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Hellespont Hoorenbeek

Stop buying L$ lets hurt LL!

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I think DutchX / SL Exchange did a very good job marketing their product in SL. I had an account with them as well in my beginning days. But for my needs (exchanging L$ to euros) I just found them too expensive. I could get better deals at Xstreet, and the best deals at Lindex.

But many residents in Dutch community were happy to use DutchX / SL Exchange, and it was promoted to newbies as THE way for Dutch people to buy L$. Easy to use, pay with euros in methods they were already used to. Most did not mind to pay a bit more for this service. And though this exchange could not satisfy me personally as a customer because of their price tag, I do feel sorry for the people running this compagny. What is happening to them now is just horrible. They worked for years to build something up, and from one day to the other their source of income is destroyed. LL should have given them at least a month or three to arrange things for themselves and their customers.

One the other hand, as a trader in virtual concurrency, you should inform yourself about laws that influence your business. When they had follewed the news about their field closely, they could have know for months already about this new law that forces traders in virtual concurrency to register as a MSB with FinCen. 

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Greed is not what motivates me to have several businesses in SL. My rental property pays the tier...no profit. What I do there benefits others far more than it does me in that I offer affordable, beautiful housing at very low cost. There is no where that offers all that I do for what they pay. 

I have a furniture store and I spend as much as I make in creating the stuff. Maybe one day it will make a small profit, but doubtful as again, I offer quality at low prices and low prims.

I don't appreciate anyone calling me or others greedy because we choose to run a business in SL. It is the people who own sims, have businesses that give everyone else places to go and things to do and virtual goods to own. Without the business and sims owners, SL would just be...well nothing. Boycotting LL does nothing to really hurt them, but it does hurt me and all the other people that help make SL what it is.

And as far as calling the people that post here names, well without all of them...this forum would not have the quality of posts that it does, but instead a bunch of silly BS by random people that post once or twice and never heard from again. That would not make a very good forum. I for one appreciate all the regular posters as they are what makes coming here and posting here...worth it.

Instead of boycotting LL, why not help support all the people that make your SL worthwhile?

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First of all, please try and ensure in future you read all of my post. Not just the bit you take exception to.

If you had read it fully, you would see I state - in english - I have 'no beef' with content creators per se who charge  a fair price.  I have spent a lot of money in SL, and quite probably more time inworld than a fair few of the forum cronies who rack up thousands of posts here and presmumably manage to get 48 hours out of a day unlike the rest of us, as they bleatingly maintain they also spend plenty time inworld.

However, greed is here in SL, and contrary to what Michael Douglas said in 'Wall Street' it is anything but good.  The RL western economic system is on the verge of collapse due entirely to 'bankster' greed and their 'supporters' in governments worldwide.

As for calling people names.   Highlighting the omnipresent shills and apologists for LL is - I am sorry to inform you - entirly my right.   I have no problem with people who praise LL where praise is due, but the handful I draw attention to do the opposite. Frequently.

You would like a forum full of them, would you?  Well, good luck with that.  

 

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Azazael Heron wrote:

wel...You already anserwed ourself by saying LL is getting some provision,,that and the the other costs like paying for a CC....or prepaid CC It brings along extra cost end more of a anoying way to get youre Rl money in sl.

So indirectly LL is hurting themselfs,,

You gotta love sl

 

And like i said:  Itrust that payment way i Always did,

I dont trust PayPal.

LL needs to prove 110% that PayPal and cc are safer then the way i did..They cant.

Proven PayPal and cc can be hacked,and are less safe.

I rest my case

Newsflash for you - there is no such thing as an utterly secure website. There is no such thing as an utterly secure transaction site either.

Your largest complaint is that PayPal can be hacked? Welcome to the Internet.

Want total security? Too late - you activated an account with an ISP.

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Azazael Heron wrote:

Stay on topic,

I said NO known issues with Dx.!Period!

This was my largest complaint,?,,,read al i wrote in here dude!

Plenty of reasons.

 

 

This is why i usually avoid forums.

Good reminder again,,,

 

I am staying on topic.

