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Maestro Linden

Deploys for the week of 2013-04-01

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I ran out of time and was unable to plan a decent April Fool's joke.  Oops. 

Second Life Server (main channel)

The main channel is getting the interest list project that was previously on Magnum.  This project includes a mix of bug fixes and performance improvements around object and avatar loading for viewers.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/13#13.03.22.272563

Scheduled Tuesday 2013-04-02 05:00-12:00 PDT

 

Second Life RC BlueSteel and Second Life RC LeTigre:

BlueSteel and LeTigre are on the same server maintenance project as last week.  This project has some bugfixes, but the most notable changes are new features in LSL.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_BlueSteel/13#13.04.01.273300

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_LeTigre/13#13.04.01.273300

Scheduled Wednesday 2013-04-03 07:00-11:00 PDT

 

Second Life RC Magnum:

Magnum is on a new project this week.  This project includes low level changes to how the simulator handles HTTP connections.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_Magnum/13#13.04.01.273298

Scheduled Wednesday 2013-04-03 07:00-11:00 PDT

 

We will be monitoring this thread as the code gets released, so feel free to note any observations you have about the server updates.  If you have a specific bug you'd like to report, please file a Jira

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Maestro

These " Interest List" tweaks are becoming ridiculous.  I already gave you guys a "heads up" about the unexpected behaviour of shadows with the list, but the recent updates on Main Server are making the "shared experience" worthless.

It is now quite commonplace to walk into an invisible prim or sculpt which does not rez until clicked on.  This can make navigating complex and beautiful (normally) sims such as Elicio Ember's Cerridwen's Cauldron a real hazard, and also means that several fine pieces of the build remain invisible until touched.

Sometimes this is obvious, i.e. a floor or wall is simply missing, but sometimes it is NOT (such as a bridge or stairs), and on those occasions visitors may simply never see beautiful or important features.  Functional prims and sculpts suffer every bit as much as dumb ones.

Now this state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue uncorrected.  This issue is ruining the "shared experience" and as such must be addressed as soon as possible.

Now, before you or anyone else tells me to "raise a JIRA", I am sick and tired of raising JIRAs simply to have them closed as duplicates of existing ones.

a) I cannot add my comments to those

and

b) Nothing seems to have been done to address existing and serious issues with the "Interest List" project.

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This might just be network but since the rolling restarts I am seeing really odd ping times.  My usual is around 180msec, but it seems to sporadically go into the 1000's (greater than 5k, then down to around 3K before coming down to the normal - it almost appears to step in the stats floater.

 

I am on Le Tigre which hasn't been updated as yet - but this is really odd behavior.

 

Thanks

Black

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Hello Ayesha,


I think i know the issue you mentioned. When you enter a sim a number of prims are not rezzed. If you right click the place where they should be they show immediatly.

This is not something new, it is happening for about 8 month now i think. It is not reproducable, but some places suffer it more than others. I am not sure it is a server issue. When you right-click the wall ot floor it is rezzed so fast, that all the information must have been in the viewer. For some reason however the viewer does not rez the prims until they are touched.

Since it is not reproducable it is hard to file a Jira about it.

I really hope someone finds the real reason why this is happening and solves the problem.


Greetings, Chriss.

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The crossing problem is perfectly fixed. Thank you !

It's very very important for the aviation community and many others...

Keep them this way... They never were so good.

 

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Chriss

I tend to agree that something like this has been around for a while, but this particular example of it, following the release onto Main Server of the Interest List project has worsened it markedly.  Some sims that never suffered this issue are now showing it regularly and for many items, not one or two.

Tonight at Amber Skyline Raceway some of the track prims didn't rez until they were touched.  This had NEVER happened before today.

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BlackMagi

I have been banging on to LL about this issue for a few weeks now, which occurs during and for a while after restarts and is seemingly getting worse.

I suspect that "The Lab" have an idea what it is but either do not know what to do or cannot do anything about it.  It is quantifiable and almost predictable, but I have seen nothing about it on this forum so far.

 

BTW, my home sim is LeTigre RC and that is where I first saw this.

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Ayesha Askham wrote:

BlackMagi

I have been banging on to LL about this issue for a few weeks now, which occurs during and for a while after restarts and is seemingly getting worse.

I suspect that "The Lab" have an idea what it is but either do not know what to do or cannot do anything about it.  It is quantifiable and almost predictable, but I have seen nothing about it on this forum so far.

 

BTW, my home sim is LeTigre RC and that is where I first saw this.

Hi Ayesha, my comment from a few weeks ago still stands.

