Nudity in G areas

[Eileen Fellstein]

Yes Marybeth, lol. There's a big difference between someone changing and someone hanging out or going about their business in inappropriate attire for the sim. I worked in a  place with such rules for a while>generally the procedure was to give them a couple minutes to correct the situation after a discrete IM. If there was a problem and it was going to take longer, we'd ask them to leave and come back fixed. If they were obviously stalling and playing at some sort of game, they would get ejected or banned.

It really was more juvenile BS than dealing with actual juveniles most of the time. That's why I commented that is such a colossal waste of time expecting anyone to police that kind of thing. My experience is that in places without such restrictions, you usually don't see anywhere near the amount of people trying to parade around like that. The rules and restrictions are effectively like putting up a big target and sending out invitations for people to come and take shots at it. I have come to believe that some places on these types of sims have such rules for exacly that reason. It draws people the same way a train wreck does.

But yea, for the guidelines. Spell it out clearly. "No sexual activity or items used for such to be displayed, sold. promoted or used in these areas. No exposed genitalia. Please be sure to read and understand any additional rules posted on the sim or given by the sim owners."

Incredibly simple.Well, at least until you get the naked one day old man boggling at everything in portuguese

[vickiadams]

 They should define "private parts"

Wouldn't the term "private parts" be sufficient. Is there any ambiguity there?

[Eileen Fellstein]

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vickiadams wrote:

 

They should define "private parts"

Wouldn't the term "private parts" be sufficient. Is there any ambiguity there?

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I know you werent asking me, but in my experience, yes there is, though it's pretty clear to nearly everyone and most of the people that would challenge it would be doing so just for the sake of splitting hairs. That, unfortunately happens a lot more often than people would imagine.

 

The big deal with this one is nipples. Are those private parts? Anyone with an ounce of sense knows, women need to have them covered in such a place. Guys could go shirtless in an informal setting/event. Still, people will pick it apart and argue. Some might even try to say silly stuff like they thought 'private' was talking about the items in their purse or their holstered weapon. Yes, lol. People do try to pull crap like that.

[161488303349]

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Eileen Fellstein wrote:

My 4th grandchild is due any day in real life

I am part of 'all' and 'everybody' By that wording, number 3 leaves it wide freakin' open, lol. Yes, dear, that is very, very, VERY vague. Its actually nonsense language that belongs nowhere in any type of guide for anything. It assumes behavior and beliefs based solely on an age range that is not even close to being specified.

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yes it does

it means don't be lewd or foul mouthed. or be impolite in public. like mind your manners

is pretty simple to me this and not vague at all

if any of your children or grandchildren do behave like this then you correct them yes

they not silly. they work it out when they little children. is not like they forget this when they get older. they maybe pretend sometimes that don't have to mind their manners. but they know they should. and so do everybody else know that they know

 

 

[RobertThorp]

vickiadams wrote:

 

They should define "private parts"

Wouldn't the term "private parts" be sufficient. Is there any ambiguity there?

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Eileen Fellstein wrote

I know you werent asking me, but in my experience, yes there is, though it's pretty clear to nearly everyone and most of the people that would challenge it would be doing so just for the sake of splitting hairs. That, unfortunately happens a lot more often than people would imagine.

 

The big deal with this one is nipples. Are those private parts? Anyone with an ounce of sense knows, women need to have them covered in such a place. Guys could go shirtless in an informal setting/event. Still, people will pick it apart and argue. Some might even try to say silly stuff like they thought 'private' was talking about the items in their purse or their holstered weapon. Yes, lol. People do try to pull crap like that.

                                                                                

Eileen is right. In RL criminal law there are problems with laws in some U.S. states that make public exposure of private parts illegal, but don't address the question of adult female nipples. Some people think they are "private", and some people think they are not. In some states female nipples (and areolas) are specifically defined as "private parts"; in other states they are not so defined. The term "private parts" is, in some states, defined as body parts used in excretion and reproduction. There are exceptions for breast feeding. This definition leads to the assumption that nipples are private parts (why have the breast feeding exception if nipple are not private parts).

Reasonable people will disagree about whether female nipples should be classed as "private parts". But, one way or the other,  it should be defined.

In the SL terms of service there should also be an explicit exemption of nudity in a dressing room, private home, or other place where it would not be possible for someone to see you without positioning their camera.

Bob

[Dillon Levenque]

I'm surprised that this topic has stayed active this long, but seeing it every day I've been thinking about it, too. Originally I was in full agreement with your suggestion that the TOS verbage was too vague and that it really needed crystal clear definitions, but I no longer think that way.

