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Maestro Linden

Deploys for the week of 2013-04-01

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@Pierre -  No, reducing your cache size will not help.  That setting just controls how much hard drive space you are willing to devote to the cache, and in this context includes both the texture cache and the object cache which are stored in separate formats and different locations.  It doesn't control how big each per-region object cache file will be, just how big of a filing cabinet you have for those files.

A workaround was mentioned earlier in this thread.  Something about "flipping alpha masks and atmospheric shaders settings".  If that works then it seems like the best workaround that I know of.

Another theoretical workaround (assuming that this really is a bug in the viewer cache retrieval system) would be to manually delete the object cache files before login.  By deleting these files out from under the viewer you will force the server to re-send the cacheable data without clearing your texture cache, which is the real bandwidth saver.  If the objects still don't show up right then the viewer bug isn't in the cache retrieval system, but is in the render code itself where it figures out what should be in the render pipeline.

The object cache files live in different places depending on your operating system.  For Windows XP I happen to know that they live in C:\Users\$USER\AppData\Local\SecondLife\objectcache\ and have names of the form:  objects_1001_1200.slc.

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Andrew

Thankyou for posting a comprehensive and understandable response to the issue of prim rendering that is "bugging" us at the moment.  It gives me hope that this issue is understood and will be fixed.:smileyhappy:

I suspect that since you have replied I have been maligning Simon undeservedly, so I apologise to him!

Just one thing, Andrew: if we were to delete the object cache prior to login, I'd assume that the "fix" would only work until the next TP, like the alpha mask trick?

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Andrew Linden wrote:

 

Another theoretical workaround (assuming that this really is a bug in the viewer cache retrieval system) would be to manually delete the object cache files before login.  By deleting these files out from under the viewer you will force the server to re-send the cacheable data without clearing your texture cache, which is the real bandwidth saver.  If the objects still don't show up right then the viewer bug isn't in the cache retrieval system, but is in the render code itself where it figures out what should be in the render pipeline.

 

I tried the manual delete of the objects file folder and still had the missing prims at Tempura.

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Same here

Deleting cache manually results only in the need to download everything again, the objects some time rez the first time, but after a relog, alot more become "missing"

This is also on the latest LL viewer and i can even point out the prims
Why some prims go "missing" i have no idea, but what i did find is that they are always the same ones

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Sorry, you don't get it. Traffic in SL now is terrible, about 1/3 what it was 3 years ago, and half what it was even a year ago. Stores and sims are closing all over the place.

This is about LL killing SL by moving beyond the pocketbooks of the public.
You may be able to afford to keep up, but look at your friends list, or the traffic to your stores or sims. Look at the number of abandoned parcels. Ask any estate agent renting parcels!

 

Actually I do get your point, but I reject it as hyperbole and drama mongering. It is not possible for SL to remain stuck in 2003 because some people don't want to learn new viewers and technology. I do NOT believe people cannot afford to upgrade their computers. I believe that is a favorite excuse of people who don't want to learn how to use new SL features and viewers. 3 years ago traffic in SL was topping out at 80,000 at my busy times and now it's routinely 60,000 at those same times. That's 3/4 not 1/3. That's pretty good considering the economy we've all been living in since 2008. SL is NOT being killed. It's fine. It does suffer from having a bunch of drama llamas whining and crying in the blogs and forums because SL is changing. See ... I DO get it.

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Cincia Singh wrote: remain stuck in 2003

 

No, again no... that is 10 years, not 1.5 And my figures show much lower TRAFFIC which is numbers X time-at-place. Traffic is the key to keeping shops and clubs open.

Remember, Linden used to publish these numbers every quarter until the numbers got really bad, embarrassing, then they stopped.

Many people I know bought new "better" laptops in the last 2-3 years, but found they were NOT better for graphics. They had no clue about the demands of SL, they are normal people, not gnurds perhaps like you.

Just because you (and I now) have money and gnurd-time to invest, does not mean SL rules the lives and pocketbooks of 90% of residents here. 75% of families I know are struggling every day, much more than in 2010. You put the cost too high, and performance too low, and bingo: more shops and sims close due to lack of traffic.

My point is this: Linden should pay much more attention to the abilities of its customers to pay for PCs and visit with reasonable frame rates. I think this is due to their engineers having whizz-bang PCs, and not being faced with the reality of "brand new better than ever laptops" which aren't.  

Soon we will get server-side baking, which Mark My Words will kill off another 20-30% of residents who won't or can't manage the upgrade.

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For those of you with non-rendering prims, especially after tp'ing, try this:

If you use Firestorm, go to Prefs > Graphics > Rendering > Render Alpha Masks ... .turn this off then back on, and the "Interest List" will be refreshed and all prims displayed.

There may be a way to do this in other viewers.

