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TwoIron

Having to rebake textures constantly...

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Perrie Juran wrote:

As to the who and why of the original architecture of SL we'd have to ask the original architects.  You can dig through old Forums and Wiki's and JIRA's and glean some answers.  Some of it comes down to it was the best available at the time.  One thing they could not see sometimes was the long term affects.

But moving forward to today two things have to be dealt with which is what makes some of the fixes harder than they may appear on the surface.  First is Domino effect.  Change one thing and suddenly a hundred others topple. 

The second is scalability.  Some of the original architecture hasn't scaled well.  But what is interesting is that 'experts' outside of SL haven't been able to improve on it very much despite having better programs and more powerful systems than the original architects of SL had.  The systems that do work better would require SL to dump everything and start all over from the ground up.

 

ETA:  If saying this makes me an apologist, so be it.  I look at it more simply as an acknowledgement of some of the challenges and barriers to building a Virtual World.  It is not my intent to say that LL couldn't do a better job.  I think that they could.  But we still need to understand it's not always as simple as pushing a button and poof, everything works perfectly.

I don't think you are being an apologist, though maybe the rants of technologists new to LL's predicament shouldn't bug you so much. I'm seeing some head butting here by people who might be largely in agreement. There really is no excuse for new residents not being able to see themselves fully rezzed under the simpliest of circumstances, which is roughly the complaint I see being lodged here, and which I've experienced myself for years across numerous computers both Wintel and Mac.

I think LL got caught in their current position because of some very large "errors" made long ago. Perhaps the biggest error was made my Philip Rosedale himself, who thought SL would be more widely attractive than it's turned out to be. But that's an error many people made, including all those companies that piled into SL to advertise. They were able to get out. LL can't.

Long ago I read about LL's use of MySQL and the limitations that's placed on growth of the grid. The argument was that Oracle would have been too expensive. I don't doubt that. There might have been the hope that revenue would grow to the point that a more robust solution could be implemented, but that revenue never came. Unless the average resident is spending more money each year (I'm not), revenue has been in decline for at least two years. If expenses haven't been declining faster, something's gonna snap.

Now everybody is running to mobile/social, where MySpace and Zynga are proof that mistakes are not unique to LL. If there's one thing that worries me, it's the movement LL is making in that direction.

And while we do need to understand that it's not always as simple as pushing a button and poof, everything works, we must also understand customer expectations are customer expectations, even if they seem unfair. If you can't meet them, is that necessarily the customer's fault?

Somewhere else in this thread you wondered if the OP would complain to his computer manufacturer for selling him a computer that didn't play SL well. So long as the manufacturer accurately describes the computer being sold, I think responsiblity for selecting the right one falls to the purchaser. And further, if it's difficult to ascertain what kind of computer is necessary to run SL well, wouldn't that be LL's fault? When I purchase gas for my car, I don't expect the clerk at the station to know what octane fuel my car needs. I expect to find that requirement in the owner's manual. If it's not there, and my car sounds like a diesel on 87 octane, I'm gonna get mad at Ford, not BP. If it is there, and I've just filled up with 87, then my blonde is showing.

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dinner_003.jpg

 


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

As to the who and why of the original architecture of SL we'd have to ask the original architects.  You can dig through old Forums and Wiki's and JIRA's and glean some answers.  Some of it comes down to it was the best available at the time.  One thing they could not see sometimes was the long term affects.

But moving forward to today two things have to be dealt with which is what makes some of the fixes harder than they may appear on the surface.  First is Domino effect.  Change one thing and suddenly a hundred others topple. 

The second is scalability.  Some of the original architecture hasn't scaled well.  But what is interesting is that 'experts' outside of SL haven't been able to improve on it very much despite having better programs and more powerful systems than the original architects of SL had.  The systems that do work better would require SL to dump everything and start all over from the ground up.

 

ETA:  If saying this makes me an apologist, so be it.  I look at it more simply as an acknowledgement of some of the challenges and barriers to building a Virtual World.  It is not my intent to say that LL couldn't do a better job.  I think that they could.  But we still need to understand it's not always as simple as pushing a button and poof, everything works perfectly.

