Needing some moral guidance, or rather some guidance..

[Sephina Frostbite]

So I paid for some custom work that was never delivered. After a while he didn't even message me. The last massage almost 2 weeks ago what that he was busy with other orders. Then I come on here seeing him asking for customers. He not only did this to me but also a friend. I understand that he is busy which is why I waited 5 times the amount of time he said he would be done in. He still has yet to deliver my friends product that was purchased months ago. At this point if he is that busy I would want my linden which I did ask for. I haven't harped him which I know can be irritated. I sent 3 messages after two weeks 3 or for days spread apart. I see him online and I am ignored.

My problem is I keep seeing him advertise and people lining up. He just recent posted for opinions on getting more people. Do I warn people are just let them fall victim to his charm?

Thank you for your time.

[Tex Monday]

IMHO, it is fraud...you paid for something and he never delivered. Since you've tried to contact him and he's never responded, he's a scumbag. I don't know if you have any kind of recourse through LL...I was checking around and didn't see anything.

A question is besides you and your friend, has anyone else had this problem? Does his shop have a group? Maybe question people there???

My suggestion is to see if you can file a case with LL (although, it may not be the way to do things), to get your money back or your custom work delivered.

If he's posted for options on the forum, I think you've more than welcome to confront him here. Either you'll guilt him into satisfying you as a customer (with the custom work..get your minds out of the gutter) or he'll just stop posting because you've called him out.

Either way, good luck. It's totally unfair that there are scumbags like this inworld who don't even have the common desency to do a service they're being paid for. (Ohhh..there goes that mind in the gutter thing again)

[Sephina Frostbite]

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Tex Monday wrote:

IMHO, it is fraud...you paid for something and he never delivered. Since you've tried to contact him and he's never responded, he's a scumbag. I don't know if you have any kind of recourse through LL...I was checking around and didn't see anything.

A question is besides you and your friend, has anyone else had this problem? Does his shop have a group? Maybe question people there???

My suggestion is to see if you can file a case with LL (although, it may not be the way to do things), to get your money back or your custom work delivered.

If he's posted for options on the forum, I think you've more than welcome to confront him here. Either you'll guilt him into satisfying you as a customer (with the custom work..get your minds out of the gutter) or he'll just stop posting because you've called him out.

Either way, good luck. It's totally unfair that there are scumbags like this inworld who don't even have the common desency to do a service they're being paid for. (Ohhh..there goes that mind in the gutter thing again)

---

Thanks for the advice. I know there is most likely nothing that can be done concerning LL. I am just concerned of all those victims including close acquaintances of mine. Makes me ill to think about the thousands of linden he is getting. Sadly he has ruined me from ever getting custom work done. I thought about calling him out of the forums in a nice way on his posting but then I dont want to be banned or get backlash from people.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Sephina Frostbite wrote:

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Tex Monday wrote:

IMHO, it is fraud...you paid for something and he never delivered. Since you've tried to contact him and he's never responded, he's a scumbag. I don't know if you have any kind of recourse through LL...I was checking around and didn't see anything.

A question is besides you and your friend, has anyone else had this problem? Does his shop have a group? Maybe question people there???

My suggestion is to see if you can file a case with LL (although, it may not be the way to do things), to get your money back or your custom work delivered.

If he's posted for options on the forum, I think you've more than welcome to confront him here. Either you'll guilt him into satisfying you as a customer (with the custom work..get your minds out of the gutter) or he'll just stop posting because you've called him out.

Either way, good luck. It's totally unfair that there are scumbags like this inworld who don't even have the common desency to do a service they're being paid for. (Ohhh..there goes that mind in the gutter thing again)

---

Thanks for the advice. I know there is most likely nothing that can be done concerning LL. I am just concerned of all those victims including close acquaintances of mine. Makes me ill to think about the thousands of linden he is getting. Sadly he has ruined me from ever getting custom work done. I thought about calling him out of the forums in a nice way on his posting but then I dont want to be banned or get backlash from people.

---

TOS doesn't allow calling out people by name, but I don't think it forbids asking a question like "I purchased something from you two months ago and you have yet to deliver. Would it be too much to ask for you to satisfy your obligations to existing customers before taking on new ones?" in his thread asking for new customers.

You might want to use a little less snark than I did, but I think this approach gets the point across without violating TOS.

[Marigold Devin]

I'm with Tex on this one, it's fraud.  I don't know how much you paid for the custom work, but if, say, it was 1000L$, and he gets 100 orders, well, he has potential to make some money before LL boot him.

But if no one submits an abuse report against him, Linden Lab won't act, so do it now Sephina.  Hopefully others will already have done so, and he's already halfway to being booted.

Linden Lab can see your transaction history, and confirm that you have paid for items that indeed have not been delivered. 

[Marigold Devin]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Sephina Frostbite wrote:

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Tex Monday wrote:

IMHO, it is fraud...you paid for something and he never delivered. Since you've tried to contact him and he's never responded, he's a scumbag. I don't know if you have any kind of recourse through LL...I was checking around and didn't see anything.

A question is besides you and your friend, has anyone else had this problem? Does his shop have a group? Maybe question people there???

My suggestion is to see if you can file a case with LL (although, it may not be the way to do things), to get your money back or your custom work delivered.

If he's posted for options on the forum, I think you've more than welcome to confront him here. Either you'll guilt him into satisfying you as a customer (with the custom work..get your minds out of the gutter) or he'll just stop posting because you've called him out.

Either way, good luck. It's totally unfair that there are scumbags like this inworld who don't even have the common desency to do a service they're being paid for. (Ohhh..there goes that mind in the gutter thing again)

---

Thanks for the advice. I know there is most likely nothing that can be done concerning LL. I am just concerned of all those victims including close acquaintances of mine. Makes me ill to think about the thousands of linden he is getting. Sadly he has ruined me from ever getting custom work done. I thought about calling him out of the forums in a nice way on his posting but then I dont want to be banned or get backlash from people.

---

TOS doesn't allow calling out people by name, but I don't think it forbids asking a question like "I purchased something from you two months ago and you have yet to deliver. Would it be too much to ask for you to satisfy your obligations to existing customers before taking on new ones?" in his thread asking for new customers.

You might want to use a little less snark than I did, but I think this approach gets the point across without violating TOS.

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I thought you sounded assertive rather than snarky... but I might just need to top up my sugar levels ... but a little bit of snark seems appropriate under the circumstances.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Marigold Devin wrote:

I thought you sounded assertive rather than snarky... but I might just need to top up my sugar levels ... but a little bit of snark seems appropriate under the circumstances.

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Oh goody. You top up your sugar, I'll top up my vinegar.

;-)

[Sephina Frostbite]

I am a little intimidated because it seems like is well liked and popular. Id hate to be bashed by people who don't know both sides. But I will report him and call him out so to speak.

[Phil Deakins]

I would do exactly what the others have suggested - post a reply to him:-

"You don't time to deal with more orders. You haven't yet delivered <my stuff> and it's been <weeks> since I paid you for it. Before you stopped communicating with me altogether, you kept telling me you were very busy with order, so when exactly do you think you'll be able to deliver mine?". - with some details.

And I'd post it every time he posts in this and other forums.

[Sephina Frostbite]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I would do exactly what the others have suggested - post a reply to him:-

"You don't time to deal with more orders. You haven't yet delivered <my stuff> and it's been <weeks> since I paid you for it. Before you stopped communicating with me altogether, you kept telling me you were very busy with order, so when exactly do you think you'll be able to deliver mine?". - with some details.

And I'd post it every time he posts in this and other forums.

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Could I copy and paste that plz? lolz.. You said it so perfectly.

 

[Nuhai Ling]

Why did you pay for the work up front? I hate to be the bearer of bad news but never, ever, ever pre-pay someone to make you products in Second Life.  Responsible SL builders will work with you to make a product and then rez a full-perm copy for you to buy. That way you get your product and they get paid without the fuss. It also leaves a purchase trail just in case. If you pay up-front, it only looks like you transferred money from your account to theirs, leaving Linden Lab no information that it was for something specific. 

I would chalk this up to experience and move on. There is really no recourse to compel the builder to provide a finished product at this point. I know its tough but don't dwell on it... just keep going and don't forget.

[Tari Landar]

Unfortunately, LL will not help you. Filing a ticket won't be worth the seconds it takes you to file. I know people will say "file anyway, it can't hurt". Which may be true, but don't get your hopes up that you'll get anything other than a form answer.

I speak from experience on that one, and the product I was out cost me $16,000L. Very hard lesson learned indeed. The answer you'll get will basically say "we don't involve ourselves in resident to resident disputes, we recommend you contact the merchant" and blah, blah blah. Then they'll close the ticket. It's happened to me twice since 2008, but the only one I really cared much about was thw $16k one, and that's the one I filed a ticket on. Incidentally the creator left sl, though I believe she's back under a different name, and left a rather large group of people out a rather large sum of money. There were claims as to where she was, but, they were lies. Which just made the whole thing sting that much more. It's not so much the money..but more the principle of the matter(for me).

I would do everything others already stated. You CAN address someone on the forums, as long as you do it in a way that's not bashing them(whether or not they deserve it) or attacking in any way. A simple "So sorry to bother you here, however I believe my inworld communication is failing on your end, so perhaps you'll see this. I would hate for any more of my messages to go unanswered simply because the system isn't allowing you to see them. Could you please offer me an update on(whatever you got) paid for on(date)? It would be most helpful to me. It would also offer your customers peace of mind to know you're a top notch creator who delivers items as promised." (add in anything else you'd like to here)

Ok, that sounds sweet and kind, but I assure you, it's not meant that way at ALL. It's also rarely received very well, because, assuming this person gives a fig about how he looks to others, it places him in a place of shame. It makes others question him and will hopefully make more people think twice before buying too   BUT, you don't overstep. You don't break TOS. You don't say or do anything that could possibly get you in trouble, or your message removed. Which means it will be there for others to see, longer. It's not seen as "calling someone out", and, the times I have seen it, it's been pretty effective. If only the creator I had an issue with actually used these forums way back when.

You could also do the same thing in the creator's group, if he has one. Even if youre not addressing him, other customers may see it. You may find you're not alone(well you and your friend) and could possibly brainstorm with other potentially shafted customers.

Either way, whatever you choose to do, do it in a manner that places you in a position that always looks good. It would be useless to do something that would be frowned upon by anyone, much less the lab.

I really hope the, uh, person, gets either your money back, or the product, whichever satisfies you most. I'm extremely careful now myself after that incident. It's definitely no fun at all.

[Sephina Frostbite]

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Nuhai Ling wrote:

Why did you pay for the work up front? I hate to be the bearer of bad news but never, ever, ever pre-pay someone to make you products in Second Life.  Responsible SL builders will work with you to make a product and then rez a full-perm copy for you to buy. That way you get your product and they get paid without the fuss. It also leaves a purchase trail just in case. If you pay up-front, it only looks like you transferred money from your account to theirs, leaving Linden Lab no information that it was for something specific. 

I would chalk this up to experience and move on. There is really no recourse to compel the builder to provide a finished product at this point. I know its tough but don't dwell on it... Just keep going and don't forget.

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I paid up front because I was told that is normal when someone is doing custom work. I was leery but when several builders said it was okay I did. Then when a friend messaged me saying what he did to her and is now doing to me I felt like a mule. Never again though.

[Sephina Frostbite]

i did just that and I was nice about it. I dont want to make a scene or have it turn around on me. He messaged me saying he will pay me in a few days within seconds after posting so crossing my fingers. I never want to be mean or bash some one. Thanks for the advice.

[Sephina Frostbite]

Thank you everyone for your advice. I felt better getting that off my chest and having something done about it. I hope he knows I hated making that post with ever fiber of my being but I also hate seeing other people ripped off. Crossing my fingers I will get my money back as he promised. After all this is my rl birthday weekend and Id love to spend some lindens on my b day  

[Pamela Galli]

RE custom work:  I don't do custom work often, but when I do, I request a deposit upfront, which will be deducted from the final price of the item. I would not do all the work upfront for a customer who had made no investment at all. Both creator and customer should share the investment.

And I hope you will reply in that thread in such a way as to publicize how the problem was handled. After all, the guy can tell his side of the story -- if there is one.

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

You certainly can

[Qie Niangao]

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I paid up front because I was told that is normal when someone is doing custom work. I was leery but when several builders said it was okay I did. Then when a friend messaged me saying what he did to her and is now doing to me I felt like a mule. Never again though.

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At least for scripting, it's really not that unusual to have to pay some up-front deposit, especially if it's a new business relationship. I would imagine the same is true for building.

As you discovered for yourself, transactions in SL are risky if there's no RL contract backing them up. That's true of both buyer and seller, so splitting the risk is reasonable until both parties have built up enough trust that the risk is negligible.

[Suspiria Finucane]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

At least for scripting, it's really not that unusual to have to pay some up-front deposit, especially if it's a new business relationship. I would imagine the same is true for building.

 

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 I think it depends on each builders preference. I've done custom work for years and never asked for payment until the customer was 100% satisfied.

[Tex Monday]

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Sephina Frostbite wrote:

i did just that and I was nice about it. I dont want to make a scene or have it turn around on me. He messaged me saying he will pay me in a few days within seconds after posting so crossing my fingers. I never want to be mean or bash some one. Thanks for the advice.

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If he doesn't pay you, put a link to the post in this post...then we can all ask him why he's not living up to his obligations.

I hate seeing people get shafted (unless, that's what they're into, of course....:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

Just a friendly little intervention, I think....:matte-motes-sunglasses-3:

[Ceka Cianci]

There is always SLU if you feel like naming and shaming ..

They let you do it there..

[Staralien]

It is too bad we don't have a Name & Shame section here. But then, some people would post stuff about people who don't deserve it I suppose. Some have real issues, but some seem to get their panties tied in a bunch at the least little thing! :matte-motes-nerdy:

 

I hope you get your money back or the product you were promised.

[Sephina Frostbite]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

There is always SLU if you feel like naming and shaming ..

They let you do it there..

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I never do feel like naming nor shaming which is why I didn't. I am always respectful even if I am being ripped off. I wasnt rude nor did I say who it was. Please dont turn it around on me. Thank you.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Sephina Frostbite wrote:

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

There is always SLU if you feel like naming and shaming ..

They let you do it there..

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I never do feel like naming nor shaming which is why I didn't. I am always respectful even if I am being ripped off. I wasnt rude nor did I say who it was. Please dont turn it around on me. Thank you.

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Oo just people offering help you disrespect? i believe i said IF you FEEL like it..

 

i wasn't turning it around on you..don't put so much into the words name and shame..it's only meaing that you are allowed to say the name of the person or place you have a conflict with..

you won't get  an easy pass at SLU to just drop in then say their name  and everyone buy  your story at face value..

you still have to prove yourself.. otherwise you get ate up..

i  was only showing you another SL forum with a bit more freedom with a large following as another channle to discuss what happened..

because talking about it here is just blowing smoke without the fire..

they happen to deal with a lot of things like this..without the restrictions that the SL forums have..they deal with a lot of copybot and mesh theft and other things that can't be posted here..

and they  happen to actually be a help..

please don't twist  my meaning around..K?

i don't use disrespectful ways to get results.. but i won't be a victim  when i don't have to be either..

and  never in my life will i respect a thief..especially when they are ripping me off..

that's just silly..

in the future i'll save my advice for people that are actually looking for help..

 

Also..

don't ever use a post of mine..especially when i go out of my way and post up to help..to launch some holy martyr meme at my expense..

you will do nothing but lose respect..

only a couple of things push my B!tch button..and that is one of them..

hence the tone of this whole post..

next time at least check out the information before you jump to conclusions..

 

[Nuhai Ling]

I am glad you can get deposits from your clients and it sounds like you have built a solid reputation, BUT I still advise to never, ever, ever pre-pay for SL work. Although a buyer could refuse the creator's work, if it is completed per the contract it is extremely doubtful they would not buy the item. The "risk" is always on the buyer just as in real life. The only way contract work should be done is to have the builder make the product and then offer the full-perm final version for sale.

FYI, when I do custom work it is always with two conditions. The first is that I will supply the full-perm product by using the in-world sales function once it is accepted by the buyer. Second, I do not sell or offer copies of custom work I made for clients. They paid me to make their product so they also gain exclusive rights to it. The caveat is that if they back out at the last minute - and again, I have never had that happen - then I have the right to sell it as I see fit.

Remember... buyer beware! It will keep you happy all your life!!!!