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Lucretia Brandenburg

Re: thoughts wanted

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It seems to me that you know little about the true nature of genuine BDSM, whether because you have been involved in the scene with people who didn't know what they were doing, or whether because you are closed minded about it because you haven't studied it in depth. I have known Dom/mes and subs in RL and SL. To say that all dominants are abusive is like saying all cops are crooked. Yes, there are a rare few who are in the lifestyle due to pathologically low self esteem but the vast majority are not narcissists.

As for those with self esteem issues, in general, I've noticed that there seem to be more female dominants who expect men to grovel, who expect to be elevated to the status of a deity by their subs, and who are more into public humiliation and degrading their subs than male dominants. Note I say "in general" and "seems" ... I've never met a male dom who expected to be called God, King, or Prince for instance, whereas Goddess, Queen, and Princess are titles a good many Dommes expect.

I'm not saying that's the case of dominant women who expect their subs to grovel and all, I'm saying that if that is the argument, that such behaviors are indicative of low self esteem and an abusive nature to bolster that self esteem, then in your view, there are far more female "abusers" in the BDSM community than male "abusers."

Those involved in BDSM whom I've known all say the same thing about it, that Dominants and submissives are very much alike in that both are very nurturing and capable of great empathy. Seeing to each others' needs is paramount to both. Abusers care only about their needs. There is no negotiation, there are no safe words, there is no checking on the health or welfare of one's partner during activities that might lead to unintentional harm. Abusers harm on purpose. They wrest power and control from their victims. There are a few genuine, scary, sexual sadists out there and a few extreme masochists as well but they tend to be unwelcome in the BDSM community. A Dominant who doesn't respect safe words, who doesn't negotiate with a partner beforehand, or care about the genuine welfare of that partner will soon be hard pressed to find anyone in the community to play with. A submissive masochist who has no limits and will never say no is scary and rare.

It takes a very strong person to willingly submit to another; most submissives do not suffer from low self esteem, nor do they expect to be treated badly and won't tolerate that. Power is not wrested, unwillingly from a submissive "victim",  it is offered by the submissive to the dominant partner. It can be taken back as well. Victims of abuse live in varying states of fear for their lives and hatred for their abusers. It is rare for a submissive to have those same feelings toward a dominant partner.

There is a very informative presentation geared toward medical students in order to educate them about BDSM and what they may encounter in their future medical practices. It defines it very well, and also addresses misconceptions people have about BDSM. http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Libraries/Academy_Docs/BeyondWhipsAndChains.sflb.ashx

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i have finished reading all.

Leia, the story you shared is very moving, it left me wondering if the same level of love could have been possible if there was no d/s relationship in it, its very possible, people that dont practice BDSM love each other very much too.

Lucretia, thank you for the information, it was an interesting read.

Madelaine, im very glad that you and your friend loved each other and had a great time.

to be fair, we have to look at the pros and cons of BDSM, it may improve the attachment of the practitioners and bring some pleasure to them that they could not get otherwise, but can not deny the fact that in the cases were pain is involved, the body is biologically being abused, meaning intentionally creating damage, such as bruises, ripping of skin, the body sends pain to the brain as a signal that is being abused, meaning going beyond what your body is designed to take, therefore is physical abuse.

in the case of d/s, the dominant convince itself with a false assumption that it deserves better treatment than the submissive, unfairly supressing the submissive to reach a better state of life, that blockage of improvement is abuse.

while i respect what consenting adults may want to do in their private time, i still find abuse something deplorable, and is something that is not for me.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

i have finished reading all.

Leia, the story you shared is very moving, it left me wondering if the same level of love could have been possible if there was no d/s relationship in it, its very possible, people that dont practice BDSM love each other very much too.

Lucretia, thank you for the information, it was an interesting read.

Madelaine, im very glad that you and your friend loved each other and had a great time.

to be fair, we have to look at the pros and cons of BDSM, it may improve the attachment of the practitioners and bring some pleasure to them that they could not get otherwise, but can not deny the fact that in the cases were pain is involved, the body is biologically being abused, meaning intentionally creating damage, such as bruises, ripping of skin, the body sends pain to the brain as a signal that is being abused, meaning going beyond what your body is designed to take, therefore is physical abuse.

in the case of d/s, the dominant convince itself with a false assumption that it deserves better treatment than the submissive, unfairly supressing the submissive to reach a better state of life, that blockage of improvement is abuse.

while i respect what consenting adults may want to do in their private time, i still find abuse something deplorable, and is something that is not for me.

