Gender related question?

[VRprofessor]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Responding to your questions:

1. NC State

2. Women and Gender studies

3. No, but I will be presenting my data to my professor

4. This isn't an experiment, its just gathering information

 

To everyone else, thanks for the responses, please keep them coming and I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this post.

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Thank you.   Your answer to #4 is flat out incorrect.  See: http://research.ncsu.edu/sparcs/compliance/irb/ for correct information.  ALL research involving human subjects requires institutional review.  Surveys have a lower threshold for approval than experiments, but all require institutional review.

Furthermore it appears that your institution requires taking/passing the CITI training course before undertaking research. 

RE #3 I hope your professor gives you the scolding you deserve.  Students should not be conducting research without faculty supervision.  Please see your professor for further instructions before you attempt to gather more information from human subjects.

[AnonymousPoster2]

Questions for people who do gender bend

What is your reason for gender bending?

Because Female avatars are just Sexy.  And besides I like being a Half Breed  Neko/Elf/Human/Fur its very sexy being the mix.  :3

And if you think you know who I am then yes its likely meh.

What is the reaction that you get when you tell people your real gender is the opposite of your virtual gender?

Really dont care.

Voice or they are not a Female.

Either way why bring RL to SL Enjoy the Game Have Fun !

When you play a new game do you automatically do it without thinking?

No I just Prefer Female Avatars.

 

Question for everyone.

How do you think the playing experiences differ between playing as a male or female avatar?

To me it really doesn't change the experience unless you want to talk about Sexists, or RolePlay wise.

If so then it does change a bit playing RP, unless of course you roll a FUTA, or Femboy or something between the lines of both sexes then yes it can be different experiences otherwise I just enjoy the simulation/Game.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I can answer all of your questions with one acronym...

DILLIGAF?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

[Reallycuriousgeorge]

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects. It is well within the rights of posters to simply refuse to answer the questions. Additionally the link you provided makes the CITI training seem optional not mandatory. More importantly, a detailed proposal for this project was presented to the professor beforehand; and approval was granted without any additional training. I have faith that if this process was somehow unethical or against university policy I would have been asked to make appropriate changes or obtain additional training. Thank you for your concern.

 

Again, thanks to all who responded, you have provided useful feedback.

[Perrie Juran]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

More importantly, a detailed proposal for this project was presented to the professor beforehand; and approval was granted without any additional training.

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First off, this appears to contradict what you stated above:

"3. No, but I will be presenting my data to my professor"

Secondly, if your Professor accepted your use of the phrase "gender-bending," I'd find a new professor.  Again, the term demeans and marginalizes bi-gendered individuals who are only being true to their own nature. 

Yes I'm being tough on this point, but it is a good one to consider.

[Senobia Xenga]

 

Why do you think that people want to play as their opposite gender on an online game?

 

On the one hand, I can see the attraction where a RL man might wanna see how well he cleans up as a girl and how a RL woman might wanna know what it's like to have a **bleep**. (Ew) Beyond that - when you get into the sex bit - I can't understand it. Being that the majority of gender benders in SL are RL men to SL women who are usually lesbians, I'll use that as my example - why would a RL man go to allllllllllll the trouble of becoming a SL woman just to have sex with women? *head tilt*

 

How do you think people respond to players who are not the gender they play as? How would you respond?

I think people are very receptive to them - especially RL men who play SL men. For some reason, when it comes to 'shemales' in SL (the kind that are outwardly female, but have a **bleep**), because it has breasts overrides the fact that it also has a **bleep**, which makes it totally not gay and safe for their masculine egos.

My opinion is - it's your SL, be what you wanna be. That said, I'd never be 'involved' with a SL man that I knew was a RL woman and would be totally revolted if I ever found out I'd been duped.

 

Do you think people who gender bend are forth coming or do they wait to be asked?

I think most of them are pretty open about it in their profiles. And the ones who aren't, it's pretty obvious sometimes. For example, their account name will be James Smith and they will have a female avatar with a tag over their head that says "Jamie".

 

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[Reallycuriousgeorge]

You are correct; my statements do seem to contradict one another. This is an error in communication on my part; when he first asked the question I thought he was asking in the technical sense. This study is a project for a class and not a master’s thesis or an independent undergraduate study; so there is technically no faculty research supervisor overseeing my project. However, my professor did read and approve my proposal; which means she essentially acted as a faculty supervisor without the official title.

 

Additionally, the term “gender-bending” wasn’t a phrase that I originally crafted. It is a coined phrase used to describe the phenomenon where people portray themselves as the opposite of their physical sex in an online community. The phrase has been used both by my professor and in the literature I have read while doing background research for this project. I do not think the term is meant to be used in an offensive or demeaning way.