I don't think you are being an apologist, though maybe the rants of technologists new to LL's predicament shouldn't bug you so much. I'm seeing some head butting here by people who might be largely in agreement. There really is no excuse for new residents not being able to see themselves fully rezzed under the simpliest of circumstances, which is roughly the complaint I see being lodged here, and which I've experienced myself for years across numerous computers both Wintel and Mac.

I think LL got caught in their current position because of some very large "errors" made long ago. Perhaps the biggest error was made my Philip Rosedale himself, who thought SL would be more widely attractive than it's turned out to be. But that's an error many people made, including all those companies that piled into SL to advertise. They were able to get out. LL can't.

Long ago I read about LL's use of MySQL and the limitations that's placed on growth of the grid. The argument was that Oracle would have been too expensive. I don't doubt that. There might have been the hope that revenue would grow to the point that a more robust solution could be implemented, but that revenue never came. Unless the average resident is spending more money each year (I'm not), revenue has been in decline for at least two years. If expenses haven't been declining faster, something's gonna snap.

Now everybody is running to mobile/social, where MySpace and Zynga are proof that mistakes are not unique to LL. If there's one thing that worries me, it's the movement LL is making in that direction.

And while we do need to understand that it's not always as simple as pushing a button and poof, everything works, we must also understand customer expectations are customer expectations, even if they seem unfair. If you can't meet them, is that necessarily the customer's fault?

Somewhere else in this thread you wondered if the OP would complain to his computer manufacturer for selling him a computer that didn't play SL well. So long as the manufacturer accurately describes the computer being sold, I think responsiblity for selecting the right one falls to the purchaser. And further, if it's difficult to ascertain what kind of computer is necessary to run SL well, wouldn't that be LL's fault? When I purchase gas for my car, I don't expect the clerk at the station to know what octane fuel my car needs. I expect to find that requirement in the owner's manual. If it's not there, and my car sounds like a diesel on 87 octane, I'm gonna get mad at Ford, not BP. If it is there, and I've just filled up with 87, then my blonde is showing.

It's easy to lose patience.  Especially when a problem seems to go on endlessly.  But I do try to approach everything with patience, especially SL.  If you don't it can drive you crazy.

Some things are inexcuseable as far as I'm concerned.  That my dinner above (Troobles) didn't perform out of the box as advertised I find inexcusable.  But when it comes to the platform as a whole, that glitches happen, I may not like them, but I am a lot more patient and understanding.

 

 

 

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Long ago I read about LL's use of MySQL and the limitations that's placed on growth of the grid. The argument was that Oracle would have been too expensive. I don't doubt that. 

I dunno. That MySQL choice looks pretty smart now, in the time of NoSQL.

(I'd have supported the MySQL choice back when it was made, too, and have serious doubts that it ever got in the way of growth. It's hard to imagine anymore, but back in the day there were religious wars over relational DBs, and tracts written that in hindsight seem pinhead angel choreography.)

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Well to me your comments sound like complaints. I'm sorry :matte-motes-dont-cry:. True, some comments you recieve on the forums may be "ridiculous" but what can you expect by posting negative comments about SL on the forums? You better be prepared for just as much, or more, negative feedback.

 

 

Does SL have flaws? Yes, of course. However, just getting vexed about those issues does not make them disappear or result in a solution.

 

All I can say is be patient and if you really feel that strongly about it then say something to the Lindens since THEY have the authority to make the changes and not us.olution to your issue and hope you have a good day! :matte-motes-smile:

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Long ago I read about LL's use of MySQL and the limitations that's placed on growth of the grid. The argument was that Oracle would have been too expensive. I don't doubt that. 

I dunno. That MySQL choice looks pretty smart now, in the time of NoSQL.

(I'd have supported the MySQL choice back when it was made, too, and have serious doubts that it ever got in the way of growth. It's hard to imagine anymore, but back in the day there were religious wars over relational DBs, and tracts written that in hindsight seem pinhead angel choreography.)

I may be misremembering the name of the DB, but the discussion was definitely about the difficulty of scaling up SL. But this kind of thing happens all the time. You usually can't start out where you want to end up. You have limited resources and must make do with what you have. You can hope that the business will grow to the point you can make major improvements and grow the business even more, but that might not happen.

