Unhappy tall

[Melita Magic]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

This is Second Life, a place to explore what we can't in Real Life. If you want to be 7 feet tall with boobs the size of watermelons or a cute curvy 5'4" cowgirl, go for it. !

---

THIS.

And Penny, no, NOT everyone sees things the same way! Your OPINION is not FACT, no matter how many times you try to present it as such.

ETA: I studied art. You are not telling me anything new about artists' proportions, symmetry, etc. That is NOT the point I am making! And using wikipedia and google to prove a point...sigh. The proof is in the pudding. Look around SL, you will see what people like. Some apparently like unrealistic avatars and asymmetry. Some like exaggeration. If you are not trying to impose ONE standard then what is your measurement spiel about? Why do you dominate any topic like this one with the same speech? Reminds me a lot of someone else who used to do it and ironically neither person had a 'realistic' avatar themselves.

[Alicia Sautereau]

I`ll cut the discussion short: No one`s taste is the same

 

There, done

[Keriwena]

The real question is, "Does Second Life make my ass look fat?"

 

And the answer is, "Yes!"

 

 

Decrying Penny's references, and claiming all she presents is merely "opinion" suggests your art school education was exactly that. Humans have a very deep-seated urge to turn the brains of those who look almost like them, but not quite, into apple sauce. That may be why you're descended from a Cro-Magnon, not a Neanderthal. Second Life is in competition with other 3D venues, and if Newbies find their avatars in other venues somehow subtly more pleasing, Second Life's attendance will suffer. That's a fact, and Penny's right.

 

It has nothing to do with taste, whether you're pleased with your current avatar, or your creative freedoms.

[Melita Magic]

---

Keriwena wrote:

The real question is, "Does Second Life make my ass look fat?"

 

And the answer is, "Yes!"

 

 

Decrying Penny's references, and claiming all she presents is merely "opinion" suggests your art school education was exactly that. Humans have a very deep-seated urge to turn the brains of those who look almost like them, but not quite, into apple sauce. That may be why you're descended from a Cro-Magnon, not a Neanderthal. Second Life is in competition with other 3D venues, and if Newbies find their avatars in other venues somehow subtly more pleasing, Second Life's attendance will suffer. That's a fact, and Penny's right.

 

It has nothing to do with taste, whether you're pleased with your current avatar, or your creative freedoms.

---

I never said I had an "art school education." Way to patronize.

Skimming over the rest as I tend to ignore people who've just insulted me...

Did you also not understand my point? I wasn't talking about whether such a thing as perspective and proportion exist. I was talking about one person appointing themslves arbiter of same. (Over, and over, and over again.)

Doesn't matter how many people agree on what is "aesthetically pleasing" or how many google pages or "studies" are pulled up. There will always be people who like something else (Alicia put it succinctly; as I tried to originally.) Who is anyone else to tell them they are wrong?

 

[Keriwena]

Please, show us all where Penny told anyone their taste was wrong.

 

And while you're at it, you might want to apologise to those who did go to art school.

[Madeline Blackbart]

I went to art school does this mean she owes me an apology. lolz

 

EDIT for sarcasm clarity: I don't see how melita said anything insulting to those who went to art school. She has a point to some people there shape will be attractive even if all the studies int he world (and perhaps other people in world) say diffrent. Though I will admit the response to penny mayb have come off a bit mean though I don't know if it was intended that way.

 

[Solaria Goldshark]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

---

Penny Patton wrote:

---

Melita Magic wrote:

While it would be nice if things like the thigh bone on the SL shape could be shortened, people should also keep in mind that

not everyone has the same values

, no matter what the base shape's mathematical values are. 

One person's perfect is another person's "OMG that is ugly."

---

I'm not certain how that applies to scale. If you have two identical avatars, one 5' and one 8', one is not intrinsically more attractive than the other, no matter who you show the screenshots to. Without anything to compare them to, they're identical. Size is relative, measurements are objective.