However, I admittedly do not actively participate in online communities and have no idea whether the term comes across as offensive in these social contexts. If it does, I apologize; it is not my intention to offend anyone. I realize that the phrase also has problems; as it can come across as odd to transgendered, or inter-sexed individuals. On this note, however; I encourage you, or anyone else who may have ideas or suggestions of how to improve this dilemma to post about it. I understand your tough stance and absolutely encourage discussion on this issue.

[Melita Magic]

So it is a thesis not really a survey.

One reason I replied to your topic is that it is a topic, in the forums, discussing Second Life. That's what this forum was designed for, in my opinion. (And also real life topics.)

Had you required that people go outside the forum to discuss personal matters, I would've either ignored it or objected to it, depending how sleazy I thought the come-on might be.

If you are basically writing an article about Second Life and wished to discuss aspects of it in the forums, that is okay by me.

The issue of how you phrase things is very relevant for a writer, which, at least for that class, you are. It could also add another dimension to your article or thesis, so I'd ponder what Perrie said seriously.

[Melita Magic]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

On this note, however; I encourage you, or anyone else who may have ideas or suggestions of how to improve this dilemma to post about it. I understand your tough stance and absolutely encourage discussion on this issue.

---

I like your attitude.

And after all, discussion is part of this forum's title.

How about something like "alternate gender expression?"

I'm sure others will have better suggestions.

[Celestiall Nightfire]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Questions for people who don’t gender bend

Why do you think that people want to play as their opposite gender on an online game?

Hell, if I know.  I don't care or think about it. 

How do you think people respond to players who are not the gender they play as? How would you respond?

Hell, if I know.  I don't care or think about it. 

Do you think people who gender bend are forth coming or do they wait to be asked?

 

Hell, if I know.  I don't care or think about it. 

 

Questions for people who do gender bend

What is your reason for gender bending?

What is the reaction that you get when you tell people your real gender is the opposite of your virtual gender?

When you play a new game do you automatically do it without thinking?

 

 

Question for everyone.

How do you think the playing experiences differ between playing as a male or female avatar?

When you "play" as a female, people hit on you and want to have sex with you.   Oh, wait, that happens to those playing as male too...    Hmm, I have no idea.   But, I sure hope my tax dollars aren't paying for financial aid for your classes, as I see this line of study as a waste of money. 

 

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[Kelli May]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

...

 

Additionally, the term “gender-bending” wasn’t a phrase that I originally crafted.

It is a coined phrase used to describe the phenomenon where people portray themselves as the opposite of their physical sex in an online community.

The phrase has been used both by my professor and in the literature I have read while doing background research for this project. I do not think the term is meant to be used in an offensive or demeaning way.

However, I admittedly do not actively participate in online communities and have no idea whether the term comes across as offensive in these social contexts. If it does, I apologize; it is not my intention to offend anyone. I realize that the phrase also has problems; as it can come across as odd to transgendered, or inter-sexed individuals. On this note, however; I encourage you, or anyone else who may have ideas or suggestions of how to improve this dilemma to post about it. I understand your tough stance and absolutely encourage discussion on this issue.

---

The term gender-bender predates online communities by several decades, as the briefest of online searches will show.  The free online dictionary dates it it 1975-80. It was frequently used during the 1980s to describe pop stars like Boy George. It could well go back further still.

Terminology in the transgender community is a minefield for the unwary. A lot of terms are used freely between transgender people that we won't tolerate from outsiders... not unlike the famous 'n-word privilege'. You have a respnosibility to be aware of the connatations of a term before you use it, especially in an academic context. Something less reliant on context, like 'opposite gender role' or 'cross-gender player', would be more appropriate.

For me the term is harmless enough (even quaint, as I remember it from tabloid headlines of the 80s), but as any researcher should know, small samples are unreliable! I'm glad you can see where we're coming from and are prepared to work around the problem.

[VRprofessor]

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

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That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

[Zenephobe]

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

---

 

That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

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No, genius, that is common sense. As long as it does not violate the Community Guidelines a person is free to ask any question they want to on the forums. As has been pointed out, responses are voluntary.

Nowhere in your profile or the link in your signature do you give any credentials as to your professor status, nor do you need to. However, your constant harassment of students on these forums has become tiresome, you have no right to behave as though you are somehow these individuals' professor just because you chose that as a screen name.

Even if you are a professor, you still cannot claim that right.