To use your examples of what constitutes abuse, a tattoo artist is an abuser. A person who administers piercings is an abuser. A plastic surgeon is an abuser. Boxing, wrestling, American football, Hockey, Rugby, any sport that has physical contact should then be made illegal, because by your definition, they are abusive.

You obviously have no idea what goes on in a D/s relationship. No one convinces themselves of anything. A submissive is a submissive and a Dominant is a Dominant.

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Okay,

 

I'm seeing 3 different threads on this discussion (however THAT is possible),

but not one of them seems to contain the original post (and most likely the start of

the discussion).  So, where can I find it ?  And why is it not here ?

 

 

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People can be mentail abussive, yes even in the so holy and special D/S relationship...maybe especially in that scene, where people meet that can fall prey to abusive behavior due to their character traits. It doesn't mean that it MUST happen, but it has its risks.

 

Despite this...*sighs* I'm sometimes wondering why BDSM seems to have such a famous status in SL and why it gets so celebrated.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

i have finished reading all.

Leia, the story you shared is very moving, it left me wondering if the same level of love could have been possible if there was no d/s relationship in it, its very possible, people that dont practice BDSM love each other very much too.

Lucretia, thank you for the information, it was an interesting read.

Madelaine, im very glad that you and your friend loved each other and had a great time.

to be fair, we have to look at the pros and cons of BDSM, it may improve the attachment of the practitioners and bring some pleasure to them that they could not get otherwise, but can not deny the fact that in the cases were pain is involved, the body is biologically being abused, meaning intentionally creating damage, such as bruises, ripping of skin, the body sends pain to the brain as a signal that is being abused, meaning going beyond what your body is designed to take, therefore is physical abuse.

in the case of d/s, the dominant convince itself with a false assumption that it deserves better treatment than the submissive, unfairly supressing the submissive to reach a better state of life, that blockage of improvement is abuse.

while i respect what consenting adults may want to do in their private time, i still find abuse something deplorable, and is something that is not for me.

The part I bolded doesn't seem to allow for the possibility that I don't actually operate under the false assumption that I deserve better treatment than others. I don't think that was your intent. If it was, I wonder what I've done to give you that impression.

As for the infliction of pain, I don't care for it, even when the religious do it to themselves (Pope John Paul II and others around the world). I think that sort of pain-play, born of the mish-mash of our pain-pleasure response, is too easily abused. And religions are entirely too familiar with the promulgation of abusive ideas. That said, I don't condemn them. I simply don't know enough about them. I remain wary.

Much higher up that slippery slope of self/other discipline, I do sometimes endure the pain of skipping the fudge brownie at dinner so I'll fit into my jeans at breakfast, and sometimes admonish others to do the same.

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there is a lot of people in the world that enjoy abuse in many areas, some lifestyles and cultures use it as a form of being in contact with one self, some others for pleasure, like the cutters, pain is not necessarly in all BDSM relationships, is not a general rule, as it is not a general rule to have a d/s relationship, your experience seem to be a very pleasant one, you didnt try to humilliate her and im sure it wasnt your intention to treat her badly. im pointing out the difference in rights, and by having a superior, there must be an inferior, i am a believer in equal rights, in anti-discrimination, in my view, having another human being as an inferior without the possibility to reach a higher status, an improvement of their lives, i may consider it abuse in some form, i know you enough to say that you may agree with me that abuse is not a good thing, and you are not looking forward to abuse anyone.

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you are right, the examples you mention are abusive biologically.

i havent been in a d/s relationship ever, it would be dificult for me to see another person considered lower than me, how people inside the relationship see it, i cant have an opinion about that, my perspective is that is an unfair distribution of rights.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

there is a lot of people in the world that enjoy abuse in many areas, some lifestyles and cultures use it as a form of being in contact with one self, some others for pleasure, like the cutters, pain is not necessarly in all BDSM relationships, is not a general rule, as it is not a general rule to have a d/s relationship, your experience seem to be a very pleasant one, you didnt try to humilliate her and im sure it wasnt your intention to treat her badly. im pointing out the difference in rights, and by having a superior, there must be an inferior, i am a believer in equal rights, in anti-discrimination, in my view, having another human being as an inferior without the possibility to reach a higher status, an improvement of their lives, i may consider it abuse in some form, i know you enough to say that you may agree with me that abuse is not a good thing, and you are not looking forward to abuse anyone.