 

 You could say this of proportions, but even there no one is saying options should be limited or restricted in any way (the opposite is actually true as better defaults allow for more creativity), only pointing out that there are body proportions that are considered more natural and attractive and that LL would be able to drawn in more people if the base, starting shapes and avatars reflected those widely accepted proportions and then let the users change their individual proportions as they saw fit.

 And to clarify my last post, I'm agreeing with Perrie that this is an issue the average user shouldn't need to be bothered with. The information should be out there, available to those who want it, but the responsibility for addressing the problem itself really falls to the Lindens and, to a lesser extent, content creators.

---

Really, the last thing I want to think about when I Log In is all thi stechno mumbo jumbo.

AllI want to do is just have fun!

 

 

---

Log in, have fun, plug and play.  Oh that would be so nice.  But then again....

I've actually started to play with the avatar shape scales as Penny describes, both here and in her blog, and it is kind of funny how I can make two shapes and keep relative proportions the same whether I have an overall height slider of 10 or 60, depending on how I set the other sliders, legs, torso, neck, head etc.  From a plug and play perspective it's definitely not user friendly.  Then on top of all that, add your mesh outfits, your mesh boobies, fingernails, various attachments, shoes, belts, jewelry.  No matter what size or shape anyone chooses to be, take all these variables, throw them all together, and when you come across an avatar with any complexity, that is well thought out and meticulously put together, shake their hand and give them a ribbon, because you damn well know that it took them a good long while to get it looking just right......

...then add to all of that the insecurity someone might feel when contemplating their height, their look, as compared to other avatars they encounter.  It can be, I suppose, socially awkward, perhaps making some to even give up.  As it is right now, it really is hard for someone new coming here to achieve a decent look.  It can take a lot of time.  Many people are not going to take the time to learn all of it, resulting in a user lost, perhaps forever.  And that is the sad part.

I'll have to agree that the default is fooked from the get go, and since it is, the average user doesn't have knowledge of this going in, or even how to fix the damn thing, which leads to confusion down the line when they begin to wonder why they can't make themselves look like others around them, some will muddle through, find the answers and come out on top...others will just give up.....when all they really want to do is have some fun.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Solaria Goldshark wrote:

 

Log in, have fun, plug and play.  Oh that would be so nice.  But then again....

 

---

 

Is that what kids are calling it these days?

[Penny Patton]

---

Keriwena wrote:

Please, show us all where Penny told anyone their taste was wrong.

 

---

Exactly this.

I have been very clear on my position. Melita is shadow boxing. Creating arguments herself, then attributing them to me. Attacking arguments I never made to begin with.

I don't believe she is doing this intentionly, I believe she is just misinterpreting what I said and projecting assumptions as a result, but I am not sure I can explain myself more clearly.

I'll try it once more.

First and foremost, I believe the issues of avatar size and proportion are not issues the average user should ever need to think about, these are issues Linden Lab themselves should be addressing and content creators should keep in mind. However, I do believe information about these issues should be available to those who want it.

Sepcificlally regarding size, there are practical considerations. To put it simply, larger avatars who own land must pay more tier for the exact same experience of a smaller avatar. Building to scale allows for more detailed sims that feel substantially larger. Encouraging that does not prevent people from being giants if they wish, in fact it grants them the ability to do so as is not currently possible.

Second, human proportion is well understood, as is what people generally consider appealing in a human body. LL could use that knowledge to create starter avatars potential SL users are more likely to consider appealing, resulting in  more sign-ups and better user retention. This does not mean forcing all avatars into a cookie-cutter ideal body type, it just means providing a variety of starter avatar body types covering a range which new users are more likely to find visually appealing.

 Providing good base shapes to start from also makes it easier for people to personalize those shapes in ways they, as individuals, would find more appealing. As I do not argue for the removal or restriction of the appearance tools, everyone would still have every bit as much freedom to exaggerate body shapes in any way they saw fit and all currently available shapes would remain available within SL. LL would never do anything to alter existing avatar shapes and I do not believe they should.