Your issues or lack thereof with your chosen exchange are irrelevant - all exchanges have issues and if you honestly think no fraud has ever occurred, I have a home in Pompeii to sell to you.

You made your largest complaint with PayPal quite clear - and it's been addressed.

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Azazael Heron wrote:

pls read what i put up there!

The point was DutchX gets my pers info,

My answer was no ,cause i do that trough Ideal so DX doesnt have my bankaccnmbr rl name etc

Plus like i said, Never happened,,,no known issues of fraude with DX

Itsal about: is it trustworthy?

Lezen aub wat ik schrijf.

Ps balony? Nah i would rather have Salami!

And the DDOS attacks didnt hack, only put servers down!

 

the DDOS attacks are not the only attacks on ING and ABN Amro, there have been huge phishing attacks so much so that there even warnings on tv about it.

as for giving your rl data, read the iDEAL site: Uw naam en rekeningnummer worden pas aan de webwinkelier verstrekt nadat u de betaling heeft goedgekeurd. Anders dan bij creditcard-betalingen houdt u zo zelf controle over de verstrekking van deze persoonlijke gegevens. http://www.ideal.nl/consument/?s=wat

remember that ideal does not tranfer any money, it is just a way to automate the process of transfering money directly from your bank account to that of DX or webshop

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see - i cant buy lindens no more because the service i used is down now and linden can't sale me lindens - thats all - why don't give Linden Lab the same service like other Sellers? Because they can't - probably because they are not local residents in each contry ... - other seller and buyers of L$ are more flexibel there.


I really have to notice that this change of the ToS was very - VERY bad communicated - now i lost my Plattform because i can't buy Lindens!

Thats really bad!

Why this? If i knew this i had have bought more lindens just i found a solution!


My really nice home! all destroyed! Thats the reality -

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oberon Zuta wrote:

see - i cant buy lindens no more because the service i used is down now and linden can't sale me lindens - thats all - why don't give Linden Lab the same service like other Sellers? Because they can't - probably because they are not local residents in each contry ... - other seller and buyers of L$ are more flexibel there.

 

I really have to notice that this change of the ToS was very - VERY bad communicated - now i lost my Plattform because i can't buy Lindens!

Thats really bad!

Why this? If i knew this i had have bought more lindens just i found a solution!

 

My really nice home! all destroyed! Thats the reality -

im really sorry and sad for you Oberon... as for the other ones who are one after one loosing what they have...

I agree 100 % about the bad communication that LL made about their TOS update... Even today, their TOS are still not really clear.. but well, we know for sure that they have asked to all TPE to shut down on next monday.

But maybe they will change their Lindex system for allowing more pp to buy l$ ? I cant believe that LL wont take in consideration the big ammount of europeans pp that cant get easily a credit card and so wont be able to either pay with CC neither paypal since they ask the paypal is linked to a credit card... It would be a big ammount of money that they would loose...I agree they dont give any clarification about this, but ive read today that someone sent a ticket for complaining and that she got an answer saying that "they said that this was already escalated and they are keen to evolve their service". Maybe we should wait a lil and see what they will decide and bring as improvement for their Lindex ?

Till then maybe you can see if one of your rl close friend who has a CC can create an account just for buying l$ for you and then you give him/her the rl money ? (the ammount bought will be limited first but well, its better than nothing) and the good side of LL is that everything can be rebuild with some mouse clicks...:smileyhappy:

 

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Hellespont Hoorenbeek wrote:

Everybody stop buying and spending L$ in world this is the only way we can wake up Linden Lab and force them in a position to allow 3th party banks like DX Exchange, Virwox and others to continue. Linden Lab is the creator of Second Life, Linden Lab if they continue will also tare it down!

 

People it is time for action!

How about no. I like sl and I am hoping it will flurish again.. I know it wont but maybe if I buy enough stuff it will :P I understand why you are upset. I would be too but that wont make sl go back it might however make it just stop all together. I dont want that to happen untill there is a replacement...and I can transfer my avi.

