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WhiteRabbit0

MESH DEFORMER PROJECT NEEDS YOUR VOICE

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Hello fellow designer!

MESH CLOTHES THAT ACTUALLY FIT EVERY AVATAR SHAPE AUTOMATICALLY ARE POSSIBLE, HERE AND NOW.
No more standard sizing debacles, no more customers complaining your stuff doesn't fit them, and to top it all off, it makes mesh clothes move with avatar physics.

If we can just convince Linden Lab to stop being stupid and release it.  Please let your voice be heard and demand they integrate the Mesh Deformer into the viewer as a high priority.

THE MESH DEFORMER IS DONE, TESTED AND PERFORMS EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.  WE JUST NEED THE COMMUNITY TO DEMAND IT'S RELEASE LOUD ENOUGH FOR LINDEN LABS TO HEAR.

For the past year and a half the development community has been testing and refining the "Mesh deformer" beta.  It is an AMAZING project that automatically fits all mesh clothes to any avatar shape, eliminating the need for "standard sizing" and a whole host of other difficulties and annoyances with mesh clothes in SL right now.  Avatar Physics also works with mesh deformer enabled clothes, enabling a whole host of sexy new products that move and adjust with avatar physics.  If you thought the Lolas Tango breasts were a revolution, just imagine them with physics enabled, and adjustable with the avatar shape slider!  That is what the mesh deformer does.  It works, we've tested it for 6 months now.

Demo video of the deformer in action :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ0JJXmOBwc

Note the precision that it fits without even using an alpha layer.


But we have a problem, Linden Labs couldn't recognize something that enables creativity if it slapped them in the face.  Repeatedly.  Not to mention them failing to realize the potential growth in the SL economy.  So they have put this amazing project on HOLD.

They are refusing to dedicate the small amount of staff to get this FULLY FUNCTIONAL AND COMPLETELY TESTED project into the standard viewer.  So that is where you, the fashion and design community comes in.

We need your voice.

Post on this thread, post on the project JIRA here : https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-1716   

Edit 2: Nalates is right, this forum thread now contains most of the information needed to understand the deformer project.  The JIRA is almost 100 pages long.

Email a Linden, do anything to raise the awareness of this project.

Please and thank you,

-White Rabbit

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Great, bouncing giant boobs, priority -100%, if people knew how stupid they look with it you`d have taken another example as now i`m glad it`s not implemented yet :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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Heh, I picked something the community seemed to pick up on as "important'.  Those breasts caught on like wildfire, so I used them as an example.  Personally I'd use it to rework the entire avatar to not have such godawful joints and cuts and stretches during animations, there's 1000's of uses if LL would just implement it.

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I know, scratch another failed joke :matte-motes-bashful:

Stupid they didn`t implement it and decided to mess with the stupid chat window, the good `ol LL prioritizing...

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WhiteRabbit0 wrote:

 

THE MESH DEFORMER IS DONE, TESTED AND PERFORMS EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.  WE JUST NEED THE COMMUNITY TO DEMAND IT'S RELEASE LOUD ENOUGH FOR LINDEN LABS TO HEAR.

 

 

If you think this is the case, take a step back and look at the situation. Why on earth would LL NOT implement it if it is 100% ready and tested? It makes no sense at all. (Yes I know LL sometimes seems to make little sense).

There has to be a very valid reason why LL is holding it back, performance maybe? You can't make a switch for it to turn it off at lower graphical settings, it has to be on for everyone or LL's "shared experience" is gone. People with high end systems would see a very nice piece of clothing, moving with the avatar, people with a slow computer would see an avatar sticking out of this piece of clothing in about 500 places.

Maybe there's another reason, I don't know.

I would really like to hear from LL why they aren't releasing it, little chance of that I'm afraid. That doesn't mean they don't have a valid reason.

I would also like to see the feature, but only if it works well, for everyone and for the entire grid. It's only been tested by a fraction of the population, not everyone at once.

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I agree Kwakkelde - I really really want a deformer in the standard viewer. I wish it would of been released when mesh was released. But I also am not on the back side of LL seeing what goes on behind the scenes. So I can't really say in protest they are just being jerks and not releasing it for no good reason.