I also believe LL could improve the appearance tools to make them easier to use, again without sacrificing the freedom we enjoy to alter shapes. Ideally I would like to see the addition of a "scale" slider which allowed one to resize their avatar while maintaining their current proportions. I also recommend a front end to the appearance options which allow people to choose a body type, from a selection covering a variety of body types. that people could choose as a starting point. It is easier to create a muscly super hero shape if you start with something near that, rather than a shape nothing like that. In my appearance editor, people would choose their starting point, then access the sliders, the same sliders we use now, to personalize it. Not everyone has the same amount of artistic skill for creating shapes, anything that makes it easier without sacrificing freedom should be welcome.

 

[Melita Magic]

---

Keriwena wrote:

Please, show us all where Penny told anyone their taste was wrong.

 

And while you're at it, you might want to apologise to those who

did

go to art school.

---

A sock puppet said whut?

Penny you are one to accuse me of shadow boxing? 

A relentless agenda, relentless self promotion in this forum going on for weeks, months even, then disingenuousness and distraction in reply? Right. I'm shadow boxing.

Not going to read your wall of text, I read enough to see you are self justifying and denying. Whatever. To put it plainly, yes you ARE telling people what to look like, right down to saying "here is a LINK TO MY MARKETPLACE PAGE" and giving them starters! Your starters. You aren't speaking to the general subject, you are promoting yourself as the solution.

Again and again and again and again and again! And now denying it. 

I was about to say sorry for losing my temper a bit but the reason is the debate tactic. Smoke and mirrors. Either that or you are in complete denial about  your own agenda. 

Same as Keriwena of 11 total posts including this thread, is doing now, with the "apologize to art students." What? LMAO. I wasn't criticizing any art students or their education. I have a lot of friends in that category. I was reacting to your dismissive wave of the hand and the tone with which YOU said "art school education." But it isn't rocket science to figure out basic proportions anyway. What I was saying to Penny was, she doesn't need to talk to me like I am an idiot who can't google, and google is not an oracle anyway. Basic proportions are common sense.

I find it insulting to all other residents that one resident is setting themselves up, using SL forums to do so, as some sort of guru on the topic. And she doesn't seem to use her kit herself, not only that but, I don't see perfection or a golden mean in her shapes she publicizes almost daily *in her posts against forum rules* either. But I was really trying hard not to go there. And I'm still holding back.

Keriwena you made it personal with your little jabs, you are not adding to the topic, you're mounting a sock puppet defense of Penny as a person. I made some valid points, there are forum rules against self promotion, linking to your own marketplace page or shop in your posts, etc. I've been watching those be flouted for weeks, without saying anything. One day I had enough. It's that simple.

Penny how can you say you are not imposing your taste on anyone else when you are giving them a martrix, a system for making their avatar? I can't debate with people who are just going to outright lie.

[Melita Magic]

---

Penny Patton wrote:

By people in general.

We see this in our everyday lives and there have been multiuple studies into human proportion and what people find attractive dating back at least 2,000 years. Artists and scientists both have been exploring the issue and found that while, individually, our preferences might be skewed one way or another, there are broad generalizations which can be made about what people find attractive. Symmetrical faces, low hips to bust ratio, etcetera.

Here's a wikipedia article on it

, but you can also

google "studies on attractive proportions"

and find a lot.

What the eye finds "natural" can be even more defined. Human proportion is well known and understood. For example, if you stretch your arms out to either side and measure that "wingspan" you will find it is very near equal to your height when measured from the bottom of your feet to the top of your head.

 If you saw someone with a wingspan significantly shorter or longer than that, say eight inches shorter/longer, you would notice it in real life, and you would find it extremely odd. It looks unnatural and disconcerting to the eye because it almost never happens.

---

Replying by paragraph.

1. No, Penny, by you. You are the one who is here stumping for a certain type of avatar (short, "realistic" as you define realistic for Second Life)

2. Small hip to bust ratio? Actually what studies show is preferred is the waist to hip ratio being on the higher end rather than the lower end of the scale. It's only very recently that people seem to prefer big boobs and small "hips" (did you mean butt or hip width?) and even that isn't in all cultures. Symmetrical faces, yes, in real life and in art, among other preferences in those fields. But what you keep ignoring about the point I'm making is that this is not real life and this is not a painting. This is Second Life and it has its own aesthetic rules!

