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DD is nicer.....but ??


HisaDrug
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HisaDrug wrote:

I was asking about DD lol and somehow ended up talking about script permissions which I'm fully aware of. I just misunderstood the previous reply. I was mentioning how DD allows us to see the contents, not the boxes/packages and their own permissions. I was talking about the actual products inside the boxes or folders. 

My question was very simple. I just wanted to know why people still prefer boxes rather than folders. But thank you for your honest opinions.   

The two topics, are related, you opened with both in the first post. DD does let you see the contents, yes, but it does NOT let you see the actual permissions. Which is why people are discussing it, it's relevant to your original post.. This line, is why people are talking about permissions..

"Sorry to open the thread with the ultimatum, but I honestly think DD is more convenient for the fact that we can take a peek at the contents and their permissions, no unpleasant surprises in what we buy"

Quite often, a lot more often t han we realize, there are still surprises. The contents tab does not always, or even usually, show the actual permissions of all contents.

But there are at least a couple other threads about boxes vs folders. If you want to know why people prefer one over the other, that's a good place to look. It might help better explain.

 

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I prefer boxes as a customer, especially for copy items.  I extract one item (or set) from the box and then store it safely.  On a similar thread in general a couple of people responded that they like folders but then create a box to put the copy in. *facepalm*

*Edit - Typo

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Lasher Oh wrote:

You know I must be  an odd bod but in the year or so since  DD came around I have never once looked the contents pane and I do quite a bit shopping. It doesn't even register in my head that I can inspect the contents. I don't really care how my stuff arrives so long as I get it. Personally I prefer boxes  and always will. I feel folders delivered direct are lazy and boring but then I'm old school I like to rezz and get surprises and enjoy seeing that comforting  items 'coming in too fast 'message that reassures me that all is well in our wonky world.


Ditto to this entire post.  (I had no idea one could look at contents in the MP with DD either.)

Let's hear it for Old School!!!!

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Perrie Juran wrote:

For items that are copy/mod I prefer boxes.  This is how I store my back ups and it reduces inventory clutter immensely.  I am thinking primarily outfits / clothing items.  I've got some outfits that with all the options can have 20 associated items.  It adds up fast.  I also have living room and bedroom suites that are composed of many objects.  Again, it adds up fast.

The only really big objection to boxes is people needing to find a place to rez them and this is easily solved with freely available 'wear and touch to unpack' scripts.

And what I find interesting is that this didn't seem to be a hot topic years ago when boxing for Xstreet aka the MP was a given.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

For items that are copy/mod I prefer boxes.  This is how I store my back ups and it reduces inventory clutter immensely.  I am thinking primarily outfits / clothing items.  I've got some outfits that with all the options can have 20 associated items.  It adds up fast.  I also have living room and bedroom suites that are composed of many objects.  Again, it adds up fast.

The only really big objection to boxes is people needing to find a place to rez them and this is easily solved with freely available 'wear and touch to unpack' scripts.

And what I find interesting is that this didn't seem to be a hot topic years ago when boxing for Xstreet aka the MP was a given.

If you think about it, who is hyping folders?  And why?

Way back in the days of Malls and In World shopping stores provided rezzing zones with clear written instructions on the walls.

Actually learning to rez and unpack was a valuable part of the learning experience in navigating SL.

I meet year old Ava's now who have never created a prim and don't know how to.  Maybe they don't need to know and are happy spending their money or having everything handed to them on a silver platter.  I don't know but it runs contrary in my thinking to "Your World, Your Imagination."

Learning to do these things was like a "rite of passage."

 

baby food.jpg

 

convenient does not always equal better

 

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Actually No. I mentioned the contents concerning the actual package-free products with permissions---considering DD is box free--- and someone suddenly brought up a new twist about pseudo-permissions that come with packaging, which is related but off my topic.  

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The thing is I started SL when DD was a newer option. I got used to the system and I'm quite comfortable with DD. It doesn't confuse me as much as far as how it works. But those oldbies in SL who are loyal customers through those many years might think differently when it comes to shopping. So I just wanted to know which way people would prefer. 

For me as a customer, boxes are fine, too. But there are frequent surprises that I didn't expect. For instance, the description said 5 alpha layers and it's labelled with DD but the content is a box. So no way to see if there are 5 layers. Sometimes it doesn't and the seller wouldn't even answer. Such minor issues like this wouldn't bother me in a great way, but since I'm used to DD, it aggravates me the 5th time it happens.

I know people don't check contents as much because I still get people who complain about no-mod even though contents tab indicate their permissions directly.   

