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Maki Guyot

Why Linden Lab will not get my money anymore.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Malanya wrote:

Trinity this is not directed to you but to the thread. Is Anshex still able to service residents with $L ?

 

I just looked and they are still selling L's.  They don't buy them for RL money though and never did.  However, if LLis serious about closing all exchanges I don't see how they can make an acception for her.

I  don't either no matter how many regions she pays for, but do you think she is able because she "technically" (I say that loosely as I don't know how her site works with $L payouts or purchases) fall under the "person to person" trading so it's not against the TOS, whichever version or the blog statement?

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Malanya wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Malanya wrote:

Trinity this is not directed to you but to the thread. Is Anshex still able to service residents with $L ?

 

I just looked and they are still selling L's.  They don't buy them for RL money though and never did.  However, if LLis serious about closing all exchanges I don't see how they can make an acception for her.

I  don't either no matter how many regions she pays for, but do you think she is able because she "technically" (I say that loosely as I don't know how her site works with $L payouts or purchases) fall under the "person to person" trading so it's not against the TOS, whichever version or the blog statement?

No I don't.  Her exchange is run by her corporation and works like any other except she doesn't do cashouts.  She is probably using all the L's she collects in rent to make even more money from them and avoid having to pay LL cash out fees.  She doesn't show up to pay you the L's that you buy.  The letter sent to exchanges said to remove all scripted objects in world.  She would be using a scripted object to deliver the money.  There is no way around that.

She probably hasn't shut down yet because she is like some of the others.  Still trading based on the 30 day notice provision and trying to get favorable clarification or an exception from LL.  But, if they allow her to continue you will hear a scream from all over the world so loud that you won't need to be logged in to hear it.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Malanya wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Malanya wrote:

Trinity this is not directed to you but to the thread. Is Anshex still able to service residents with $L ?

 

I just looked and they are still selling L's.  They don't buy them for RL money though and never did.  However, if LLis serious about closing all exchanges I don't see how they can make an acception for her.

I  don't either no matter how many regions she pays for, but do you think she is able because she "technically" (I say that loosely as I don't know how her site works with $L payouts or purchases) fall under the "person to person" trading so it's not against the TOS, whichever version or the blog statement?

No I don't.  Her exchange is run by her corporation and works like any other except she doesn't do cashouts.  She is probably using all the L's she collects in rent to make even more money from them and avoid having to pay LL cash out fees.  She doesn't show up to pay you the L's that you buy.  The letter sent to exchanges said to remove all scripted objects in world.  She would be using a scripted object to deliver the money.  There is no way around that.

She probably hasn't shut down yet because she is like some of the others.  Still trading based on the 30 day notice provision and trying to get favorable clarification or an exception from LL. 
But, if they allow her to continue you will hear a scream from all over the world so loud that you won't need to be logged in to hear it.

Ahh.. ok, like I said I have no idea how she does $L transactions. I didn't think about the 30 day notice, wondering why too with the 30 day notice the other exchanges have stopped until further notice since they still had a month. Yes, I am sure the screams would be heard loud and clear without being logged on if she was allowed to continue.

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It looks like LL made an update to their blog regarding 3rd party exchanges. They are not going to be allowed.

 

"When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated Terms of Service. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is not authorized or allowed.

As the official exchange owned and operated by Linden Lab, the LindeX is the best place to buy and sell L$ for use in Second Life. It consistently offers the best rates for both buyers and sellers, and by limiting L$ trading to the exchange we operate, we are better able to protect users against fraudulent activity.

The majority of Second Life users who purchase L$ do so through the Second Life Viewer by clicking on the “Buy L$” button. There will be no change to that function, as these orders are placed directly through the LindeX. Similarly, shopping on Marketplace will not be impacted."

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Updated-Second-Life-Terms-Of-Service/ba-p/1996185

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It stuns me how people can put money INTO such a obvious con game like Second Life.

But not as much as the people defending the con game....

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fantastic, how about LL improves its service to match those of the exchanges then there would be no need for them exist rather than keep the limited slow service you provide but ban the rest or just put all the risk on them and the people using them. im european and prefer not to use CC, wont touch paypal as ive had very bad experiences with them in the past not to mention there reputation. the exchanges provide a wide variety of options to pay and withdraw to and from yet LL dosen't. if your going to do this please shape up and add those to your own

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this is absolute bull**bleep** who want to enrich only without competitors.
they do not hold the user, on the contrary, there will be a huge migration wave. I just want to know who views himself invents such a mental brain carnival.

