initiated.  Oh – and have a garibaldi, they were made fresh this morning  :-)

[Phil Deakins]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

Orca Flotta wrote:

For women like me I coined the phrase SLesbian. **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" /> 

---

That's not a phrase. It's a word **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" />

 

Oh my. And here I thought I cleverly borrowed some elegant wordsmithing from natural born englishers. Of course SLesbian isn't a phrase but a ... hm ... wait a moment ... ugh .... a

term!

Can we agree on that?

BTW, what's wrong with anyone not being in SL primarily for pixel sex or founding virtual families or hooking up potential SLex partners? And why is it so important for many ppl to know other people's sexual preferences anyway? Want me to wear a pink triangle on my sleeve? They tried it in Germany between 1939-45; in the end it didn't  make them too many friends.

In my profile I state somewhere that for me SL= Second Life, not SL=Sex Life. But nowhere did I state my sexual preference. And I neither have a cam nor a microphone. Does that make me just outdated or a bad person?

---

Yes, 'SLesbian' is definitely a term. We can agree on that

There is nothing wrong with what you described. I didn't say it was wrong, and I didn't say that anyone who chooses not to use voice or a cam is even a slightly bad person. There is nothing at all wrong with anyone doing it exactly how they choose to do it.

I did say that, because men playing females is so common, and the idea of being intimate with a man using a female avatar is so undesirable to me, I do need to feel reasonably assured that the person the keyboard is a woman before I get into any of that with her. That doesn't necessarily mean voices or cams. There are plenty of female avatars that I'm sure are women, and who I would be comfortable with, without ever seeing them on cams or hearing their voices.

[Beth Quander]

The figures I generally throw around (and someone quoted some statistics to me from the internet, so obviously they must be true…) are that about 75% of the membership of Second Life is male. But over 50% of avatars in the game are female.

 I’ve also seen surveys saying that some RL females create a male alt just to get a bit of peace and quiet. Because while shy male avatars are left high and dry like barren islands in the social flow, whack a pair of boobs on an avatar and you are a chat magnet to all and sundry.  So RL females are slouching into a hoodie and sneakers in order to gawp at the scenery unmolested. And gregarious RL chaps apparently slip into some stilettos and a short frock just to be included in the conversation.

 The thing I find most puzzling of all about caring what the RL driver looks like (rather than, as you say Tex, how well they play the part for the situation on the screen) is that the worry is of bumping pixels with the "oft lampooned fat, unshaven, sweaty bloke in a grubby, dirty vest", when it could just as easily (and quite likely) be a fat, unshaven, sweaty woman in a grubby, dirty vest sitting at the keyboard.  Seriously – just where’s the difference?  I know, I know – the answers will come back as “I can’t answer that question! It’s just a feeling!” or “I don’t know! It’s just my nature!”  I’ll leave it as rhetorical. 

[Phil Deakins]

I already had a cup of tea on the go before I got to your post, Beth, and it's still on the go, so I didn't need another

You are probably right that there are more women playing males that I imagine. I come across so infrequently that I've really no idea. It seems to be unusual but I don't know.

Regardless of your reasoning, Nobody can fault anyone for needing to know a person's RL gender before getting into a 'romantic' relationship with them. Everyone has their own views and criteria concerning relationships, and nobody can fault another person's criteria. I don't find any fault if a female simply refuses to acknowledge her RL gender, and my attitude concerning it can't be faulted either.

Incidentally, I've never asked a female what her RL gender is. I've sometimes hopped into bed with female avatars without any thought of RL gender, but I've never put much in the way of effort into it. I'll never develop even a mild relationship with a female without a strong feeling that it really is an RL woman.

The rest of your post is fine. Everyone does things in the ways that suit them. I can't argue against what you or anyone else writes on this topic, even though much of it is not for me. I can argue against someone who finds fault with other people's views and way of doing things though. And I can argue against anyone who is offended that I need to feel reasonably sure that a female avatar is an RL woman before I will get into it with them, because that's just a statement that they are right and I am wrong, and that would be absolutely wrong.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Beth Quander wrote:

 The thing I find most puzzling of all about caring what the RL driver looks like (rather than, as you say Tex, how well they play the part for the situation on the screen) is that the worry is of bumping pixels with the "oft lampooned fat, unshaven, sweaty bloke in a grubby, dirty vest",

when it could just as easily (and quite likely) be a fat, unshaven, sweaty woman in a grubby, dirty vest sitting at the keyboard

.  Seriously – just where’s the difference?  I know, I know – the answers will come back as “I can’t answer that question! It’s just a feeling!” or “I don’t know! It’s just my nature!”  I’ll leave it as rhetorical. 