Right. I do not condone the abuse of anyone. Canoro, D/s is not about superior/inferior. It is about a mutually agreed upon exchange of power in a situation. When I learned to fly, I paid my flight instructor more money than I could reasonably afford to tell me what to do. I wanted to fly. I did not know how. He did. Over the course of my 16th summer, he told me what to do and damn well expected me to do it. My life would ultimately depend on learning what he had to teach, even if I had to swallow some pride to do it. He never once made me feel inferior. More than once he made me feel I needed to work harder. He always made me feel I could achieve my goal.

I learned to fly. I think that qualifies, both literally and figuratively, as reaching a "higher status".

When I was a child, my Father guided me with a firm hand. Again, he never made me feel inferior, but he certainly exerted control. As Alzheimer's slowly took him away, the roles reversed and, with a great deal of reluctance and sorrow, I sometimes had to guide with a firm hand, and the certainty my Mother and I provided was a comfort to him.

That two people might find value in an exchange of power and control seems natural to me. I don't pretend to understand all the factors that ultimately determine whether such exchanges of power will be abused. I do believe that certain rituals, whether BDSM, religious, or social, can place people at risk. The best I can do is learn as I go, be wary of abuse in any form and hope that people will generally be responsible and kind enough to care for each other, even if in ways I do not fully understand.

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Canoro, your question is a good one, and I have little to add, Madelaine, Lucretia and Drake have said it all. Nobody has to participate and in RL this mostly happens behind closed doors. A few couples I know in RL can only participate occasionally, taking a weekend away from the kids for example. There is a very big difference between real abuse and D/s, the main difference is consent, being safe and being sane.

@ Syo Perhaps it seems like BDSM has a high profile in SL but that is the nature of SL isn't it? A few people want to explore this part of their sexuality and SL lends itself to that very well.

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A few? I have the feeling its all about that :catindifferent: and yes, sometimes this goes on my nerves, when it gets pushed up as the best thing ever in the world.

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Syo Emerald wrote:

A few? I have the feeling its all about that :catindifferent: and yes, sometimes this goes on my nerves, when it gets pushed up as the best thing ever in the world.

I think you are confusing the free sex sims with the BD/Sm ones. There are so few actually BD/SM sims on the grid. Far out shined by the furry ones. In actually BD/SM sims there is very little sex going on. I think this is what people are confused about. BD/SM is NOT about sex primarily. I have been going to the same sim for a few weeks now and i have yet to see ANY sex there.

You wander SL as an elf, sometimes as a furry. Do you enjoy doing that? would you say you like being a furry and an elf? Is it the best thing ever? Do you get pissed when you come across an area that says "No Furries"?

I don't understand wwhy people care what others do in SL. As long as no laws are broken and no one is getting hurt, why should it matter?

 

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In SL, I have known quite a few collared boys (not so many girls lately, I don't get out as much as I used to) ... that is, collared to other men, not women, for whom submission has nothing to do with sex. In fact, they've never had sex with their masters, they've never been tortured as a form of discipline or in an erotic way. 

Bondage & Discipline / Domination & Submission / Sadism & Masochism ... THAT is what the letters BDSM are generally held to stand for and it comes in all different flavors and combinations most people who buy into the stereotypes never consider. There are dominant masochists for instance, now that's quite a combination that no one ever considers but they exist. Sort of throws a wrench in the whole dominant people as abusers argument when they're the ones getting flogged :matte-motes-agape:

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Hello again, Conaletta. I just looked and apparently this thread has split into FOUR threads. Who can say why?

Here are links to the others. The one containing the original post is at the first one.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Lifestyles-and-Relationships/thoughts-wanted/m-p/1911347

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Re-thoughts-wanted/m-p/1918331

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion/Re-thoughts-wanted/m-p/1919901

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Right. I do not condone the abuse of anyone. Canoro,
D/s is not about superior/inferior. It is about a mutually agreed upon exchange of power in a situation.
When I learned to fly, I paid my flight instructor more money than I could reasonably afford... 