 

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Cincia you said : "I believe that is a favorite excuse of people who don't want to learn how to use new SL features and viewers."

 

Once again, it's The classic method to by-pass the problem, or to avoid to see it.

I'm sure that such people exist... However, to classify all the complaints in this category has no sense.

So, I will have to repeat my point of view.

- I installed and tested maybe 10 viewers in the past 2 years.

- My computer is probably as powerful as yours, especially its graphic card (because it's my job to sell them).

- Yes new viewers are fast enough to chat with your friends and to have a walk in most of the locations.

Now, try REAL DYNAMIC activities... Did you ever try to fly a jet on top speed with a draw a distance of 300m for example ?

I bet you didn't do it. Because the difference of speed between good updated 1.X viewers (yes meshes capable) and V3 viewers is huuuuuuuuuuuuuge !!!!

 

 

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Domitan Redenblack wrote:

Many people I know bought new "better" laptops in the last 2-3 years, but found they were NOT better for graphics. They had no clue about the demands of SL

That exactly is the problem.  Many people assume that a new "better" laptop will run SL well.  "Of course it must because it's better than the old one."  That's how the thinking goes.  I have seen many posts by people having brand new laptop wondering what is wrong as their brand new shiny laptop runs the viewer badly.

They really should study things and "get the clue" what is required before jumping to buy, and wasting money, with false expectations.  It's not too much trouble even for "ordinary" people to find things out.  If you are planning to by some equipment for some purpose, naturally it is wise to study first what kind of equipment is required for the task, isn't it?  For some strange reason for the general "ordinary" computer shopper that idea may not not come into mind.  To study things first.

One cannot send text messages with old land line telephone. •New phone is required.

One cannot watch colour TV broadcast with black and white TV and expect to get colour. •New TV is required.

One cannot run a marathon well with dancing shoes. •New shoes for runnihng are required.

Maybe Second Life should have two parallel grids?  To please all? :smileywink:

 

1.  Dumbed down grid with vary basic cartoonish graphics.

     No new features would ever be implemented.

2.  Advanced grid with all the latest shiniest graphics enhancement possible.

     New features would regularly be implemented.

Teleport between those two grids would be possible only via special virtual wormhole.

:smileysurprised:  Wooooshhh <---------------> hhhsooooW  :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

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You repeatedly talk about going back to the SL of 5-10 years ago, too afraid to talk rationally about 1-2 years ago. There is just no discussion here about compromise or backwards support, such as for mesh. You are an elitist and just want all the non-rich and non-gnurds to be banished, I suspect.

 

It is perfectly possible to build a system for the customers you have, but the long line of Linden mistakes in "leaders" shows they just can't grasp the concept like most other companies today.

 

All my life I have worked (45 years) to build computer systems to serve people, the 80% target for usability is a noble goal you should consider.

 

 

 

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Domitan Redenblack wrote:

You repeatedly talk about going back to the SL of 5-10 years ago, too afraid to talk rationally about 1-2 years ago. There is just no discussion here about compromise or backwards support, such as for mesh. You are an elitist and just want all the non-rich and non-gnurds to be banished, I suspect.

 

It is perfectly possible to build a system for the customers you have, but the long line of Linden mistakes in "leaders" shows they just can't grasp the concept like most other companies today.

 

All my life I have worked (45 years) to build computer systems to serve people, the 80% target for usability is a noble goal you should consider.

 

 


This thread is not the place for posts like this, and it's counter productive.  

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Same here

Deleting cache manually results only in the need to download everything again, the objects some time rez the first time, but after a relog, alot more become "missing"

This is also on the latest LL viewer and i can even point out the prims

Why some prims go "missing" i have no idea, but what i did find is that they are always the same ones

I experience prety much the same...always the same prims.  One place I frequent it is one section of one wall.  A single prim.  But always the same wall.

Other locations so far not a single problem.

But last night it popped up at another location I frequent that had not been a problem before.

It's like the problem is spreading.

 

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Domitan Redenblack wrote:

 

You are an elitist and just want all the non-rich and non-gnurds to be banished, I suspect.


Hum...  I was thinking that this discussion was about Second Life, its performance and computers.  Not about people and their assumed characters.

shrug-1.gif

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It is spreading

While flying around the LH estate, more and more pieces start to go missing, both in firestorm and the same prims with the latest LL viewer

The suggestion to toggle the alpha option works, if it wasn`t for the fact you don`t stand still in one spot for hours and need to toggle it every 5 seconds while moving lol
I`m done testing it, tried everything including 64mb cache, when coming back and the prims need to be downloaded again, they`re still missing, it`s hopeless
Sure, first login everything looks relatively ok, but cross a region and look/travel back, the place is filled with holes again

My only conclusion can be that something in the server code has changed that affects the client as even the latest release gets messed up badly

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Deleting cache manually results only in the need to download everything again, the objects some time rez the first time, but after a relog, alot more become "missing"

I think Andrew was referring only to the 'objectcache' portion of the cache.  It's a directory (a peer of 'texturecache') and deleting just it may be worth trying.  Not a fix and it may not even be a workaround but much less of a reload hit than clearing the texture cache as well.

