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How do I get a refund from a Marketplace seller who falsely advertised?

Kirinn Vollmar

By Kirinn Vollmar,
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Kirinn Vollmar

Kirinn Vollmar

Posted
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I recently bought a 6000L$ all mesh avatar on the MP and nowhere on the item description did it state that I had to purchase a 20000L$ viewer in order to use the avatar. It stated I had to use a special viewer, but did NOT list that it had to be purchased.


I'm not happy with this, and am NOT paying 20000L$ to get their viewer. Where and how do I go about getting my 6000L$ back for this piece of crap avatar? I've contacted the seller multiple times and attempted to go to their store in world (which doesn't even exist now) and I'm feeling like I've just been ripped off. Someone, please please help me.

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Ariel Vuissent

Ariel Vuissent

Posted
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Probably because you have. I'm not sure how exactly they would be able to force you to use a specific viewer in order to use a product, but it sounds like a scam to me. If the seller isn't responding, your only option is to submit a ticket with LL, but LL doesn't involve themselves in resident-to-resident disputes, which I believe this would be considered. This may be a live-and-learn experience. No legitimate product that I've ever heard of requires that you use a specific viewer. Mesh products, of course, require a mesh-capable viewer, but there are a lot of those now, including the official viewer, and they are free. If you see a product that says you need a special viewer other than just one that is capable of mesh, I would be automatically suspicious.

I tihnk you'll have to take the loss on this one, unless you can get ahold of the creator. LL will most likely refuse to involve themselves.

 

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Pamela Galli

Pamela Galli

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I filed a ticket with LL, and they stated all I can do is continue to attempt to contact the seller to resolve my issue.

 

How exactly is this legal? They provide sellers with the marketplace, and yet they can scam people and we're just supposed to ...suck it up and go 'oh well' ? I'm never using the marketplace again.

 

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Syo Emerald

Syo Emerald

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That doesn't make any sense, really. What has the Marketplace to do with that?

If you would have brought that product inworld...where exactly did you expect to get more informations? It would have been the same result for you. Also I don't really understand how someone can sell a viewer...

This is in fact not possible, if you ask me. A viewer is a real software installed on your computer and I can't think of someone creating a whole new viewer just for one avatar.

Also I don't get why you would need a specific viewer for a mesh product...all mesh is the same in SL and doesn't depend on the viewer. (as long as the viewer is able to show mesh in general).

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Dillon Levenque

Dillon Levenque

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I can't imagine why you'd need any special viewer for an avatar, and I've never heard of a viewer that anyone had to pay for (not to say they don't exist; just that it's something I've never seen).

The people that have said that LL won't get involved are almost certainly right, I'm afraid. One of, if not THE first post I ever made here was to ask how to file a complaint for undelivered merchandise. I found out there is no way to do that. It's how Second Life works. Resident to resident. LL specifically says they won't get involved. It's like that is part of THEIR ToS. Maybe they call it the Prime Directive.

I do have at least a couple of suggestions. One mirrors the one you already got to post a review in the MP page, and don't hold back. I think if I were you I'd also hunt around in both the Commerce Forum and the Creation Forum and post your question there. You might find a merchant or creator who is interested enough to ask you for more info inworld and maybe help get the situation resolved.

Honest merchants (that is to say, the vast majority of SL's if my experience is any indication) do not like crooks in their patch.

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Kirinn Vollmar wrote:

How exactly is this legal? They provide sellers with the marketplace, and yet they can scam people and we're just supposed to ...suck it up and go 'oh well' ? I'm never using the marketplace again.

 

 

It is legal because when you joined SL you agreed to the TOS when you created your account.  Presumably you read it before you agreed.  If you didn't that doesn't negate the fact that you agreed with it and it is now legally binding on you.

 

Here are the applicable provisions from the TOS:

 

4.3 Linden Lab is a service provider and is not responsible or liable for the Content, conduct, or services of users or third parties.

You understand that Linden Lab is a service provider that enables its users to interact online and display and communicate information and Content chosen by those users, and that users likewise can alter the service environment on a real-time basis. Linden Lab does not control or endorse the Content of communications between users or users' interactions with each other or the Service.

