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Maestro Linden

Deploys for the week of 2013-04-01

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Greetings all,

I wanted to point out that the "missing prim " bug can and does also effect Hud attached objects such as buttons.

If you touch the position where the attached hud button is supposed to be......it will do what ever the button is supposed to do.......but when you dont see the button visible..and  are not aware of this missing prim issue...you think you lost it is it is broken or detached.

and Yes ....right clicking on the position where the button should be located will make it visible again. :)

This is why that resident could not see the button to enter credit card information probably.

 

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The cache can and does get corrupted on a regular basis. There's no downside to clearing it out, so no reason to complain at the suggestion. At best, it will help. At worst, nothing happens.

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Darien Caldwell wrote:

The cache can and does get corrupted on a regular basis. There's no downside to clearing it out, so no reason to complain at the suggestion. At best, it will help. At worst, nothing happens.

Three downsides.  The question would be how bad someone thinks they are:

1.  People use it as a cure all and it's not.  "I've cleared my Cache umpteen times and am still having problems."  Personally I think that is the worst downside.  Waste of a lot of time. 

2.  Each place you visit has to reload.  So at a busy club you may have to bear with a longer Rez time the first time you return.

3.  It effects the others at that location because the Server is having to work a little harder.  How much effect it has may be minimal or even miniscule, but there is a side effect.

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Tempura 01.jpg

Tempura 02.jpg

Tempura 03.jpg

 

Japan Tempura today. 

It's been a few month ssince I'd been there but never had this trouble before. 

Clicking on all those missing Prims did cause them to Rez.

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"This project includes a mix of bug fixes and performance improvements around object and avatar loading for viewers."

Would explain why the viewer "missing prims" is getting worse

 

Also as a side question, http textures is sooooo slow compared to udp where it just dumps the whole draw distance into view to render it in 2 minutes, while with http i can go for dinner and when back it`s still not finished...

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Now we can fly, sail, have all kind of fast sports and activities again.

It's like to recover my freedom...

I hope LL will understand that a lot of people are gamers in SL and not online to chat only.

So, there are 2 options :

To keep the 1.x viewer alive.

Or to really really improve the speed of the new generation viewers.
Their framerate is really poor and can drop at any time.

And yes, my computer is really fast enough to run SL and tried a lot of different settings and viewers.

And sorry to sound a bit rude, but if you think that new generation viewers can match the speed of the best 1.x viewer, I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about... maybe you use SL as a social network only, or spend all your time to build... whatever, I bet you don't spend your time to practice dynamic activities.

I aim at nobody in particular.

I would want just to be understood,, because we could recover an almost perfect SL world to fly, etc... and I feel that we're going to lose it again, wich is good for noone.

TY.

 

 

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Mak Munster wrote: ... if you think that new generation viewers can match the speed of the best 1.x viewer, I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about...   

So true! Especially laptop owners with built-in Intel HD3000 graphics are suffering.

MANY of my friends have simply left SL because frame rates have gone from 10-20 frames per second only a year or so ago, down to 3-6 fps now.

It is debilitating to try to move around in a club at 1 frame per second, so they just Quit Second Life, some of them with anger and a true sense of loss. I miss them a lot. WIth the economy belonging to the top 1% now, and so many with no jobs or poor jobs, the "option" of a newer and better laptop is a cruel joke.

Of course, LL's own staff have kick-ass PCs, I am sure, so they don't see how this affects their user-base at all.

If you care about SL, complain to Linden to work on the code base so they don't cripple and lose more and more residents. My own favourite places in SL show only 1/4 the traffic of late 2009 now. Ugh.

You will note that until 18 months ago, LL released quarterly statistics, but they stopped doing this to hide the downward trend they created by alienating so many laptop and lower-end PC (and Mac) owners. Cowards, really.

Linden Labs: Pay attention: Your traffic is dropping and dropping because YOU are effectively kicking your customers out of SL en masse. Put some effort into versions of SL that run well on the Intel HD3000 chipset (millions out there), and lower-spec PCs and Macs.