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I tried it to no avail

The prims go missing no matter what, i manually delete everything so that it`s really a "fresh" download for testing  :(

Also tried running the cache on my slow 5400rpm 3TB drive instead of the ssd, but doesn`t help either
Reducing bandwidth and all the other things no change in less missing prims

It`s like the viewe isn`t told that those prims are there untill you click it and the viewer wakes up
I did look at the texture debug while clicking the missing prims, no textures are loaded asif they are renderd just not displayed, you can also walk on these prims but will not show untill you click them (or the alpha)

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Monty Linden wrote:


Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Deleting cache manually results only in the need to download everything again, the objects some time rez the first time, but after a relog, alot more become "missing"

I think Andrew was referring only to the 'objectcache' portion of the cache.  It's a directory (a peer of 'texturecache') and deleting just it may be worth trying.  Not a fix and it may not even be a workaround but much less of a reload hit than clearing the texture cache as well.

I manually deleted the object cache and saw no change.

After trying that I also tried using the "clear cache' function in the Viewer. 

The problem still remained.

And given that the problem keeps getting worse, I am seriously considering a clean reinstall to see if that helps alleviates it any.

I dont have the technical proficiency to analyse things like those prims at Tempura to see if there is something about them that causes the trouble, a common denominator to the problem.

 

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for reference, posting my system specs:

 

Second Life 3.5.0 (273444) Apr  3 2013 12:48:32 (Second Life Release)
Release Notes

CPU: AMD Processor model unknown (3000.12 MHz)
Memory: 3328 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 32-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTS 250/PCIe/SSE2/3DNOW!

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 9.18.0013.1090
OpenGL Version: 3.3.0

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.0
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Built with MSVC version 1600

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Doubt it would help as i installed a clean version in a new location and it started immediately

Like you, i have no clue how to dig deeper into trying to find the cause, except for noticing it`s across viewers and that the prims are "there" just never the command to display

 

Will add my spects aswell for what ever cause :)

Rampage 4 extreme (2011 socket)
Intel i7 3960X running at 4.5ghz
Ram: 4x 4gb G-Skill Ripjaws F3-17000CL9Q (9-11-10-28) 2133mhz - configured in quad channel
Gpu: 3x evga 580 SLI (core 1000mhz/mem 2000mhz)
Silverstone Strider 1500watt

C: windows : Kingston SH103S3
D: games : Corsair Force 3 (cache)
E: junk : some samsung 3TB drive

Router: Draytek Vigor 2130: Firmware Version: v1.3.0.1

 

CPU: Intel® Core i7-3960X CPU @ 3.30GHz (3300.02 MHz)
Memory: 16360 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 580/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 9.18.0013.0697
OpenGL Version: 4.2.0

libcurl Version: libcurl/7.21.1 OpenSSL/0.9.8q zlib/1.2.5 c-ares/1.7.1
J2C Decoder Version: KDU v7.0
Audio Driver Version: FMOD version 3.750000
Qt Webkit Version: 4.7.1 (version number hard-coded)
Voice Server Version: Not Connected
Built with MSVC version 1600
Packets Lost: 0/697 (0.0%)

 

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Today I went to Tempura Island.  After TP I waited half a minute.  And I saw this:

Tempura-Island.jpg

Everything rezzed without clicking anywhere.

Specifications:

Second Life 3.5.0 (273174) Mar 29 2013 16:05:29 (Second Life Beta Viewer)
You are at 281,984.0, 230,440.0, 32.7 in tempura island located at sim9772.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.45.106:13000)
Second Life Server 13.03.22.272563

CPU: Intel® Core i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz (3411.16 MHz)
Memory: 8169 MB
OS Version: Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit Service Pack 1 (Build 7601)
Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
Graphics Card: GeForce GTX 560 Ti/PCIe/SSE2

Windows Graphics Driver Version: 9.18.0013.0697
OpenGL Version: 4.2.0

HTTP textures on
HTTP Inventory on

 

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I went there, saw missing prims, turned off atmospheric shaders, the missing prims appeared.

TP'd away, came back, saw a suspicious looking guy and missing prims again:


Tempura.jpg

This time I clicked the missing prim and it appeared.

That's a very busy place in general and my client frame rate was struggling there.

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

 

TP'd away, came back, saw a suspicious looking guy and missing prims again:

Did you click the suspicious looking guy to see if he'd disappear?  (I absolutely love this region...)

 

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