If you are so concerned about the validity of a student's approach to their research, why don't you, as an educator, contact their school yourself? Please post the results of such conversations, as I am sure they will be well worth a laugh.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Zenephobe wrote:

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

---

 

That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

---

No, genius, that is common sense. As long as it does not violate the Community Guidelines a person is free to ask any question they want to on the forums. As has been pointed out, responses are voluntary.

Nowhere in your profile or the link in your signature do you give any credentials as to your professor status, nor do you need to. However, your constant harassment of students on these forums has become tiresome, you have no right to behave as though you are somehow these individuals' professor just because you chose that as a screen name.

Even if you are a professor, you still cannot claim that right.

If you are so concerned about the validity of a student's approach to their research, why don't you, as an educator, contact their school yourself? Please post the results of such conversations, as I am sure they will be well worth a laugh.

---

you know what is really harassing? The constant barrage of "surveys" from students who want to have the residents of Second Life do their work for them.

I want to know how it is that all of these "students" have been assigned a thesis paper on SL. I highly doubt there are all that many Professors that study Sl or even know what it is. Why aren't there hundreds of "surveys" on the WoW forums pages? Why is it only SL that gets the students? Shouldn't WoW get even more, seeing as they have more players online at any given moment?

[Syo Emerald]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Zenephobe wrote:

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

---

 

That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

---

No, genius, that is common sense. As long as it does not violate the Community Guidelines a person is free to ask any question they want to on the forums. As has been pointed out, responses are voluntary.

Nowhere in your profile or the link in your signature do you give any credentials as to your professor status, nor do you need to. However, your constant harassment of students on these forums has become tiresome, you have no right to behave as though you are somehow these individuals' professor just because you chose that as a screen name.

Even if you are a professor, you still cannot claim that right.

If you are so concerned about the validity of a student's approach to their research, why don't you, as an educator, contact their school yourself? Please post the results of such conversations, as I am sure they will be well worth a laugh.

---

you know what is really harassing? The constant barrage of "surveys" from students who want to have the residents of Second Life do their work for them.

I want to know how it is that all of these "students" have been assigned a thesis paper on SL. I highly doubt there are all that many Professors that study Sl or even know what it is. Why aren't there hundreds of "surveys" on the

WoW forums pages

? Why is it only SL that gets the students? Shouldn't WoW get even more, seeing as they have more players online at any given moment?

---

To write on the WoW Forums you need an actual paid account (testaccounts are limited to supportforumparts). Also the WoW forums get moderated more than this one here. Its like the spam we use to get every week here...there isn't any spam in the WoW forum too.

Also SL can be used for both: economical surveys and the usual "you don't have a real life/you are mental ill" surveys.

[VRprofessor]

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Zenephobe wrote:

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

---

 

That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

---

No, genius, that is common sense. As long as it does not violate the Community Guidelines a person is free to ask any question they want to on the forums. As has been pointed out, responses are voluntary.

Nowhere in your profile or the link in your signature do you give any credentials as to your professor status, nor do you need to. However, your constant harassment of students on these forums has become tiresome, you have no right to behave as though you are somehow these individuals' professor just because you chose that as a screen name.

Even if you are a professor, you still cannot claim that right.

If you are so concerned about the validity of a student's approach to their research, why don't you, as an educator, contact their school yourself? Please post the results of such conversations, as I am sure they will be well worth a laugh.

---

The LL terms of service are not the same as federal requirements for the protection of human subjects.  Common sense says that you should follow federal requirements for the conduct of research.

 The only issue I raise with student research is the failure to meet those basic requirements.  I say nothing about the research posted that appears to be following those requirements.  

All of us have some responsibility to assure that students make the most of their education. 

 

[VRprofessor]

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Zenephobe wrote:

---

VRprofessor wrote:

---

Reallycuriousgeorge wrote:

Asking questions on a message board doesn’t infringe on the rights or welfare of human subjects.

---

 

That is a decision for the IRB.  You should go talk to them.

 

---

 

If you are so concerned about the validity of a student's approach to their research, why don't you, as an educator, contact their school yourself? Please post the results of such conversations, as I am sure they will be well worth a laugh.

---

This is a fair question.  

If I contact the student's school I have two choices.  

First, I can ask a fairly generic question and receive an equally generic answer--an answer along the lines of "the student should file a review request with the IRB."    I am already telling the student this, but, perhaps, the same answer from their local office might have some additional weight?

Second, I can make the question specific to the research being conducted--such as the rersearch in the current thread.  Having done that I have effectively registered a formal complaint about possible violation of federal policy that will require the school to investigate and take action.  While I fully expect the action against the student would be no more than a "slap on the wrist" I see no reason to put students through a formal inquiry by their institution.  