3.  Wiki and Google are not infallible oracles. They are tools someone can use to prove a point they are making, ignoring all other evidence.

4. Opinion masquerading as fact. As to the 'wingspan' measurement (fingertip to fingertip) is there a person on this side of the digital divide who is not familiar with that da Vinci drawing? Again, though, that does not mean that people have to follow that 'rule' in Second Life. Period! What I am arguing with is not that it is true of real life humans but that people in SL do not have to follow that or any other aesthetic rule, let alone, have someone insist repeatedly in this forum that they must use their way of interpreting that rule, right down to the building blocks and matrix for it. I am still not sure why that point is being lost here. Totally different topics. 

5. It doesn't happen in real life because real life has rules of physics and such. And actually I did know some people that was true of but that's another story, and yes it does happen, but people call it 'birth defect' and such. Same goes for actual wings: A large creature could have teeny tiny wings and fly here, or no wings at all. Doesn't matter because real life does not have to apply in Second Life. That's my point along with, yes you are obviously promoting your taste for 'realistic avatars' by insisting these things matter and that people should make their avatars according to those rules.

I don't care if that is your own or anyone else's preference; but to say you haven't been promoting it or insisting it's 'the natural way' is disingenuous. That's what got my dander up yesterday and again today, but, you know, as I said, it's so obvious it's a case of lie or denial, I don't know which but it's a spectacular example of one or the other in my opinion.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Keriwena wrote:

Please, show us all where Penny told anyone their taste was wrong.

 

And while you're at it, you might want to apologise to those who

did

go to art school.

---

1.) I'll be glad to - the default avatars are not made by Linden Lab, they were provided by in-world content providers whose names are on the content. The only Linden Lab provided shape is "Ruth", whose face is not her fortune but who is basically proportional, including having hands and feet that are NOT nubbins, and who is only a few inches taller than the average RL human female. Therefore, any difference from Ruth among the default avatars was a choice made due to the taste of a real-world creator. Ergo, Penny is telling those creators that their taste is wrong. You're welcome.

2.) If you consider fashion design programs to be art school you should take into account that fashion illustrations are wildly non-human-proportional and have been for decades.  I don't see a problem with fashion-oriented people creating 3D versions of these super-leggy sketches - it's actually less troublesome than. say, trying to turn tall RL teenage girls into basically skinny gay men

[Dresden Ceriano]

When and where has Penny ever said that everyone has to take her advice when shaping their avatar?

The fact that she always presents her case in a clear cohesive fashion and makes it obvious that her position is something which she feels strongly enough about to continually advocate, doesn't automatically turn her into some sort of shape-nazi, like you're trying to paint her out to be.  Seems to me like she's merely trying to both educate people and state her opinion about what she thinks is wrong and what it would take to make SL a better place... you know, like most everyone else here.

...Dres

[Drake1 Nightfire]

 

Truer words were never spoken...

 

 

ETA.. after watching the whole video, i realize.... DAMN YOU PIERRE!!!!

[Dresden Ceriano]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Keriwena wrote:

Please, show us all where Penny told anyone their taste was wrong.

 

And while you're at it, you might want to apologise to those who

did

go to art school.

---

1.) I'll be glad to - the default avatars are not made by Linden Lab, they were provided by in-world content providers whose names are on the content. The only Linden Lab provided shape is "Ruth", whose face is not her fortune but who is basically proportional, including having hands and feet that are NOT nubbins, and who is only a few inches taller than the average RL human female. Therefore, any difference from Ruth among the default avatars was a choice made due to the taste of a real-world creator. Ergo, Penny is telling those creators that their taste is wrong. You're welcome.

2.) If you consider fashion design programs to be art school you should take into account that fashion illustrations are wildly non-human-proportional and have been for decades.  I don't see a problem with fashion-oriented people creating 3D versions of these super-leggy sketches - it's actually less troublesome than. say, trying to turn tall RL teenage girls into basically skinny gay men

---

Hey! you got something against skinny gay men? :smileyvery-happy:

...Dres (Btw, Penny has never said anything disparaging about anyone's taste.  But by all means, please continue putting words in her mouth in your feeble attempt to vilify her.)