You acknowledge that you will be exposed to various aspects of the Service involving the conduct, Content, and services of users, and that Linden Lab does not control and is not responsible or liable for the quality, safety, legality, truthfulness or accuracy of any such user conduct, User Content, or user services. You acknowledge that Linden Lab does not guarantee the accuracy of information submitted by any user of the Service, nor any identity information about any user. Your interactions with other users and your use and purchase of User Content or user services are entirely at your own risk.

 

10.1 Linden Lab is NOT liable for its users' actions, and you release Linden Lab from any claims relating to other users.

You agree not to hold Linden Lab liable for the Content, actions, or inactions of other users. As a condition of access to the Service, you release Linden Lab (and its officers, directors, shareholders, agents, subsidiaries, and employees) from claims, demands, losses, liabilities and damages (actual and consequential) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, arising out of or in any way connected with any dispute you have or claim to have with one or more users, including whether or not Linden Lab becomes involved in any resolution or attempted resolution of the dispute. If you are a California resident, you waive California Civil Code Section 1542, which says: "A general release does not extend to claims which the creditor does not know or suspect to exist in his favor at the time of executing the release, which if known by him must have materially affected his settlement with the debtor." If you are a resident of another jurisdiction, you waive any comparable statute or doctrine.

 

The very same thing could have happened if you had bought the item in world.  Fraud of this kind is not limited to the MP only.  If I had read a special viewer was required for something, I would have contacted the merchant for more information prior to purchase.  Even if the viewer were free I would not use a TPV that is not certified. 

I doubt you will get your money back unless the Creator give it to you as LL will not.  Other than continue trying to contact the creator, the only thing you can do at this point is write a review of the product to warn others, and flag it for misrepresentation.

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Porky Gorky

Porky Gorky

Posted
Posted

Kirinn Vollmar wrote:

How exactly is this legal? They provide sellers with the marketplace, and yet they can scam people and we're just supposed to ...suck it up and go 'oh well' ? I'm never using the marketplace again.

 

If you purchased the item through the MP and used paypal to make payment then you may be able to use Paypal's buyer protection to get your money back. 

 

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Ansariel Hiller

Ansariel Hiller

Posted
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Kirinn Vollmar wrote:

I recently bought a 6000L$ all mesh avatar on the MP and nowhere on the item description did it state that I had to purchase a 20000L$ viewer in order to use the avatar. It stated I had to use a special viewer, but did NOT list that it had to be purchased.

 

So the description says you need a specific viewer (prolly a trojan-pested one or coming with other evil features you definitely never ever should buy or use), but what happens if you try to use that avatar on your normal viewer? Did you ever try that? If it works, forget whatever is said about the special viewer.

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Porky Gorky

Porky Gorky

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

It is legal because when you joined SL you agreed to the TOS when you created your account.  Presumably you read it before you agreed.  If you didn't that doesn't negate the fact that you agreed with it and it is now legally binding on you.

 
Here are the applicable provisions from the TOS:

 

 

 

 

 

How far do you think that TOS will protect LL in an instance where a consumer buys something from the marketplace using Paypal?

If LL takes a percentage of that paypal payment and the product is not delivered, doesn't that make them partially accountable for the failed delivery in the eyes of Paypal?

We might have chosen to follow the TOS and have accepted LL's complete lack of accountability when it comes to user to user transactions. but would that have any relevance when a product is purchased via paypal? Shouldn't LL be held accountable in that instance?

This is just thinking out loud rather than questions aimed at you Amethyst. But if you or anyone else have any answers then go for it.

 

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Ariel Vuissent

Ariel Vuissent

Posted
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IF you paid with PayPal, there's still hope - you can contest the charges. You might get your money back that way. However, it sounds like you paid with $L, in which case, your options are very limited.

1) Flag the item on the Marketplace as Not As Advertised. That's actually not 100% true, because it sounds like you recieved the product, which did specify that you would need a special viewer. But since it didn't say you'd have to pay for the viewer, it applies well enough.

2) Leave a negative review on the Marketplace. Keep it clean, so that it doesn't get removed, but feel free to express your displeasure there.

