Needing some moral guidance, or rather some guidance..

[Iris Qissentell]

Oh Sephina Call him out on it, why should you  be Banned or critiziied for his wrong doings..... that is totally unfair  . I sussted you bring it out in the open before any of your other friends get ripped of by him, and they looked at you knowing you knew of his  cheating  behaveior and turn it around on you.... as ppl always seem to do they like to look for someone to blame and it usellay isn't that one that really did that wrong deed to begin with...... Watch your back girlfriend and Stand up fro your self. Call the Cheat a Cheat..... Thank you.....!!

:womanmad:

[Sephina Frostbite]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

There is always SLU if you feel like naming and shaming ..

They let you do it there..

---

I never do feel like naming nor shaming which is why I didn't. I am always respectful even if I am being ripped off. I wasn't rude nor did I say who it was. Please don't turn it around on me. Thank you.

---

Oo just people offering help you disrespect? I believe I said

IF

You

FEEL

like it..

 

I wasn't turning it around on you.Don't put so much into the words name and shame.It's only meaning that you are allowed to say the name of the person or place you have a conflict with..

You won't get  an easy pass at SLU to just drop in then say their name  and everyone buy  your story at face value..

You still have to prove yourself.. Otherwise you get ate up..

I  was only showing you another SL forum with a bit more freedom with a large following as another channel to discuss what happened..

Because talking about it here is just blowing smoke without the fire..

They happen to deal with a lot of things like this..without the restrictions that the SL forums have.They deal with a lot of copybot and mesh theft and other things that can't be posted here..

and they  happen to actually be a help..

Please don't twist  my meaning around..K?

I don't use disrespectful ways to get results.. But I won't be a victim  when I don't have to be either..

And  never in my life will I respect a thief.Especially when they are ripping me off..

That's just silly..

In the future I'll save my advice for people that are actually looking for help..

 

Also..

Don't ever use a post of mine.Especially when I go out of my way and post up to help.To launch some holy martyr meme at my expense..

You will do nothing but lose respect..

Only a couple of things push my B!tch button.And that is one of them..

Hence the tone of this whole post..

Next time at least check out the information before you jump to conclusions..

 

---

I don't know where you words of hate are coming from as I did not attack you nor was I using it as a holier then thou post. I actually do have proof of everything. If you meant to give me advice then I apologize but I felt attacked. I am sorry if I was wrong. I also meant no harsh tone however I can see how both our posts could be misconstrued as snarky. All I wanted to point out is Im not here to bash but to come one here getting peoples words of advice. As I said if I misunderstood you I apologize.

---

[Sephina Frostbite]

I don't expect my money back although he has promised me on Monday it will be returned. I understand buyer beware and I understand being Sh*t out of luck. It was for the safety of other people what my concern was. To watch others be taken advantage of it what bothered me. This post is not a whinefest. I know better then to make such a posting. It is rather to get opinions on what would you do if you see someone who has wronged you about to wrong others. That is all. I apologize if anyone misunderstood me. I am not here to make enemies or have people pity me. I am sorry if it came across as such. 

[Pamela Galli]

---

Nuhai Ling wrote:

I am glad you can get deposits from your clients and it sounds like you have built a solid reputation, BUT I still advise to never, ever, ever pre-pay for SL work. Although a buyer could refuse the creator's work, if it is completed per the contract it is extremely doubtful they would not buy the item. 

---

The key point is that I do have a solid reputation. What is highly unlikely is that I would take money for work and not complete it as ordered.  As always, it is best to buy from those with solid reputations. 

Although it is far from highly unlikely someone I never heard of would order work -- in my case, more like modifications -- and then not pay, I only take orders from people who are already good customers of long standing. IOW, mutual trust is already well established. However, I never do full perm work, so it's not exactly the same situation, as people are not paying for my time, and I do not charge more for the modified item than the regular one.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

Nuhai Ling wrote:

I am glad you can get deposits from your clients and it sounds like you have built a solid reputation, BUT I still advise to never, ever, ever pre-pay for SL work. Although a buyer could refuse the creator's work, if it is completed per the contract it is extremely doubtful they would not buy the item. The "risk" is always on the buyer just as in real life. The only way contract work should be done is to have the builder make the product and then offer the full-perm final version for sale.