I joined SL in early 2008, while the hype was peaking. Upon entering, I wondered how a world with such a steep learning curve could be as successful as the hand wavers claimed, but I was happy as a clam. I had no other video game or virtual world experience, and I found SL to be alluring in the same way I'm drawn to factories and workshops where things can be made. In the five years since then, I believe the SL experience has, from the perspective of Philip's "virtual tinker toy" idea, gone backwards.

I can no longer compete with the creations of SL's most sophisticated builders unless I invest in the steep learning curves of external tools like Blender. Whether this is blessing or curse I can't say. Mesh might be a step in the right direction as we head into the world of at-home 3D printing. It might also further bifurcate the SL population into builders and buyers. Even that might be a good thing. Rosedale's original vision of SL as a place to create may have been suited for a population too small to support a business the size we once imagined. Mobile is overturning lots of apple carts.

Whether we are where we are as the result of error or inevitibility I also can't say. It's difficult to tease it all apart. The complacency I feel results from the realization that we are not where I'd hoped we would be, and we are not likely to get there. So I'll make the best of what we have as long as we have it.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

It's easy to lose patience.  Especially when a problem seems to go on endlessly.  But I do try to approach everything with patience, especially SL.  If you don't it can drive you crazy.

Some things are inexcuseable as far as I'm concerned.  That my dinner above (Troobles) didn't perform out of the box as advertised I find inexcusable.  But when it comes to the platform as a whole, that glitches happen, I may not like them, but I am a lot more patient and understanding.

I was in-world for an hour or so last night. For the duration of that time, my avi rebaked itself every minute or two, as did many of the objects in my house. This has happened in both Firestorm and V3, for both me and Snugs, on both MacOS and WinXP and across several machines over the years. That such a basic function could be borked for so long suggests to me that LL does not fully understand SL. But I don't think that surprises us, does it? And that's the complacency I'm speaking about. We can still file JIRAs and comment in the forums, but we've lowered our expectations, haven't we?

Server side baking really feels to me like a "We don't know how the current scheme works, so we can't fix it. Let's replace it and hope something completely different works better." I can only hope they have better luck than with their various forum system replacements over the years ;-)

As for the Troobles, I'm also very fond of setting on fire those things which peeve me.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

It's easy to lose patience.  Especially when a problem seems to go on endlessly.  But I do try to approach everything with patience, especially SL.  If you don't it can drive you crazy.

Some things are inexcuseable as far as I'm concerned.  That my dinner above (Troobles) didn't perform out of the box as advertised I find inexcusable.  But when it comes to the platform as a whole, that glitches happen, I may not like them, but I am a lot more patient and understanding.

I was in-world for an hour or so last night. For the duration of that time, my avi rebaked itself every minute or two, as did many of the objects in my house. This has happened in both Firestorm and V3, for both me and Snugs, on both MacOS and WinXP and across several machines over the years. That such a basic function could be borked for so long suggests to me that LL does not fully understand SL. But I don't think that surprises us, does it? And that's the complacency I'm speaking about. We can still file JIRAs and comment in the forums, but we've lowered our expectations, haven't we?


Well, I'm not surprised when something doesn't work.  Somethings like failed Avatar baking can be more frustrating than others.  I just try to do my best with what I have.

 


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Server side baking really feels to me like a "We don't know how the current scheme works, so we can't fix it. Let's replace it and hope something completely different works better." I can only hope they have better luck than with their various forum system replacements over the years ;-)

 

 

Actually it makes sense.  They are moving a computationally expensive function from 1000's of computers that they have no control over all the variables to the Servers where they can control and optimize the computations and hopefully supply the necessary resources.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Server side baking really feels to me like a "We don't know how the current scheme works, so we can't fix it. Let's replace it and hope something completely different works better." I can only hope they have better luck than with their various forum system replacements over the years ;-)

 


 

Actually it makes sense.  They are moving a computationally expensive function from 1000's of computers that they have no control over all the variables to the Servers where they can control and optimize the computations and hopefully supply the necessary resources.