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Mileva Milev wrote:

about greed:

 

Yes, the first people screaming in forums are those who have a small or big business and know where to post their anger about less income. In Europe we have to pay VAT and when changing over PayPal we have to pay for changing from US Dollar to EUROs ... (perhaps for UK Pounds too, I don't know).

I know SL is virtual and business can end suddenly for any reason. So I can ignore all that greed discussions even though I know, support and understand all the personal reasons. They weight, but they don't explain, or help to understand, the global impact of the new TOS .

 

why not to use PayPal for Linden buy:

 

I am German and can only talk about here: LindeX wants an Einzugsermaechtigung - this means, you give them the rights to take your money whenever and how much they want! Think about it !!!

It happened (not a lot and by accident) that LL wanted some money and the people had to call LL + PayPal + their RL bank to stop that. It is also a big open door for any fraud (for the users/customers, not for LL). So, Germans only do Einzugsermächtigung when they TRUST the other side. And LL just quitted financial trusting with immeditly removing the 3rd exchanges!!!

 

The "greed" and Einzugsermaechtigung are the reasons why most Germans don't want use LindeX and/or to risk any money for "a virtual game play". They wont buy boots, or this funny little dress just for fun when they have to buy Lindens over LindeX. They uploaded money over the 3rd, any time and any amount, without the risky Einzugsermaechtigung. Now they can not and will not buy and we ALL will lose them.

 

think global:

 

Whatever individual reasons are for not buying or selling Lindens over LindeX may be - we don't have to discuss/argue: A lot non-US residents simply CAN NOT USE LindeX! Most of you forget Japanese and ignore the rest of the world. There are a lot around who spontaneously uploaded Lindens through 3rd for an outfit, tip, to buy land or something for their virtual home, spend aid organization, upload new creations ...

 

THIS spontaneously users will SILENTLY vanish the next month. They don't use forums, don't read posts, don't understand English, don't worry about TOS, because they just payed some or a lot money just for FUN in a virtual world.

This will not be the end of SL, but a big slowly lost of users, fun and money for us and LL. And after this month the next will break, home and shop owners who can not pay their rent, empty islands ...

 

Beginning next month the last second life user will know and understand what the new TOS and ban of 3rd means and how many users don't want or can't use LindeX - but then it is too late.

Amethyst Jetaime ‎05-11-2013 04:47 PM

"... Even if LL does expand the payment options, which I sincerely hope they do ..."

"... LL didn't do this to enrich themselves. They would be foolish to do so ..."

Amethyst, why did they not expand LindeX payment options BEFOR banning 3rd? !!!

Why does LL not tell us the TRUTH? It would be better for them to tell the real reasons instead of sit out all rumors and lose any trust.

I think it is mostly Europeans that have been effected by the TPE"s closing.  I honestly haven't seen anyone else from any other part of the world complain about it except one Brazilian who said he can't get a credit card just like there are people in the US who can't either   I think if it effected them that much they'd be in here complaining just as the Euro's are.  Either people from other parts of the world didn't use TPE's a lot or they have figured out a way to use the Lindex.

I don't think it is as easy as you think setting up an exchange that accepts foreign payment methods that also don't do business in the US already.  Foreign payment methods such as the ones I've seen mentioned are not accepted here in the states that I've ever seen, although there may be a few exceptions that I am not aware of.  So I have to assume that to accept them LL would have to conform to more regulations concerning international banking from perhaps not only the US government but ones on the other side of the pond too, which probably takes more than just the couple of months its been since the regulations came out to set up.

As far as what you call Einzugsermaechtigung, all I can say is that I have PIOF and have never given nor have had to give permission to LL to take money from my account whenever they want in any amount they want.  The only time I've heard of anything remotely like this happening, upon investigation it was a case of the people not really understanding that they pay tier in arrears not advance.  They sell their land and think they own no more when they owe one month more.  Or, people had money credited to their account in error and a correction was being made, so it was not their money to begin with, or they stole money and LL took it back.  As usual, people only tell  you the side of the story they want you to hear, not the whole story.

I saw in another thread that someone filed a support ticket about all this and was told LL was "keen to evolve their service" 
so I think hopefully we will see this happen.  However I doubt they will please everyone.