Quite simply, what you see as harrassement I see as giving the student ample warning in an effort to save them from potential problems and discomfort.  

In fairness to your position, it is unlikely that anyone following these threads feels like turning students in to their institutions--I certainly don't.  If there is not complaint the students will never get in trouble for their failure to follow procedure and will live the rest of their lives blissfully unaware that they have done anything wrong.  

http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/humansubjects/guidance/45cfr46.html provides the basic U.S. federal requirements for research with human subjects.  It is not easily seen, but IRBs are given broad authority to assure the federal government that all research conducted at instutitions recieving federal dollars is in compliance. 

So, even if I am a random bum on the street I am familiar enough with procedure to know that students need IRB oversight in order to conduct research.   I also know that anyone failing to follow procedure puts themselves at risk of institutional sanctions.  

[VRprofessor]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I want to know how it is that all of these "students" have been assigned a thesis paper on SL. I highly doubt there are all that many Professors that study Sl or even know what it is. Why aren't there hundreds of "surveys" on the

WoW forums pages

? Why is it only SL that gets the students? Shouldn't WoW get even more, seeing as they have more players online at any given moment?

---

I have a couple of reasons for all of these surveys:

1)  In recent years there has been a push to involve more students in research.   A noble goal, but a goal that is an "unfunded mandate" at its core.  As long as the student is interested in the research project the faculty member is motivated to allow it without much  thought, especially when they have 10 or 15 or more students all needing to conduct research.

2) a failure on the part of lots of people resulting in students who don't know how to use a library.  Students are used to just asking their questions on message boards or searching Google.  

3) lack of planning.  These are most common at the end of the semester because students have failed to plan ahead and are desperate to get a paper in by some deadline in the very near future.  They slap together a survey, hope to get 50 or 60 respondents, and impress their professor with their last ditch effort.  Sadly this works often enough that students are reinforced for it.   

These are certainly not the only reasons, but they are some.  

And I should mention that there are examples of people doing good research on/about/in SL.  Not all research efforts are a waste of time and bandwidth.   But rarely (never?) are these projects the result of a quick survey.  The ones that I am aware of take several months, at a minimum, for data collection.  

[Madelaine McMasters]

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I want to know how it is that all of these "students" have been assigned a thesis paper on SL. I highly doubt there are all that many Professors that study Sl or even know what it is. Why aren't there hundreds of "surveys" on the

WoW forums pages

? Why is it only SL that gets the students? Shouldn't WoW get even more, seeing as they have more players online at any given moment?

---

I have a couple of reasons for all of these surveys:

1)  In recent years there has been a push to involve more students in research.   A noble goal, but a goal that is an "unfunded mandate" at its core.  As long as the student is interested in the research project the faculty member is motivated to allow it without much  thought, especially when they have 10 or 15 or more students all needing to conduct research.

2) a failure on the part of lots of people resulting in students who don't know how to use a library.  Students are used to just asking their questions on message boards or searching Google.  

3) lack of planning.  These are most common at the end of the semester because students have failed to plan ahead and are desperate to get a paper in by some deadline in the very near future.  They slap together a survey, hope to get 50 or 60 respondents, and impress their professor with their last ditch effort.  Sadly this works often enough that students are reinforced for it.   

These are certainly not the only reasons, but they are some.  

And I should mention that there are examples of people doing good research on/about/in SL.  Not all research efforts are a waste of time and bandwidth.   But rarely (never?) are these projects the result of a quick survey.  The ones that I am aware of take several months, at a minimum, for data collection.  

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My biggest complaint about the "research" I see conducted on us here is the terribly low quality of the questions. Granted, as an insider I can see what the questions miss, but it goes well beyond that. For instance, in this particular survey we had the following question:

"Question for everyone. How do you think the playing experiences differ between playing as a male or female avatar?"

If this question was truly intended for "everyone", I'm not sure what value the answers would have. The OP is effectively asking people who may have NO experience with something to describe that experience. Where I come from, we call that nonsense.

I've no problem with exposing students to the IRB process, but I suppose I'm worried about universities expending IRB resources on research that apparently hasn't been reviewed for efficacy. Is wasting resources to insure ethics... ethical?

[Perrie Juran]

 

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I want to know how it is that all of these "students" have been assigned a thesis paper on SL. I highly doubt there are all that many Professors that study Sl or even know what it is. Why aren't there hundreds of "surveys" on the

WoW forums pages

? Why is it only SL that gets the students? Shouldn't WoW get even more, seeing as they have more players online at any given moment?