Yes, the TOS can be pretty vague. Maddenlingly so at times. I'll use as an example the business that confused me earlier, when I thought stores selling 'sexy' clothing would be a no-no in General since the rules for Moderate suggest that they might be allowed, and not need to be in Adult. Turns out the rules for General say nothing about what kind of clothes you can sell. It would be REASONABLE to think 'sexy' clothes are not to be sold in General, based on what it says about that in Moderate, but it doesn't actually say so.

In a way, the same goes for nudity. I do think the rules can forget all about private parts. I see no reason why they can't say exposed genitalia are against the rules. If they want to get into the holocaust of whether males or females can be topless, fine. Either way there's no reason not to ban exposed genitalia. The toplessness can be gender-based, ignored, or allowed. But again that doesn't solve the problem.

What are the rules if someone's genitals are exposed because she changed pants in a dressing room?. I don't see how that question can be answered for all cases and all possible scenarios. (I am ignoring male genitals in this discussion for the very good reason that visible male genitalia are attachments every time—visible female genitalia are part of a female skin, possible additional attachments notwithstanding).

After thinking about it I am of the opinion that the 'don't do anything you wouldn't want your grandmother to see' is probably the best solution. MOST of us get that. The ones that don't won't care about rules either way, as has been pointed out already. For the rest: be aware that someone could catch you doing something that might technically be defined as a TOS violation, and be prepared to deal with the results if that happens.

[161488303349]

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RobertThorp wrote:

vickiadams wrote:

 

They should define "private parts"

Wouldn't the term "private parts" be sufficient. Is there any ambiguity there?

---

Eileen Fellstein wrote

I know you werent asking me, but in my experience, yes there is, though it's pretty clear to nearly everyone and most of the people that would challenge it would be doing so just for the sake of splitting hairs. That, unfortunately happens a lot more often than people would imagine.

 

The big deal with this one is nipples. Are those private parts? Anyone with an ounce of sense knows, women need to have them covered in such a place. Guys could go shirtless in an informal setting/event. Still, people will pick it apart and argue. Some might even try to say silly stuff like they thought 'private' was talking about the items in their purse or their holstered weapon. Yes, lol. People do try to pull crap like that.

                                                                                

Eileen is right. In RL criminal law there are problems with laws in some U.S. states that make public exposure of private parts illegal, but don't address the question of adult female nipples. Some people think they are "private", and some people think they are not. In some states female nipples (and areolas) are specifically defined as "private parts"; in other states they are not so defined. The term "private parts" is, in some states, defined as body parts used in excretion and reproduction. There are exceptions for breast feeding. This definition leads to the assumption that nipples are private parts (why have the breast feeding exception if nipple are not private parts).

Reasonable people will disagree about whether female nipples should be classed as "private parts". But, one way or the other,  it should be defined.

In the SL terms of service there should also be an explicit exemption of nudity in a dressing room, private home, or other place where it would not be possible for someone to see you without positioning their camera.

Bob

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I don't get it

like you pojnt to all the problems when attempt to define private parts. and then say the solution is to define private parts

take the nipple case

make a ToS that say nudity is defined by exposed nipples and genitalia

ok. edge case it. two pasties and a string thong. multiple by 100% physics and shape sliders. is now ToS legal

someone says lol you butt nekkid. but is allowed

so ok add to ToS. nudity now include butt nekkid. which part butt nekkid??? crack or cheeks ??? umm! crack. ok !!! look close ok bc I got a one pixel wide flesh color butt crack filler on

and on and on it goes

is nuts to go down this path

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the ToS G provision is about conduct. is not just about nekkid

if start define nekkid then have to define other conducts. like words. swear words. and then have to define lewd. what constitutes lewd to make a list

like: hey babe I could really **** your pixels

which words go on the **** proscribed list ???

like nekkid is a never ending story this one

 

 

 

[161488303349]

add more bc I got nothing better to do right now (:

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notice to all SL gels and boiz

the hems of all gels skirts must not be shorter than the tips of the fingers when a gel stands poised naturally. Furthermore, this rule apply to gels and boiz shorts also. you are all young ladies and gentlemen and will deport yourself accordingly at all times

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lol SL person/dude/girl/whoever. you got stubby little arms !!! they only come down to your waist !!! lol

I know !!!! i get them with my matching shorts. hehe !!!

(:   

[AnnAdams]

Dillon,

Yes, it is surprising that this thread has gone on for so long. And it was the first thread that I started!

I think that the TOS should be clearer, particularly about dressing rooms. I think that it should be clear that rules about nudity do not apply in dressing rooms. There is a pool with men's and women's dressing rooms in a G area. It should be very clear than you do not need to wear underwear or pasties to take off your bathing suit and get dresses in the appropriate dressing room.