---

Lol! The difference for me is that there is no way in the world that I will accept being sexually physical with another man.- RL and SL. I'm not judging anyone when I say this, but I do find the idea of me having sex with another man to be totally abhorrent. How other men feel about it is their business, and not mine.

Pixel sex isn't just pixel sex. If it is, then it's a waste of time. Pixel sex gives rise to RL sex, and the idea of me doing that with a man is just too distasteful for words.

It's not what the RL person looks like. For me, it's the gender that matters, so the "fat, unshaven, sweaty woman in a grubby, dirty vest sitting at the keyboard" is acceptable

[Phil Deakins]

---

Tex Monday wrote:

I think you need to take into account that a lot of people in SL play ALTs. I have one other AV (who happens to be female) and you are allowed 8 per main account. So it is possible that a large number (maybe my 60% was off as well) of female AVs are played by men.

---

I also have a female alt, but I never use her around SL. I created her within days of first joining (she cost $5 back then), The intention was to use her as a pole-dancer to make a few L$, but it never happened, simply because I'd no idea how to go about it. All she's ever been used for is testing animations as I made them, and positioning couples animations in my furniture.

I also have a lot more female alts - and males. But they were created to be bots so they never log in these days. One of them was a damsel-in-distress in my castle. It was funny watching a guy trying to get her to get on the sexbed in her tower room. Another was a sexbed demo bot. She used to get tips! lol. And she used to get guys asking her to remove her undies lol.

[Beth Quander]

Phil – take another look – I gave you the ‘out’ on the fault thing.  I think you’ll find we’re actually in agreement on not liking others suggesting to us what we ‘should’ and ‘shouldn’t’ think or do.  So far from asking for my garibaldis back – please, help yourself to a custard cream  :-)

[Phil Deakins]

Garibaldis are ok but custard creams are much much better

I don't need an 'out' though. I haven't written anything that I need an out for.

Also, I don't get many ins these days, but that's by choice

[Melita Magic]

Probably someone has said this; I will read the topic through later to see. But it's an opinion topic, so I don't usually read those first before giving my opinion, since no one can do that but me.

Most of the gay or bi women (avatars) on SL are men.

I think a fair amount of the male avs dressed as transgender hookers are female. (So I've heard enough say. Hmm, how do I know that? More like overheard.)

Go figure.

[Ceka Cianci]

i know a lot of other girls in sl that are not lesbians..

heck when i used to work at GOL..a lot of the DJ staff was woman that were with other men..

a lot of the managers and the ceo's that i met there..

it was the same way with most of the clubs i worked at..even my good friends that were dancers..we all play flirted kidding around..

especially when i was head manager..it seemed like i could not get out of IM's and chats..hehehe

but there were a lot of ones that played they were lesbians also..and there were some lesbians..but 

out of the girls that i worked with..we were all mostly straight and leaning on each others shoulders in our  drama through breakups..

well i was always with my husband so really no breakups for me..but there was always someone breaking up in the clubs..i was more mediator and good at not letting drama flow past us into the customers.. lol

really if people are just gonna be friends in here..then take people at face value and don't pry too deep or you may find what you were looking for..that's not always a good thing..

i've had friends that gave away that they were not women..but i just played it off and sooner or later fell back into taking them at face value..

as far as sl sex..if someone  is hinting to me like they want to..depending on the person..i usually just go silent  or act like i don't understand or totally missed the clue being dropped and just keep on talking like nobody hit on anybody..hopefully them getting the hint that i am not interested in that..

i don't put that i am straight in my profile..because i figure my husband being partnered to me would clarify that..

still once in awhile..someone will drop a hint or two and i'll just go into my usual routine..oh wow did you know truth has a 50% sale going on right now?!!!

 

really ..i think there are a lot more women in sl than people think there are..

what % is lesbian or bi or straight..who knows really?

 i know or knew a lot that were straight out of the friends i hung around at one point..and that was pretty much in sl peak prime years..

 

 

 

 

 

[Melita Magic]

---

Tex Monday wrote:

---

sams Byron wrote:

This is just my personal observation.

I've noticed the various club venues I've visited tend to have a fairly very high ratio of female avatars declaring themselves as bisexual or gay in their profile versus female avatars who do not (and I assume are straight).

