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I wasn't assuming anything about the reasons why people on the General thread were supporting or liked the ads and I do agree they have every right to their opinion as those of us opposed to the ads.  As you noted I was comparing the responses from the two threads and I do agree that the merchant population approaches the ads from a different perspective. 

I also noted that some people in their posts supporting the ads were taking more than an "It's your choice to see or not see the ads" stance to the extent, in some cases, of berating people who *choose* to use an ad blocker.

Those were my two main points, nothing more or less.  I didn't know it was going to create a fire storm (no pun intended...lol).

We'll just have to agree to disagree...we're both redheads, after all. ;)

 

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we're both redheads, after all. **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" />

-----------------------------------

Though that is true (at least on my end) I honestly don't remember ever saying that on the forums.

Not to say I didn't......just that I don't remember.  :)

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my opinion is the ads should be minimally invasive & should only be featuring SL products & services. people come to SL to get away, as an escape or break from reality. being surrounded by advertisements for real life products & services spoils immersion. also makes SL look extremely tasteless, crass & lame.

so less ads please & keep it about SL stuff only.

we can't see the stats anymore since Linden hide everything. yet i would imagine the stats would reflect that Linden just decreased their (already pathetic) signup retention by putting these annoying ads everywhere. newcomers to SL will be much more likely to bounce.

leads us to the question is the new ads worth it?

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

we're both redheads, after all. **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" />

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Though that is true (at least on my end) I honestly don't remember ever saying that on the forums.

Not to say I didn't......just that I don't remember.
 
:)

One time I said something in a response to your post about you being as feisty as I am and asked if you were a redhead.  I *think* you said something like "Strawberry blonde" but it's close.  ;)

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I would agree about the ads being Second Life related........that's a pipe dream though.  Since practically everything (I would venture to say 99%) in SL is user created that would require the users to pay for those ads.  Specifically, the merchants who would profit from such advertisements.  With all the whining and crying about how much the merchants put up already (which, in itself, is a crock, in my opinion........unless you are counting only the time involved in producing the content) I highly doubt a single merchant would pay even half the going rate for advertising on the Internet (which is far cheaper than advertising on other media........TV, radio, print, billboards, or other real life methods of advertising).  The realities of life do play a very significant part in why LL might have chosen the way and type of ads displayed.  When something is not possible, it's futile to argue in favor of that something.  Just give it a little thought before you advocate something.

Linden Lab "hides" everything for much the same reason I might hide everything.  It's not anyone's business how much money I make in real life (not even in SL).  I keep it private (in fact I guard it dearly).  I don't want you to know it and you have no right to know it.  Am I curious?  You bet I am.  Do, in any way, think LL should tell me?  Not on your life.  LL is a private company and, just like a private citizen, they have a right to privacy.

Are the ads worth it?  I don't know.  Time will tell. But, despite many who say LL is stupid they have a track record of making money..........if they didn't then explain why they are still in business after 11 years.  That's a pretty long time in the tech field.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

we're both redheads, after all. **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt=":smileywink:" title="Smiley Wink" />

-----------------------------------

Though that is true (at least on my end) I honestly don't remember ever saying that on the forums.

Not to say I didn't......just that I don't remember.
 
:)

One time I said something in a response to your post about you being as feisty as I am and asked if you were a redhead.  I *think* you said something like "Strawberry blonde" but it's close. 
;)

Found it!!!!!! :matte-motes-big-grin:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Best-Viewer-for-SL-as-of-now/td-p/1781923/highlight/true/page/3

<---Redhead with a good memory ;)

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These adverts make LL look cheap and nasty, simple as that and it won't help with new resident retention
 in fact the opersite, it makes you wonder what goes on in the minds at LL?

But then again they never been too bright, there are many ways LL could make more money and make sl better but they refuse to be innovative!

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Linden Lab refuses to be "innovative"?   Are you sure about that?  Perhaps you should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life

Everything Philip Rosedale (the founder of Linden Lab) did was "innovative".  Who did it before?  Tell me, who thought of and put those thoughts (or ideas) into play before Linden Lab?  What company is the first and last company when someone mentions virtual worlds that is user created?  Is that EA sports?  Maybe Blizzard Entertainment?  Who?  LL was built and continues to survive on innovativeness.