 

I think and have heard of many things that are coming down the pipleline as far as building in SL goes and I think its great. I think the deformer will be one of those things - it is just the natural evolution of the game (as certain 3rd party viewers already have things like that). Yes, I know we all want things fast - or in some cases think they should of come with the release of things like rigged mesh - but life is awesome like that sometimes.


But I def agree - that i would like to hear from LL end why they aren't releasing it yet - or what their plans are before I spend much time raging about it.

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What little scraps of information we recieve are fed only though Nalates Urriah, no public channels.  And Nalates has stated the following,


Nalates Urriah wrote:

  • Resources – people are needed to consider the deformer (
    ) and avatar (
    ) and those people need to be good 3D model people with experience in avatars and models. In short not Oz Linden, a networking guy and open source advocate.
  • Base Avatar – When I wrote my mesh tutorial one of the challenges I had was figuring out what the hell the base avatar was. In the viewer there is an avatar some say was taken/purchased from Poser. It was built into the viewer files. The source is lost somewhere in the hard drives of Linden Lab. Then there is the Ruth/Roth shapes, which are different than the ‘no-shape’ avatar. Then there is what we call the New Avatar Shape, which we get when we create a new shape in the viewer.
    How will a user know which shape was used by the designer?
    Update: Judging from comments this is not clear enough. It seems the Lab is seriously concerned about how END Users of products will know which base shape was used in design.
  • Avatar Weighting and Polygon Layout – JIRA STORM-1800 is about problems with the avatar mesh and weighting. It has an effect on the Deformer’s results and has become associated. Lots has been written about that, so I’m not going to repeat it. Check out the Mesh  category or Deformer tag here if you want more information on that. Also see:
    Avatar_lad.xml having non-symmetrical attachment offsets for several attachment slots
    .




That was a month and a half ago.

 

Then recently:


Nalates Urriah wrote:

I checked with Oz Linden about the Mesh Deformer Test Garments in Hippo Hollow. I wanted him to remove the old garments that do not work with the current deformer.
He prefers not to, being concerned it might signal some action on the Deformer.



So basically Oz is terrified of giving the community the idea that the project is going to move forward at all and is actively limiting the general public's ability to see that the deformer actually works by refusing to have viable test garments available to them.

 I'm terrified she's reporting correctly.

Hence.

Here we are.

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WhiteRabbit0 wrote:

THE MESH DEFORMER IS DONE, TESTED AND PERFORMS EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.

Hmm...  watching the video it is very clear that the deformer does not work "exceptionally well".  There are lots of cloth/body clipping happening in animations.  It is also well known (to those who know the facts) that the way the mesh deformer is working, it can never work perfectly.

If that was released there sure would be lots of angry complaints "Hey, WHY it does not work properly?! :smileymad:"

 

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The fact that LL is trying to make no promises and keep the Deformer project plans hushed should suggest to you all that they already know the community wants it. What good do you think more voices are going to do, exactly?

LL clearly realizes that this isn't something that they must release immediately to avoid a mass exodus of Second Life. How do we put pressure on them to release something they aren't ready to release? From what I understand, the community has never successfully pressured LL into doing anything. It's a bit of a futile exercise, don't you think? The community has absolutely no leverage, here.

It is in everyone's best interest that the Deformer is released and works well, LL included. It will be released -- Let's just be patient.

The new material system is more of an exciting prospect anyway.

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Mass exodus?  That video is taken without her even wearing an alpha layer.  That's how precisely correct it fits.  The deformer is not a magical silver bullet that will remove the need for alphas but it is a 3 fold improvement over the current mesh system.  This has been addressed on the JIRA time and time again, but the JIRA is over 100 pages long, so I don't expect people to read it.  I know a substantial part of this thread will be repeating what has been stated there over again here, but that is fine.  The project is ready for release.

 

Also Oz has repeatedly said this project is low priority because he thought it was evident that the community didn't care about it.  I'm trying to show otherwise, again.

Hence.

Here we are.