3) Continue attempting to contact the seller. Send an IM. Wait a day or so. Send a notecard. wait a day or so. Send both at the same time. Remember that  not all sellers are on every day, so give it time. I suspect that you have fallen victim to a scam, in which case you're unlikely to recieve a response, but it's worth trying anyway. Keep all contact polite. Don't give the seller any reason to report you for harassment; be polite, but insistent.

How does the avatar look in a regular viewer? It's very odd that it would require an alternate viewer to look as it should. What viewer are you using now?

Since LL has told you they can't help you, you're out of luck there. Unless the merchant either helps you figure out how to make the product work WITHOUT spending the extra money or gives you a refund, or unless you used PayPal, the money is a loss. LL won't give it back to you; they state right in the ToS that they take no responsibility for user content.

It's always a good idea to view a product inworld before purchasing. Rigged mesh items, like avatars, should ALWAYS have a demo. If they don't, DO NOT buy them. Because rigged mesh items cannot be edited, they come as-is, so if you can't try, don't buy. Period. You can avoid the marketplace if you wish; you wouldn't get any more help from LL had you purchased inworld, but you would have been able to see the product.

The nice thing about purchasing from the marketplace is that at least you can leave a negative review. Inworld, you can't even do that.

Live and learn. I'd put your chances at getting your money back at slim to none, sorry to say. I wish we could help you more, but that's the fact, frankly. Good luck, though; I hope you get some form of resolution.

 

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Ciaran Laval

Ciaran Laval

Posted
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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The very same thing could have happened if you had bought the item in world.  Fraud of this kind is not limited to the MP only.  If I had read a special viewer was required for something, I would have contacted the merchant for more information prior to purchase.  Even if the viewer were free I would not use a TPV that is not certified. 

I doubt you will get your money back unless the Creator give it to you as LL will not.  Other than continue trying to contact the creator, the only thing you can do at this point is write a review of the product to warn others, and flag it for misrepresentation.

LL should reimburse and they have the power to do so, they take a cut of marketplace sales, if this were to happen on a platform such as ebay there would be a disupute process and in the case of not as described items the buyer gets a refund.

LL have far more power than ebay to check these things out, I can see items that match the OP's description on the marketpace and it does not state that a special viewer is required and if it is a viewer, it's breaching guidelines on the name of viewers for a start.

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Posted

Ciaran Laval wrote:

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

The very same thing could have happened if you had bought the item in world.  Fraud of this kind is not limited to the MP only.  If I had read a special viewer was required for something, I would have contacted the merchant for more information prior to purchase.  Even if the viewer were free I would not use a TPV that is not certified. 

I doubt you will get your money back unless the Creator give it to you as LL will not.  Other than continue trying to contact the creator, the only thing you can do at this point is write a review of the product to warn others, and flag it for misrepresentation.

LL should reimburse and they have the power to do so, they take a cut of marketplace sales, if this were to happen on a platform such as ebay there would be a disupute process and in the case of not as described items the buyer gets a refund.

LL have far more power than ebay to check these things out, I can see items that match the OP's description on the marketpace and it does not state that a special viewer is required and if it is a viewer, it's breaching guidelines on the name of viewers for a start.

My post only was to answer the question the OP had about it being legal with the facts, not express an opinion.  I didn't say I agreed in principle to LL's position.  It really doesn't matter what I think or not because like everyone else I agreed to the TOS when I joined SL.  If someone doesn't like it, their only option is to leave SL or try to get LL to change it, and good luck with that.  The fact is that SL is not ebay and what ebay does has no application here.  LL doesn't have near the staff ebay does to handle this kind of thing.

The bottom line is that if you have to agree to something you better read it and understand it before doing so.  I have no patience with people that don't read and understand things before agreeing to them.  If they don't understand, it is their responsibility to seek out someone who can so that they can explain it to them.  If they are legally competent and they don't take the steps necessary to protect their own interest, they only have their self to blame.

@Porky

I think it would depend on what agreement LL has with PayPal as to if PayPal could reverse the charge or not.  I owned a RL business at one time and accepted credit cards, there was a specific contract between me and the bank that handled the charges and the CC company that governed everything.  I don't know since I never accepted PayPal in my RL business,  but I suspect that PayPal has such a contract with LL.  PayPal may have insurance that covers any buyer protection that they offer for all I know.

