Standard Sizing, Cupcakes, & You!

[Keli Kyrie]

One of the great things about Second Life is the endless ways we are able to customize our avatars but some fear Mesh Standard Sizing might take some of that away.  I had this fear myself until I looked into just what Standard Sizing does. Standard Sizing mainly effects the areas of the body that store fat. Standard Sizes come in 5 sizes XXS, XS, S, M, and L. If you use mesh breasts only thing they change is your body fat and the size of your rear. If you don't use mesh breasts you will end up with average sized breasts.

 

As you can see I still look like me in the above pictures the only thing that is different is how many cupcakes it looks like I ate. Rigged Mesh Clothing really only looks at 8 settings. Body Fat, Torso Muscle, Breast Size, Love Handles, Belly Size, Leg Muscle, Butt Size, and Saddle Bags. (men have a few more options but same idea) If you change these 8 settings to fit one of the Standard Mesh Sizes it does not matter what your shape is rigged mesh will fit.

 

Your shoulders can be as wide as you like but if you set the “body fat” settings to medium that is what you will be. Both the top and the bottom of the bikini are mediums. Let me say this again rigged mesh does not care what your shape is as long as you follow the settings in  Body Fat, Torso Muscle, Breast Size, Love Handles, Belly Size, Leg Muscle, Butt Size, and Saddle Bags.

 

So if you want to eat this whole strawberry cake there are setting to make it look like you did without changing the “you” people know. With Standard Sizes you can be as short or as tall as you like and the only thing that matter is the settings I have mentioned.  If you pick XS fat settings you can be 6'5” and the rigging will still fit the XS mesh to your shape. If you want to know more about Standard Sizes you can get a free kit here: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package-Updated-Male-Female/2894727

Here is a sample of the settings:

Female Medium

Body Fat: 11

Torso Muscle: 38

Breast Size: 58

Love Handles: 31

Belly Size: 6

Leg Muscle: 56

Butt Size: 44

Saddle Bags: 36

 

Male Medium

Body Fat: 5

Belly Size: 3

Torso Muscle: 51

Love Handles:

28 Leg Muscle:

61 Butt Size:

55 Saddle Bags:

31 Knee Angle:

50 Package:

31 Pectorals: 27

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

Right exactly, no avatar on SL should be fat, store fat or be anything but stick/bow legged.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

Going by this "standard" sizing... If you want a size 62 azz you can have one.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Sorry I beg to differ. You are assuming that everyone has a body whose key parts are proportioned similar to one of the standard sizes with average breasts.  But that is a false assumption.  Two women could have the exact same measurements that are also close to one of the standard sizes but one have breasts a lot larger and one breasts that are a lot smaller.

If your shape has different numbers than those that effect standard sizing, than adjusting it can change the way you look sometimes drastically.  For example: your normal shape has breasts that fit the medium size but body fat that is more the XS size and muscles that are more S sized.  Changing those to conform to all the numbers of one standard size, no matter which one is chosen, is going to make a big difference in how you look.

To me, my appearance includes my body shape as well as my face.  I don't mind making some minor changes to fit mesh clothes, but I have passed up a lot of mesh clothes that would require me to make too many body part changes or too large a change in any particular body part.

While Standard Sizing helps many, it is not a solution for all avatars unless they change their appearance noticeably.  And that is something some are loathe to do.

 

[Keli Kyrie]

You make some good points I was just shocked that I only had to change 8 things.... I thought it would be a lot more. The good news is if it is just a matter of breasts you can get mesh breasts and use lolas like with this outfit: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/ArisAris-Chloe-Lolas-Tango-Version-Mesh-Outfit/4486295

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I was just giving some examples where Standard Sized won't work without a big appearance change.  Mesh breasts aren't for everyone either.  I and many others don't like mesh breasts and will never wear them. 

[Venus Petrov]

That is an excellent illustration, Keli, of the different 'standard' sizes that are widely used by designers.  I have had to tweak my shape MANY times.  What I have found is that some designers take better care in crafting the standard sizes than others.  So, I have started ignoring some designers (even though the item may be well-textured) because I have issues with their alpha layers or their 'standard size' does not fit without me tweaking the standard size I use.