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I'm not sure how that was a reply to my comment. I didn't say anything at all about how well the mesh deformer code works. I'm plenty impressed with it.

Frankly, if the project really was ready for release, I'd expect it to be released. Just because the deformer code works doesn't mean it's ready to be released into a production environment where it could potentially do unforseen damage. Perhaps you're right, though. In that case, I'd want to see exactly what Oz has said and what his current stance is. All I've seen is hearsay.

If it really is ready and LL is just arbitrarily dragging it's feet to annoy the community (I doubt it), then I certainly hope your call to action works. I would like to see it released asap, after all. I'm just not going to hold my breath.

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WhiteRabbit0 wrote:

Also Oz has repeatedly said this project is low priority because he thought it was evident that the community didn't care about it.  I'm trying to show otherwise, again.

Can you point to a citation where Oz or Linden labs have said that ? (to clarify: I have no opinion on this topic yet! just curious minded)

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Because Linden Labs has not come out and stated an official position on this project at all, all I can do is quote Nalates Blog, as she is practically the only source of credible information on this matter.

 


Nalates Urriah wrote:

#SL News on the 15
th
I reported I think the Mesh Deformer Project is setting off to the side. I mention that from Oz Linden’s perspective interest in the Deformer has died out. That drew some reaction in several places. Since a couple of days after the article things have picked up. I doubt I did all that. But, people are getting the word out.


There have been other times where it has been mentioned at meetings etc both prior to this and after it, I just can't copy / paste them on demand.

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To add to all the answers: i can just add the inner chaos all the news and the ongoing process put on my own 'building an opinion' about the mesh-deformer:

i've followed and read in the past thorugh that whole JIRA entry for the mesh deformer.
Next to postings with things that need fixes, things that partially work, things that work, additional features (reasonable or not) being requested.. a lot of 'finger-pointing' in all directions is to see. And that is maybe the thing that keeps it stalled the most. No clear announcements from neither side, and everyone pointing fingers at the others.

What i see from Oz 'himself' when he talks is only short requests about files, or that updates have been done, or files were merged into testviewers like CHUI etc. No words of  "we have no interest" or similar. 

Everything else still remains being kind of hear-say and personal interpretations from other sources.
And in general when in doubt i don't like to rely on other sources, imagining how something could have been meant or not.

And correct me if i am wrong, but Nalates just thanked Oz at the 2.nd of April (5 days ago) on the JIRA for the merge and update of the project viewer. So that doesn't really sound like Oz would have no interest at all or ignoring updates and progress. And i think Nalates is normally addressing the community for not being active enough, rather then blaming LL for being unwilling.

So even if just hearsay, it does 'not' sound like ' LL doesn't want' to, but rather has yet to 'officially' announce what exactly is needed, which in turn the deformer-dev.-team wants to see. This is at least how the whole JIRA-chatlog reads, and the point everyone seem to be stuck at.

Even after following the project for a long time and testing things with the provided patches. I am still not sure myself if i find it 'ready to release' or not, or desireable.

Don't get me wrong i think it's a great idea, and i don't want to diminish all the work that has gone into it and all people really working on its success. I just personally can't find it really ready or with a covering-all-needs version 'yet'.

And some things i personally feel missing whilst in progress:
(and not pointing fingers at anyone here, i really wouldn't care which side provides the informations, logs, and precise test stats and values):

orderly documentation, 
what functions will be in it, which will not be.(of all the requested and suggested and discussed)
a clear list of known and / or fixed bugs;
A final decision on which avatar mesh (base mesh) it will be based on.
will there be intense calculational impact - based on actual recordings of test-events, and logs that show how much delay or FPS breaks it is causing based on fix examples and fix testing situations. ( by now all i can read on the JIRA is 'it should / it shouldn't/ it could' but no delivery of clear facts and numbers)
and if so:  Is there any planned solution for people with older hardware - other then just switching it off and leaving those users in the visual jungle of meshes being stuck in and out of avatars -  instead of seeing an orderly deformation.

I just personally don't feel like getting delivered a lot of valid and straight facts about the status ,or clear tests being documented. But that might be just me.