The bold^^ reads like double talk disguised in a pretty story about learning to fly (a plane as I assume you are not referencing Erica Jong.)   The very definition of a dominant/submissive is superior/inferior!  Even as you wrote a capital 'D' and lowercase 's' to represent the superiority of the dominant over the submissive.

Allowing/paying a skilled aviator to teach you to 'fly' is NOT a d/s relationship; of course the skilled aviator will motivate you by encouraging you to fly the plane... he doesn't want to crash while lending you control of the aircraft.  

I'm sorry, I just don't make the connection.     

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Its not about the sex thing. But it seems to come up regulary in discussions. As soon as BDSM gets even close to  be mentioned some sub/dom jumps out of the bush and starts to defend it or has the need to tell everybody how much greater and better his sex/relationship/life/cat is and how nobody can understand it (at least as long as the person isn't falling in a "oh, how exciting, how awsome!" mood).

And I could even stand an hour in a totally normal shop without some sub/slave/dom passing by. That gives me the feeling it outnumbers everything else in SL. I can't judge on all the sims, but there seem to be quite many dealing with at least some BDSM.

I like my elf ears, they give a nice extra to many outfits and are awsome for breaking the ice in a conversation. I also like my furries, they make me feel fit in when I visit furry clubs to hang out with some friends I found there. But I would never say my ears make me sexier than any human or that my feline avatar is better than a fox.
 Its definitly not the best thing ever and I get somehow pissed when I read rules that say human avatars only, because they are mostly senseless and poorly written (could give you an awsome example for that).

 

I'm not saying anybody should be doing BDSM in SL or anything else that is within the ToS.

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"As soon as BDSM gets even close to  be mentioned some sub/dom jumps out of the bush and starts to defend it or has the need to tell everybody how much greater and better his sex/relationship/life/cat is and how nobody can understand it"

 

 

Haha !  Yeah, I must say this seems true at times.

I even had someone trying his best to defend the whole thing

while I was just roleplaying an investigating cop on one of my chars.

 

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 A partnership between equals involving an exchange of power

A partnership

Two people, usually in love, who are living together in a relationship where both are dependent on the other


between equals

They are equal in standing, at any time either partner can call a halt can take a 'time out' can say NO! There is no fear or favour, there is no punishment there is no hate or anger, there is no abuse, there is never a hand raised, there is love and passion and commitment, trust and respect. NOTHING happens with out both parties consenting to the act, full stop

involving an exchange of power

Once both parties have FULLY understood the implications of the act and are willing to proceed, power exchanges hands, the submissive is then in under the dominants command, the scene proceeds to its conclusion but can be stopped dead by either party when anything seems amiss. The willing power exchange is the crux, the purpose of the scene and what that part of the relationship is geared to.

Like I have said over and over, its not for everyone. Probably you will put down my post but that's your ricebowl.

@Conaletta and all those complaining, when people make statements and draw conclusions about things they know little about, that put down people unfairly, you complain when they respond?  What if I started making conclusions unfairly about your SL? Wouldn't you defend yourself? You are welcome to your SL, leave mine alone please.

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What did I do ?


And where am I complaining.

 

Because I replied to that bit from Syo I quoted ?

I've never attacked anyone's right to defend themselves,

or even tell about themselves, or whatever.

I think you greatly misunderstand what I'm saying.

My reply wasn't about people defending themselves

against unfair attacks, it was about people

who go out of their way to defend their lifestyles

even when there's no need, or who keep praising

it like it is the holy grail of sexual-relationships.

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Well yes tone is hard to read here. Its using words like holy grail. Imagine you stepped into a crowded room filled with a diversity of people and someone stared exaggerating and laughing at your lifestyle or choices. Wouldn't you try to explain to them that they are wrong or exaggerating? Wouldn't you defend your self?

Each of these threads takes a swipe at BDSM at some point, don't the members of that community have the right to educate and/or explain?

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You fall over the fact I use 'holy grail' ?

I could just as well have used 'the second coming',

'or new butter' or whatever, it is just meant as

a way of saying they exagerate how great it is.

 

Why do you keep attacking me like that ?

I never complained about, never laughed at

anyone's lifestyle, and I even mentioned in the

previous reply that I have nothing against people's

right to defend themselves.

 

Take a look at my posts in the Rape Parties thread,

you will see I'm doing far from what you claim I'm doing.

 

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