FYI, when I do custom work it is always with two conditions. The first is that I will supply the full-perm product by using the in-world sales function once it is accepted by the buyer. Second, I do not sell or offer copies of custom work I made for clients. They paid me to make their product so they also gain exclusive rights to it. The caveat is that if they back out at the last minute - and again, I have never had that happen - then I have the right to sell it as I see fit.

Remember... buyer beware! It will keep you happy all your life!!!!

---

I really disagree with this.  There are more people than you think that will refuse to pay for work you have put a lot of time into.  I am not talking about dissatisfied customers.  Most of the ones I have had problems with you never hear from again even after trying to contact them repeatedly.  The only others I've had do this try to get you to lower your price drastically figuring you will because it is better to get something than nothing. 

I charge based on the permissions they want and if they want it exclusive.  I charge a lot more for full perm work than work that is either mod and copy or transfer, if I agree to do it full perm at all.  I am not going to make something just so someone else can make a profit on it without charging accordingly. If someone wants the item for personal use only they can save a lot of money this way.

I have never taken a job that I have failed to deliver on or that the customer is not thrilled with.  If someone didn't like it then I would work with them until they are satisfied.

The risk is to both buyer and creator so it should be shared.  Particularly because there is no guarantee that you will make your money back by selling it to someone else or on MP, if it is even something that is sellable.  Unless someone is a long term client who has established a relationship of trust with me, then I require a deposit for any custom work. 

If you are a hobbyist and don't care about losing money, fine; don't require one.  But when you make your RL living in SL, you can't afford to spend a time on something and not get paid for it.  Most professional creators charge at ;least a deposit. Would you work a RL job on the condition that if your boss doesn't want your work after you do it you don't get paid?

[Lexi Zelin]

I didnt read everyone elses comments on this but personally I say YES Warn people!! There are so many scams when it comes to custom work that I rarely even bother with it. I'm a creator so I'm on the other side but I've heard so many stories about the person requesting the work not paying the other half after the work is done that's why I do a demo system with customers but anywaaays if a "creator" is screwing over customers then they do NOT deserve the right to be considered a creator. PERIOD. that's just my 2 cents..

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

There is always SLU if you feel like naming and shaming ..

They let you do it there..

---

I never do feel like naming nor shaming which is why I didn't. I am always respectful even if I am being ripped off. I wasn't rude nor did I say who it was. Please don't turn it around on me. Thank you.

---

Oo just people offering help you disrespect? I believe I said

IF

You

FEEL

like it..

 

I wasn't turning it around on you.Don't put so much into the words name and shame.It's only meaning that you are allowed to say the name of the person or place you have a conflict with..

You won't get  an easy pass at SLU to just drop in then say their name  and everyone buy  your story at face value..

You still have to prove yourself.. Otherwise you get ate up..

I  was only showing you another SL forum with a bit more freedom with a large following as another channel to discuss what happened..

Because talking about it here is just blowing smoke without the fire..

They happen to deal with a lot of things like this..without the restrictions that the SL forums have.They deal with a lot of copybot and mesh theft and other things that can't be posted here..

and they  happen to actually be a help..

Please don't twist  my meaning around..K?

I don't use disrespectful ways to get results.. But I won't be a victim  when I don't have to be either..

And  never in my life will I respect a thief.Especially when they are ripping me off..

That's just silly..

In the future I'll save my advice for people that are actually looking for help..

 

Also..

Don't ever use a post of mine.Especially when I go out of my way and post up to help.To launch some holy martyr meme at my expense..

You will do nothing but lose respect..

Only a couple of things push my B!tch button.And that is one of them..

Hence the tone of this whole post..

Next time at least check out the information before you jump to conclusions..