Plus which maybe keeps off my personal interest in it, since i am not really into only making clothing based on the default avatar:

I am not really in need to have clothings or avatars of a different topology react to shape morphs of another model (default avatar). And i feel limited in creativity when i basically need to copy the topology 1-to-1 to make it work absolutely right. This is is allways a not 100% accurate solution. I'd rather like to be able to implement / or upload a limited amount of own shape keys and have those explicitely define which vertices move in which manner to which positions. But that's just my personal dream for a 'perfect solutiion' =)

Long story short, i can't really make up my mind (yet) and it seems many are left with the same feeling, and possibly LL too. But once again i can only guess.

I can however understand both sides: LL for not wanting to release something that feels unfinished, as well as the dev team wanting 'official' announcements from LL and not from other sources  about what exactly is requested. I think there are some people in need to finally get together at one table and talk directly =)

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Codewarrior, while what all of your statements are correct, the core of the project works and is ready for release.  The only other stuff such as restrictions and method of integration into the viewer which is stuff that we need the wonderful folks at Linden Lab to come to a consensus on.  Which involves them actually looking at the project, taking it seriously and having an active conversation with the development community which it would seem they refuse to do due to unknown reasons.  So all I have to go off of is that last post where Oz is worried that the community might get the idea that the project is moving forwards, which is just grim news for me.

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You bring up an interesting point on testing. The Deformer adds almost no additional server load and only a temporary viewer load. So, large group testing for load and lag is probably not an issue or hold up. Oz has always asked about getting a wide sample of various types of garments that represent what designers are making in SL for testing.

Oz Linden has talked about where the project is and what they are doing with it, basically setting it on a shelf and waiting for people that know what they are doing to come off other projects.

Remember. As the project drew toward completion the community started asking for more. Part of the people want everything fixed in one pass, weighting, topology, morphing, animations, adding bones, and generally a better avatar (2,0). Some number of those oppose the Deformer feeling that if we get that, the Lab will stop and never consider avatar 2.0.

It appears their voices had an effect. It looks like the Deformer will not be released until the Lab is sure adding the Deformer will not block the other improvements people want... and in apparently larger numbers than want the Deformer.

 

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That is about the size of it...

I agree with what you posted except for the scared part. Oz does not want to create hope.

I'll take him at his word. Spinning what he says is part of the reason it is freaking hard to get Lindens to talk. Those that disagree with the Lindens mount massive ad hominem attacks and are often highly abusive. Failure of the community to maintain civil discourse is an ongoing problem. As a Linden that has to be annoying. I believe it is very much a part of why Lindens stay away from users and locked down the JIRA.

Whether Oz puts test garments out or not is not going to hinder the community. The test garments were more for the Lab and demonstrating problems than for helping SL users. Nor is it going to hide the fact that to large extent the Deformer works as many want it to.

We can build and test anything we want. The video you posted shows what is possible. So, we can test and spread the word that for most of our purposes the Deformer works well. But, I seriously doubt that is going to move the Lindens. Because as people use the Deformer they see the problems in how the avatar is weighted. they find the problems in the avatar topology. So, they come back to the JIRA and ask those things be fixed. I believe those voices are numerous enough the Lindens decided to look at what can be done with those additional requests... and that is what I believe got us on hold. So, I suspect only a solution to those issues will get things moving again.

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The Deformer works very well. There is very little if anything that can be done to improve it. The cliping and poke-throughs you see in the video are due to the avatar topology and weighting. So, the avatar needs to be fixed to improve the Deformer's performance.

The alternative is to make the Deformer conform to the glitches in the avatar topology and weighting. That would pile more SL content in the way of an avatar fix. So, a decision was made not to do that. The ability to choose a base avatar was added instead.

The problems you see get worse as the size gets smaller and larger. That is size like in Tiny's and Giants as well as fat and skinny.

For non-human avatars there are other complications and things people want to do.

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It is hard to get past hearsay on this subject. Oz does not post transcripts of his meetings. So, the closest you'll get is finding quotes that Inara Pey and I take from our chat logs while at the meetings.