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No one is defending LL and this is not a con.  Before you make such assumptions you should know what your talking about.

There have been new regulations issued by the US treasury concerning virtual currancy that is basically forcing LL to do this as the regulations would hold them responsible for any illegal activity on the thrid party exchanges since they allow those exchanges to use SL to transmit money and L's.  They are not doing this because they want to.  Why would someone voluntarily take on this kind of liabilty and possible criminal charges?  The new regulations require complete transparancy in the trading of virtual currency and LL can in no way assure this with TPE's.  LL is a US company and must follow US law and treasury regulations or face consequences..

 

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See that it LL don't have to do anything its set up for there likening ,,,you don't wanna use a CC or paypal fine don't,, but don't think LL is going to really care ?  Nope you will have to do it there way or no way.

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Malanya wrote:

It looks like LL made an update to their blog regarding 3rd party exchanges. They are not going to be allowed.

 

"When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated
. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is
not authorized or allowed
.

As the official exchange owned and operated by Linden Lab, the LindeX is the best place to buy and sell L$ for use in Second Life. It consistently offers the best rates for both buyers and sellers, and by limiting L$ trading to the exchange we operate, we are better able to protect users against fraudulent activity.

The majority of Second Life users who purchase L$ do so through the Second Life Viewer by clicking on the “Buy L$” button. There will be no change to that function, as these orders are placed directly through the LindeX. Similarly, shopping on Marketplace will not be impacted."


lol Malanya it has been posted the same day than the new TOS lol this mean 2 days ago. Its not an update to the TOS (a blog post cant do this, TOS have to be updated themselves) but a post to announce that the TOS have been updated.

And this blog post is precisely the problem, since as you see it doenst say the same thing than the TOS. There is a big incoherence between what say the TOS and what say the blog...

I cant believe such incoherence is without purpose, or at least i cant believe that now 2 days ago, LL are not aware of the incoherence and havent clarified especially with the serious consequence such blur can have on SL economy. This is what puzzle me since 2 days.

 

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They also have disabled withdrawals TO Secondlife... I know because I just tried. Which in turn, makes the SLL worth less more even now because I can't spend those SLL... While also, making LL not get thier transaction fee from that merchant should they now use LindeX because that withdrawal is currently blocked.

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I know that the card payment system in Europe is more secure than in the USA. A payment to a TPE in Europe is less likely to be fraudulent than a payment made direct to Linden Lans, simply because it goes through the US system which doesn't use certain checks. For instance, there is an authentication password which the card network asks for to authorize a payment in Europe. The authentication exchanges in the US system do not hook into that.

On what I have seen, the TPEs charge less, in fixed fees and from the spread between Buy and Sell, than the Lindex does. Also the relationship between the L$ amount and the real-currency amount is clear, because they quote prices in other currencies than the USD.

The advantages of LindeX trading that the blog post claims are illusory.

When you figure in exchange costs, a TPE only has to buy or sell USD to cover the net trade in L$. Most transactions will be in their local currency. User A will buy L$, and the money they pay will go to user B who is selling them. And the TPE has to keep records. Their country will have tax systems, and accountants, and laws against money-laundering.

The assertions in the blog post suggest that Linden Labs doesn't quite realise that they are a business with customers outside the USA.

Heck, they might not quite understand that they have customers in Nevada.

 

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On the contrary, it has changed. I used Virwox for money exchange and now when I attempt to do it, it immediately returns my lindens and a message appears saying they are not authorized to exchange. The only way you are permitted to exchange lindens now is through Lindex. All other exchanges are no longer viable.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

No one is defending LL and this is not a con.  Before you make such assumptions you should know what your talking about.

There have been new regulations issued by the US treasury concerning virtual currancy that is basically forcing LL to do this as the regulations would hold them responsible for any illegal activity on the thrid party exchanges since they allow those exchanges to use SL to transmit money and L's.  They are not doing this because they want to.  Why would someone voluntarily take on this kind of liabilty and possible criminal charges?  The new regulations require complete transparancy in the trading of virtual currency and LL can in no way assure this with TPE's.  LL is a US company and must follow US law and treasury regulations or face consequences..

 

Seriously. Those of us who keep informed knew about these new regulations and knew LL would have to take some measures to adjust (without knowing exactly what). This new TOS was no surprise. There is no mystery why it has been introduced. There is no evil conspiracy. 

