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Perrie Juran

The Impact Of Server Side Baking

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I know that this can be a hot button topic, but with Server Side Baking (and some other changes) coming, it is going to have a big impact on many of us.  Server side baking requires a lot of code changes, code changes that all the TPV's need to deal with.  And because the majority of users in SL use TPV's, it is going to have a big impact on a lot of people.

Reading various blogs it looks like it could be a rough road ahead.  I am hoping not but we should be prepared. 

For any one who has not been staying abreast of all this I am posting links to more information and discussion of the issues ahead.  These links focus on Firestorm but a lot of the information will have varying levels of impact on all the TPV's.

 

http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/12/15/avatar-baking-and-the-clock-has-started/

http://blog.nalates.net/2013/02/13/firestorm-qa-meeting-summary/

http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/firestorm-where-next-and-early-looks/

 

 

 

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I use Nirans viewer but I don't use RLV. But on Nirans web-page I found this about Server Side Baking and RLVa...

it breaks RLVa literally everywhere where it could get broken

This comment was from the middle of January (18th) with Nirans 2.0.7 release and I don't know if anything has changed from then but just thought I would add what I have seen. Nirans viewer is now on release 2.0.8.

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My only fear is that my piece of junk computer will be affected negatively. I have been told that if anything it will actually help me but I guess we'll just have to see.

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Darren Scorpio wrote:

My only fear is that my piece of junk computer will be affected negatively. I have been told that if anything it will actually help me but I guess we'll just have to see.

yes that the theory. will have to see how it works out in practice like you say

if it only ever fixes the blurry then I be happy about that

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

I use Nirans viewer but I don't use RLV. But on Nirans web-page I found this about Server Side Baking and RLVa...

it breaks RLVa literally everywhere where it could get broken

This comment was from the middle of January (18th) with Nirans 2.0.7 release and I don't know if anything has changed from then but just thought I would add what I have seen. Nirans viewer is now on release 2.0.8.

It is going to be interesting to see how RLV plays out.  I found Nirans quote:

Server Side Baking:

 

"Sorry Oz , i will not implement it , it breaks RLVa literally everywhere where it could get broken , until Kitty hasnt updated RLVa to work with Server Side Baking , im not gonna implement it. RLVa is important for me and maybe alot of other people , you should really think of incorperating it into the Official Viewer so everyone can have it , its such a nice tool that can be used for so many great things and even inworld games!... which i have been playing the last few days..."

http://niranv-sl.blogspot.com/2013/01/release-207.html

A question I would have here is if Niran is omly refering to his Viewer because Henri Beauchamp states:

 

"I’m quite a bit surprised by the argument following which RLVa would be an issue with the server side baking code !… While it is true that you must make sure that RestrainedLove restrictions are not in force when removing or wearing clothing items, it is trivial to implement the corresponding checking functions as callbacks pointers used by the llappearance library and initialized by the RestrainedLove core; this is how the Cool VL Viewer has been doing it for weeks in its server-side baking enabled branch.

As for stability, the current sunshine-external code (with this week’s latest commits) has been largely improved and is proving quite stable (currently testing Cool VL Viewer v1.26.7.11 that is based on it and will be released today or tomorrow). As a TPV developer, I’m ready for the roll-out of the server side baking code on the main grid."

http://blog.nalates.net/2013/02/13/firestorm-qa-meeting-summary/

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To put in very simple terms
If ten percent of the customers requested pumpkin soup years after it was taken of the menu most  eateries would restore pumpkin soup to the menu. Especially if some enquired from the door then left becuase it wasnt there. Heck most restarants would do it for two percent.

Pumpkin soup is still off the menu at SL, and for a long time a third of customers were requesting it.

We have no chance of this not happening.

Until now a large percentage of customers who would simply leave if not for the pumpkin soup have been allowed to order pumpkin soup from outside and have populated the place and had the restof their vittals from the eatery. If viewer one "feel" clients with mesh interfaces go so do they.

Its really simple.

 

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Well to me seeing as the only good viewer for me is Phoenix, I will be effectively out of SL. My old computer can't handle Firestorm, and the SL viewer is not a option.

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Attica Bekkers wrote:

I think this potential breaking is an example of classic ways not to handle a niche customer base. 

A classic way it may be, but pandering to "niche customer bases" isn't usually the best way forward. The thing about niche customer bases is that the vast majority of customers don't care if the niche people are satisfied or not.

Look at this whole thing another way. Once upon a time, there was only the LL viewer, which didn't contain anything for niche customers. Then LL released the viewer code and some people modified it to add features. Everyone was content with that, weren't they? Now what's going to happen is that LL will release viewer code that breaks some of the modifications, so we'll have the latest clean LL viewer code, and those people who made modifications will have to do it all again if they want to have their additions. That seems perfectly reasonable. There's nothing wrong with it. They can do it again. There's no reason for LL to ensure that other people's modifications are continually supported.