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HisaDrug wrote:

Actually No. I mentioned the contents concerning the actual package-free products with permissions---considering DD is box free--- and someone suddenly brought up a new twist about pseudo-permissions that come with packaging, which is related but off my topic.  

Tari is correct.  You stated in the original post "but I honestly think DD is more convenient for the fact that we can take a peek at the contents and their permissions"

So my question is, if you peek at an object that is called "Dress" and you see the permissions of the object in the DD contents list as "no modify", please tell me beyond doubt what the permissions on the object "Dress" actually are?

Practical example, please tell me what the permissions on the item "Dress" is in this test listing https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Dress/4830925

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I've never seen this "dress" product throughout my entire MP experience. If I was aware of this I woulda mentioned it though. I said DD is more convenient for the fact that people can look what's inside. If a seller hides his/her product in this "Dress" package, what does convenient DD have to do with anything. 

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Did you open the listing link I showed?  That's a single prim, nothing is hidden, it's a live Direct Delivery object, unboxed not packaged, question is, what are the permissions of the object itself?

My statement and that of others is that you CANNOT determine what the permissions are of the contents which is what your original assertion claimed.

If anything it's a barrier.  For example i've just put some other things up as unboxed but now people see the listing which claims "copy modify" yet they see the object as "copy" so which is it?

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That's what I don't understand here. All my objects are clear. If it's modifiable, it's modifiable. It shows as modifiable in contents tab. You just said it's a live object. Nothing is hidden so why there are differences on the listing? I've never seen anything like that before unfortunately. 

I've seen the link. It's got no permission. And would people buy such a product with no indication of permissions really. 

I get what you're trying to say Sassy. We can't reply on DD entirely because obviously permissions lie to you. But like I said, DD opens this option for people to see what the product is all about. I was just talking about it, because I like seeing things in contents before I make my purchase, so I assume others might find it helpful as well whether or not it's decieving sometimes. Permission talk was an example how things are so open on DD freed from boxes. Just a simple example. 

 

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Because as Tari and myself have explained, it's because the Object has a script inside that is no modify.  Just the same as when you view something in inventory.

Neither inventory view, nor DD can show the actual permissions accurately but only show the collapsed, most restrictive permissions and the problem is that because the permissions view is not accurate, it can be just as offputting to a purchaser who is left with questions as to the actual permissions.

It's not a significant plus at all really.

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What he is trying to say, oh great and powerful primary clone :matte-motes-wink-tongue:, if most items in folders show their perms in the contents tab. Like THIS. If they are boxed you have to rely on what the merchant says the perms are. Hopefully, they get it right.

I suppose i should jump in the alligator pit now that i have finished my chores..

gator-on-white_design.png

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I know, I know, i'm just countering it by saying that the contents listing still fails because I list a product with a no mod script and it shows in that content listing as "copy" only yet the object is "copy/mod" so the customer STILL has to rely on the permissions as listed.

For some items, it's just no better and possibly worse since people may think the listing permissions are inaccurate and take only the content permissions as "truth" when they're inaccurate.

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The occurrence of getting something with permissions other than advertised is rare for me.  Anytime its happened a note to the merchant fixes it with a new copy with the correct perms.  This can also happen with in world purchases too and it has happened to me about the same rate as on MP.  A lot of merchants use network vendors now days and if you look at the edit content of the sales picture all you see is the vending script.

Bottom line is you have to rely on the merchants information but can't tell for sure until you actually have the item in hand or rezzed.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The occurrence of getting something with permissions other than advertised is rare for me.  Anytime its happened a note to the merchant fixes it with a new copy with the correct perms.  This can also happen with in world purchases too and it has happened to me about the same rate as on MP.  A lot of merchants use network vendors now days and if you look at the edit content of the sales picture all you see is the vending script.

Bottom line is you have to rely on the merchants information but can't tell for sure until you actually have the item in hand or rezzed.

It's not a matter of getting things with perms other than advertised. It's a matter of the MP not being able to distinguish all of the permissions an item has. Which can vary and are very much product dependant. Whether boxed, or in a folder, customers need to rely on what the merchant has listed as the permissions.

Maybe this will explain it better. I'm not really sure if I can make any more sense out of it, or out of what I am saying anyway, lol . I may be doing a terrible job at it.  If I make a bouncy ball that is both copy and modify, I will list it as both copy and modify. I will also state it in the listing description. If, the script inside my ball is no mod, I will make certain to list that in the description as well. Something like "ball is modify, however the script inside is not", or some such description. However, if you were to look at the contents tab of my bouncy ball(foldered, not packaged) you would see the contents tab telling you it's copy/no mod. That's not really the case. The ball is mod, even though the MP is telling you it's not.