On public beach sims, it seems to hover around 50-50. Non-gender specific regions, of course.

I'm curious, what are your observations? Have you found that straight women are a minority versus women with different (or have multiple) preferences at your regular hangout spot?

---

Please remember that a good number of those female avatars are

probably

played by men...some who even live in their parent's basements eating cheetos and drinking diet sodas....:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

---

Oh I totally disagree with you. What a short sighted and oblivious statement.

There's no way those sodas are diet.    LOL

[Tex Monday]

---

Melita Magic wrote:

Oh I totally disagree with you. What a short sighted and oblivious statement.

There's no way those sodas are diet.  

 LOL

---

You are, of course, correct. I should have stated eating cheetos and drinking Red Bulls. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Melita Magic]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

so the "fat, unshaven, sweaty woman in a grubby, dirty vest sitting at the keyboard" is acceptable

---

How you doin'?

 

 

 

...I'm kidding, Phil. But, I couldn't resist.

[Melita Magic]

Aw, come on, that was funny.

Tex: Or liters of soda...which they can also use when empty.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Lucretia Brandenburg wrote:

Aside from men playing Lesbians, and women who say they are Lesbians to avoid being hit on, there are straight women who happen to be Lesbians in SL. Would they ever pursue a Lesbian relationship in RL? Doubtful, many I have met are happily heterosexually married in RL, but SL is a place that can be used as an alternative to RL, and for some, that means straight men who are gay in SL, and straight women who are Lesbians in SL.

---

Marvin gets sooooooooooooooooooooooooo confused sometimes.

---

@ Lucretia: Although I'd probably never pursue a lesbian relationship in RL (those 20 minutes with my grad school roommate don't count), I'll also never again pursue a hetero one. Ten years of marriage was more than enough proof for me that I'd be happier alone than with a fella, even one as wonderful as my ex-husband. Two and a half roller coaster years with a woman in SL was (probably ;-) more than enough proof for me that I'd be happier alone than with a gal.

@Marvin: I've said I pretend to be lesbian in SL and I pretend to be straight in RL. I share your confusion!

[Phil Deakins]

---

Melita Magic wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

so the "fat, unshaven, sweaty woman in a grubby, dirty vest sitting at the keyboard" is acceptable

---

How

you

doin'?

 

 

 

...I'm kidding, Phil. But, I couldn't resist.

---

Suddenly, my image of you took a drastic turn there for a second lol.

[Orca Flotta]

i've had friends that gave away that they were not women..but i just played it off and sooner or later fell back into taking them at face value..

 

Oh yes, what an excellent point. One of my friends is a gorgeous girl ... with a bulge in her panties. She's played by a RL male (d'uh) and totally open about her RL gender and SL trans. Nevertheless all of us are referring to him as "her" since the face and bewb value is so overwhelming in SL.

[Melita Magic]

Hahaha. Yes that was the joke.  

[Kenbro Utu]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

One of my friends is a gorgeous girl ... with a bulge in her panties. She's played by a RL male (d'uh) and totally open about her RL gender and SL trans. Nevertheless all of us are referring to him as "her" since the face and bewb value is so overwhelming in SL.

---

I knew an avatar, or rather an avatar couple, early on in SL who were controlled by a single male in RL.  He would log them in separately, or many times at the same time, and when togethe rthey would interact as a couple.  There were only about 5 of us in the group of friends who knew they were one in the same person, but still they each had different personalities and you could not help but react differently to each accordingly.  It was, however, very odd and weirdly funny to watch the couple "perform" for others who were completely unaware of the ruse.  

 

Edit: Wow, the forum ate all my spaces when it posted... it was almost one big long word.

[Dresden Ceriano]

Lol... I was wondering what language you were trying to write.

...Dres

[Melita Magic]

I remember once a "couple" walked in and began to argue, disrupting a gathering of people. I thought it seemed a bit like a performance, too canned; suddenly one of them said the other one's line. Oops! 

It disappointed me that no one else seemed to notice, or care.

I think this probably happens a fair amount in SL. Also I think a fair amount of 'partners' are the same person, so they won't be hit on, maybe. Or maybe in some 'industries' in SL they think it looks better to have a partner.

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Kenbro Utu wrote:

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

One of my friends is a gorgeous girl ... with a bulge in her panties. She's played by a RL male (d'uh) and totally open about her RL gender and SL trans. Nevertheless all of us are referring to him as "her" since the face and bewb value is so overwhelming in SL.