[Suspiria Finucane]

I would say I'm Happy Tall. It's nice to know I have some company at 6'2". :matte-motes-wink:

[Jo Yardley]

I'm 6ft in RL and in SL and I went to... Film School!
I think that means I just won this discussion.

Keep up the good fight Penny.

 

[Azanor]

Perhaps some people are worried we may get better tools for editing Avis, once people start taking advantage of those tools the bizzare world they enjoy to be in may come to an end.

[Coby Foden]

Vaino Myllyrinne (1909 - 1963), the tallest Finnish man.
2.48 meters = 8.13648 feet ( = 8 ft  1⅝ in)  [About the SL male avatar maximum height] :smileywink:

It has been written:

"Myllyrinne said that his life was very difficult, at times downright hell. The children ran after him in droves, and the adults stared at him like some another planet creature. He just had to accept the people's never-ending staring and hollering."

His sister had said "He wasn't happy about his height.  I think that he would have preferred to be like other people were."

That was a very unhappy tall.  :smileysad:

And what do many people do in SL?  For some mysterious reason they make their avatars very tall.  Then they make their house huge so that they can fit in comfortably.  Naturally as the houses are huge and avatars are huge the furniture must be huge.  And all other things must be huge too.

Well, there is one advantage - for Linden Lab.  All those huge things need a lot more land than normal sized things would do.  So, more land sales income to the Lab $$$$.  Yay!  :matte-motes-big-grin:

/me thinks this is a secret thing intentionally done by the Lab - big default avatar, more income in the end.  :smileytongue:  :smileywink:

[Azanor]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

/me thinks this is a secret thing intentionally done by the Lab - big default avatar, more income in the end.  :smileytongue:  :smileywink:

---

Do you know what happens to those who try to dig into these secrets? One day you disappear and we can't even find your name in the records again.

So :matte-motes-zipped: 

[Penny Patton]

---

Azanor wrote:

Perhaps some people are worried we may get better tools for editing Avis, once people start taking advantage of those tools the bizzare world they enjoy to be in may come to an end.

---

I think you may be right, but the irony is the exact opposite of that reasoning is true. The better the tools and the greater our understanding of how the tools work, the more we can do with them and let our imaginations soar.

---

Coby Foden wrote:

Well, there is one advantage - for Linden Lab.  All those huge things need a lot more land than normal sized things would do.  So, more land sales income to the Lab $$$$.  Yay!  :matte-motes-big-grin:

/me thinks this is a secret thing intentionally done by the Lab - big default avatar, more income in the end.  :smileytongue:  :smileywink:

---

I've heard this before. I don't believe this was LL's original motivation, I'm certain they simply did not put any thought at all into visual design. LL has never employed artists to have any sort of input on SL's development. Even the avatar mesh itself was purchased and then modified by a programmer rather than an artist (hence all of the issues it suffers).

 I could certainly see them believing this now, but it does not actually reflect reality. 

 It's basic economics that people will pay what they are willing and able. The law of supply and demand. If someone is willing and able to buy a full private region, then later you give that person four times as much land resources for no extra cost, that person will not sell off 3/4 of that and then use only what resources they had originally, they are already paying what they are willing and able to pay, so instead they will use those additional resources themselves.

 The flip side of that is when a person is only willing to pay X amount, but the amount of land they can purchase for X amount does not seem like a good value, they will choose not to purchase at all. They are not getting enough value for their dollar to make it worth it.

 If you increase the value of that amount of land, to the point where those only willing to pay X amount do see it as a good value, then you increase your paying customer base to include all those people you are currently losing right now.

 In most markets, how much value the company is willing to imbue in its product is limited to the amount of money they are willing to invest in their product. With land and LL, they could drastically increase the value of land at no cost to themselves. The only reason they don't is because they are extremely deficient when it comes to understanding their own product and how it works.