Of the people who say they won't use the Lindex (as opposed to those who really can't) there seems to be a few major reasons

One is they don't think they were charged conversion fees using their old methods (but I think that was just a matter of them being included into the fees they did pay.  I don't foresee that the extra charges LL will incur in taking foreign payment methods will be absorbed by them as they have stopped absorbing the VAT.  I know when I buy things from European web sites or catalogs I ALWAYS have to pay them.

Two was they claim whatever payment method they insist on having to use allows them complete anonymity.  LL won't  be able to accept any payment method that allows the payer to be anonymous because of the anti money laundering and fraud regulations.  So that cuts these methods out.

Third, people say they just don't trust LL.  There is no remedy for this because if they want L's they will have to buy them through the Lindex.  TPE's will never be coming back to SL.

Fourth was that the TPE they were using didn't require a verified payment service account.  I doubt LL will be accepting any payment methods were they are not guaranteed instant payment by a verified account.

Sp even if LL expands the Lindex there are still going to be people that won't be able to use their preferred payment service.  At that point it just comes down to where their priorities lie.

Lastly this is a point to consider.  TPE's had access to the same information about the pending rule changes like everyone else.  It was well publicized.  So why didn't they take the steps necessary to minimize the impact on their customers?  Why didn't they tell you that this might happen?  Frankly they either have very poor business practices, were asleep at the wheel, or decided not to in order to squeeze ever last bit of profit they could out their business before any changes took place.  So I would not trust one of them ever again.

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that will be easy cuz i cant buy them anymore

i am ruined

cant pay my rent cant do nothing

Im from belgium and dont have us dollars to exchange

so this is more than a disaster for me

pls sort this out real quick

i am sure i am not the only one here

thanks for reading this

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i'm really surprised that LL hasn't adjusted for those that cannot buy..

sure they had to make this change..but wow..there are a lot of monies gonna be going out the window if they think the customers are just going to adjust because they are so addicted to this world..

one blog post about the change and all the rest of the news is through customer support?

 

LL can't be a hurricane that hits..then tells us it hit then just goes away and the world rebuilds it's self..

those types of tragedies have human loss in them..

LL is gonna suffer that kind of loss in their numbers as well..

we just don't have the damage report numbers in yet to tell how bad the storm really  was/is..

it's kind of funny how over time companies feel they don't have to drum up business anymore..so much so that they can just  toss some of it right out the door rather than getting on the horn and giving avenues to how those people can adjust to this..

oh you can't do this anymore..see yaaa..hope ya figure it out so you might be able to stick around..

i just don't see them having the interest in this world they used to have ..but then again..that's what other ventures are for i guess..

 

i'll hang around SL until i feel like leaving or they find a way to cut me off i guess..

but i just can't find it in me to find the time to care enough about taking the time to hurt them..

it's more of me using them than them using me type relationship hehehehe

 

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LMAO

Sorry...giggles......snorts....trying to compose myself.....

Nope...can't.....LMAO

I'm sorry, where did your grow up? Your grasp of business is amazing.........NOT.

OK stepping off my Giggle Box.

 

Now those left without a way to purchase Lindens are the real tragedy. If Linden Research has something else in the wings for those who can not utilize PayPal then Now is the time to introduce it.

 

Edited - Yes this is to the OP.

 

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Hoshi Kenin wrote:

...Note the majority of replies againstyour post are by the well known,same old,  tiresome LL shills...

LL Shills? LOL I thought I was on the SL forums...not ATS! :matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

 

 

(Kudos for people who know what ATS is. lol :matte-motes-little-laugh: )

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Azanor wrote:

I dont support OP, everybody can make their own financial decisions, there is no need for a riot. On the other hand do you think we need to support every decision of LL or SL economy because there are disabled or unemployed people out there? Content creators put their product into market, if there is demand they'll make money, if there isn't they'll be forced to look for other means of income regardless of their RL situation. SL economy is not holy grail of anything. Even if not a single more item was created in world, there is enough of everything. Plus nothing decays. Most of us have enough clothes, body parts, vehicle's furniture etc.. Except the new residents who needs to build their inventory, most people keep shopping because of their addiction to consumerism, otherwise nobody needs that 5th car, 10th skirt, and 20th shirt.