You need to get some more information before you make such statements.  Will the ads be SL's demise?  Maybe.....only time will tell.  But, let someone who's been reading crap like your post for years, history is not on your side.  LL will survive or die on their decisions............but some amateur with no knowledge making statements like "But then again they never been too bright, there are many ways LL could make more money and make sl better but they refuse to be innovative!" is absolutely beyond ignorant.

You don't like the ads..............so what?  Actually, neither do I but I know enough about life (real life which is what LL's decisions are based upon) to know someone made a decision based on some research and facts.  Especially if that someone has made decisions in the past that have advanced the company they are making the decisions for.  Since SL has advanced over the years and is still a viable (and, apparently) profitable company those decisions have been sound and good. 

LL not innovative?  Probably one of the most stupid statements I read in years.

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I replied to you having said among other things - and somewhat condescendingly - that "everyone is their own worse enemy on the internet." Since then, you have attempted to educate me twice - which implies you believe you have superior knowledge in these areas, even though you know nothingabout me or my professional skills. As a result, you've persuaded me of nothing you intended - in fact, I've largely skimmed your replies ever since I read "you're dreaming."

For your information, professional simply means one makes a livelihood with some skillset - it implies nothing about a person's behavior. Joseph Goebbels demonstrated that quite well, wouldn't you agree?

 

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No problem here, I got what you were saying, I'll offer a counter disclaimer that some of what I'd said was a knee jerk reaction to those who were eluding that people that didn't like ads were just whining. Working off some bad karma for having done sort of the same thing in the past.

There are times when it goes beyond just whether we like or dislike a given feature and try to get LL to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

On the one hand, they're trying to get universities to come back, on the other they're presenting the kind of image via this advertising that wouldn't get a university funded.

LL has never been good at laser focus when it comes to direction. I think in this case they need to decide if they want professionals back like universities, solution providers and business or whether they want to cater to the gamer/griefer/casual crowd.

I think there's a happy medium, but not if they're going to downgrade their image and make the world think they're paupers.

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

Linden Lab refuses to be "innovative"?   Are you sure about that?  Perhaps you should read this:

Everything Philip Rosedale (the founder of Linden Lab) did was "innovative".  Who did it before?  Tell me, who thought of and put those thoughts (or ideas) into play before Linden Lab?  What company is the first and last company when someone mentions virtual worlds that is user created?  Is that EA sports?  Maybe Blizzard Entertainment?  Who?  LL was built and continues to survive on innovativeness.

You need to get some more information before you make such statements.  Will the ads be SL's demise?  Maybe.....only time will tell.  But, let someone who's been reading crap like your post for years, history is not on your side.  LL will survive or die on their decisions............but some amateur with no knowledge making statements like
"But then again they never been too bright, there are many ways LL could make more money and make sl better but they refuse to be innovative!"
is absolutely beyond ignorant.

You don't like the ads..............so what?  Actually, neither do I but I know enough about life (real life which is what LL's decisions are based upon) to know someone made a decision based on some research and facts.  Especially if that someone has made decisions in the past that have advanced the company they are making the decisions for.  Since SL has advanced over the years and is still a viable (and, apparently) profitable company those decisions have been sound and good. 

LL not innovative?  Probably one of the most stupid statements I read in years.

Would like to respond first about the targetted bits once again. Yes, it is Google advertising, you can view the source. You can also cruise the AdSense and AdWords and related documentation to find out how each person in the advertising chain can customize advertising content. The API documentation is freely available. I'm sure LL is also not done tweaking yet, so the situation may improve as far as actual ads that show. Whether they should or not is personal preference and opinion. However, general perception isn't a luxury LL can afford to dismiss.

 

On your innovation comments. The SL we have today contains no broad elements that were invented by LL. Before you misunderstand, let me say that I do recognize SL as the leading virtual world of its type.

However, SL evolved from the years of projects of its kind that have come before. From BBS games to text games, to eventual 3D worlds with user generated content (also for sale by their users). There were many projects very similar to SL done in VRML with user generated content.

The exchange is not new. It wasn't a new concept when Gaming Open Market ran it: http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/news/2004/01/61999?currentPage=all

It wasn't unique when they took it out from under Gaming Open Market: http://alphavilleherald.com/2005/08/betrayed_linden.html

LL didn't know exactly what to do in the beginning with SL as they'd changed tactics quite a few times before they settled on tier "and" an exchange with sinks to take more money out of the economy, and advertising (advertising first in-world at open ended rates, and then on the login screen and the marketplace and now banners on all web properties).

Land sales and tier are nothing new, I believe BlackSun(?) was doing this a few years before SL was on the radar.

As you know, neither was the marketplace unique innovation, many marketplaces were developed by users before finally being acquired by LL so that they could control the sales of virtual goods on the web.

As a matter of fact, the "new" products LL is working on are actually retro products that have existed in various forms years before. Interactive Fiction for instance existed before the internet.

There is little innovative or new to SL, it is an evolutionary and iterative world based on what has gone before. There is no shame in this and it follows the law of natural progression.

The new bits are that they were able to achieve a level of funding and viral marketing that caused a hype wave.

I've personally worked with people who have created most of the core elements that make up SL, years before SL existed, including 3D worlds in VRML made of nothing but user generated content, with monetized currency, etc.

The concept of virtual economy goes back decades at the very least.

What new things are innovative? Mesh? Pathfinding? These are standard game engine fodder most of which exceed SL capabilities by quite a bit.

That we're here spending massive hours and effort taking a chance on SL as a business venture is a great show of support for SL despite one mistake and bit of ineptness after another. Other than disputing that support as whining I'm not really sure what your underlying message actually is.

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------------------------------------------

No problem here, I got what you were saying, I'll offer a counter disclaimer that some of what I'd said was a knee jerk reaction to those who were eluding that people that didn't like ads were just whining. Working off some bad karma for having done sort of the same thing in the past.

There are times when it goes beyond just whether we like or dislike a given feature and try to get LL to stop shooting themselves in the foot.

On the one hand, they're trying to get universities to come back, on the other they're presenting the kind of image via this advertising that wouldn't get a university funded.

LL has never been good at laser focus when it comes to direction. I think in this case they need to decide if they want professionals back like universities, solution providers and business or whether they want to cater to the gamer/griefer/casual crowd.

I think there's a happy medium, but not if they're going to downgrade their image and make the world think they're paupers.--------------------------------------------------------------

Somehow I think Czari got what I was saying (despite her disagreeing with me).  But you, on the other hand, seem to have completely missed it.  I guess you have consistently missed my point that I don't like advertisements (pop-ups specifically).  But I also understand why are used (it revolves around money........real life money).  Marketplace is provided by Linden Lab free to anyone who wants to use the site with the only charges made are to anyone selling something in the form of a "commission" ( a fee LL levees for each sale)..........there is no charge until something is sold.  The seller gets that charge and the consumer does not.  That's a very sweet deal.....sell nothing and you are charged nothing, sell a bunch and you are charged a percentage of that bunch (you can't loose with a deal like that.....don't you wish real life was like that?).  Someone has to pay for any website on the Internet.  Someone has to pay for the bandwidth that every user (consumer or merchant) consumes.........that ain't free.  Someone has to maintain the site (the consumer doesn't and neither does the merchant).  All that is money (real money........not Linden dollars).  LL happens to be the one who foots all that expense (and more that we are probably not even aware of).  I doubt a 5% (or even a 10%) commission would pay for those expenses.  And you are bitching about ads (if not ads then anything else LL might put forth to help defer the expenses).  How would you make ends meet........short or charging a fee for a shop or business on the Marketplace?  Eat the expenses (which is what I think you believe is the solution) and end up closing Marketplace all together due to too much loss in revenue?  You seem to think you know business............is that sound business?

I love the red herrings like "universities".  What university do you think would have a Marketplace presence?  How about a corporation?  Maybe Microsoft (or Apple) would be interested in selling some virtual laptop for the residents to put on there desk......complete with a virtual Windows 8 operating system (or OS 10 operating system).  Maybe Ford Motor Corporation would like to sell some Crossover SUV (complete with On-Star).  Think that would be of interest to a corporation?  Corporations would not be concerned at all about pop-ups on Marketplace.........unless they had some themselves to get some real life sales (which I'm sure they have looked at already).

This is a make believe, virtual world......corporations know that and will treat it for just what it is.  That's why LL failed in the past to get any significant corporate presence in the past.  A virtual world where the primary concern of the users is make believe is never going to attract a real world business beyond simple advertising.  Make believe.........where you and I are in SL.  Real.......where corporations are all the time.  There's a vast difference.  LL has found out that the corporate world and the virtual world do not mix very well.   Universities are not any different........education is real and make believe learning is play.  We have enough playing already in our education system......Universities know this and LL learned it a few years ago.

It's okay that you don't like advertising on Marketplace (as I've said numerous times, neither do I).  But it's not a case of LL "shooting themselves in the foot".  It's a case of LL facing facts and attempting to fix a problem before it sinks them....all without having to resort to charging their customers.  Which reminds me...when was the last time LL increased the premium fees or tier?  The premium fees have not increased for more than 7 years that I can absolutely say without any doubt.  The tier has increased one time.........about 6 years ago.  Someone at LL is looking out for us.

Maybe they are shooting themselves in the foot afterall.

 

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So George Lucus isn't an innovator either.  :)  I mean animation and special effects were around decades before Star Wars.  :)

Gotcha...........you are a true expert.  

:)

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linden was innovative in 2007. those lindens are long gone.now linden is uncreative & outdated. it became a typical money-chasing corp. copy copy copy & terrible implementations is all they do now.

sure linden can get money from ads! but its not innovative! its trashing their brand in attempt to grab the easiest money. ads everywhere shows linden got no class & will repel people in droves.

trust me i know the industry.

the reason lindens turn to ads is they can not fill the space with more valuable (innovative) material of their own. so that property is up for sale. ads demonstrate weak product & a void of innovation.

if linden had remained innovative as in 2007 they would not need to turn to tacky advertisements for revenue today. they would be widely praised by all of us & peggy would not be their only defender in this thread. theres the proof. not innovative & the ad idea is dumb.

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If you would search the archives you would have seen Peggy was the "only defender" back in 2007 too.  :)  SL is dead is not new...........it's not innovative either. :)

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"Marketplace is provided by Linden Lab free to anyone who wants to use the site with the only charges made are to anyone selling something in the form of a "commission" ( a fee LL levees for each sale)..........there is no charge until something is sold.  The seller gets that charge and the consumer does not.  That's a very sweet deal.....sell nothing and you are charged nothing, sell a bunch and you are charged a percentage of that bunch (you can't loose with a deal like that.....don't you wish real life was like that?).  Someone has to pay for any website on the Internet.  Someone has to pay for the bandwidth that every user (consumer or merchant) consumes.........that ain't free.  Someone has to maintain the site (the consumer doesn't and neither does the merchant).  All that is money (real money........not Linden dollars).  LL happens to be the one who foots all that expense (and more that we are probably not even aware of).  I doubt a 5% (or even a 10%) commission would pay for those expenses.  And you are bitching about ads (if not ads then anything else LL might put forth to help defer the expenses).  How would you make ends meet........short or charging a fee for a shop or business on the Marketplace?  Eat the expenses (which is what I think you believe is the solution) and end up closing Marketplace all together due to too much loss in revenue?  You seem to think you know business............is that sound business?"

 

Well, beyond getting into the whole sinks as monetization thing in great detail again, yes sinks are money. Sinks are money that "would have" been taken out of the economy but is instead absorbed by LL.

When they last published gross marketplace earnings, if you calculated the 5% commission as a real dollar exchange amount, it came out to over $100,000/month USD that the marketplace brings in.

Do I wish RL let me sell first and take a commission later? It does, consignment shops, Turbosquid, Amazon, wholesale accounts on credit with the ability to return unsold items, etc.

Do I think it's good business to use existing revenue to defray costs for free features in order to keep a good image? Yes.

 

"I love the red herrings like "universities".  What university do you think would have a Marketplace presence?"

They indicated that ads would go on all web properties, not just the marketplace. Ads on top of existing marketplace enhancements in the marketplace itself TO MERCHANTS is just double dipping. They're already paying for ads on the marketplace.

Ads EVERYWHERE of this caliber will be something that a university or non profit notices when it comes time to consider funding. Will it be a deal breaker? Not sure, but it's something they should think about.

I understand that you're not pro ads, neither am I necessarily anti-ads, only that this implementation is horrible and inconsiderate to especially merchants who already pay time, tier, comission, advertising and sinks to do business. The more extra ways they find to suck money out of the economy the less merchants make. As the world shrinks, it gets harder to profit and LL increases the money it takes to compete where those costs never existed previously. They're optional advertising opportunities, but they're also costs that never needed to exist before and there's no reason why a banner ad can't be both marketplace and off-marketplace advertising for a single fee.

As it is now, marketplace enhancements are broken, people have been over billed multiple times and some people can't cancel existing recurring ads. Now we're going to pile new advertising on top of broken advertising.

 

"Which reminds me...when was the last time LL increased the premium fees or tier?"

Premium they could do if they could actually find a way to add real value to justify it.

Tier? I hope they don't attempt it, because it's a pretty safe bet that they'd lose some hundreds of sims in the first week of a tier increase. It's rediculously high as it is.

 

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Good work..........I'm not convinced.  Mostly because of one of your first posts when you called anyone who disagreed with your view a "pimp" (maybe that tainted my confidence in your "knowledge" about what you are talking about.

See how that works?  You lost the argument at the instant...........you will probably never get it back (not with me anyway).

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Commenting in general now, not to any one specific.  I may copy this post over to the GD discussion also.


Ads don't bother me per se, I've come to accept them (have I been brain washed?) as a part of the Internet.  It's what pays for the content I get to enjoy so freely, and over all I accept the trade off.

One of the things some of us or possibly even many of us loved about SL when I started was that it was basically free of corporate taint.  For the most part, at least as it appeared to me, very few were buying virtual Nike running shoes or Toyota's to drive around the Grid in.  Some of us, and maybe even many of us, saw those things as an invasion of Our World, Our Imagination.  We were tuning in to SL to at least in part, tune out of RL.

So while there is no specific statement to this effect, my worry is that LL would try to bring this advertising In World, the one place that I absolutely would not want  to see stained by this stuff.  Kind of goes back to the old question, is anything safe (sacrosanct) any more?

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It seems that so much time wasting, mindless bickering goes on in all of these forums; mostly instigated, encouraged, and/or proposed by know-it-all post whores and LL cheerleaders.

It also dramatically cheapens the experience, in my opinion. Who has time for such petty megalomania?

Who CARES if Linden Labs EVER did anything right OR wrong. The official SL viewer is already chock full of unwanted advertising, but at least it is SL-related. For now.

 

The point here as far as I am concerned is unwanted and irrelevant SPAM, which is all these trash ads are. More unemployable advert-grad jackholes trying to force their worthless junk into my pocket, and my money into theirs.

Having products I don't want aggressively shoved in my face is not only extremely offensive, it is counterproductive to any form of sale, in my opinion...just like the insurance ads that constantly interrupt my streaming radio channels, do you really think I am ever going to buy your product or service just because you hope to bully me into doing so? You ruined my enjoyment of my chosen entertainment with a commercial interruption, which means I'll happily pay more to your less intrusive competitors, just to spite you.

 

 

SecondLife: the new official roosting spot for all things spam that have nothing to do with virtual environment anything.

 

Please note: I cannot justify nor care to join the rest of the keynote speakers as you each vie for the gold in the internet Special Olympics, so I now leave you to return to your inane arguing over nothing at all.

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haha I was gonna say don't include mesh

since "mesh" has been around for many many years in games and online games and TV and movies and advertising photos, a RL friend of mine has been working in CGI for god knows how many years, SL was behind the times!

 

Now if LL created a specialist program that could be in-world or stand alone to make mesh specific to SL and so to have it efficient now that would be something!

 

Actually LLdid do some thing that impressed the hell out of me a few years back................ Retiring M Linden

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The innovation is that mesh can be created by the users.......or, more correctly, amateurs.  Yes, mesh has been around for years.  But who introduced a platform where amateurs can take their shot at mesh?  EA sports?  Sony?

Did you know "smart phones" have been around for years too?  And who took the smart phone technology to a new level?  RIM (Blackberry) or Apple (iPhone)?  One or both of those companies are innovators........not that they created smart phones, but what they did with the technology.   That is what is known as innovation.

You can hate LL as much as you want.  It matters not to me.  But you're being dishonest when you say the company hasn't been innovative in the virtual world technology.

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