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I am having problems with pathfinding since todays update. If I turn away from a character, he stops moving. If I turn back and look at it, the character jumps to the new position, but there is a delay of about 1 second in which it appears frozen. That looks really strange and messed up, since I usually have about 10 pathfinding characters rezzed and it looks like stop and go now in my game. Some of them also disappear when I just look the other way and it takes about 1 sec when I look at them again till they appear again. Till then they are invisible. This is really not how people can build games. This Interestlist stuff completly messed it up.

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Heya Maestro,

Main channel included this fix: Updates for objects that are out of view are delayed for a maximum of 5 seconds, at which point they will be sent (mitigates BUG-1779[c]).


I can still reproduce BUG-1779 when using the original repro with the Meeroos. The sliding of the Meeroos is no better on a main channel region.

However the repro you gave on BUG-1779 using the coloured boxes does no longer reproduce.

I have updated BUG-1779.

 

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I agree,,,,this bug with a few   random prims  Not rezzing  until you "right click " on them  has been around for a year or more.......but   since interest list changes..it   happens  a lot more often and effects more prims.  There seems to be no pattern to it...the only thing repeatable is "right clicking" on the place where the prim should be  always makes it  rez instantly.

So in am guessing that  it actually is rezzed....but not loaded into your viewer unless you right click where  the prim should be.

My special  thanks to Maesto and Andrew for fixing bug 1814 ( total loss of cam view during sim crossings with airplanes)

Fixed now on Agni and Magnum servers :)   Yeah !!!   WE  CAN FLY AGAIN !

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Hi Ayesha

I will login tonight with the Linden viewer during the RC restarts and see if that is the same - I don't usually look at  sim stats but a friend was having problems rezzing... 

Yesterday's session logs have been overwritten since logging in this morning so creating a JIRA will not be of any use as there are no logs to look at.  My ping times have returned to 'normal' as you've already observed.

 

Thanks

Black

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This missing prim problem does seem to have become worse after that latest roll-out. It is unpredictable. in general, though some prims have been very consistently afflicted. Using Alts, from the same machine, with the same cashe, and the same Viewer, one will see the prim most of the time, while the other has to go through the right-click process most of the time. It doesn't seem to make any different which of the two Alts logs in first, after this computer has been restarted.

I should note that this problem, if it is a Viewer bug, may be obvious in Firestorm because there are not freqeunt updates. If it's been fixed in the Linden Viewer since December, we'll be stuck with it in Firestorm for a while yet. And the combination of CHUI and Server-Side Baking may have messed with all Viewer development. It's a big change that has to be ported to a TPV and tested.

Maestro, if this missing prim problem is a Viewer bug, and already fixed in the Linden Viewer, please let us know, so we can stop pestering you. But, if it is such a bug, it feels a little odd that it gets worse after a change to the sim code. If you're changing the signalling between sim and viewer, I hope you remembered to tell the viewer team.

Sorry, Maestro, but I have become accustumed to LL appearing to be generally lousy at communications, both internally and with customers. It may not be the problem this time but, as with the race not always being to the swift, it still appears to be the way to bet.

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Hi Wolfbaginski, I would do the following to determine whether objects are missing due to a server bug or viewer bug:

1) Note whether the missing objects are whole linksets or only certain prims in linksets.  Interest list issues would generally affect whole linksets.  A viewer rendering issue or maybe a message-packing/decoding issue would seem more likley if only certain prims in linksets are affected.  It sounds like you're seeing at least part of the linkset, since you're able to select it.

2) While the prims are missing, enable Develop -> Render Metadata -> Bounding Boxes, and see what bounding boxes appear.  You should see a prim-aligned bounding box for each prim, as well as a world-aligned bounding box that covers the linkset.  If you see a bounding box where a missing prim is located, or if the linkset bounding box extends to include the missing prims, then it's almost certainly the viewer's fault.  

3) While the prims are missing, enable Develop -> Show Info -> Show Updates to Objects.  With this setting enabled the viewer will render a particle from each linkset/prim that it got an update for:
* Red means a full update was received from the server (which has a full description of the object's visual parameters)
* Blue means a terse update was received (which only includes information about a few properties, such as position and velocity)
* Green means that an 'objectdelete' update was received (meaning that the object was either derezzed or is out of range for the viewer)
If you enable this feature, and observe that the missing prims appear without a full object update being sent, then it's probably a viewer bug (in that the viewer knew about the missing prims the whole time, but initially failed to render them).

 4) If you leave a region, then return to it, the viewer will load cacheable objects from the local cache, instead of getting the object details from the simulator.  If the object was loaded from cache and the appearance has been either fixed or broken since the last time you saw it, this would indicate a viewer bug.  You can verify that an object was loaded from viewer cache by enabling Develop->Rendering Metadata->Update Type; objects loaded from cache are shaded blue, with this mode enabled.

 

Update:

I investigated this on region LEA27 on Aditi.  This region has 25k prims, which are all identical mesh boxes.  They are arranged in pretty patterns, so it's fairly obvious when some are missing.  I found that some prims in linksets 'randomly' (different linksets are affected each time I visit the region) don't render until selected.  All of the debug settings indicate that this is a viewer-side issue.  I used 'Second Life 3.4.5 (270263) Feb 12 2013 04:36:12 (Second Life Release)' to test.  I didn't see an existing Jira for this issue, so I filed a new one internally.

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I have also been seeing missing prims with increased frequency since yesterdays roll. In particular certain prims of the building I usually login standing on.

Location: Veil of Shadows

sim9873.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.46.15:13010)
Second Life Server 13.03.22.272563


Maestro Linden wrote:


1) Note whether the missing objects are whole linksets or only certain prims in linksets.  Interest list issues would generally affect whole linksets.  A viewer rendering issue or maybe a message-packing/decoding issue would seem more likley if only certain prims in linksets are affected.  It sounds like you're seeing at least part of the linkset, since you're able to select it.


1) Missing objects are only certain prims of a linkset
One of the prims that always goes missing is highlighted here

missing prim.png

 


Maestro Linden wrote:


2) While the prims are missing, enable Develop -> Render Metadata -> Bounding Boxes, and see what bounding boxes appear.  You should see a prim-aligned bounding box for each prim, as well as a world-aligned bounding box that covers the linkset.  If you see a bounding box where a missing prim is located, or if the linkset bounding box extends to include the missing prims, then it's almost certainly the viewer's fault.  

2) I see a bounding box where the missing prim should be (shaded pink where prim is missing)

BBox.png

 


Maestro Linden wrote:


3) While the prims are missing, enable Develop -> Show Info -> Show Updates to Objects.  With this setting enabled the viewer will render a particle from each linkset/prim that it got an update for:

* Red means a full update was received from the server (which has a full description of the object's visual parameters)

* Blue means a terse update was received (which only includes information about a few properties, such as position and velocity)

* Green means that an 'objectdelete' update was received (meaning that the object was either derezzed or is out of range for the viewer)

If you enable this feature, and observe that the missing prims appear without a full object update being sent, then it's probably a viewer bug (in that the viewer knew about the missing prims the whole time, but
initially
failed to render them).

 

3) Enabled show updates to objects and clicked missing prim.
I saw a couple of blue object update dots


Maestro Linden wrote:


 4) If you leave a region, then return to it, the viewer will load cacheable objects from the local cache, instead of getting the object details from the simulator.  If the object was loaded from cache and the appearance has been either fixed or broken since the last time you saw it, this would indicate a viewer bug.  You can verify that an object was loaded from viewer cache by enabling Develop->Rendering Metadata->Update Type; objects loaded from cache are shaded blue, with this mode enabled.

4) With Update Type enabled and the prim still missing as it was on login, the missing prim is not shaded blue. Edited prim so it appeared then TP'd to another region for a few mins and TP'd back to last location.
Same prim was again missing and not shaded blue.

20130403160831842.png

 

All repros so far have been on Firestorm with this certain prim since the rollout. It may possibly be coincidence this started after the roll though because I have seen missing prims before in other locations on both Firestorm and various builds of Viewer 3.

I will use Viewer 3 later today and see if I can reproduce this.

But from what you describe, this looks like a Viewer issue from my results?

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Thanks for taking a look, Whirly.  I do have one question:

> 3) Enabled show updates to objects and clicked missing prim.
> I saw a couple of blue object update dots

When I typically select a non-moving object, I see a single blue particle from my avatar when I select it, but only see a blue particle from the selected object when I release selection.  Is this what you see, or did you also see an update coming out of the object when you begin to select it?

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@Maestro

Point taken, and once I find worthwhile data in my logs I'll raise a JIRA, but so far I have failed to do so.

As regards this "invisible prim" issue...yes I am fairly sure that missing prims are parts of linksets..Whirly seems to be on that.

While this may well be a viewer issue, either there is miscommunication between the sim and the viewer as to whether this item should or should not be rendered, or something is messing with the render engine.  Neither of those things are expected behaviour, nor are they acceptable.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the issue has been markedly worsened by the latest rolls.

ETA: This is just after our sim was rolled to the new server version:

Firestorm 4.3.1 (31155) Dec  2 2012 00:45:37 (Firestorm-Release) with Havok support Release Notes

You are at 257,369.0, 321,818.0, 22.6 in Woods of Heaven located at sim8997.agni.lindenlab.com (216.82.41.173:13028) Second Life RC LeTigre 13.04.01.273300 Error fetching server release notes URL.

Draw distance: 360 Bandwidth: 1100 LOD factor: 4 Built with MSVC version 1600 Packets Lost: 0/130,637 (0.0%)

Many prims are nor rezzing until touched.  All that I've seen so far were elements of linksets. There is a mounting body of evidence that this is NOT viewer specific, but that it IS viewer-related.

Maestro...what on earth is going on and when will Simon fix it?

FETA: (Not a sort of cheese by the way)  Suddenly particle chains are not appearing, or appearing very sparsely...can this be an effect of server-side changes too?

YAFETA: No, I'm a ****.  It was me and my viewer!:smileyembarrassed:

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Maestro Linden wrote:

Thanks for taking a look, Whirly.  I do have one question:

 

> 3) Enabled show updates to objects and clicked missing prim.

> I saw a couple of blue object update dots

 

When I typically select a non-moving object, I see a single blue particle from my avatar when I select it, but only see a blue particle from the selected object when I release selection.  Is this what you see, or did you also see an update coming out of the object when you begin to select it?

Correct.

I right clicked -> edit on the missing prim so it appeared and when I exited edit, I saw the blue update dot. No update dots until I released from edit.

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I can confirm missing prims as well. I use the official viewer. For now I could only observe this with mesh or sculptie objects. I have a tree-linkset in which just half the scuptie prims rezed till I clicked it. My friend couldn´t see my mesh avatar today. I was invisible. Then I have the earlier mentioned problem with my 1 prim sculptie pathfinding character. They appear frozen when I turn away. Once I turn back, they appear at the old position for about 1sec, then jump to the new position where they were supposed to be. Looks to me that they are derendered when I turn away. Once I start looking at them again, they are loaded from cache at the old position. Then they are moved to the new position with a delay.

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Okay, I got a repro on Second Life 3.4.5 (270263) Feb 12 2013 04:43:00 (Second Life Release)

Different object this time though. This time it is a trunk of a sculpted tree about 20m from where I logged in.

1) Missing sculpt prim is part of a linkset

2) Bounding boxes - I really can't tell because its around a lot of other sculpts and the bounding boxes are just spaghetti.

If I enable normals under render metadata, that shows the missing tree tunk, so the viewer must know it is there.

3) Object updates - same as before, just a blue dot when releasing trunk from edit (trunk appeared as soon as I edited it)

4) Update type -  When trunk is still missing, update type does not colour it blue.

Other visble trunks near it are coloured blue

 

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I can also confirm 10-15% packet loss since Tuesday's Roll. The Sim I'm usually in is LeTigre, but many of the surrounding sims are Main Channel. The packet loss started right after Tuesday's roll completed. I have reset everything on my end, so it's certainly not that.

I waited for my sim ( Named Borgbeef) to roll to the new Le Tigre version today, and It seems today the packet loss as dropped somewhat to around 3-5%  But that's still 3-5% more than I used to get.

 

The one odd thing I"m noticing is, a *lot* of "Kills on unknown objects" messages, just constant. I don't know what that means, but it's something new I've not seen before. A sample:

 

kills.jpg

I'm using LL's Standard Viewer 3.4.5

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The missing prim problem.

This is just my impression, but I always thought this looked like a bug to do with the viewer fetching things from the cache. When I clear the cache and first login it doesn't seem to be a problem, in fact 99% of the time it renders correctly, However when I tp out, then back in (and it gets lots of hits from the cache I presume) I will get something like this (part of 2 link sets have failed to render) ...

Snapshot1_001.jpg

 

With Render Metadata on it looks a mess but it looks like the viewer is aware of them all.

 

Snapshot2_001_001.jpg

 

"When I typically select a non-moving object, I see a single blue particle from my avatar when I select it, but only see a blue particle from the selected object when I release selection.  Is this what you see, or did you also see an update coming out of the object when you begin to select it?"

 

That is exactly what I see, I right click, get a blue particle from me, then when I release focus on the object I get a blue spark from the object.

I have tested this in Firestorm and the current release of the LL viewer and they both appear to react the same. But given when you TP in with a clear cache, I would suggest this is specifically a Viewer Cache related issue.

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This is hugely unscientific & merely based on hearsay & poke-it-and-see...

... but flicking alpha masks off & on draws everything in straight away when faced with this situation, in my experience.

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