As I said, I don't support OP's decision, but I am supporting his rights to boycott. As customers we have got every rights to boycott the companys that don't meet our expectations, or serve our best interest. And stopping to support them financially is the most civil way of doing it. 

I never said no one had the right to boycott if they choose to.  And please point out where I said that we need to support every decision of LL because of disabled or unemployed people.  My issue was that Rii was telling people to get a RL job like it was an easy thing for everyone and those that don't have one are somehow at fault, when for some people it is impossible.

For the record, I don't always agree with what LL does.  However I understand closing down the TPE's was not a matter of choice for them without leaving themselves open to a lot of liability.  So if it had been my decision I would have done the same thing.

My question for you is why are you not mad at the TPE's?  They had access to the same information about the pending regs as everyone else. Why didn't they warn you in advance or take steps to stay in business? Either they manage their business very poorly and were asleep at the wheel or chose not to do anything but continue to squeeze every last bit of profit out of their customers as they could.  Either way they have proven to be inept at best and I wouldn't trust one of them again.

Lastly while you have a right to boycott if you want, it is also my right to choose not to boycott. I have no reason to want to hurt fellow residents or LL over an issue they had little choice in.  Even if LL expands the payment methods and services for the Lindex, they aren't going to accept every single payment method everyone wants them to and some will be left out still.  So no matter what they do, they won't make everyone happy.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


My question for you is why are you not mad at the TPE's?  They had access to the same information about the pending regs as everyone else. Why didn't they warn you in advance or take steps to stay in business? Either they manage their business very poorly and were asleep at the wheel or chose not to do anything but continue to squeeze every last bit of profit out of their customers as they could.  Either way they have proven to be inept at best and I wouldn't trust one of them again.

 

You are right TPE's are not neccesarily the good guys here. They are doing what they think is good for them, and LL is just being LL, while the customers are being squeezed in the middle. The problem of the LL is, and I think thats why most people are angry at them not just in this issue but in many things, they never want to recognize they are not in beta anymore. When they first started SL it was an experimental thing. It was a vision of one person. Nobody had done it before. It was a big risk to take for it's founders, and there wasn't a multi million dollars business around at that time. LL was making many mistakes, and people were keep forgiving them because hey, it was a new era and everybody was in the same boat. But then business started to take off, and they kept taking advantage of this behaviour.

I remember the days  RL world brands, and universities being present in SL, but they were not as patient and forgiving as individual customers are. When they realized LL is acting like a company who run by college kids at somebodys dormitory, and refusing to build a solid business they left. It should have been a wake up call for LL, but No. Instead after 10 years, they are still this company that always expects its customers to take the burden, and forgive the every blunder they make as if this is still somebody's pet project. 

So this is not the issue of regulations , and TPE's. This is about people spending a good money on a product, and never getting the quality of service they expect from a company of this size. Of course posting on the forums wont change anything, but I guess some people feel better when they share their frasturation and we keep talking about it... 

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KarenMichelle Lane wrote:

LMAO

Sorry...giggles......snorts....trying to compose myself.....

Nope...can't.....LMAO

I'm sorry, where did your grow up? Your grasp of business is amazing.........NOT.

OK stepping off my Giggle Box.

 

Now those left without a way to purchase Lindens are the real tragedy. If Linden Research has something else in the wings for those who can not utilize PayPal then Now is the time to introduce it.

 

Are you replying to me or the OP?

You never can tell with these reply buttons hehehe

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Azazael Heron wrote:

Does anybody know WHY LL did this,The exact reason cause there was no info or a headsup beeing spread. Just a new TOS

When i has to do with new US rules( wich i heard rumours about) then we can be crying our heads of but then even LL hands are tied

But point is. Bad communication towards residents. And we stil know not excactly why.!

Gotta love sl.