---

I 

knew 

an 

avatar

,

or 

rather 

an 

avatar 

couple

,

early 

on 

in 

SL 

who 

were 

controlled 

by 

a 

single 

male 

in 

RL

.  

He 

would 

log 

them 

in 

separately

,

or 

many 

times 

at 

the 

same 

time

,

and 

when 

togethe r

they 

would 

interact 

as 

a 

couple

.  

There 

were 

only 

about 

5 

of 

us 

in 

the 

group 

of 

friends 

who 

knew 

they 

were 

one 

in 

the 

same 

person

,

but 

still 

they 

each 

had 

different 

personalities 

and 

you 

could 

not 

help but

 

react 

differently 

to 

each 

accordingly

.  

It 

was

,

however

,

very 

odd 

and 

weirdly 

funny 

to 

watch 

the c

ouple

"

perform

"

for 

others 

who 

were 

completely 

unaware 

of 

the 

ruse

.  

 

Edit: Wow, the forum ate all my spaces when it posted... it was almost one big long word.

---

Years ago on IRC, there was a man/Master in one of the first Gorean channels online.  He was well-respected within the community and held "Ops" in the channel - it's like being a moderator.  He had a "slave."  About a year later it was discovered that it was a woman playing BOTH the "Master" and "slave."  Needless to say the person was banned from all Gorean channels at the time and people were kicking themselves not to have seen thru the ruse but some people are good at manipulation.

[Tex Monday]

---

Kenbro Utu wrote:

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

One of my friends is a gorgeous girl ... with a bulge in her panties. She's played by a RL male (d'uh) and totally open about her RL gender and SL trans. Nevertheless all of us are referring to him as "her" since the face and bewb value is so overwhelming in SL.

---

I 

knew 

an 

avatar

,

or 

rather 

an 

avatar 

couple

,

early 

on 

in 

SL 

who 

were 

controlled 

by 

a 

single 

male 

in 

RL

.  

He 

would 

log 

them 

in 

separately

,

or 

many 

times 

at 

the 

same 

time

,

and 

when 

togethe r

they 

would 

interact 

as 

a 

couple

.  

There 

were 

only 

about 

5 

of 

us 

in 

the 

group 

of 

friends 

who 

knew 

they 

were 

one 

in 

the 

same 

person

,

but 

still 

they 

each 

had 

different 

personalities 

and 

you 

could 

not 

help but

 

react 

differently 

to 

each 

accordingly

.  

It 

was

,

however

,

very 

odd 

and 

weirdly 

funny 

to 

watch 

the c

ouple

"

perform

"

for 

others 

who 

were 

completely 

unaware 

of 

the 

ruse

.  

 

Edit: Wow, the forum ate all my spaces when it posted... it was almost one big long word.

---

I've tried to do that, but sadly, I can only carry on meaningful conversations with myself in RL. :matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Melita Magic]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Years ago on IRC, there was a man/Master in one of the first Gorean channels online.  He was well-respected within the community and held "Ops" in the channel - it's like being a moderator.  He had a "slave."  About a year later it was discovered that it was a woman playing BOTH the "Master" and "slave."  Needless to say the person was banned from all Gorean channels at the time and people were kicking themselves not to have seen thru the ruse but some people are good at manipulation.

---

I find that a bit hilarious. 

I'm willing to bet there is a lottttt of gender role reversal in SL Gor.

 

[sams Byron]

Thanks for the replies.

I was always aware that a few female AVs are male operated but never suspected it would be in the stereotypical range of 90% - that just doesn't sound right I also assumed there were usually more rl women in sl than men so I thought it would balance out eventually.

I never considered that gay/bi users would actually want to roleplay as an opposite sex who is straight for any reason other than as a parody (while straight males have been known to play the opposite sex as a cruel joke sometimes). I was surprised as well to learn there are women who use male AVs for reasons other than building, machinima, or as a showcase model. The options for men here are pretty limited by comparison but then a lot of us don't shop much either so I can't say I fathom the appeal.

For the straight women who are taking on the role of lesbians in sl, would it be fair to say in a world where you can be anything you want, being straight where it is already ubquituous in the real world has fallen somewhat out of fashion for you in sl? Could sexuality in a virtual world become something that, like clothing, you could morph in and out of at your leisure?

Lastly, someone in the thread here mentioned that some women prefer male avatars who are played by other real life women because of the better rp sex. Is this fairly common in SL? That can't be good news for the rest of us if so lol.