It is also hard to say what a court would do if it got that far.  They could throw it out due to the TOS agreement which waives all rights except what is spelled out in the TOS.  It is legal to have this type of waiver in a contract as the OP had a right to refuse to accept the terms and not join SL.  They could also throw it out telling the OP that he has to sue the merchant not LL.  On the other hand, maybe the OP could get their money back because LL runs the MP.  But I think it would take a really good lawyer to represent you and who is going to pay all those costs to fight for about 25US?

It would certainly be interesting if someone did sue to see what happened.

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Kirinn Vollmar

Kirinn Vollmar

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Update:

 

 


As of right now, the seller's store on the MP has been shut down and removed. All items have been removed.

 

The seller DID contact me on my review of his item, earlier today, and when I asked for a refund there, he did not respond. Either he deleted his entire store himself, of LL did. I don't know.


It saddens me a great deal that the only money I had...was stolen from me. I know 6000L$ might not sound like a lot of money to most people, but to me, it was the first spending cash I've had in over a year. I'm really, really disheartened by this situation. Now I'm left with an avatar that has nothing because I invested in this 'mesh avatar' instead of buying a skin/shape etc.

I appreciate the input and everything from everyone. Today was my frist day back on SecondLife in a long time. It has left a very bitter taste in my mouth, sadly. I had looked so forward to coming back...

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Madeliefste Oh

Madeliefste Oh

Posted
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LL has put the marketplace doors open for cheaters, frauds,  charlatans, cheaters, thiefs, tricksters, chiselers, sharks, clips, absconders, con artists,  counterfeiters, deceivers, dodgers, grifters,  rascals, rooks, scammers,  defrauders, sharpers, falsifiers, slickers and crooks.

The responsibility to deal with them is reserved for shopping residents.

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Phil Deakins

Phil Deakins

Posted
Posted
Porky Gorky wrote:
Dilbert Dilweg wrote:

/me wonders if LL keeps the commissions obtained thru fraudulent sales

This is the key issue I think. Everytime LL takes their cut of the "swag" from nefarious products sold on the MP they
possibly
become complicit to the crime.

"Possibly" is a good word in this case. To the best of my knowledge, LL charges the seller a commission, which means that the buyer doesn't pay LL anything and, therefore, has no financial claim against LL.

On the other hand, it can be seen that LL is taking a share of fraudulently obtained money, which would be a criminal offense if they were aware of it - and if the Linden money was accepted as real currency. I suspect that a resonable argument could be made on both sides of that. If the 'not real money' argument prevails, then the virtual goods argument must surely win; i.e. virtual good (credits) have been received by LL in a fraudulent transaction, and LL should be culpable for that act. I don't think that the ToS would be a defense for them. The OP doesn't want real money back, and the OP has made LL aware of the fraud, so, at the very least, LL should refund their share of the illgotten gains. It wouldn't soothe the OP but it would be something.

Imo, LL does not have a leg to stand on if they don't accept that they are part of the fraud, and act accordingly.

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Czari Zenovka

Czari Zenovka

Posted
Posted

Syle Devin wrote:

So the mesh avatar does not work in the regular viewer? Is there nothing at all that shows up, no body parts or clothing? 

This was my immediate thought as well.

@OP - If you have not been in SL for awhile, many things have changed - the introduction of mesh items/clothing/avatars being one of them.  As others have asked, what viewer are you currently using?  If you could tell us that, then someone here could tell you if you are using an old non-mesh enabled viewer, in which case updating to a new version will solve the issue, provided your PC can run those viewers.  "Most" can; there is the rare exception, like me...lol...but I'm working on that.  If you *are* already running a mesh-enabled viewer, then perhaps there is some issue with the settings that someone could help you with.

Considering the money you spent (and to me, 6000L is a lot of money, so I feel for you), I do hope you let us know what viewer you are using and let us help.  I just can't imagine mesh that requires a "purchased viewer" - unless, of course, this item is truly not mesh and was a scam from the start but let's hope not.

 

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