What a world...........

it seems the more lines of communications they opened up for us all..the less they have been using them and communicating with us..

they gave us the dashboards..

then the blogs would be how communication was goiing to be done..

but the comments became closed off after awhile and it became a one sided conversation..

the feeds were another one..

we had email always..

then there was the popups which i only see used for tuesday wednsday restarts anymore.. 

out of all those ..they use twitter the most lol

heck last year i think we almost went a whole year without a blog post..maybe not that long .hehehe

 

Rodvik started out strong  i thought..but i think he gave too much access to himself using his feed on his profile..

it was nice getting to talk with him in the forums..but that didn't last too long..and really i didn't think it would when all the JLU stuff started to hit him pretty hard..

he got flooded out and locked it off..

then went real quiet lol

 

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Six Igaly wrote:

I do business with LL for over 6 years now, I pay them some money each month, they provide me this great platform. This means, I do business with THEM! Not with any 3rd party party. 

Maybe it is time for all those people that do no other then complain and scream about LL to move on. 

(B)EAT IT!

well said. Wouldn't surprise me if all those complainers (or at least the majority) never spend a dime in SL, just leech on camping chairs, then complain that prices are too high (and now that they can't use a shady 3rd party to get that money out of SL and into their bank accounts).

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Muletta wrote:

Thank you for link, I don't understand all it says, so am I wrong about the changes have been made because of new rules from the Goverment of USA, or have I understood it right?

yes, LL would have been legally responsible for any and all money laundering and other transactions with money gained from criminal enterprises through their systems.

IOW if someone used a one time debit card bought using cash gained from a robbery to buy L$ from say Virwox, LL staff could have been arrested and put on criminal trial for that.

 

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jwenting wrote:

Wouldn't surprise me if all those complainers (or at least the majority) never spend a dime in SL, just leech on camping chairs, then complain that prices are too high (and now that they can't use a shady 3rd party to get that money out of SL and into their bank accounts).


Demonising fellow users usually ends well.

Generalisations are a great way to prove your point.

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Lucretia Brandenburg wrote:

Why would I want to hurt LL? Whether they are complying with new US Federal regulations, trying to protect themselves from fraud, or trying to bring in more of a profit (or any combination thereof), LL is a business, SL is how they make their money. Why shouldn't they change TOS to benefit them? I hope they upgrade the Lindex so that there are more ways to pay for the small number who absolutely cannot use this service. For those who would
rather
not, or
choose
not to use it, if SL is important to them, they can live more cheaply in SL, create their own content, join groups and hunts that offer high quality freebies, seek employment in SL, troll the clubs looking for contests to earn Lindens ... but if using Lindex
is 
an option and they don't
want
to use it, why blame LL?

 Why would anyone want to boycott using currency? Oh yes, I want to lose the land I rent, I want to not be able to purchase things for myself or friends, or to tip  DJs and hosts at events, I want to not have any money to put in a RFL or ACT donation kiosk to support charity efforts that are important to me. Oh yes, and I want to work for free and not have my SL employer pay me. The notion is absurd. LL has a history of taking a "no skin off our noses if you don't like the rules and choose to leave" attitude. I don't see this being much different.

And it also seems that the furor is indeed focused in the forums. Of several dozen Europeans I've spoken to inworld regarding this  none of them have any problems using Lindex, and most were unaware of TPE.

sadly there's a group of people here on the forums who'd love to see SL shut down, if you have to go by their posting habits.

I'd not be surprised if at least some of them are employed by competitors to LL...

 

 

Those people of course want to stop residents buying L$ as that would mean reduced income to LL, both directly and indirectly as those L$ go to store owners and land owners who pay LL real money in tier payments and upload fees.

As a European myself, I've never had trouble using Lindex. Excellent rate, charged directly to my CC which in turn gets the interbank Dollar/Euro rate which is a lot better than doing a USD transfer from my bank to some 3rd party exchange.

I've known about TPEs for a long time, especially the constant problem people were having with most of them getting them to actually transfer the L$ after payment for them, sometimes having to wait days or weeks (and in more than a few cases never getting the L$ at all, when using Lindex I always get my L$ in minutes at most).

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