Rachael Aldrin Posted May 8, 2013 Author Share Posted May 8, 2013 In my case there was nothing to scroll down to because the ToS were blank. I think that is the issue some other people were having too. I hope the others who were struggling managed to sort it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Judging by the post about German exchanges, and by LL's own blog, it does sound like LL are intent on doing away with 3rd party exchanges, and that they've made a mistake in the new ToS. If that's the case, it occurs to me that LL have decided to keep all the exchange commissions for themselves, very similar to the reason they created the marketplace. I.e. with the marketplace, they realised how much real money was being made in sales, and they were aware of the external services, so they decided that they wanted a share of it and they bought out the external outfits and created the marketplace. Perhaps they have now realised how much real money is going to 3rd parties in exchange commissions, and they've decided to have it all for themselves. If that's the reason for the change, then, for the first time, I'm coming to the conclusion that LL really is having financial difficulties. I put the marketplace down to greed, because there is a lot of money to be made in commissions, but I doubt that there's very much being made by the external exchanges (comparatively speaking), so to hijack that seems so penny-pinching that raises the question about LL and financial difficulties. On the other hand, it could be just what it says on the tin - that they are doing it because of fraud. On reflection, that seems more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xchange4ls Turbo Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Hello everybody, we have a third party exchange for secondlife and are working on this market since 2007. We are a well known exchange and were woking allways in a cooperation with Linden Labs. Yesterday we have received a short unpersonalized email from Linden Labs to remove all our scripts, because our Linden Dollar trading operations are not allowed anymore with a link to the new ToS. The reason, as you already know, is the problem with fraud. From our point of view this reason is not the true one. Yes, we have a lot of fraud in this business, so we were asked in the past to follow special rules of Linden Labs and to use the Risk -Api. In the most cases, all Linden Dollars, which were cashed out through our exchange, where we did not followed the rules, were charged back by Linden Labs. In the last 5 years of our business with Linden Dollar, we had only 1 case, where the avatar had a positive Risk-Api check but his Linden Dollar were stolen and Linden Labs couldn't make a charge back. In all the other cases we had to pay Linden Dollar back to Linden Labs. That was our risk, so we were very careful with our customers and did several checks before cashing out. We could reduce our charge back rates almost to zero. So from our point of view this reason is not the true one. We are very disappointed about the business practice of Linden Labs. We have employees, who are living from our exchange. Now we are trying to get more clarity from Linden Labs. Nobody, also the other exchange, knows how it will go further. At the moment we can only hope, that this is just a misunderstanding of the ToS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 did they said in their mail you cant keep your business without using API-RISK ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xchange4ls Turbo Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 so, I post the email. As you can see they do not even say hello or bye As described on the Second Life blog, the updated Second Life Terms of Service disallow trading of Linden dollars (L$) on exchanges other than the LindeX. As an operator of a third party exchange, you should cease facilitating L$ trades on your exchange immediately to comply with the Terms of Service. Any virtual ‘ATMs’ or scripted objects in Second Life that are connected to your exchange should also be removed immediately. Please be sure to read the complete updated Second Life Terms of Service and take the steps necessary to comply and keep your Second Life account(s) in good standing. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 thanks for posting it. well as usual, they are never clear... The new TOS says this : 5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged. Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars. Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX. the title itself aknowledge the fact other exchange systems are exiting... further : they say : "Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk." they say anywhere its firmly forbiden, or pp will be banned for this or whatever else... so yes, i think you should ask them to be more clear... Like they hope they will tell us in a more clear way too.... "not allowed" or "not authorized" have several meanings possible while "not permited" has only one.... Is it so hard for supposed native english speakers like them to use a clear language and the right words ? im stunned... but not really surprised btw... After reading several times this article from the TOS, all i see its that they states they are no more liable for purchase on other exchange systems and they stop the api-risk... i dont see more and i dont see its firmly forbiden to purchase elswhere than lindex, neither that other systems may exist... the mail you recieved tells now another story...So