 

[Ariel Vuissent]

Very well said and illustrated!

I do agree with another poster that if your body shape is further off from the standard sizes, or rather if your boy shape conforms to more than one of the standard sizes, depending which are you're talking about - the changes necessary can be rather large. I changed my shape not too terribly long ago to conform to standard sizes, and had to change very little to fit into the XS. (I think I changed the relevant sliders no more than 5 degrees a piece.) I do remember noticing, though, that my lower half was closer to a S and my upper half to an XS!

It works sometimes for separates, depending on the fit. Not so well for dresses. But it is interesting how many different shapes can actually be created while still staying inside the constraints of standard sizing. The downside is that if you have a shape you already love that doesn't fit inside that sizing easily, you're still left with having to change your shape to fit, and for some, shape is connected to identity. I know I don't feel the same anymore with a different shape...

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Ariel Vuissent wrote:The downside is that if you have a shape you already love that

doesn't

fit inside that sizing easily, you're still left with having to change your shape to fit, and for some, shape is connected to identity. I know I don't feel the same anymore with a different shape...

 

---

^^^^^  This   ^^^^^

Some of the girls I date feel very strongly about this.  Really, very few of the girls I date wear mesh.

And I've gotten so used to them looking a certain way that when they wear Mesh and use Alphas to hide there normal shape, they don't feel like the same person to me.

In RL we talk about an outfit 'flattering' a woman's body.  Overall the standard sizes don't do that.

 

[Perrie Juran]

Commenting on my own post here, I'm not sure why this discussion always focuses on women or the female shape.

Men also want to look 'good.'  At least I know this man does.

In RL I choose clothes that I think 'flatter' me.  I'm not the most fashion conscious person on the planet.  I'm primarily a T-shirt kind of guy in my daily out and about.   But even when picking a T-shirt I think about 'does this look good on me.'

In my profession I was required by the companies I worked for to wear a tie.  I used to puzzle over ties.  They were always uncomfortable to wear, especiallly when it was hot.  Never understood the point in them until someone pointed out to me that a tie is a man's "make up."  A well chosen tie can actually bring out a man's features.  I choose the ones that I think best 'flatter' me.

 

 

[Madeline Blackbart]

 

 

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Tarina Sewell wrote:

Right exactly, no avatar on SL should be fat, store fat or be anything but stick/bow legged.

---

Yes because if you look at my avatar who wears a size M or L (sometimes xl if the designer makes there sizes weird) She is CLEARLY a bowlegged stick..... CLEARLY!

[Rhys Goode]

So a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Hmmmm.  How to test the hypothesis.

To use the standard definition, I would need to build something like an atomic beam.  Sadly no one in SL seems to able to supply the needed isotopes of caesium or rubidium.  

Now I really dont care get the 10th decimal place, so simpler methods are available.  I actually used a He-Ne laser to accurately measure the distance between two optical flats once.  Sadly, no listings in world for working lasers.  And you need to use things like invar and zerodur for the cavity, or else thermal stability will be an issue.  Again, I strike out on Market Place.

OK, so maybe I can settle for a simple reference object.  I have a meter stick by my desk, but I can't figure out how to import it into SL.

Sigh.  I guess we have to resort to astronomy.  After all, the original definition was one ten millionth of the distance from the equator to the north pole, and we can easily determine the length of a unit rod by measuring the length of their shadows at local noon on the same day, but at different latitudes.  Back in the day, this required a lot of coordination to get the timing down, but with TP in SL, its dead nuts easy!  We do need to know the diameter of the earth for this, but that's easy enough to Google.

OMG!!  I tried this in different widely separated sims.   The shadow lengths are always the same.  This world is FLAT!   Something is profoundly different about the world of SL.  

I'm afraid I have no way of checking to see if a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Given the size of every objects like furniture, houses, and people, I strongly suspect that there the SL meter is stretched a bit with respect to the RL meter, but  I can think of no way to tell for sure.