It's not rare at all. I see it a lot. I've got products that do it too. Some of my mod/copy items have something in them that is not mod, and will make the contents tab reflect that. Even though both the boxes I checked when listing for perms and my description quite clearly tell a customer what the permissions are. In that case, the content tab is a bit of a fibber. A content(script, nc, animation etc) in an item being no mod, does not make the product itself no mod. It just makes it appear no mod(both in inventory and the content tab on MP). Some people do believe being able to see the perms in the content tab is a huge plus for DD. But it's not really because it can't (yet?) accurately inform us of all the permissions. At best, it makes a good guesstimate. I do honestly hope at some point it can accurately relate the proper info. I'm not even sure it's possible, just hope it is.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

For items that are copy/mod I prefer boxes.  This is how I store my back ups and it reduces inventory clutter immensely.  I am thinking primarily outfits / clothing items.  I've got some outfits that with all the options can have 20 associated items.  It adds up fast.  I also have living room and bedroom suites that are composed of many objects.  Again, it adds up fast.

The only really big objection to boxes is people needing to find a place to rez them and this is easily solved with freely available 'wear and touch to unpack' scripts.

And what I find interesting is that this didn't seem to be a hot topic years ago when boxing for Xstreet aka the MP was a given.

If you think about it, who is hyping folders?  And why?

Way back in the days of Malls and In World shopping stores provided rezzing zones with clear written instructions on the walls.

Actually learning to rez and unpack was a valuable part of the learning experience in navigating SL.

I meet year old Ava's now who have never created a prim and don't know how to.  Maybe they don't need to know and are happy spending their money or having everything handed to them on a silver platter.  I don't know but it runs contrary in my thinking to "Your World, Your Imagination."

Learning to do these things was like a "rite of passage."

 

baby food.jpg

 

convenient does not always equal better

 

Although older established merchants are also hyping folders, you do make a good point on the "simplicity" angle.  Analogies from MMORPGs to SL are sometimes not the best but I witnessed somethng similar when I played EverQuest years ago.

As time went on (I played EQ continuously for 7 years, so this example covers a number of years) new players to EQ complained that it was "too hard."  SoE decided to dumb down the game a bit.  Using just one example: When I first began playing EQ, about 6 months after it began, if my avatar died everything stayed on the "corpse" (all clothing, weapons, loot, coin, etc.) while the "ghost avatar" was tp'd back to wherever their last binding spot was - without all these items.  In EQ an AV has to eat and drink so the poor ghost AV was immediately hungry  & thirsty.  To regain one's AV that had all the goodies on it one had to physically go back to that AV and physically "loot it."  As a newbie this could be an issue because a lot of the starter areas were in forests and everything looked alike.  Thus the catch phrase "Has anyone seen my corpse?" use to ring out through newbie zones.  As one reached higher levels, dying was still a pain.  In addition to loss of experience, by this time one could be farrrrrrrrrr away from their bind point and getting back to the corpse without getting killed...again...was time-consuming at best and tricky at worst.  Generally one had to find one of the two porting classes and pay them for a quicker journey back to their corpse.

Fast-forward to the present.  If one's AV dies in EQ now they still go back to their bind point, but many players bind to the guild building (forget the official name) with all possessions intact. It's not even really necessary to go back to the corpse at all since nothing was lost....except experience.  If a player wants to regain the experience there is a handy-dandy service in the guild hall area - NPCs that can "summon" the corpse to there at which point the player can easily find a rezzing class player (since this is also the main "meeting point" to hang out) to "resurrect" the corpse.  In the same general area of this building is an area with "portals" to all major zones/cities in the game so having to find a kind teleporting player is a thing of the past.

This is just one of many, many examples that have made EQ "easier," but, as you said, took away some of the rites of passage...and a LOT of the fun and challenge.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The occurrence of getting something with permissions other than advertised is rare for me.  Anytime its happened a note to the merchant fixes it with a new copy with the correct perms.  This can also happen with in world purchases too and it has happened to me about the same rate as on MP.  A lot of merchants use network vendors now days and if you look at the edit content of the sales picture all you see is the vending script.

Bottom line is you have to rely on the merchants information but can't tell for sure until you actually have the item in hand or rezzed.

Totally agree.  Wanted to add - I sell a number of scripted items that are either mod/copy or mod/trans.  I have had some customers contact me saying that I stated on my MP add that the item was, for example, mod/copy, but it is only copy and they want a modifiable version.  Of course there is a notecard with each of my items including instructions, permissions, and why an item may "look" like it does not have mod perms in an inventory but apparently many people don't read those.  Some of these customers are not newbies, either.  I feel like I learned this stuff early on in my SL but, then again, I also jumped right into taking a lot of new resident type classes.

 

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