they have to explain and tell us what is the reality ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherry Erin Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 What the terms "authorized" and "allowed" mean to me is that external exchanges are not authorized to operate nor are residents allowed to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Again, "not allowed" is not used in the TOS but in the blog... The blog doesnt make rules.. TOS does... i dont see anywhere in the TOS something saying in this article that using TP exchange system is not allowed, but only that LL is not liable to them and that they dont endorse or otherwise garantee the legitimity of the linden dollars transfers offered on them... what is really different... Anywhere they say that if someone buy l$ from a TP exchange system this person will have sanction.. it would be great if someone with Lawyer knowledge could explain better to us and decipher this for us...or if LL themselves would be more clear indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypatia Meili Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Are there any other significant changes? In plain everyday English please. Most of us can't read legalese, well we can read it but understanding it is something else. And I figure I am probably bit above average in following it, still it confuses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Of Interest: Linden Lab’s New ToS, the Bank Secrecy Act, and You Application of FinCEN's Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies And yes, they've done a poor job again of communicating and explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amie Kaestner Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I wonder if this was prompted by the emergence of Bitcoin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everest Piek Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 to me it looks like another joker at the labs like the one we had in 2008 on the sl-kid avatars...the actual tos do not say anything remotely according to the expression on the blog: quote: "5.3 There are other exchanges that are operated by third parties on which Linden dollars are exchanged. Third party exchanges are not authorized by Linden Lab and Buying or Selling Linden dollars on third party exchanges are not authorized transactions. Third party exchanges are wholly distinct from both the LindeX exchange and Linden Lab and they have no affiliation with Linden Lab. We do not endorse or otherwise guarantee the legitimacy of the Linden dollar transfers offered on them, and we are not liable for purchases of such Linden dollars. Buying or Selling Linden dollars anywhere other than the LindeX is done so solely at your own risk. If you Buy Linden dollars that are traced to unauthorized credit card activity or other fraudulent activity, we will recoup these Linden dollars from your Account. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX." sooo...not authorized does in no case mean not allowed...they do not encourage ppl to swap L$. but they dont forbid the exchanges. thats a HUGE difference! ev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Of Interest: Linden Lab’s New ToS, the Bank Secrecy Act, and You Application of FinCEN's Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies And yes, they've done a poor job again of communicating and explaining. well even more than this Perie ! they are giving contradictory infos on a crucial topic ! i just can t believe noone has noticed in LL offices that the blog and the TOS doesnt say the same thing and that they havent already fixed considering the serious consequences that such mess can have.... i had already a poor opinion about their competence in managing, but here we are meeting a new level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Of Interest: Linden Lab’s New ToS, the Bank Secrecy Act, and You Application of FinCEN's Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies And yes, they've done a poor job again of communicating and explaining. well even more than this Perie ! they are giving contradictory infos on a crucial topic ! i just can t believe noone has noticed in LL offices that the blog and the TOS doesnt say the same thing and that they havent already fixed considering the serious consequences that such mess can have.... i had already a poor opinion about their competence in managing, but here we are meeting a new level First off, a reminder: 1. CHANGES TO THIS AGREEMENT This Agreement may be changed by Linden Lab effective immediately by notifying you as provided in Section 13.4 below; provided that Material Changes will become effective thirty (30) days after such notification. By continuing to access or use Second Life after the effective date of any such change, you agree to be bound by the modified Terms of Service. A "Material Change" is a change to this Agreement which reduces your contractual rights or increases your responsibilities under this Agreement in a significant manner. Now, in thinking this through actually thee may not be any confusion here. It would be helpful if LL posted examples but it would also be risky to do so. Three types of transactions: Person to Person Person to Business (or visa versa). Business to Business. Who (or what) is actually being restricted from operating are the Buisnesses (Exchange Services). The TOS applies to Individuals. The Businesses are being handled separately by LL, apparently via E Mail. I could buy Lindens from you, send you money via Pay Pal for instance and you transfer the Lindens to me. No TOS Violation. That is Person to Person. But it does on the surface look confusing. It would be interesting to see how EBay responds to this, if they will disallow selling of Linden Dollars on EBay. It really does get interesting. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER AND MY GUESS IS AS GOOD OR AS BAD AS ANYONE ELSE'S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeclaw Denfu Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 http://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Filing-an-abuse-report/ta-p/700065#Section_.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 I know an estate owner who runs a little exchange as well. He has contacted his account manager for more clarifaction. He was told : "We will shut down any resident for a violation of the terms of service if we discover they are trading L$ outside of the LindeX. The only authorized exchange is the LindeX." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 well so this make things more clear indeed. but why it isnt in the TOS ? shouldnt the low force them to write this clearly in the TOS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azanor Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Again, "not allowed" is not used in the TOS but in the blog... The blog doesnt make rules.. TOS does... i dont see anywhere in the TOS something saying in this article that using TP exchange system is not allowed, but only that LL is not liable to them and that they dont endorse or otherwise garantee the legitimity of the linden dollars transfers offered on them... what is really different... Anywhere they say that if someone buy l$ from a TP exchange system this person will have sanction.. it would be great if someone with Lawyer knowledge could explain better to us and decipher this for us...or if LL themselves would be more clear indeed. It doesnt matter what TOS says that much .LL canceled the RISK API. Which means if a third party exchange stays in business after this point they'll be taking a big risk. They have got no way of determining the source of the L$ they are exchanging without the Risk Api. Now they can be accused of fraud anytime, and if their trading account gets canceled they find themselves in red pretty fast. No legit business would take that kind of risk. Regardless of how the TOS is interpreted there wont be any legitimate third party exchanges left around trading L$ pretty soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Azanor wrote: Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Again, "not allowed" is not used in the TOS but in the blog... The blog doesnt make rules.. TOS does... i dont see anywhere in the TOS something saying in this article that using TP exchange system is not allowed, but only that LL is not liable to them and that they dont endorse or otherwise garantee the legitimity of the linden dollars transfers offered on them... what is really different... Anywhere they say that if someone buy l$ from a TP exchange system this person will have sanction.. it would be great if someone with Lawyer knowledge could explain better to us and decipher this for us...or if LL themselves would be more clear indeed. It doesnt matter what TOS says that much .LL canceled the RISK API. Which means if a third party exchange stays in business after this point they'll be taking a big risk. They have got no way of determining the source of the L$ they are exchanging without the Risk Api. Now they can be accused of fraud anytime, and if their trading account gets canceled they find themselves in red pretty fast. No legit business would take that kind of risk. Regardless of how the TOS is interpreted there wont be any legitimate third party exchanges left around trading L$ pretty soon. yes and this is the pervert side of what they are doing here , indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xchange4ls Turbo Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 the next step will be, all big designer will be offered a contract and nobody else will be alowed to create content anymore. It's time to leave Secondlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 xchange4ls Turbo wrote: the next step will be, all big designer will be offered a contract and nobody else will be alowed to create content anymore. It's time to leave Secondlife That's just sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everest Piek Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 you may call it sour grapes, i call it greed driving out everyone making a small dime in sl. they started it by pushing marketplace as first location to buy stuff and therefore leaving mall owners with empty malls, now they are pushing it further by forcing you to, if ever, cash out via lindex&paypal. i for my behalf have decided to stop all my businesses soon, if i'll be forced like that, because i dont find it funny if i cash out 5 eur and have to pay another 1 or 2 eur on fees. greed will be the downfall of secondlife and LL. ev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Yes, LL decided to cash in on sales - hence the marketplace. That was greed. In another post I suggested that they may now have decided to get those commissions that 3rd party exchanges get, which would also be greed. However, it does seem much more likely that other reasons have caused it. But the post of yours that I replied to was just sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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