The Impact Of Server Side Baking

[Henri Beauchamp]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Ansariel Hiller wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I think perhaps you should read Henri's comment again. He's basically saying that Niran is full of beans.

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What puzzles me is how Henri could have tested to see if RLV worked if scripts were not enabled on test Grid.

Did they finally get enabled?  The last I had read was the TPV's requested this. 

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Scripts are now enabled on some test regions, since one or two days...

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Henri's comment was posted on the 15th (yesterday) so then it is possible he has tested it.

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Stop spreading FUD, folks:

1.- I said nothing about Niran and his viewer, ever !

2.- You don't need scripts to test the compatibility between RLV and the server-side baking code and, more exactly, the refactoring of the code that is actually common to both baking methods, the part dealing with RLV features not even being the one that deals with actual baking, but simply with removal/wearing of clothing items: if RLV works fine in non server-side baking regions, it will also work fine in server-side baking ones, because the RLV code is called way before baking does happen (it is only called when you (or scripts) try and wear or remove clothing items: it's all viewer-side stuff: the server doesn't care or even know whether your viewer uses RLV or not, it just replies to the viewer request to rebake whatever the viewer decided your avatar should be wearing). My guess is that RLVa is impacted because it is written differently than the genuine RLV and had many tests spread all over the code (especially the COF code, COF that I didn't use and reimplemented in a straight, simple, no-brainer way in just under 4 hours) that has been refactored (when my RLV implementation only called the RLV code in two places in the code that got refactored): doing an automatic, "en bloc" merging of LL's code changes (I merged it all by hand, file after file, line after line, in under two weeks during part of my free time) probably caused many rejects in RLVa viewers but server side baking itself is for nothing at all in this mess.

3.- Even in a no scripts region, you can get attached items scripts to work (just fly 50+ meters above the ground and/or use scripts which use a llTakeControls()), and that's all you need to test RLV scripts.

 

[Qie Niangao]

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1.- I said nothing about Niran and his viewer, ever !

 

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Quite right, and I'm sorry for generating that confusion. What I was trying to say was that your comment on Nalates' blog contradicted Niran's claim that SSB "breaks RLVa literally everywhere where it could get broken" (as Perrie pointed out in message #6 in this thread), but another poster seemed to think you were worried about SSB breaking RLVa.

Your comment was not directed at Niran, it was not in response to Niran; it was an independent observation that happened to conflict with Niran's assertion.

I'm sorry for wording that implied otherwise, and for the ensuing confusion.

[Perrie Juran]

Thank you Henri for responding in this thread.

One of the reasons I started it was seeing varied information scattered in different places.  People have questions and this is the best way I know to start getting answers.

We don''t know yet what the initial impact will be.  We are hearing that there are bugs and LL's track record for releasing things before they are ready for prime time is pretty ubiquitous. 

I'm not expecting the worse...I am not trying to promulgate doom and gloom.  But people need to be prepared that there may be some serious bumps in the road ahead.

Again, Thank you.

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

Perrie Juran wrote: "I'm not expecting the worse...I am not trying to promulgate doom and gloom.  But people need to be prepared that there may be some serious bumps in the road ahead."

I expect, that with SSB, Avatar rendering will considerably improve.
Case in point: A few days ago, I had a nice chat with a neighbor, when her friend came over as well.
Or to be exact, his Head, hands and feet came over, the rest was missing. The trousers came after about 5 minutes,
followed by the shirt after another 5 minutes. I expect SSB to fix these loading problems.

The only thing I don't understand is, why server side baking has any influence on RLV/RLVa.
I understand the RLV-technology as a form of access control, blocking access to certain viewer functions.
It should not matter, which part of the system does the texture baking.

 

 

[161488303349]

Henry Beauchamp made a good explantion of it earlier here. he say that codewise it have no effect on RLV

is just lots of refactoring work if on your TPV the codies made lots of departures from the linden way to their viewer

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linden at this time have been saying that SSB only works on avatar skins and clothing/tattoo layers that are grouped in a outfit under Outfits. the old way of baking clientside still works like it do now as well. like if you put each layer on direct from inventory

SSB not apply to anything else. like mesh or prims. maybe one day. but not in this SSB coming  

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

Yep, had reread it. One should be more awake when reading stuff. :smileyfrustrated:

16 wrote: "linden at this time have been saying that SSB only works on avatar skins and clothing/tattoo layers that are grouped in a outfit under Outfits. the old way of baking clientside still works like it do now as well. like if you put each layer on direct from inventory"

Seriously, who clicks an outfit from the inventory together and then doesn't save it into the outfit folder (V1-style) or appearance dialogue (V3 viewer.)