 

 

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Mak Munster wrote:

Now we can fly, sail, have all kind of fast sports and activities again.

It's like to recover my freedom...

I hope LL will understand that a lot of people are gamers in SL and not online to chat only.

So, there are 2 options :

To keep the 1.x viewer alive.

Or to really really improve the speed of the new generation viewers.

Their framerate is really poor and can drop at any time.

And yes, my computer is really fast enough to run SL and tried a lot of different settings and viewers.

And sorry to sound a bit rude, but if you think that new generation viewers can match the speed of the best 1.x viewer, I have to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about... maybe you use SL as a social network only, or spend all your time to build... whatever, I bet you don't spend your time to practice dynamic activities.

I aim at nobody in particular.

I would want just to be understood,, because we could recover an almost perfect SL world to fly, etc... and I feel that we're going to lose it again, wich is good for noone.

TY.

 

 

Have you used a Linden Lab viewer since 3.4.5? On my machine with a Nvidia GT 640 card, the current Linden Lab viewers have higher frame rates than the PRE-MESH version of Phoenix. I get much higher framerates than with any previous mesh viewer even in crowded locations and get very little framerate drop over time. The rendering engine was heavily revised in 3.4.5 - most TPV's haven't released a viewer using the new rendering engine yet so if you're running a TPV you won't see it yet.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote: Have you used a Linden Lab viewer since 3.4.5? On my machine with a Nvidia GT 640 card, the current Linden Lab viewers have higher frame rates than the PRE-MESH version of Phoenix. I get much higher framerates than with any previous mesh viewer even in crowded locations and get very little framerate drop over time. The rendering engine was heavily revised in 3.4.5 - most TPV's haven't released a viewer using the new rendering engine yet so if you're running a TPV you won't see it yet.

Yes, I have tried both SLV 3.4.5.270263 and Firestorm lastest. I get almost exactly the same frame rates with the same location, view and graphics settings.

 

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Domitan Redenblack wrote:

 

Especially laptop owners
with built-in Intel HD3000 graphics are suffering.


The truth is that integrated Intel graphics cards really are not designed to run intensive graphics applications - such as Second Life is.  Many people also tend to think that any "brand new" computer they might have should run SL perfectly - just because their computer is new.   Then they think that there must something terribly wrong in SL as it does not run well on their new low performance computer.

New viewers run Second Life very well with high frame rates if the computer meets the requirements.  However, it does not need to be the latest, fastest and shiniest gaming computer anyway.

Linden Lab should put a note on their download page with big font:

**Don't expect Second Life to run smoothly on any

   computer which has integrated Intel graphics card.**

 

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Coby Foden wrote: Many people also tend to think that any "brand new" computer they might have should run SL perfectly - just because their computer is new.  

Wrong. Most of these people have the SAME laptops they used when they came in, but SL is slower now due to all the crap that LL have piled on top - mesh, pathfinding, etc. Read my post.

 

MANY of my friends have simply left SL because frame rates have gone from 10-20 frames per second only a year or so ago, down to 3-6 fps now.

 

This is not about people with new laptops, this is about SL used to work fine, but now it doesn’t.

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Domitan

There are many reasons why SL will not run on computers and net connections that were perfectly adequate 3 years or more ago.  The main reason is that the graphical representation of SL is now far and away better than it was then.  That is a simple and irrefutable fact.  Thus there is a lot more information to process and a lot more work for the graphics processor to do.  Now when I first came to SL my PC was a pretty good one, but not long after I started Windlight and other changes decimated the frame-rate I could get.  Ultimately I upgraded both the RAM of my system and the GPU to a more modern capable one.

My present machine is almost state-of -the-art, but already I am seeing areas that my system doesn't process as well as it did.  That is the nature of such media.  Like it or not, progress is a process of using up whatever capacity is available in order to make a more sophisticated (not necessarily better) product.