The fact that there is disagreement on this thread indicates that it needs to be clear.

As for definition of private parts, the RL law does need to be very explicit, but I think that the SL TOS can be less explicit. But it should be clear whether or not nipples are included. I do not have any problem with allowing nipples to be shown in public in a G area. I don't think that it is a problem. In the US very few women have any desire for their nipples to be seen. In some other countries very few people would object. I have spent a few summers in areas of Europe where it was not uncommon for women to sunbath in parks topless, and for families with children to be around. But you would not see that in the US (or at least, I haven't).

Others may disagree about whether female nipples should be "private parts".

I hate to be sexist, but the problem with exhibitionists "flashing" people in public is more of a problem with men showing off their "short comings". I haven't heard of women popping open a raincoat with nothing underneath.

Ann

[161488303349]

I don't think linden ever going to say that womens nipples on G land are ok

mostly bc it open up all kinds of problems with the different countries like you say

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also linden made it so that can change out layers. so is not necessary to ever get totally naked when changing clothes

linden always attempt to create technical solutions for most these kinds of things SL. one thing they could add to official viewer is Wear On. which is on some TPVs. is pretty cool that. like if wearing more that one thing of same layer type then can Wear On: top, under, or replace anything already on that layer

is used heaps this with makeup and hair bases on tattoo layer for example

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if look at it objectively from technical pov then only time we ever actual need get naked is when want to check out our skins. like we buy a demo or we sorting out inventory and cant remember what that one looks like

anything or anytime other than this is bc we have other reasons to get naked. social reasons for the most of us. anti-social for some small tiny number of people

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edit add: other time we might need get total naked is when we making stuff that designed to go with naked. but creators who do this pretty much don't set up shop on G land

 

[Marybeth Cooperstone]

I agree that the Lindens will not accept nipples in G areas. I don't think there is any need to not allow them, but I suspect that most people would agree with keeping them out of G areas. But either way, the TOS should specifically define whether or not exposed nipples are allowed in G areas.

The TOS should also make it clear that nudity is allowed in dressing rooms and private homes. I use dressing rooms to check half made undies that I am making. That is exposing private parts, except that I am in a room where no one can see me. While, technically it will work, I don't think that people should have to wear underwear under bathing suits so theycan change in a private dressing room.

Although the TOS and incorporated part of the KB are ambiguous, they really cannot be interpreted other than to except such private places as dressing rooms and homes. While most people would not feel comfortable undressing in front of their grandmother or a grade school class, they would feel comfortable undressing in a closed room at their grandmother's house or using a teacher's restroom at a grade school.

But that is apparently not obvious to all. So it should be made explicit.

Marybeth

FLICKR

[161488303349]

can only go on my own experience. I get to that later. first tho

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in terms of SL land mass. G is the smallest. it just recently been surpassed by A. M is the largest

so just on these numbers there is no sound basis or reason that prevents anyone who do want to wander round in a state of undress is prevented from doing so

like has been said before when this matter comes up.is about 28,000 sims. 4,000 sims are G. so like what 24,000 sims to get naked in is not enough? like naked people somehow need the other 4,000 as well

is insanity when sometimes someone tries argue: yes i/we do. for this that and somehow some other reason

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ok

my own experience. back in the day 2007-2009 when we had the great invasion of people came to SL in the 10s of 1000s every day. I made a changing rooms for them who wanted a bit of privacy to change their clothes. was nothing else on the parcel. just a platform with chairs. when sit on them they wiz up in the sky and make a box changing room. as private as the viewer/parcel controls allowed in them days

the parcel was named as a changing/dressing rooms and could be found in Search. quite a few people came. same like they do now to other changing/dressing rooms. modest people they were/are

at any given minute 24/7 was 1-6 avatars on the parcel in the rooms in various states of undress. opening boxes. trying on their outfits. sorting their inventories, uploading clothing textures they made. etc

so that was ok..  what was also ok was that the rooms were on G land. linden never acted against me or the rooms. ever

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like I been saying already. the no nudity rules on G land need be considered closely. linden have never ever said that avatars cannot be naked ever never on G land. is not in the ToS

where do linden tho specific say that avatars cannot be naked on G land?

at Linden G Welcome Areas, Infohubs and Sandboxes. there are signs posted on those parcels that specific prohibit avatar nudity

by extension the residents/us have come to accept that this restriction apply to all public linden owned G land. is a convention this. bc of the grandmother rule which apply to all G land. both linden and private

can go round and round on this. so i can only repeat that the grandmother rule is about conduct. gratuitous displays of public nakedness for their own sake on G land are a matter of conduct. is 24/4 against gratuitous acts of conduct you see