Ok, no prims or mesh, but then SSB provides atleast the chance to prevent embarrassing moments due to bake fail.

 

[161488303349]

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Jadeclaw Denfu wrote:

 but then SSB provides atleast the chance to prevent embarrassing moments due to bake fail.

 

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yes seems like we either going to be properly layer clothed or total gray and not any in any state of half or full undress if we wear a outfit. that be good

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just mention/tack on here

some people who been moaning a bit up to now about why linden doing SSB instead of doing something else to fix the lag not get it fully yet

like the main tech benefit of SSB is to take some load/lag off the sim server by reduce the number of texture fetches and broadcasts needed by each avatar on the sim

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ps

about the inventory wearing. is how/why RLV can still work. like the layers just put in RLV folders same as before. not saved as Outfits

 

 

[Teagan Tobias]

Jadeclaw wrote...

Seriously, who clicks an outfit from the inventory together and then doesn't save it into the outfit folder

 

Well I for one don't. If I saved every outfit I put on I would never find anything in that mess. I change a lot and I do it mostly from my inventory. I do save outfits but a lot of them are saved in a folder along with a photo so I can find what I am looking for, one click on the folder and its a new me.

I have about a dozen outfits saved in the outfit folder but the links keep getting broken so I don't use it that much.

 

[Coby Foden]

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

 

I have about a dozen outfits saved in the outfit folder but the links keep getting broken so I don't use it that much.

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One sure way to get links broken in the outfit folder is to rez a no-copy item on ground, edit it, take it back into inventory. Bang - broken link.  The outfit folder has no more any idea that it is the same object.

However one can rename the original object, move it to another folder and still the outfit folder keeps track of it. No broken link.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

wait. 

So you are saying that SSB will bake only outfits that you created a folder for in the "my outfits folder" ?

so what will happen with the layer you will wear directly from their original folders ?

will we be forced to create a folder in our "my outfift" folder everytime we change anything on our avi ? Omg... it will be a full time job and my inventory will even longer...

weird...

So if pp wear layer normally from their original folders, will texture be baked by the sim servers still ? 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I am very much looking forward to the SSB. This should mean that lower end graphics cards and computers will work much better for SL, or so i have been told. That mean people like Czari and my wife can use the latest viewers and not crash constantly from the card memory maxing out.

From what the Firestorm team said in their group yesterday they could have a viewer out as soon as 2 days after roll out. That makes me giddier than a school girl on her first date.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

wait. 

So you are saying that SSB will bake only outfits that you created a folder for in the "my outfits folder" ?

so what will happen with the layer you will wear directly from their original folders ?

will we be forced to create a folder in our "my outfift" folder everytime we change anything on our avi ? Omg... it will be a full time job and my inventory will even longer...

weird...

So if pp wear layer normally from their original folders, will texture be baked by the sim servers still ? 

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Layers from the original outfits work just fine - I just tested it with the project viewer. I think what 16 was referring to is the fact that the baking server uses the "CURRENT Outfit" folder in your inventory which was added in the original Viewer 2 but is now used by all TPV's that are currently being maintained. The "My Outfits" folders aren't necessary.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

ah ok thanks for your answer.

i feel less worry now, having to create an outfit in the "my outfit" folder everytime i was changing a nightmarre looked like a nightmarre to me lol

Yes i understand the "current outfit" folder that you are refering to. it makes senses indeed

[Czari Zenovka]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Attica Bekkers wrote:

I think of all sl users as niche. Yes th eniche has different sectons within it, but SL itself occupies a niche market and our opinions, all of us, matter. .

oFor thoseof us who like the ll viewer and were not  willing  r able to move on, tpvs have kept us in SL. TPVs saved Sl. FOr good or ill SL would of lost me years ago without them. Like many I stuck with offical viewer one for as long as i could have, and changed when it was that or leave.

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SL wouldn't have been worse off for not having TPVs so I can't imagine where you got the idea that TPVs saved SL. Perhaps some TPVs made SL more interesting for some people; e.g. restrained life types might have caused some people to stay in SL, but TPVs definitely did not save SL.

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Earlier this year I watched a video interview with one of the Phoenix/Firestorm Devs and Oz Linden.  Stats were shown that, at that time, the #1 & #2 viewers were Phoenix and Firestorm with the official LL viewer in a distant 3rd.  I haven't used the LL viewer since sometime in 2007 when I was introduced to the Nicholaz viewer.  TPVs may not have saved SL, but I do think they kept a lot of people in SL who would have left if the LL viewer was the only game in town.

ETA: I have never used the RLV features so this answer has nothing to do with a particular "niche."

[Czari Zenovka]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

That mean people like Czari and my wife can use the latest viewers and not crash constantly from the card memory maxing out.