 

No, really. No evil conspiracy. But if all those who say they are going to quit /close their businesses really did that -- well, I don't think LL would notice.

 

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Malanya wrote:

It looks like LL made an update to their blog regarding 3rd party exchanges. They are not going to be allowed.

 

"When you log in to the Second Life Viewer today, you’ll be asked to accept an updated
. As with any legal document, it’s important to read in its entirety before accepting, but we wanted to highlight one of the changes we’ve made in this update: to better protect Second Life users against fraud, the updated Terms of Service make it clear that trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX, Second Life’s official L$ exchange, is
not authorized or allowed
.

As the official exchange owned and operated by Linden Lab, the LindeX is the best place to buy and sell L$ for use in Second Life. It consistently offers the best rates for both buyers and sellers, and by limiting L$ trading to the exchange we operate, we are better able to protect users against fraudulent activity.

The majority of Second Life users who purchase L$ do so through the Second Life Viewer by clicking on the “Buy L$” button. There will be no change to that function, as these orders are placed directly through the LindeX. Similarly, shopping on Marketplace will not be impacted."


lol Malanya it has been posted the same day than the new TOS lol this mean 2 days ago. Its not an update to the TOS (a blog post cant do this, TOS have to be updated themselves) but a post to announce that the TOS have been updated.

And this blog post is precisely the problem, since as you see it doenst say the same thing than the TOS. There is a big incoherence between what say the TOS and what say the blog...

I cant believe such incoherence is without purpose, or at least i cant believe that now 2 days ago, LL are not aware of the incoherence and havent clarified especially with the serious consequence such blur can have on SL economy. This is what puzzle me since 2 days.

 

I know lol it's worded in cryptic language. I wonder if they are not updating the actually TOS until the 30 days have past since the notice was given. They did say that this will take effect 30 days after notice so updating the TOS now while this is not "actually" in effect is my only thought TOS does not reflect this blog announcement.

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Katarina Edlund wrote:

this is
absolute
bull**bleep**
who want to
enrich
only
without
competitors
.

they
do not hold the
user
,
on the contrary
, there will be
a huge
migration
wave
.
I
just want to know
who
views
himself
invents
such a
mental
brain
carnival
.

It's frustrating in many ways to many people but what it comes down to it's their company, their rules and no matter how we feel we agreed to those rules.

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no your right i dont think they care wether i or anyone else likes it or not and im not expecting them to upgrade there service to match that of the exchanges there killing off, im not going to start shouting this is the end of SL far from it its just another decision and another step that will slowly chip away at SL's population bit by bit

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Malanya wrote:


I know lol it's worded in cryptic language. I wonder if they are not updating the actually TOS until the 30 days have past since the notice was given. They did say that this will take effect 30 days after notice so updating the TOS now while this is not "actually" in effect is my only thought TOS does not reflect this blog announcement.

nooo..They cant ask we to agreed and check a box  to something and reveal it 30 days later lol... the TOS have been updated :

TERMS OF SERVICE

Last Updated and Effective Date: May 7, 2013

But still remains the mystery of the difference between what says the blog and what says TOS lol

The thing about the 30 days, means only that the new TOS will be fully effective pasted this 30 days.

For me TPE or not it wont make any difference bec i dont cash out, i keep my sl incomes withing SL and buy my l$ from lindex... I also think that if law say it, LL needs to be in conformity with law and its normal then...And i find it fully normal, that LL refuse to assume responsabilty for TPE, actually, im surprised they did in the past.

 But if the SL economy is harmed, then everyone will be harmed... merchants but also customers who will loose some of their favorite merchants.

So before any stress or relief, it would be great if that, at least, LL clarify what we can or not do, and explain if "not-authorized" means "not allowed" or "not acredited"... 

However, if it means "not allowed", their TOS are not well writed and any lawyer can turn them in a different meaning in front of court... i suggest to LL to rewrite them as soon as possible lol

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Malanya wrote:


I know lol it's worded in cryptic language. I wonder if they are not updating the actually TOS until the 30 days have past since the notice was given. They did say that this will take effect 30 days after notice so updating the TOS now while this is not "actually" in effect is my only thought TOS does not reflect this blog announcement.

nooo..They cant ask we to agreed and check a box  to something and reveal it 30 days later lol... the TOS have been updated :

TERMS OF SERVICE

Last Updated and Effective Date: May 7, 2013

But still remains the mystery of the difference between what says the blog and what says TOS lol

The thing about the 30 days, means only that the new TOS will be fully effective pasted this 30 days.