[Tari Landar]

I don't wear 99.9% of the mesh I try on. Why? Because my body isn't only a couple numbers off on some of those sliders. Some areas of my body will fit one size, while others fit another. It's annoying. Especially with things like tops, and dresses.

I have the shape I have because I like it. I created it  to the proportions I wanted. The only person that got any input on how my body was going to look is my hubby. And the reason he got input is because I actually value his opinion. I'm not saying that to be snarky yo creators, because I do value them a lot, but I don't value their opinion on how my body should look. Much in the same way that I don't buy certain types of clothing because it's just not me. It's not my taste, it's not who I am, it's not a look I identify with. That opinion is also why I don't wear pre-made shapes. So it's not a knock on them as much as it is a choice to be the av I want to be, not the av someone else wants me to be. Hopefully that makes sense.

That's how I feel about mesh. I feel even more strongly about mesh because such a vast majority of creators use those same "standard" sizes that they really are missing out on a large, imo, number of people who would love to own their stuff. I'd buy more mesh if more sizes were available, or at least, different ones. Some of it is so very well made and beautiful, but it looks fugly on me because I'm not standard. I actually have personal issues with that word, so, it will probably come off a lot more aggressive sounding than it should. I don't believe there should be a standard when it comes to sizes in sl. Because I believe sl to be a very unique place, and the unique nature of the people, the atmosphere, the general feel is what drew me back to sl in 2008, and kept me here, after leaving twice before(in 04 and 06). There's just something so, I don't know, awesome I suppose, about seeing individuality and unique styles, unique body styles even, I just like it. Even styles that might make me giggle because I'd never in a million years try that myself. I still think it's kinda cool to see them. Mesh standard sizing, does take a bit of that away. I'd be lying if I said I enjoyed even the thought of that, much less the actual act.

I really don't think the majority of sl will fit in the the standard sizes without having to adjust certain sliders more than a few numbers. I really don't. I don't buy the whole "we asked and got about 700 replies..this is what people want". When the daily concurrency is over 40k(whether or not you think this is a huge number, is irrelevant) 700 people is really a tiny drop in the bucket. Yet this is the answer people give when asked "where the heck did the standard sizes come from". They always say "the majority gave their numbers". Well, no, they didn't. You asked a specific set of people, in specific circles, and got answers that, frankly, are actually quite close to one another. I'd love to see all the responses that were given, All the measurements people sent in. I am willing to bet a lot of them were pretty darn close to one another, if not the same. I have friends in the fashion industry, including some who make mesh and use these standard sizes too, I have friends in those fashion circles, I have friends in the modeling industry that all responded to this(and I know their measurements, as some of them have been my test dummies for creations) and there IS a typical body type among them. But if you go out into the rest of sl, outside of those specific places.....there isn't a typical anything.

I know that was long. I am not trying to knock creators. I think they do a fine job actually, superb even, in most cases. I think a lot of them cater to the standard sizes because some people started that trend and now a lot of the people that buy mesh expect  those specific standard sizes, because they've already altered their shape(s) to fit them. I feel bad for people who want to buy mesh, want to wear mesh, or will in the future, but can't because it's just not made for them. I also feel bad for mesh creators that go out of the "standard norm" realm. Maybe feel bad isn't really the right term, because I guess I feel bad more for the creators than anything. As they're missing out on the rest of the market. I see some mesh that is absolutely stunning. But I can't wear it. Why? Because I have boobs that aren't mesh(and no I'm not buying mesh boobs, I like the ones I have, lol), and are as close to mimmicking my rl chest as I can get in sl. When I've tried to wear mesh, I have to change the slider more than a couple numbers, in fact, changing their entire shape. That's not my chest anymore, that's some other person's idea of what a person wearing a size(insert whatever size) should be, in the chest area. Then I have to adjust some other sliders, usually more than a few numbers too. Then I get frustrated and give up. Just because my face doesn't change, or some other sliders don't change, does not in any way mean I still look the same. My overall shape, is me, that's how I look. Changing any of them, especially more than a few numbers, alters the way I look. Some people are cool with it, don't mind, even create shapes specifically for mesh. I think that's great, for them. For me...mesh is just not an option. At least not until I can master it myself...and mesh and I have been squabbling for some time now, so it'll be a while before I figure that one out But I love my non mesh clothes anyway, so it's all good.