 

---

I don't know where you words of hate are coming from as I did not attack you nor was I using it as a holier then thou post. I actually do have proof of everything. If you meant to give me advice then I apologize but I felt attacked. I am sorry if I was wrong. I also meant no harsh tone however I can see how both our posts could be misconstrued as snarky. All I wanted to point out is Im not here to bash but to come one here getting peoples words of advice. As I said if I misunderstood you I apologize.

---

---

they were not words of hate..just me defending myself was all..while still giving you advice about SLU..

i've never in my life came into a help thread and attacked anyone..not unless they were trying to look for ways to hurt others or find a way to take freedoms away from people in sl..still i don't look at that as attacking but defending someone..

that or when i feel they are being rude when asking for help or advice..

the words "name and shame" is what may have made my post sound harsh..but that's the phrase commonly used..even LL uses it..

it was no more than saying..

"There is always SLU if you feel like leveling the playing field or defending yourself on better ground ..

They let you do it there"

that is not an attack on you..that is showing you a place that would let you stand up against a thief or someone taking advantage of you..

because trying to do it here is like pulling your own teeth..i've seen people meeting dead ends here since 2006..

i have a lot of those helpful things on redial and burnt into my brain..because it's all that can be done or said..

things like..

make a ticket or you can't make a ticket or LL won't get involved..live and learn ..it's an expensive lesson..you will know better next time..

if you have ever heard the stories  of red zone or quickware or greenzone or the SL justice league or even curio and a big reason curio is back.. and  many more fights for SL resident safety and rights and freedoms..

you would know why i gave you the search referrence for SLU..

a lot of those fights were fought over there and in the groups that spawned from there..

 

 SL forums leave a lot of people in your situation as nothing more than feeling more of a victum than before they got here..

because your hands are tied and you can't even tell your whole story with the details..

a lot of it is..nope can't do anything..you are on your own..LL won't touch it..just hope this person gets a heart and gives you mercey and they give you this back ot that back..

that is not just frustrating to those that come here and post for help..

it's frustrating for those of us that have been here for years having to give the bad news..

 

here is the thing..

if this guy gives you your money back on monday..and you are all done with him after that..

he's just gonna turn around and do what he did to you on tuesday to someone else..

then possibly some day someone else will come in here and be telling us the same thing..

because this guy ripped them off..

and people will be telling them. the same things they told you..

 

 i'll be telling them..you can always go to SLU..only i'll change the last part from "name and shame" to defend yourself on level ground.

.just to make sure someone doesn't misunderstand me next time..:smileywink:

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

---

The risk is to both buyer

and

creator so it should be shared.  Particularly because there is no guarantee that you will make your money back by selling it to someone else or on MP, if it is even something that is sellable.  Unless someone is a long term client who has established a relationship of trust with me, then I require a deposit for any custom work. 

---

QFT. It's all about mitigating risk for both parties. There are special cases where custom work has value to the creator if the buyer reneges; if, for example, the creator can simply sell the customized product. At least in my world, that's exceptionally rare, but for basic building, I suppose it's plausible.

Trust earned through a long-time business relationship is another way of mitigating risk. I have to say, however, that it was a breach of just this sort of trust that caused me to forever quit creating content for L$s, having invested much time and effort in a set of scripts for a long-time client who disappeared from SL once payment came due. As is often the case with complex scripts, they were very specialized and entailed intellectual property of multiple third parties, so there was no possibility of recouping the loss.

One thing that I've often thought could help would be a third-party escrow service that would hold in trust the works-in-progress (usually full-perm) and payments according to the principal parties' contracts. That escrow service would need a reputation beyond reproach, which means among other things that it could only take on contracts with very specific terms about acceptance and payment, and arbitration conditions for disputes.

[Ceka Cianci]

ya custom work will wear you out..

for me it was case by case situation..

the most i ever asked for up front was half now half on completion..

 

otherwise it was in payments along the way..

being at a certain point at a certain time and this much would be due on this date..

 

they seen progress along the way..and i was paid partial on that day we decided..

give or take a dayor two for changes they may want a long the way..

i never really had a problem getting paid doing things like that..

i just got wore out on doing custom work..because people would want changes for free..