As to whether Deformer is ready or not, I think it is. But, I also see the Lab's concerns, which I voiced here.

The Lindens do want to see the Deformer released. Oz has certainly voiced that sentiment several times and expressed it in terms of a general consensus of Lindens he works with.

But there is a concern that the more they add to this avatar, the harder it will be to ever do Avatar 2.0.

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I am pretty certain I am the source of that sentiment about low priority. I have never heard a Linden say anything close to that about any project. They have said other things are ahead of projects under discussion. I take it that since they are working on other projects, those are higher priority than the Deformer.

In another post in this thread I expressed what I think it will take to change the priority, if it can be changed.

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Thanks for the post Codewarrior. It sums things up very well. I tend to agree with your viewpoint of how things are and what is happening.

I know I, and I think several others, feel the Deformer is ready for our use. But, I know that others find it lacking for their uses. WhiteRabbit and others think the Deformer is ready for the single use case presented here. I agreed with them. But, I have listened to others explain their probems with the Deformer. So, while I would very much like to see this version released and other things fixed later... that may create more problems. I feel wanting this version is a bit self centered of me.

Listening to Karl (Qarl) through all the Metareality podcasts I get that except for possible caching the initialization calc's the Deformer is as ready as it is ever likely to be. The fixes to improve its performance lay in fixing the avatar topology and weighting. Without knowing what fixes will be made to the avatar 'someday' we can't know what will be broken by them.

So while I can't say I'm not sure if I want the Deformer as it is released, I do, I am willing to wait for a more comprehensive and well thought out decision.

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The bouncing boobies are Enhanced Avatar Physics. That is implemented now. It has little if anything to do with the Deformer.

However, the Deformer was made such that it follows the avatar shape, which is why it makes any properly designed clothing fits any shape. It also works with the Enhanced Physics, which is what you saw

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

The Deformer works very well. There is very little if anything that can be done to improve it. The cliping and poke-throughs you see in the video are due to the avatar topology and weighting. So, the avatar needs to be fixed to improve the Deformer's performance.

I do agree that technically the deformer works very well.  I'm sure that Karl has made excellent job with the deformer.  Technically he has made it as good as it possibly can be made on the present avatar.  Job well done. :smileyhappy:

However due to the bad topology of the present avatar, the deformer will never work aesthetically well without any clippings to be seen.  Therefore in this respect it can be said that the deformer does not work well - not so well as many might expect. :smileyindifferent:

What I'm afraid of is that if the deformer is released now, it might stop or delay releasing better avatar mesh.  I think that many have high expectations how the deformer should work.  After deformer release people would see that it is not perfect and there might be lots anger, complaints and bad mouthing again. :smileysurprised: :smileysad:

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I'm with you 100% on all the points made. I am ready to see the Deformer released based on what I've seen, but just because it seems ready for my needs doesn't mean that it's ready for integration. I'm willing to wait for an informed decision to be made.

Let's get real here: It is in no one's best interest for the deformer to never be released.

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This may be off topic, but from my perspective Avatar 2.0 is the last thing I'd hold the deformer for.

Let me be clear that there is nothing you can do to the default avatar to prevent all clipping. It is up to the clothing makers to fine tune their clothing weights to minimize the appearance of clipping, and even then there will still be a need for alphas to cut out problem areas.

Why will alpha's always be needed?

Clothes clip because there is a topological discrepancy between the clothing and the body. Clothing designers want to make the smoothest, most natural looking, highest-poly content they can get away with. The default avatar on the other hand will always have to be low poly. When the avatar wants to bend, it will be incapable of bending as smoothly as the higher-poly clothing that is laying on top of it. On a small scale, this is what happens:

 

Capture.PNG

Not the greatest example, but you get the idea.

_______________________________________________________________

 

So, what happens when Avatar 2.0 inevitably fails to satisfy expectations? More anger, complains and bad mouthing. And people wonder why it seems that LL ignores it's community? I do not envy their position.

Regardless, if Avatar 2.0 is the only reason the project is delayed, and I doubt it, there is going to be a problem.

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