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*Starts pulling my hair out*

I have been saying this until my face is blue but I will say it again:

The reason I cannot use the latest viewers on my PC is NOT due to crashing (I haven't crashed in ages) nor card memory, etc., etc.  I cannot use the newer viewers because my PC's MB/CPU/whatever does not have SEE2.  Apparently the last MB/CPU I put in my box was just before this became the norm.  Additionally, I cannot simply add a new MB/CPU because my graphics card is now not compatible with new MBs.  I can't replace the new MB/CPU & graphics card because my current RAM is not compatible with them, etc., etc. thus the need for a new PC.

People have told me for months - try Cool Viewer...it's made for lower end PC's.  On Cool Viewer's website it states: "As for the hardware, the Cool VL Viewer uses SSE2 (because the Mesh code requires it); it won't work on CPUs without SSE2 (Pentium 3 or Athlon XP, for example)."

I do appreciate your thinking of me in this situation, Drake, but again, this has no bearing on my current PC at all. 

At this point I really don't care what LL does....for a multitude of reasons, some RL, SL may be put on the back burner for me as I think I have hit a "wall" and need a break from it - with or without a new PC.

[Qie Niangao]

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Earlier this year I watched a video interview with one of the Phoenix/Firestorm Devs and Oz Linden.  Stats were shown that, at that time, the #1 & #2 viewers were Phoenix and Firestorm with the official LL viewer in a distant 3rd. ...

Although Firestorm's crash rate still ranks better than the official viewers as we can see in the TPV directory, I didn't know that the Lab allowed the actual crash rate statistics to be public outside the TPV developers.

Anyway, what I find interesting about this is that because TPVs exist, the Linden viewer developers are under less pressure to build a super-stable viewer: they can let the TPV devs fix some of the bugs, and instead focus on being a kind of "reference implementation" for new features or architectural changes. They have to make it good enough to be usable, but it doesn't have to be the best viewer in town; while the TPVs are fixing the rough edges of the last release, LL devs can be working on the Next Big Thing.

To me, that seems a good use of resources, but one could use it to make the case that TPVs, by existing, cause LL's viewer to be less stable.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

To me, that seems a good use of resources, but one could use it to make the case that TPVs, by existing, cause LL's viewer to be less stable.

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I don't see that as the fault of TPVs but laziness on the side of LL devs - which doesn't surprise me at all.

At any rate - I'm not in a good place RL due to health reasons and I should know better to even read the forums.  (This is not directed at you, Qie )

[Perrie Juran]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Qie Niangao wrote:

To me, that seems a good use of resources, but one could use it to make the case that TPVs, by existing, cause LL's viewer to be less stable.

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I don't see that as the fault of TPVs but laziness on the side of LL devs - which doesn't surprise me at all.

At any rate - I'm not in a good place RL due to health reasons and I should know better to even read the forums.  (This is not directed at you, Qie

)

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I'm going to agree with you on the laziness.  How long have people complained about the camera control not being resizeable in the Official Viewer?  Just this one thing!  How do the Lindens themselves stand it when they log in?  Or are they all using TPV's also?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

i am so sorry.. it was very early when i posted and i had not yet had my caffeine.

I wish i could send you my spare PC. i really do.

[Attica Bekkers]

I think most lindens are only allowed to use official viewers. In the days before TPVS they didnt fix the viewers  fast. It may be overly romantic to think that without help the lab would be magically empowered to cure viewer woes. I think if no tpvs existed maybe we would have a viewer one like interface by now, but to be brutally honest the more likely scenario is that a third of folk would have left. The lab has been brutally clear for years now that  they really do not care at all about legacy ui users even a little bit.

I am sorry about the old computer thing, mine is old but  fortunately is SSE2. Im really quite interested in the baking. I dont use RLV though I have often thought about getting an inworld wardrobe device,  It would be really great if it is step foward, but I remember I tried to come to SL at  the very beginning and my then computer wasnt powerful enough. Im confused.  Is this a step towards being less accessable, or more?

[161488303349]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

wait. 

So you are saying that SSB will bake only outfits that you created a folder for in the "my outfits folder" ?

so what will happen with the layer you will wear directly from their original folders ?

will we be forced to create a folder in our "my outfift" folder everytime we change anything on our avi ? Omg... it will be a full time job and my inventory will even longer...

weird...

So if pp wear layer normally from their original folders, will texture be baked by the sim servers still ? 

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Layers from the original outfits work just fine - I just tested it with the project viewer. I think what 16 was referring to is the fact that the baking server uses the "CURRENT Outfit" folder in your inventory which was added in the original Viewer 2 but is now used by all TPV's that are currently being maintained. The "My Outfits" folders aren't necessary.