---

I have a couple of reasons for all of these surveys:

1)  In recent years there has been a push to involve more students in research.   A noble goal, but a goal that is an "unfunded mandate" at its core.  As long as the student is interested in the research project the faculty member is motivated to allow it without much  thought, especially when they have 10 or 15 or more students all needing to conduct research.

2) a failure on the part of lots of people resulting in students who don't know how to use a library.  Students are used to just asking their questions on message boards or searching Google.  

3) lack of planning.  These are most common at the end of the semester because students have failed to plan ahead and are desperate to get a paper in by some deadline in the very near future.  They slap together a survey, hope to get 50 or 60 respondents, and impress their professor with their last ditch effort.  Sadly this works often enough that students are reinforced for it.   

These are certainly not the only reasons, but they are some.  

And I should mention that there are examples of people doing good research on/about/in SL.  Not all research efforts are a waste of time and bandwidth.   But rarely (never?) are these projects the result of a quick survey.  The ones that I am aware of take several months, at a minimum, for data collection.  

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Doing research on the Internet, that is, using it as your Library, is an art form in itself.  There is so much information available but learning how to find it takes some work.  Google is too convenient.  It can be nice for finding a quick answer if you want to bake a cake, but for detailed information, generally speaking you are not going to find it there.  Also, most people do not undertsand how Google filters the results it gives you.

Personally speaking I prefer Wikipedia as a launching point when I want to look at a subject in more detail because Wikipedia requires citation and it is those citations that I want to look at.  So it becomes my 'card catalogue' on a topic.  But even then I do not consider it an 'end all.'

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Personally speaking I prefer Wikipedia as a launching point when I want to look at a subject in more detail because Wikipedia requires citation and it is those citations that I want to look at.  So it becomes my 'card catalogue' on a topic.  But even then I do not consider it an 'end all.'

---

Given the increasing use the potentially unverified Internet by everybody, I'm not sure there is an "end all". That's okay though... there never was.

That said, one can hope (and I do) that, with patience and perseverence, one can make splendid use of the rough and tumble. If the student's professors won't critique their research methods, they'll have to rely on us!

;-)

ETA: Your observation about Google's tailored search results is important. Google is turning search into a "yes man". Those fellas are seductive... and dangerous.

[VRprofessor]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

I've no problem with exposing students to the IRB process, but I suppose I'm worried about universities expending IRB resources on research that apparently hasn't been reviewed for efficacy. Is wasting resources to insure ethics... ethical?

---

An interesting question.  Some argue that the IRB should evaluate both the ethics and potential efficacy of research. 

I prefer closer faculty supervision for the efficacy side of the question, but situations like you describe strength the argument for those who want to broaden the IRB's responsibilities.  

FWIW--the typical student survey would be "exempt" from full review.  A single staff member would look it over, decide there was nothing particularly threatening, and approve the study to go forward.  Pretty minimal use of IRB resources.  

[VRprofessor]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Personally speaking I prefer Wikipedia as a launching point when I want to look at a subject in more detail because Wikipedia requires citation and it is those citations that I want to look at.  So it becomes my 'card catalogue' on a topic.  But even then I do not consider it an 'end all.'

---

Given the increasing use the potentially unverified Internet by

everybody

, I'm not sure there is an "end all". That's okay though... there never was.

<snip>

ETA: Your observation about Google's tailored search results is important. Google is turning search into a "yes man". Those fellas are seductive... and dangerous.

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Am I allowed to agree with people?  Hope so.

You gotta start somewhere and more often than not Wiki is a reasonable starting point.  

[Madelaine McMasters]

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VRprofessor wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Personally speaking I prefer Wikipedia as a launching point when I want to look at a subject in more detail because Wikipedia requires citation and it is those citations that I want to look at.  So it becomes my 'card catalogue' on a topic.  But even then I do not consider it an 'end all.'

---

Given the increasing use the potentially unverified Internet by

everybody

, I'm not sure there is an "end all". That's okay though... there never was.

<snip>

ETA: Your observation about Google's tailored search results is important. Google is turning search into a "yes man". Those fellas are seductive... and dangerous.

---

Am I allowed to agree with people?  Hope so.

You gotta start somewhere and more often than not Wiki is a reasonable starting point.  

---

I love Wikipedia, so I think we're all in agreement. The point I'm flailing to make is that critical thinking continues to be important. I don't know if it's more important than ever before, but it's certainly no less important.

When I read that 27% of the US respondents say in a survey that they thought the Mayan Apocalypse was real, I'm skeptical no matter how I parse it. I've no reason to believe the survey was any better thought out than anyone's supposed belief in the wisdom of the Mayans.