 

i gave in on one build..that's the last time i built anything for anyone for money again..

i lost my butt on it. which really that wasn't the big thing..

it just sucked the creativity or joy i got out of making things..

 

now if i ever do make anything and someone likes it..i just give them a copy..

i get a lot less IM's giving a gift than i do giving a works hehehehe

 

i used the payment system me and my family use in our RL businesses in here... they worked really well for both sides i felt.. =)

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

 i'll be telling them..you can always go to SLU..only i'll change the last part from "name and shame" to defend yourself on level ground.

.just to make sure someone doesn't misunderstand me next time..:smileywink:

---

The phrase "name and shame" gets a bad rap; I would suppose that's because it's such an easy thing for someone with nefarious intent to abuse.  That sentiment is amplified here because of the simple fact that LL doesn't want to deal with it and I can't say that I blame them for that... I imagine the cost in manpower alone would be huge.  As long as they can get away with letting their users screw each other over, they will... though it does get frustrating seeing it happen over and over again.

It's not surprising that some would internalize this and, believing that even thinking of naming and shaming someone would make them a bad person, feel they have to defend themselves against the mere suggestion of their doing it... even though nothing could be further from the truth.

...Dres

[Pamela Galli]

Yes, nothing wrong with naming and shaming per se, although here in the official LL forum it is not appropriate to give people a place to trash merchants or sim owners by name, because as we see more often than not, we don't hear the whole story. This thread was a general warning, tho, and did not name names, so entirely appropriate. 

 

Now, on that "other forum", which has a much larger audience, there is no moderation of these kinds of posts, and claims are thoroughly investigated. People who get named and deserve being shamed, get shamed. However, if the complainer is a liar and/or crybaby, he winds up getting shamed. And when someone gets shamed over there, it is brutal! 

[Dresden Ceriano]

True, if you're going to call someone out over there, you need to have your ducks in a row... otherwise, you're gonna get barbequed.

...Dres *likes a good barbeque every now and then*

[Sephina Frostbite]

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol. Thanks for the heads up on SLU. In all my sl years I have never heard of it. 

I see good things with that but I also see the bad side. People lie or tendoverexaggeratesoImalittleafraidtocheckitout, peoplecanbesovicious.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol.

---

If it came down to a brawl between you and Ceka, can I join in please?

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Dresden Ceriano wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

 i'll be telling them..you can always go to SLU..only i'll change the last part from "name and shame" to defend yourself on level ground.

.just to make sure someone doesn't misunderstand me next time..:smileywink:

---

The phrase "name and shame" gets a bad rap; I would suppose that's because it's such an easy thing for someone with nefarious intent to abuse.  That sentiment is amplified here because of the simple fact that LL doesn't want to deal with it and I can't say that I blame them for that... I imagine the cost in manpower alone would be huge.  As long as they can get away with letting their users screw each other over, they will... though it does get frustrating seeing it happen over and over again.

It's not surprising that some would internalize this and, believing that even thinking of naming and shaming someone would make them a bad person, feel they have to defend themselves against the mere suggestion of their doing it... even though nothing could be further from the truth.

...Dres

---

ya i agree..

it just sounds harsh with the word shame in there..like nailing someone to the cross or something hehehe

it's kind of like involentary manslaughter!!

sounds like someone was forced to tie someone down and cut them up in tiny little pieces and throw them everywhere..hehehehe

some things just sound worse than they are is all..

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Now, on that "other forum", which has a much larger audience, there is no moderation of these kinds of posts, and claims are thoroughly investigated. People who get named and deserve being shamed, get shamed. However, if the complainer is a liar and/or crybaby, he winds up getting shamed. And when someone gets shamed over there, it is brutal! 

---

ya that crowd over there..you would have to be pretty slick to pull one over on them lol

if you go there without proof..

well lets just say..it's gonna back fire in a big way..

those people have resources everywhere lol

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol. Thanks for the heads up on SLU. In all my sl years I have never heard of it. 

I see good things with that but I also see the bad side. People lie or tend

over

exaggerate

so

Im

a

little

afraid

to

check

it

out

,

people

can

be

so

vicious

.

---

i don't wanna fight with anyone hehehe

and i know you are a good person from what i have seen in the forums..

text can really cause some misunderstandings..because we can't hear how things are beign said..

i'm just glad we are ok is all =)

 

also over there..people will try to lie or come in with silly stuff ..

they get eaten alive..

it's a tough crowd..but a very effective one..

that's where a lot of the old old forum goers went when these forums changed to this new platform..

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol.

---

If it came down to a brawl between you and Ceka, can I join in please?

---

you would be down and out and miss the whole thing..because you would be first..

we would double team you :matte-motes-evil-invert:

 

hehehehe

[Tex Monday]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol.

---

If it came down to a brawl between you and Ceka, can I join in please?

---

you would be down and out and miss the whole thing..because you would be first..

we would double team you :matte-motes-evil-invert:

 

hehehehe

---

*Grabs a large bowl of popcorn and a folding chair*

LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!

:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Tamara Artis]

Hey this is great thread!, and there should be a place where we could share experiences and maybe even name those individuals who think its ok to play with people just bc well they can lol.

Anyway, I wona share my little story...

Few days before Christmas last year a guy came in my studio asking to get a family photo at promo price, and he needed it finished in 2 hours. But before doing anything he insisted that I upload few examples of the backgrounds I plan to use. That was LOL NO. Ok, he understands and after showing him my flickr he books few more photos. So I teleport him to the studio, and he teleported his wife, a kid and one more avi. Then we waited for half hour for all of them to choose clothes, for each photo. 

I finished family photo in less then 2 hours, showed them, all fine, they ask can they get it now (because it was last min to send greeting pics to friends), and pay all when they get all. So we do it like that.

Few days later I contact both of them saying photos are finished and displayed in-world for them to take a look (not on website bc some clients are scared to open links they don't know and some have weird troubles because they simply can't open the website). The girl replied, she likes them but her bf is not able to teleport atm so she will take snapshots of the pics and send to him, and then he will contact me to say is he satisfied with photos.

After some time she asks me can I come to the studio? I teleport and there is some other guy, saying he can't believe that I screwed them, and what sh*** I made? I ask whats wrong and they say everything is wrong because the girl can't see colors very well (she stayed quiet). So I let him say what he needs to say, finish his insulting urge lol, refund their deposit, mute nad bann the whole family. 

That was 4 months ago and the guy who said it sucks still has my photo in his profile.

Its a sad life when you do custom work in sl

[Phil Deakins]

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol.

---

If it came down to a brawl between you and Ceka, can I join in please?

---

you would be down and out and miss the whole thing..because you would be first..

we would double team you :matte-motes-evil-invert:

 

hehehehe

---

Yes but the joy I'd have with you two girls double-teaming on me, even for a very short time, would be well worth it

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Ceka Cianci wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Sephina Frostbite wrote:

I just want to say I have utmost respect for Ceka.. and to be honest if it came down to a brawl between us Id be a gonner lol.

---

If it came down to a brawl between you and Ceka, can I join in please?

---

you would be down and out and miss the whole thing..because you would be first..

we would double team you :matte-motes-evil-invert:

 

hehehehe

---

Yes but the joy I'd have with you two girls double-teaming on me, even for a very short time, would be well worth it

---

LOL

[Dillon Levenque]

 

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

Yes but the joy I'd have with you two girls double-teaming on me, even for a very short time, would be well worth it

---

 

The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber Phil Deakins 
By Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961)

[Melita Magic]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

One thing that I've often thought could help would be a third-party escrow service that would hold in trust the works-in-progress (usually full-perm) and payments according to the principal parties' contracts. That escrow service would need a reputation beyond reproach, which means among other things that it could only take on contracts with very specific terms about acceptance and payment, and arbitration conditions for disputes.

---

 

I think it would be brilliant if LL provided just such a service. What's more, they could profit from it.

 

[Sephina Frostbite]

That my dear would be a great idea!