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am glad you write this bc it actual make it more clear for me as well. how it works exactly. bc I not test it myself yet. just been going off what I been able to read about it so far

so thanks (:

 

[161488303349]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Earlier this year I watched a video interview with one of the Phoenix/Firestorm Devs and Oz Linden.  Stats were shown that, at that time, the #1 & #2 viewers were Phoenix and Firestorm with the official LL viewer in a distant 3rd. ...

Although Firestorm's crash rate still

ranks

better than the official viewers as we can see in the

TPV directory

, I didn't know that the Lab allowed the actual crash

rate

statistics to be public outside the TPV developers.

 

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I think that linden official viewer ranks a distance third in crashing bc is my fault. like I manage to crash myself every time i login and autosend a crash report everytime. i got a nearly 100% perfect crash record

am pretty sure if i switch to a TPV fulltime then they will go wizzing down the list and out the bottom (:

 

[Dillon Levenque]

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16 wrote:

I think that linden official viewer ranks a distance third in crashing bc is my fault. like I manage to crash myself every time i login and autosend a crash report everytime. i got a nearly 100% perfect crash record

am pretty sure if i switch to a TPV fulltime then they will go wizzing down the list and out the bottom (:

 

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The viewer's got nothing to do with it. You go too fast. I mean, come on: we've all seen the pictures. Go that fast you are bound to crash sooner if not a lot sooner.

Do you really send crash reports? I've never done that. Same with Windows. I always click the 'Don't Send' box after I've had to shut something down and Microsoft gets all customer satisfaction oriented and wants to know why. The only exception was something that shut down in the same place twice for no good reason that I could see; that time I clicked 'Send' and in fact got information that helped.

I would only send a crash report in SL under the same circumstances. That is, if I was doing something that would normally be expected to work but crashed trying at least twice. Does that make me part of the problem? Should we report every crash?

[Czari Zenovka]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

i am so sorry.. it was very early when i posted and i had not yet had my caffeine.

I wish i could send you my spare PC. i really do.

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No need to apologize, Drake.  You were thinking of me and I really do appreciate that. *Hug*  I was basically ranting in general because I've explained the SEE2 thing to a lot of people this year; it really was not directed at you specifically but I did post it as a response to you and I apologize for that. 

I understand about caffeine! 

I actually owe you several apologies in general.

[161488303349]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

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16 wrote:

I think that linden official viewer ranks a distance third in crashing bc is my fault. like I manage to crash myself every time i login and autosend a crash report everytime. i got a nearly 100% perfect crash record

am pretty sure if i switch to a TPV fulltime then they will go wizzing down the list and out the bottom (:

 

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The viewer's got nothing to do with it. You go too fast. I mean, come on: we've all seen the pictures. Go that fast you are bound to crash sooner if not a lot sooner.

Do you really send crash reports?

Should we report every crash?

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yes true lol about go to fast on SL vehicles. i quite often do just bc really. like how far/fast can i go/get before i crash

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about the crash reports more

when i was try to get shadows to work on my laptop. i try this. crash. try that crash. try it again to see. crash. change to this. crash. change to that. crash. do again. crash. and crash and crash more

lol. must have drive some poor linden person bananas. fill up their box with like dozens and dozens of crash reports. was same with some mesh/textures that used to crash my video card. like on some sims. i go there and crash. so i just keep going there. stay on that sim. change this settings. crash. change that settings. crash. and on and on and on (:

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is same Microsoft and other stuff i get/use. just turn it all on. automagic feedbacks and crash reports

i just go on the idea that if they gunna crash me with their buggy programs then i am complain by fill up their boxes until they fix it (:

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i not say for other people to do this. is up to each of us. but i not care personally really. like Microsoft already know everything about me anyways. like i not have to worry about them spying on me. lol. they got a whole operating system already doing that. so a feedback or crash report not going to make much difference (:

 

same linden as far as SL goes. like they can find out easy all about me if they could be bothered

but they not bother about me. like not personally. i am just not important enough for even the most curious person who might be tempted. not that they are i don't think. bc can say that M Linden did that part right. like clamp down on nosey parkering within the linden company. well seems like anyways

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am pretty sure that linden happy to get my crash reports and feedbacks tho i think. even i am being a bit cheeky here to them

and thats all they ever really want of me really. the techies. like the crash reports. so can get the infos they actual need without the commentary and the raging

so i am happy to do that. if it not actual help them then one day they will remove logging and crash reports out the viewer

until then am happy to go: Hi (: is me agaaaain. crash agaaaain. oh! well nvm. i going to try again with some other settings and see what happens

and again and again and again. like over and over and over and over. until they go nuuuuuuuuuuu!!!! mooooarrrrr !!!!

and fix it

(: