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Permissions on sculptie maps for food and drink to restrictive


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I make drinks and decanters.  I make other stuff too, but thats my main product.  What is a decanter?  It is something that gives something else away on a touch or from a menu.  Example:  i make a cup of Willowbark Tea.  That is the drink.  I place the drink into a prim I call "teapot".  The teapot is the decanter.  I can put one drink it.  I can put a hundred in it.  It is still called a decanter.  For this, I will call them cup and teapot.

I want to sell the teapot on the marketplace.  The teapot can have any permissions.  The cups in the teapot MUST have copy/trans rights or the teapot will break for the next user.  Guaranteed.  The reason is this.  If the cup in the teapot is copy only...or copy/mod, only the owner of the teapot will ever get a cup from it.  If the cup is transfer only or transfer/mod, the teapot will only ever give out one copy of the cup, then it will break.

This same applies to food.  If I build a tray with food on the tray that only vanishes or maybe vanishes and emotes that its being eaten, no problem.  The food can be any permissions.  If it is to give out food so that the next person can wear the piece of meat or cookie, problem.  Like the teapot above, if the food is not copy/trans (what is given out, not whats on the tray) the decanter will break.

I am unsure what the sculpt map makers are trying to protect with their tos.  If an item I build is copy/trans and no mod, no one can get a copy the map.  Yes they get a copy of the teacup.  But..its scripted.  And the scripts in it are no mod, no copy, transfer only.  SO they cannot change what it emotes, or who made it.  And it is my build, so if they give it away, they are still giving away what I made, not the map.  And yes, there may be a ton of copies of my willowbark tea, but that should be my worry, not the sculpt map makers.  As I, as a builder, am going to buy maps for my builds, they are not losing anything.

What really concerns me is not my builds.  I have an absolute ton of sculpt maps.  I make my own.  I buy them regularly from folks that do not have that tos or are willing to allow me to use thier maps with my tos on them.  What concerns me is the new builders coming up.  The ones that are starting out.  They cannot use these tos and I see the tos on more and more stuff.  And also what worries me is the folks that do buy the sculpt maps and use them on their builds and then either find out they cant give away/sell them as is..or choose to ignore the tos of the maker.  Both situations are totally unfair.  Either they, the builder run the risk of a dmca or else they wind up spending money on something they cannot use.

 

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Copyrights and Intellectual Property Rights is always a wide subject and not everyone seems to understand it.
You may not like the answers but maybe they help for a better understanding : )

In General:

- Copyrights or intellectual Property Rights are always bound to what license the "creator" or the legal  
  
copyrights owner has set for a product.
- The fact if it is only image or not doesn't make any difference either. Copyrights and Intellectual Property
   Rights also apply to images and any kind of real life or virtual artwork.
- For what and how you are allowed to use an object is defined by the license the creator has put on it.
   If you break any part of this he /she is of course free to take action.

Another factor to take in here:

quote: ".. If an item I build is copy/trans and no mod, no one can get a copy the map. 
Yes they get a copy of the teacup.  But it is scripted.  And the scripts in it are no mod, no copy, transfer only
. "

- the "yes they can get a copy of the cup" is exactly the breaking point here.
- In many of these scenarios someone can have this cup take out your script and just place it in his house
  and have a nice time looking at it. But he actually never paid for using this sculpty.


Quote: And it is my build, so if they give it away, they are still giving away what I made, not the map

- wrong assumption: you 'are' giving the map away. The map is what is shaping this 3D object.
  (which is the reason why you bought the map and did not just use a box.) If the user can not take out the
  map - that is not what the issue is here. He gets the full object, already shaped by the map.
- It is technically not your 'build' either. You have been making the script. The object shape was made by the
  sculpt creator. So its in best case a 'cooperation'.
- And in terms of IPR and CR you have already violented the rules by saying it's 'your' build.

An Example: what do you think would happen if you buy a music CD and let's say you put in second CD that contains installation files of some software you made and then tell everyone this all is completely your product ? I have a strong feeling you would have an appointment in  front of the court being asked for a lot money by the music label and the artist.

- Quote: yes, there may be a ton of copies of my willowbark tea, but that should be my worry, not the sculpt
  map makers.  As I, as a builder, am going to buy maps for my builds, they are not losing anything.


- This again depends on what 'license' you got for this object. If you bought it for full permission or just as a
  sculptpack for  personal non commercial use, and so on.
- What you pay for a full permission is always more then just the cost for a personal use sculptpack. Hereby the
  creator can include in the fullperm-price already the assumed costs / incomes for duplicates of this object.

But yeah we could go on for a long time like this - Best solution in this case is, as you noticed by yourself already:

• Find a creator who is offering you a license you like and which includes and absolute complete commercial usage rights of the map, and buy your sculpts from them.


For all the other packs you may have already bought with licenses that do not allow you these actions :
I have to say: you have to respect these. And in that case: just don't use them.

And just in case you want more info:

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I think your missing the point here.  What my point was is this:  The sculptie makers are making items that inherently should be used in a decanter..ie cups and mugs and glasses sculpties.  Things to make drinks from.  And then making it impossible to comply with their tos and make anything from them.  If you want to make a cup of tea to just set on a table, then thats fine.  But if you want to wear it, if you want your customers to wear it..then it must be copy/trans.

No one can comply with the tos folks are putting on these sculpts and build any kind of decanter.  I do not think there are many folks out there wanting to set out a teacup, tho I could be wrong.  I do know that there are alot of builders out there that must be buying the sculpts and then ignoring the tos. 

I know when I buy a texture in sl, I do not have to worry about these tos on the texture.  I have never seen a texture put for sale in sl where the tos say what permissions I must put on the finished product.  But that is rapidly becoming standard procedure on sculpt maps.  

 

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People making things that will be worn to eat or drink must be careful and read the TOS before buying things they will use to make them.  Even a new builder can presumably read the TOS. Being new doesn't excuse anyone from honoring a license. If the builder chooses to ignore it and is caught they can only blame themselves.

If the TOS are too restrictive, the creator won't sell to honest builders planning on selling food and drink items that must be worn  Maybe they have no wish to cater to this market or perhaps they don't want to sell under those terms to just anybody but if they are contacted and asked for permission they will grant it after they satisfy themselves that the builder has a legit business and will protect their maps. 

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It is a challenge.  It is especially a challenge when the tos are not clearly posted on the marketplace listing or when I go to their in-world shop and see no sign of their tos.  So I spend the money, buy the sculpt map and then find the tos says I cannot use it for my builds. 

Its very frustrating and restricting.  What I do not understand tho, is what they (the sculpt makers) are protecting.  A sculpt map is a texture.  Would you buy textures that had as part of their tos that you could not use the texture on anything that you made that was copy/trans?  or where the texture maker has as part of their tos what permissions you would put on your finished product?  If not..then how is a sculpt texture any different?  

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If the TOS are not clear prior to purchase, I think that a court of law would find them to be unenforceable.  TOS's are contracts giving you a license to use the product under certain terms in exchange for consideration, which is your money.  Your acceptance of the terms is indicated by your purchase. A contract isn't valid unless you enter into it knowingly and voluntarily, which is not the case if they don't give them to you until after the sale.

As far as the terms themselves, I agree that if the person you sell it to can't get the map, which they can't if it is no mod, then that is enough protection.  However it is still the IP owner's prerogative to set their own terms. 

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yeah. I understand your frustration.

But as Amethyst also said, they possibly don't have interest to sell their items for that kind of usage. Keep in mind even if they make a glass or cup, they maybe just want it to be used as 'decoration' and only allow you to include it in a build where you would link it to a furniture or similar items and only allow to sell it as part of these.

It's really up to the creator what he wants his work (in this case his sculptmaps) to be used for and in what way. And thus you are always bound to their license / the tos.

Generally you can mostly bargain a deal with a creator when you speak to them and ask for a special license on their maps. (They might of course charge something extra, or just adjust by making a personalized license for you).

Quote: I know when I buy a texture in sl, I do not have to worry about these tos on the texture.  I have never seen a texture put for sale in sl where the tos say what permissions I must put on the finished product.  But that is rapidly becoming standard procedure on sculpt maps.  

This also does vary: Textures for walls of buildings, or seamless stuff to use on builds differ a lot from Images that are made let's say for Skins. You can barely buy an Avatar-Skin texture as-is, and only bound into a skin with defined permissions. Also when you buy Skin-Texture-Templates they define very clearly on how these have to be altered before being included in any product you sell. And lets be honest - As artist I know myself how 'fast' I can make a set of textures to be used to cover buildings or objects, and how much longer it takes to make a good optimized sculpt, or even a mesh with UV maps etc. Thus the creators of textures that are plain meant to be used to 'cover builds' mostly do not care a lot for what permissions you put on the later object - but the more complex something becomes and maybe includes a lot effort and artwork or knowledge the more restricted their licenses might become.

PS: it is of course kind of misleading advertisement when they sell them with not enough information and then hand you their license 'after' you already purchaised. I still think you are bound to accept the terms when 'using' the maps. but here comes the 'but'..  i do however belive they have to refund you and you can delete the items when you don't agree with this belated recieved license.

So conclusion here just talk to them, and if you can't find an agreement then you have to look for someone else (and possibly ask for a refund) =)

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I have done both (asked for a refund and deleted the maps).  My issue is not with me building.  I have enough maps that I could build forever with what I have and not ever need another map.  I do still buy them because I want all my builds to look different.

What I believe is that alot of the sculpt makers are taking their tos from other sculpt makers and do not realize that their tos is so restrictive it prevents folks from using their maps on builds without breaking the tos. 

I have spoken to several map makers and shown them how a decanter works.  Once shown, most of them (not all, I agree, but most) have changed their tos or at least changed it for me.   I did not start this thread to help me.  I started it because I want to help other builders and map makers.  I would like the map makers to understand they are shooting themselves in the foot when they put these tos on their maps.  And I would like other builders to know what these tos mean to their builds.

In Second Life,  you cannot currently build a decanter of any kind..and that includes a cake that gives out slices of cake, a teapot that gives out cups of tea or anything else that gives out anything with items made from maps with those tos without breaking the tos.

I did contact the Lindens about this, and they told me that if you sell something full permission, that is exactly what it means.  Full permission.  That the person making the item cannot then go and add restrictions on how it is used.  They did say they would prevent me from reselling a texture I purchased, but not what I used the texture on.  I have not done so, but thought it was interesting that they have expressed the opinion that these tos are unenforcable.  It will be interesting to see how the tos are enforced on mesh items.  Unlike maps, you can actually see who made the mesh easily.  I use firestorm, and know I cannot see the map makers name on firestorm, but I understand other viewers do allow you to see who made the maps used to make an item and the name of the person who made the textures used on an item. 

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