I feel bad for men too because I've seen some of the men's standard sizes and, well, they're just as bad. Hubby wears absolutely no mesh, and I don't blame him. I guess we're just not standard people

[Melita Magic]

I'm like the non PC Barbie doll. "I hate math."

I don't want to do math just to log in to Second Life. Mesh is way too hard to understand. When I was a kid and picked up a Barbie, I just picked it up and changed its clothes. I didn't have to change its body first.

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Rhys Goode wrote:

So a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Hmmmm.  How to test the hypothesis.

To use the standard definition, I would need to build something like an atomic beam.  Sadly no one in SL seems to able to supply the needed isotopes of caesium or rubidium.  

Now I really dont care get the 10th decimal place, so simpler methods are available.  I actually used a He-Ne laser to accurately measure the distance between two optical flats once.  Sadly, no listings in world for working lasers.  And you need to use things like invar and zerodur for the cavity, or else thermal stability will be an issue.  Again, I strike out on Market Place.

OK, so maybe I can settle for a simple reference object.  I have a meter stick by my desk, but I can't figure out how to import it into SL.

Sigh.  I guess we have to resort to astronomy.  After all, the original definition was one ten millionth of the distance from the equator to the north pole, and we can easily determine the length of a unit rod by measuring the length of their shadows at local noon on the same day, but at different latitudes.  Back in the day, this required a lot of coordination to get the timing down, but with TP in SL, its dead nuts easy!  We do need to know the diameter of the earth for this, but that's easy enough to Google.

OMG!!  I tried this in different widely separated sims.   The shadow lengths are always the same.  This world is FLAT!   Something is profoundly different about the world of SL.  

I'm afraid I have no way of checking to see if a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Given the size of every objects like furniture, houses, and people, I strongly suspect that there the SL meter is stretched a bit with respect to the RL meter, but  I can think of no way to tell for sure.

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What you aren't taking into account for in your post is that Second Life as it 'exists' is a Scale Model (pops). 

Any one who builds scale models understands this.  We use a 1:1 ratio when we build our Models.  It is very simple math, for instance 1CM = 1M. 

But what happenned when SL came into being is they inserted an Avatar with a base line that measured to tall.  And every one built around that Avatar using an unspecifeid ratio.  (Actually it is about 7:5 but it varies from creator to creator).

If the baseline height of that Avatar had been corrected at the very beginning we would not be having any of these discussions.

The SL Meter is a scaled meter.  It is not random, it is a fixed measurement.  If it were random you couldn't build a computer big enough to handle all the computational variables that would come into play.

If the measurement wasn't fixed, how could your computer know what to do with it to take into account different screen sizes and resolutions?  You'd be looking at Picasso Paintings all day long when you tried to use SL if it wasn't a fixed measurement.  The grid itself that SL is built on is a 1:1 scale model based on the meter.

[Madeline Blackbart]

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Melita Magic wrote:

I'm like the non PC Barbie doll. "I hate math."

I don't want to do math just to log in to Second Life. Mesh is way too hard to understand. When I was a kid and picked up a Barbie, I just picked it up and changed its clothes. I didn't have to change its body first.

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TBH I've despise math (always been bad at it) But I've done zero math to get it mesh to work. I just eyeballed the sizes a bit until the mesh fit. No need to even look at the numbers ont he sliders...I'm way to lazy for that in shape making!

[Coby Foden]

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Rhys Goode wrote: 

I'm afraid I have no way of checking to see if a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Given the size of every objects like furniture, houses, and people, I strongly suspect that there the SL meter is stretched a bit with respect to the RL meter, but  I can think of no way to tell for sure.

---

Ah, the way how to check the relationship of the meter was given in the other thread. :matte-motes-big-grin:

Why most everything is bigger in SL than in RL?  Is the SL meter "stretched"?