For me TPE or not it wont make any difference bec i dont cash out, i keep my sl incomes withing SL and buy my l$ from lindex... I also think that if law say it, LL needs to be in conformity with law and its normal then...And i find it fully normal, that LL refuse to assume responsabilty for TPE, actually, im surprised they did in the past.

 But if the SL economy is harmed, then everyone will be harmed... merchants but also customers who will loose some of their favorite merchants.

So before any stress or relief, it would be great if that, at least, LL clarify what we can or not do, and explain if "not-authorized" means "not allowed" or "not acredited"... 

However, if it means "not allowed", their TOS are not well writed and any lawyer can turn them in a different meaning in front of court... i suggest to LL to rewrite them as soon as possible lol

You're right I guess it doesn't make sense for us to check a box but they did vaguely change the terms and maybe in 30 days there will be another updatel. I only say that because their blog and their TOS words don't match lol. It will affect the sl economy and many mechants, it will affect anyone who relies on these methods.

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If you're not authorized to enter a building, then you can't enter.  If you're not allowed to enter a building, you can't enter.

Seems pretty interchangable to me.

Linden Lab is simply trying to cover its ass and trying to avoid a potential federal investigation.

 

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while I do understand the confusion on the new TOS and I hear the problems that are being raised by our friends in europe...you need to keep in mind that the changes were made for a reason.  I have actually been following issues to do with Bitcoin that I suspect prompted the changes in the TOS along with new regulations that others have mentioned:

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-vs-ben-bernanke-215700245.html

Before panicking and screaming that the world is coming to an end....please...check out the news and see what is going on.

I do agree that this does put us business owners in a pickle when it comes to getting our money in and out of SL....but I think if we stap back and think...we might come up with some solutions that will benefit us rather than being rash and cashing out our chips because of  a change we  nor Linden Labs can control.

PS I have been following this because I have considered my own grid with offering money exchange.  It is good to know the regulations before getting neck deep in it. :matte-motes-asleep-2:

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When i heard about the ban of third party exchanges I was upset first as it is clearly a loss of services. I used Virwox to exchange lindes to euros with a couple of clicks and almost no time loss. Actually it took me one minute for the whole process. Paying a Virwox terminal. Exchanging the Lindens to EUR and then cashing out to pay pal. No waiting for your money that for some reason was "floating" in virtual nirvana. I saw a nice game on sail on Steam...no problem. Needing some EUR for Ebay quickly? No problem. It was safe and nice  and i loved it. Now this is gone. Lindex takes up to 5 days they say but its more likelly to be a minimum of 5 days. And its only processing USD. Linden Lab did close down the third party exchanges and does nothing to improve their own service a bit. Thats how a monopoly works. If customers cant chose you dont need to improve what you got. In my opinion the third party exchanges were competitive exactly because they answered a certain need of services Linden Lab did not provide.

Iam not sure if choking the cash flow is a good idea for a business. But well what do I know.

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Cry Hawker wrote:

When i heard about the ban of third party exchanges I was upset first as it is clearly a loss of services. I used Virwox to exchange lindes to euros with a couple of clicks and almost no time loss. Actually it took me one minute for the whole process. Paying a Virwox terminal. Exchanging the Lindens to EUR and then cashing out to pay pal. No waiting for your money that for some reason was "floating" in virtual nirvana. I saw a nice game on sail on Steam...no problem. Needing some EUR for Ebay quickly? No problem. It was safe and nice  and i loved it. Now this is gone. Lindex takes up to 5 days they say but its more likelly to be a minimum of 5 days. And its only processing USD. Linden Lab did close down the third party exchanges and does nothing to improve their own service a bit. Thats how a monopoly works. If customers cant chose you dont need to improve what you got. In my opinion the third party exchanges were competitive exactly because they answered a certain need of services Linden Lab did not provide.

Iam not sure if choking the cash flow is a good idea for a business. But well what do I know.

Well, I just spent my last 30 EUR on SL that I'll ever be able to.

As stated in the first post; LL is not getting any money anymore from me.

 

The constant changes LL makes to both the server, viewer, and now money flow, makes me more and more frustrated with it and I am getting more and more interested in just leaving SL altogether and skipping off to do something actually FUN with my life.

 

If any Linden Lab employee is reading this; you're pushing your userbase away with your constant changes. You're effectively pushing your product on the road to bankruptcy.

Have fun with it. I'll just sit on the sidelines and watch the ship sink. You clearly don't want my business.

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