Merging avatar texture layers should (if I'm missing something, somebody let me know!) be pretty easy . It's just a bunch of pixmap operations done on on a sorted collection of textures. The CPU and network overhead for sending all those textures to the viewer seems to me to be in the same ballpark, if not greater, than processing the pixmaps locally. This would always have been true... unless those textures were distributed across a network of asset servers, and aggregating them in one place for baking was difficult. This was the theory I esposed earlier to explain client side baking. If there never was a good reason to push baking to the client, that would suggest some degree of incompetence during the early days of SL's design.

I can only imagine why certain decisions were made more than a decade ago, but I'm going to hold onto my theory. I believe it was too difficult for the original SL asset servers to deliver all the required textures to a single CPU in the server farm for baking. Since all the mechanisms for delivering assets to the viewers had to exist and work well for SL to operate at all, they chose to delegate final assembly of the avatar texture to the one place they knew they'd have all the assets... the viewer. Now that SL occupies an ever decreasing physical footprint (declining concurrency/regions divided by increasing server packing density equals much smaller physical footprint) and networking speeds have increased (10G between servers these days?) the equation now favors baking the textures in the server. I haven't heard any talk about SL server locations in ages, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are all now in the same building, rather than split between Austin and SF Bay (as I once heard they were).

It would be ironic if the reason SL performance finally improves is because it's shrinking.

I'm just making all this stuff up, but it sounds good to me!

ETA: It's interesting to watch the borked avatar baking process. You can see the rebaking progress through various stages of the progressive texture download. Just moments after the final, full resolution textures bake, it all starts over again. That's a hell of a lot of work being done by the entire SL system to effect what is truly (again unless I'm missing something) a simple set of pixmap operations. I hope server side baking works. I don't believe anyone at LL knows why viewer side baking does not.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: It's interesting to watch the borked avatar baking process. You can see the rebaking progress through various stages of the progressive texture download. Just moments after the final, full resolution textures bake, it all starts over again. That's a hell of a lot of work being done by the entire SL system to effect what is truly (again unless I'm missing something) a simple set of pixmap operations. I hope server side baking works. I don't believe anyone at LL knows why viewer side baking does not.


https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SUN-57

Go to the bottom of that JIRA. Problem found, problem fixed in beta. Doesn't requre server-side baking.

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

ETA: It's interesting to watch the borked avatar baking process. You can see the rebaking progress through various stages of the progressive texture download. Just moments after the final, full resolution textures bake, it all starts over again. That's a hell of a lot of work being done by the entire SL system to effect what is truly (again unless I'm missing something) a simple set of pixmap operations. I hope server side baking works. I don't believe anyone at LL knows why viewer side baking does not.


Go to the bottom of that JIRA. Problem found, problem fixed in beta. Doesn't requre server-side baking.

 

The problem described in that JIRA isn't the one I've been seeing for the last year or two. Last night I watched the top of my avi rebake for the duration of my hour or so in-world. It was not a matter of not baking at all, I watched the entire progressive download and bake sequence repeat endlessly.

I also witnessed the de-texturing of things that went out of view. If I spin around, I can catch the viewer repainting stuff that was fully rezzed a moment earlier. This has been described as an interest list issue. And I routinely find myself having to cam around a place to force everything to rez.

It would be ironic if client side baking was fixed for good on the day before that entire code path is retired, only to be replaced with server side baking that has its own issues.

;-)

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The two of us have been experimenting the last couple of days.  Both of us are still having the same issue, when trying to put together new outfits, our avatars simply will not bake.

 

The problem seems to be created with things like "glossy skin" add ons and tatoos...also having to "stack" alpha layers seems to cause the issue as well.  It's a significant problem as people unwittingly buy tattoo layers and clothing that use alpha layers...then when trying to use these items they now have the problem if thier avatar not being able to bake...

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Oh and the problem is NOT fixed in beta...we are both using the beta viewer and still have the same problem.

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TwoIron wrote:

Oh and the problem is NOT fixed in beta...we are both using the beta viewer and still have the same problem.

Yeah, it looks like only one of two batches of Sunshine patches made it in before the most recent beta was built. I am seeing a big improvement with the most recent Snowstorm build, which has the rest of the patches, so hopefully the next beta will get that too.