Well, it went like this:

1.  The default avatar was made taller than the average human in RL is.

2.  Some people preferred to make their avatar even taller than the default - for various reasons.

3.  Making tall avatars became popular.  Many men didn't want to be shorter than the next guy. :smileywink:

4.  It was noticed that RL sized furniture, houses, vehicles were too small for the very tall avatars.

5.  So the designers made their stuff 1.5 some even 2 times bigger than things in RL.

So it is nothing to do with SL dimensions being "off" in relation to RL dimensions.  It is just that most everything just IS made bigger than in RL.  The SL meter is not streched in any way.  Phew... :smileyhappy:

Then, who are we to blame for the gigantism in SL?

Naturally the default avatar - being taller than average human - that is the quilty one.    :smileytongue:

 

Maybe the early historic avatar was hanging on a tree for too long time and thus stretched themself too tall? :smileysurprised:

  Help!

[Melita Magic]

I go by eye also when in SL. Most builds in SL are large to allow for easy flying indoors. Also the standard size furniture has continued from early days of SL, as the housing sizes have. People made their avatars to fit that. If you were your real life height, you would look like a speck. People who want to be specks usually became a Tiny avatar.

Now we have all sorts of sizes in avatars, so I don't know what will become the norm. Maybe it will be different on every sim.

[Cerridwen Magic]

Likes mesh accessories.  Hates mesh clothes because the standard sizes someone created out of the blue air only fit a certain body type. Doesn't buy them, won't wear them, won't change my shape for them.

[Charli Infinity]

Good thread. Some people make it sound like they will be exact identical clones with standard sizing when the truth is only a few sliders are affected.

[Madeline Blackbart]

yeah exactly. And on top of that there are other sliders that can give a similar effect tot he ones you can't use anymore for mesh. Like the body thickness slider to get a thicker avie instead of body fat.

[Madeline Blackbart]

actually I did measure my avie to be real life hieght via a prim. I am not really a speck just very short compared to a lot of things in sl. Speck I would say not.

[Melita Magic]

Wasn't calling you a speck - wasn't even thinking about you or anyone in specific when I posted that.

I was talking about SL's early days and why avs in general were scaled taller (aside from the avatars themselves.)

I honestly don't see why this height thing is so touchy and controversial in SL, though. When will people stop telling other people what height and measurement and shape to be? That's to the topic Mad. by the way. Not to you.

[Keriwena]

But the 'body thickness' slider makes you look "big-boned", not like you ate a lot of cupcakes. It's really not the same.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Rhys Goode wrote:

So a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Hmmmm.  How to test the hypothesis.

To use the standard definition, I would need to build something like an atomic beam.  Sadly no one in SL seems to able to supply the needed isotopes of caesium or rubidium.  

Now I really dont care get the 10th decimal place, so simpler methods are available.  I actually used a He-Ne laser to accurately measure the distance between two optical flats once.  Sadly, no listings in world for working lasers.  And you need to use things like invar and zerodur for the cavity, or else thermal stability will be an issue.  Again, I strike out on Market Place.

OK, so maybe I can settle for a simple reference object.  I have a meter stick by my desk, but I can't figure out how to import it into SL.

Sigh.  I guess we have to resort to astronomy.  After all, the original definition was one ten millionth of the distance from the equator to the north pole, and we can easily determine the length of a unit rod by measuring the length of their shadows at local noon on the same day, but at different latitudes.  Back in the day, this required a lot of coordination to get the timing down, but with TP in SL, its dead nuts easy!  We do need to know the diameter of the earth for this, but that's easy enough to Google.

OMG!!  I tried this in different widely separated sims.   The shadow lengths are always the same.  This world is FLAT!   Something is profoundly different about the world of SL.  

I'm afraid I have no way of checking to see if a meter in SL is exactly the same as a meter in RL.  Given the size of every objects like furniture, houses, and people, I strongly suspect that there the SL meter is stretched a bit with respect to the RL meter, but  I can think of no way to tell for sure.

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Actually, since Second Life approaches we observers at the speed of light, everything in it is infinitely small.