There is, and always has been, a conceptual mismatch between SecondLife's imagined user base and the one it has got.  Nothing we do will ever change that.  Philip Rosedale simply did not imagine that the sort of folk that wish to use SL as a social medium would ever do so.  Subsequent CEOs have not even tried to close the gap between the intended user-base and the actual one.

The comment "Most of these people have the SAME laptops they used when they came in, but SL is slower now" really sums it up: in order to get the best out of SL you need better equipment now than you did 5 years ago.  You also need a better internet connection in most cases.

Linden Lab will NEVER make SL so that it runs on older and inferior computers and connections.  You may want them to but the wish is utterly unrealistic.  Maybe that will doom SL, maybe not, but it is the BOTTOM LINE.

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Ayesha Askham wrote: in order to get the best out of SL you need better equipment now than you did 5 years ago.  You also need a better internet connection in most cases.


Again, wrong.
 Pay attention,
quote what I said:

Not FIVE years, but one, or at most, two. As I said, and will say AGAIN, I have friends that saw 10-20 fps a little over a year ago, and now see 3-6 fps. Pay attention if you are going to respond to my points.

If the economy had not been borked by two wars on credit, and tax-breaks for the wealthy (invested in our competitors overseas, don't get me started :matte-motes-big-grin-evil:), then these people could probably either have jobs, or at least enough money to keep up with Linden's mad dash away from their customer base (as you so rightly noted).

 

And again, I miss my friends who loved SL dearly, and their friends here, but find that Linden has left them behind...

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Have you used a Linden Lab viewer since 3.4.5? On my machine with a Nvidia GT 640 card, the current Linden Lab viewers have higher frame rates than the PRE-MESH version of Phoenix. I get much higher framerates than with any previous mesh viewer even in crowded locations and get very little framerate drop over time. The rendering engine was heavily revised in 3.4.5 - most TPV's haven't released a viewer using the new rendering engine yet so if you're running a TPV you won't see it yet.

:)

Of course, I did. As I said I tried a lot of viewers... and I continue to do it.

Have you used a Phoenix viewer version able to rezz meshes objects ? It's night and day.

Do it, and compare with Firestorm or the LL viewer. They are anemic and simply not compatible with sport activities.

And once again, I'm talking about very dynamic activities.

And yes my graphic cards are gamers ones... trust me... ;)

V2 or V3 viewers are not a problem for me to talk inside a club... The only problem is... I don't spend my SL time in clubs... I fly and fly fast...

I need a solid minimum of 20 FPS with a draw distance of 300m or more...

 

 

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Domitan

It is YOU who should read more carefully what I wrote.  There have been changes in the last 12 months that have radically improved the presentation of SL to those who have the equipment and the connections for it.  The economic downturn is just as keenly felt this side of the Atlantic as in the USA.  That changes nothing.

Yes, it must be hard on those whose graphic processors or connections cannot handle those changes and at the time that they were being mooted I pointed out that the scenario that you present would likely occur.  I made a value judgement that I needed to find the money to upgrade and I did...eventually.

I will repeat just once more LL DO NOT CARE.  Their remit is to make SL as sophisticated as possible and in their view, it is up to us to keep up.  I know it will alienate many users who either do not have the money or the commitment to upgrade their hardware.  It won't change what LL will do, I know, I have tried subtly and not so subtly to point that out to those of them that would listen.

I am not arguing that you do not have a genuine grievance, merely that you are wasting your time complaining.

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Prims not showing up until you right click on them is without a doubt a client problem. I'm not going to dig up JIRAs to see if this was confirmed or not, but if it was a server issue - right clicking on it wouldn't make it show up.


The fact that you can select it at all means that your viewer is aware it's there - just for some reason the viewer's forgetting to render it.

I also see this problem with attachments, hud elements, etc. Been here for .. idk I feel like almost a year now. I think I actually posted a JIRA about it a loong time ago.

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Danny Nolan wrote:

Prims not showing up until you right click on them is without a doubt a client problem. I'm not going to dig up JIRAs to see if this was confirmed or not, but if it was a server issue - right clicking on it wouldn't make it show up.

 

The fact that you can select it at all means that your viewer is aware it's there - just for some reason the viewer's forgetting to render it.

I also see this problem with attachments, hud elements, etc. Been here for .. idk I feel like almost a year now. I think I actually posted a JIRA about it a loong time ago.

But why is the client suddenly having a problem it didn't have two months ago? 

In Firestorm which has not been updated in several months the problem is growing worse.

It's there in the official viewer too.

Something the Server is not doing is not flicking the switch to tell the Client to 'show' that prim.

A check-sum for a cached textured perhaps breaking down?

This is totally outside my technical expertise.

Something is not tripping the switch in the Viewer to tell it to display that Prim when I first arrive at a location. 

 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Danny Nolan wrote:

Prims not showing up until you right click on them is without a doubt a client problem. I'm not going to dig up JIRAs to see if this was confirmed or not, but if it was a server issue - right clicking on it wouldn't make it show up.

 

The fact that you can select it at all means that your viewer is aware it's there - just for some reason the viewer's forgetting to render it.

I also see this problem with attachments, hud elements, etc. Been here for .. idk I feel like almost a year now. I think I actually posted a JIRA about it a loong time ago.

But why is the client suddenly having a problem it didn't have two months ago? 

In Firestorm which has not been updated in several months the problem is growing worse.

It's there in the official viewer too.

Something the Server is not doing is not flicking the switch to tell the Client to 'show' that prim.

A check-sum for a cached textured perhaps breaking down?

This is totally outside my technical expertise.

Something is not tripping the switch in the Viewer to tell it to display that Prim when I first arrive at a location. 

 

 

Hmm. I'm not sure. I've personally had this problem - like I said before, for what feels like almost a year? If I teleport somewhere, sometimes HUD attachments just never show up until I right click them - same with some avatar attachments, and random geometry in world.

It's possible the server tells your client when all the data's been transferred - although that seems kind of backwards to me. I sorta feel like the client should be aware of that on it's own.

There's def some sort of a lack of "oh it's done." If I can right click on it, and make it appear with all it's textures/geometry/parameters, then obviously all the data's there. But for some reason - the client didn't get the memo.

It's also possible the problem I have is separate. Second Life definitely doesn't like to play well with my slower connection (infinite mesh transfers maxxing out my net - mentioned that on page 4 of this thread).

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This is not about people with new laptops,
this is about SL used to work fine, but now it doesn’t.

No, it's about people making the choice to not upgrade their computers to be able to continue to play in SL. SL works fine today, people's old hardware doesn't. In fact SL works incredibly better than it did when I first rezzed in 2007. I'm not rich, I don't make anywhere close to a 6 figure income, but I prioritize my income and expenses so I can continue to upgrade my computer and enjoy the hobby I choose. I suggest other people do the same.

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Danny

We are all now pretty convinced of the issue being with the viewer (it is NOT client specific though there ARE differences).

What Perrie says MUST be true, i.e. the sim server is simply not sending the viewer some information, and as a result the viewer does not render the item.

It might be a structural prim, an attachment, a HUD item, or as I have noticed over the last two or three days, whole avatars!

The final stage in the problem is the viewer but the problem starts with the server code, because that, in the case of Firestorm, is all that has changed recently.

Now WHY this occurs must be left to LL to determine, we cannot do it. So, Maestro, over to you and your colleagues.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Danny Nolan wrote:

Prims not showing up until you right click on them is without a doubt a client problem. I'm not going to dig up JIRAs to see if this was confirmed or not, but if it was a server issue - right clicking on it wouldn't make it show up.

 

The fact that you can select it at all means that your viewer is aware it's there - just for some reason the viewer's forgetting to render it.

I also see this problem with attachments, hud elements, etc. Been here for .. idk I feel like almost a year now. I think I actually posted a JIRA about it a loong time ago.

But why is the client suddenly having a problem it didn't have two months ago? 

In Firestorm which has not been updated in several months the problem is growing worse.

It's there in the official viewer too.

Something the Server is not doing is not flicking the switch to tell the Client to 'show' that prim.

A check-sum for a cached textured perhaps breaking down?

This is totally outside my technical expertise.

Something is not tripping the switch in the Viewer to tell it to display that Prim when I first arrive at a location. 

 

 

The viewer problem may be similar to a person with a speech impediment - for example, if you have a lisp you tend to pronounce "s" as "th." In normal speech it's noticeable but not a major problem. Now lets say this person finds themselves called upon to recite an alliterative speech that uses the letter "s" an abnormal amount - they'll suddenly start sounding much worse (or "thuddently thtart thounding") but the speech itself can't really be blamed.

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What in the world happened to sim performance with this roll?  At least on Mainland the Physics indicator will pop all the way down and back up then almost all the way down and back up.  Sometimes the Time Dilation and the SIM FPS are dropping midway and coming back up but not nearly as much as the Physics. 

This is with maybe only 12 avatars average.  Did you all really have to pile more sims per server just because you bought news ones.

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Cincia Singh wrote:


This is not about people with new laptops,
this is about SL used to work fine, but now it doesn’t.

No, it's about people making the choice to not upgrade their computers to be able to continue to play in SL....

Sorry, you don't get it. Traffic in SL now is terrible, about 1/3 what it was 3 years ago, and half what it was even a year ago. Stores and sims are closing all over the place.

This is about LL killing SL by moving beyond the pocketbooks of the public. You may be able to afford to keep up, but look at your friends list, or the traffic to your stores or sims. Look at the number of abandoned parcels. Ask any estate agent renting parcels!

 

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"But why is the client suddenly having a problem it didn't have two months ago? "

What has changed is that the server is now treating much more content as "cacheable".  The server's definition of cacheable used to be something like:  "is static and does not have a script".  The new definition of cacheable is: "has not changed position or appearance in the last couple minutes".

The viewer bug must exist inside the code that retrieves object data from cache and is more noticeable now because the viewer-side object cache tends to be bigger.  I've brought the problem to the attention of one of the developers who is working on some viewer-side changes that will compliment the next server-side interestlist changes (*), so we hope to figure it out soon.

(*) The server will soon support two hints from the viewer:

(1) "I don't have an object cache file for this region at all" --> the server will then be able to bypass some of the initial "cache probe" messages of the protocol which looks something like this:

Viewer: Hello, I would like to connect.

Server:  You are connected.

Server: Do you have cache for object 123 whose version is 456?

Viewer: No, I do not have cache for object 123.

Server: Here is the data for object 123.

Under the new system: when visiting a region for the first time the conversation will look more like this:

Viewer: Hello, I would like to connect, and BTW I can tell you right now that I have no cache.

Server: You are connected.

Server: Here is the data for object 123.

 

(2) "I'm willing to cache ALL object data in the region, including stuff that is too far away or too small to see" --> the server will eventually stream all cacheable data to the viewer, including sky boxes far above.  It sends the non-visible data with a delay so that if you're flying through the region on a jetpack and leave soon after arriving you won't get the extra data, and once it starts sending the non-visible objects it will be in a lazy fashion -- lower bandwidth than when sending what is in front of you.

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April 9, 2013 01.jpg

 

Thank you Andrew for the explanation.

This was today at Japan Tempura.  Besides going there because of how beautiful it is, I also go there occasionally to 'stress test' settings.  It's usually a bit laggy.  You can see SIM FPS & Time Dilation suffers there.

I do hope that this 'bug' gets worked out quickly because if I am understanding correctly what you are saying, the work around for us right now is to lower our Cache to the minimum which would be counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish.  Among other things it would add to Server Load rather than reducing.

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