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I don't care.  I really don't.  In fact I now hope you don't like it even more.  The software does not work as advertised.  Full stop.  Let me repeat this so you get it...I hope you have a signifiacant problem with this statement.  I hope you can't sleep at night because of it.  THE SOFTWARE DOESNT WORK.

It's a very simple concept.  Us two new players paid for premium service, bought really nice skins and a bunch of clothes in the store.  Since we have done that, we have been in the spots our premium subscription gave us, struggling to make sense of the process of customizing our avatars.  That's broken software.  It's unacceptable.  In fact I'm convinced there would be more players if the avatar process wasnt so darn difficult - steep learning curve and broken software to aide in the confusion of getting set up.  Yes, It's bad.  Broken even.  Deal with that reality.

Once again...I REALLY REALLY hope you don't like me pointing out this simple reality, because believe me, this is not my problem, it's yours.  

 

Reply to TwoIron - view message

‎04-17-2013 11:12 AM

Well to me your comments sound like complaints. I'm sorry **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/html/assets/emoticons/mattemotes/don't_cry.png" border="0" alt=":matte-motes-dont-cry:" title="" />. True, some comments you recieve on the forums may be "ridiculous" but what can you expect by posting negative comments about SL on the forums? You better be prepared for just as much, or more, negative feedback.

 

 

Does SL have flaws? Yes, of course. However, just getting vexed about those issues does not make them disappear or result in a solution.

 

All I can say is be patient and if you really feel that strongly about it then say something to the Lindens since THEY have the authority to make the changes and not us.olution to your issue and hope you have a good day! **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/html/assets/emoticons/mattemotes/smile.png" border="0" alt=":matte-motes-smile:" title="" />

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Server side baking really feels to me like a "We don't know how the current scheme works, so we can't fix it. Let's replace it and hope something completely different works better." I can only hope they have better luck than with their various forum system replacements over the years ;-)

 

 

Actually it makes sense.  They are moving a computationally expensive function from 1000's of computers that they have no control over all the variables to the Servers where they can control and optimize the computations and hopefully supply the necessary resources.

Merging avatar texture layers should (if I'm missing something, somebody let me know!) be pretty easy . It's just a bunch of pixmap operations done on on a sorted collection of textures. The CPU and network overhead for sending all those textures to the viewer seems to me to be in the same ballpark, if not greater, than processing the pixmaps locally. This would always have been true... unless those textures were distributed across a network of asset servers, and aggregating them in one place for baking was difficult. This was the theory I esposed earlier to explain client side baking. If there never was a good reason to push baking to the client, that would suggest some degree of incompetence during the early days of SL's design.

I can only imagine why certain decisions were made more than a decade ago, but I'm going to hold onto my theory. I believe it was too difficult for the original SL asset servers to deliver all the required textures to a single CPU in the server farm for baking. Since all the mechanisms for delivering assets to the viewers had to exist and work well for SL to operate at all, they chose to delegate final assembly of the avatar texture to the one place they knew they'd have all the assets... the viewer. Now that SL occupies an ever decreasing physical footprint (declining concurrency/regions divided by increasing server packing density equals much smaller physical footprint) and networking speeds have increased (10G between servers these days?) the equation now favors baking the textures in the server. I haven't heard any talk about SL server locations in ages, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are all now in the same building, rather than split between Austin and SF Bay (as I once heard they were).

It would be ironic if the reason SL performance finally improves is because it's shrinking.

I'm just making all this stuff up, but it sounds good to me!

ETA: It's interesting to watch the borked avatar baking process. You can see the rebaking progress through various stages of the progressive texture download. Just moments after the final, full resolution textures bake, it all starts over again. That's a hell of a lot of work being done by the entire SL system to effect what is truly (again unless I'm missing something) a simple set of pixmap operations. I hope server side baking works. I don't believe anyone at LL knows why viewer side baking does not.

We can postulate a lot of ideas about the original decisions by th eoriginal architects but in the end, only their hair dressers know for sure.

Now, I will again say that I am technically completely out of my league here and also I don't have links to document this.  I'm just working off of general memory of what I have read.  The issue as it exists is because the Server is having to wait for the Client AND then redistribute the information to all the users on a SIM, it is creating extra overhead and traffic (internet and internal) for the Server.  All of this is taking CPU cycles and the idea is that (in theory) the ultimate outcome i sa reduction in Server Load.

This is a very interesting study, Scalability for Virtual Worlds, that I think offers some great insight into the complexity and difficulties in improving performance in Virtual Worlds.  It also gives a lot of insight into why you really can not compare games like WOW to SL.  While this study was done in 2009 and hardware and infrstructure have improved vastly since then, it's interesting to note that at the time of the study they set 25 to 30 Avatars per SIM in SL as the maximum that could be handled efficiently at that time.  It was simply put, a hardware and infrastructure limitation.

"Collaborative software such as Wikipedia is highly scalable because user actions involve only simple computations. MMO Games with a static environment such as World of Warcraft require comparatively more computational resources, leading to a drop in scalability. Simulators, particularly military simulators such as SIMNET, are even more “real” than virtual worlds, in that users can interact with the virtual environment (e.g., destroy buildings); the result is even less scalability. Finally, user-designed virtual worlds such as Second Life allow objects to be created, modeled, and scripted by the users at run-time. This flexibility comes with high computational complexity; for example, the resulting scalability of Second Life is on the order of at most 25-30 users per server. If the player-to-server ratio of collaborative software were possible in a net-VE with the flexibility and degree of immersion of virtual worlds, this would allow for a user experience beyond the reach of current systems. (my bolding).

Right now LL is attempting to do things that were described as "beyond the reach of current systems."

So while some things can be really frustrating to deal with, especially things that we think on the surface should be "no brainers," there is a lot they have to deal with to make the system run as smooth as possible for everyone using it.

Personally I find all of this stuff fascinating.

 

 

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TwoIron wrote:

Once again...I
REALLY REALLY
hope you don't like me pointing out this simple reality, because believe me, this is not my problem, it's yours.  

 

Indeed, we all have our own problems. Some deal with bad software and some deal with having everyone who meets them come to the conclusion that their last name is probably "Massengill."

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I've yet to meet a passive aggressive computer geek, you know, the kind that hangs out on internet forums and does nothing but opine about the poster, not the content of what the poster is writing about, who could ever stand up to someone who is six foot three and a former collegic outside linebacker and even *think* about communicating in the same way they do online.

There is pretty much a good half dozen of these sorts on pretty much every internet forum, the agenda is always the same, belittle people and make constant comments on the character of the person, not actually discuss the subject at hand.

Personally, I find this type of individual to be essentially a coward, and for sure in real life they would fall apart like a cheap nylon tent if they attempted to deal with, say a group of hockey players having a beer at the pub; in the same way they deal with people on the forums they haunt...but that's just me.  I know I've never once had anyone attempt to communicate with me in a bellittling way in real life, other than a hurled insult from a moving car or something...but then again I'm usually the biggest physical specimin in the facility, unless of course there are NBA players or NFL lineman in the room...but such is the internet...you can be super confrontational and not have to actually apply that confrontation in any kind of social context...

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Oh don't worry, I have no problem with it what-so-ever and Ill be sure to sleep well ;) I have a good grasp of reality, I just choose to accept and make the most of it. I suggest you do the same. :)

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You mean the reality that something is wrong with the process of "baking" my avatar?  I do accept it.  It's you that has the problem with me simply pointing it out - which is why every post is about me and not the actual subject at hand.

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Personally I find all of this stuff fascinating. 


Me too, and not just the technical stuff. I liked Philip Rosedale's original vision for SL, in which creation was easy. Now it's becoming the bastion of specialists, just as it is in RL. Virtual reality is giving way to augmented reality. We SL diehards are a tiny lot, apparently not representative of the general population that Rosedale might have thought he was targeting.

Years from now will we look back and see that SL was ahead of its time? Out of touch with reality? Owner of a sturdy niche? Will we all run off to mobile/social before eventually coming back to the granddaughter of SL?

Slightly off-topic...

I just finished building props for a community theater play. My work was seen by more people than have seen anything I've built in SL, and has generated more notoriety. This was quite unexpected and suggests that RL is a more worthy SL competitor than I'd thought ;-)

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TwoIron wrote:

You mean the reality that something is wrong with the process of "baking" my avatar?  I do accept it.  It's you that has the problem with me simply pointing it out - which is why every post is about me and not the actual subject at hand.

You do more than pointing out something is wrong, you whine and complain about the fact something doesn't work, which you are entitled to btw. With an attitude like that you won't get a lot of positive feedback on the forums, what do you expect? You could just as well complain in your local grocery store, the people on these forums can fix as much in SL as they can. Only difference might be your intimidating 6 foot 3 figure preventing happy shoppers pointing out the obvious to you. So if you want some response face to face, the local gym or boxing school might be the place to look for it. I think their advice would be: "Very annoying, now get over it".

What strikes me, is the fact you came to SL without knowing the first thing about it, then pay for land and clothes. Do you buy a car without testdriving it? Do you buy a house before entering it? Do you buy clothes without fitting them first? Most people start with a free account and try freebees for starters. If they like SL, they upgrade, if they don't, they leave. Nothing lost. Your situation is not unacceptable, it's unfortunate at best. You could have prevented it altogether.

Anyway, the problem with the baking wasn't there in the past, from my experience it did not start happening when tattoos were added to our toolbox either. The problem is there though, nobody disagrees with you on that. Most importantly, the upcoming server side baking people already told you about, will probably fix it. So all you and the rest of us can do is wait it out. You can't expect LL to either shut down the grid or remove tattoos from second life until there's a fix.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:

Personally I find all of this stuff fascinating. 


Me too, and not just the technical stuff. I liked Philip Rosedale's original vision for SL, in which creation was easy. Now it's becoming the bastion of specialists, just as it is in RL. Virtual reality is giving way to augmented reality. We SL diehards are a tiny lot, apparently not representative of the general population that Rosedale might have thought he was targeting.

Years from now will we look back and see that SL was ahead of its time? Out of touch with reality? Owner of a sturdy niche? Will we all run off to mobile/social before eventually coming back to the granddaughter of SL?

Slightly off-topic...

I just finished building props for a community theater play. My work was seen by more people than have seen anything I've built in SL, and has generated more notoriety. This was quite unexpected and suggests that RL is a more worthy SL competitor than I'd thought ;-)

We've gone off here on a small threadjack it appears though the it has been related to the OP's comments.  We could discuss this for a long time. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

We've gone off here on a small threadjack it appears though the it has been related to the OP's comments.  We could discuss this for a long time. 


Yep. I think the primary reasons we constantly have technical complaints are not technical, and we could theorize ad nauseum.

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How many of you are going to do the same thing?  Let me make this crystal clear for you - there is NO WAY any of you could communicate to me like this face to face.  Not a chance.

So hide behind your keyboards and continue to drop vieled insults and try to make yourself feel superior, because frankly that is all you got.  Bottom line.  Think I'm not serious?  Drop me a private message and I will send anyone that wants to opine about my character here my cell and we can have a little chat. 

The strawman arguements that are being put forth here are ridiculous, I said I paid for premium subscription, I never claimed I bought land, and yes, both of us, me and my RL friend, purchased clothing and assumed it would work.  Your pathetic arguement is that I should have researched more before I did that?  Its totally ridiculous.  More proof to me that folks like you have an agenda...make yourself feel superior.  Attack the person not the issue.  Frankly you are a dime a dozen, it's the relative anonymity of the internet that allows you to deal with someone in a social context that you would never attempt in RL, unless you run a daycare or are a T-Ball coach or something.  It's pathetic in the extreme, seriously.

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Sorry but you're the belittling coward here. People have tried to answer you which you responded with only aggravated whining. If you don't like the responses then simply don't post on the forums since all you're getting is negative feedback. Besides no one is upset that you pointed out a flaw about SL, we're frustrated with your constant complaining which pretty much proves that you don't really accept the issue. Please, don't make yourself seem macho and threaten others over something so trivial since it makes you seem a bit foolish since you yourself are doing the same EXACT thing. I hope you find a solution and have a good day ;)

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