If serverside baking is generally beneficial then it's right that LL implements it, and it will be up to people who modify the code to do it all again - just like they did before. Perfect.

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I think everyone is going to be in for a rough ride the next few months, even those that use the official LL viewer.  The code, that runs the official viewer, that  LL gave to the TPV has lots of bugs in it. Then to add to it all they will also be introducing the CHUI and Materials projects into the mainstream this spring.  It well may be summer before the ride evens out again.

They should have distributed crash helmets as the Valentine gift.

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I think of all sl users as niche. Yes th eniche has different sectons within it, but SL itself occupies a niche market and our opinions, all of us, matter. .

oFor thoseof us who like the ll viewer and were not  willing  r able to move on, tpvs have kept us in SL. TPVs saved Sl. FOr good or ill SL would of lost me years ago without them. Like many I stuck with offical viewer one for as long as i could have, and changed when it was that or leave.

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Attica Bekkers wrote:

I think of all sl users as niche. Yes th eniche has different sectons within it, but SL itself occupies a niche market and our opinions, all of us, matter. .

oFor thoseof us who like the ll viewer and were not  willing  r able to move on, tpvs have kept us in SL. TPVs saved Sl. FOr good or ill SL would of lost me years ago without them. Like many I stuck with offical viewer one for as long as i could have, and changed when it was that or leave.

SL wouldn't have been worse off for not having TPVs so I can't imagine where you got the idea that TPVs saved SL. Perhaps some TPVs made SL more interesting for some people; e.g. restrained life types might have caused some people to stay in SL, but TPVs definitely did not save SL.

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@ Phil: I must agree with Attica. SL is a niche product. LL's best efforts to make it more mainstream won't help. You need to be a certain kind of folk to be interested in building and populating a virtual world. And if it wasn't for all the TPVs SL wouldn't have half their customers these days. Most of us would've left in 08 already, leaving behind a handful freaks satisfied with the very very limited functionality and borked GUI of the LL viewer. But those are a niche in the niche, and indeed the wrong niche. Since those users don't care much about the development of SL, they are mostly the inactive, clueless type. As soon as you start building, photographing, moving vehicles, role playing you want better tools.

 

Ugh, what was the topic again? Oh yes, baking. I love baking. :smileytongue:

bake.jpg

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Yes, I'd misunderstood what Attica meant by "niches". I thought s/he was refering to niches within SL. Nevertheless, TPVs in no way saved SL - not in the slightest. Anyone who imagines differently should explain why they think that TPVs saved SL.

SL went along nicely without TPVs. People weren't leaving in droves. The TPVs came along and people did not join in droves because of them. If TPVs suddenly disappear, a few will leave, yes - those who enjoy restrained life stuff, for instance, but they are only a tiny minority, and I'd guess that only some of them would leave. The vast majority of users aren't into anything that only TPVs provide, so the disappearance of TPVs wouldn't affect SL badly at all. There would be a large amount of complaining, of course, but only because people like the viewers they use and not because the lack of TPVs kills SL for them. It's nonsense to think that TPVs are so important to SL that, without then, SL couldn't continue more or less as it is now. Utter nonsense.

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I am of the opinion that when Viewer 2 came out, had there not been TPV to use, some percentage of SL users would have moved to open grid. That influx would have boosted open grid numbers and spurred on development of open grid and could have been bad for LL. The TPV, I think, at least to a small degree saved LL and SL from becoming just part of the herd rather than the leading player. But this is only my opinion.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I think perhaps you should read Henri's comment again. He's basically saying that Niran is full of beans.

What puzzles me is how Henri could have tested to see if RLV worked if scripts were not enabled on test Grid.

Did they finally get enabled?  The last I had read was the TPV's requested this. 

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Oh, I don't know about that, specifically. Some folks may have left SL, but OpenSim was in a pretty sorry state back then (some would argue that it still is), and I doubt many folks who'd leave SL over a mere crippled viewer would suffer vintage OpenSim long enough for it to improve. I think they'd soon enough just disappear.

It may have been better if some folks had left because of Viewer 2, to better focus LL's attention. The existence of TPVs gave LL the cushion to keep living in denial about just how flawed the Viewer 2 design really was.  They stubbornly stood behind even the dopiest of its misfeatures long after we'd all explained why they were broken. Even now with the CHUI project they're still retrofitting Viewer 1 functionality into Viewer 3.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Oh, I don't know about
that
, specifically. Some folks may have left SL, but OpenSim was in a pretty sorry state back then (some would argue that it still is), and I doubt many folks who'd leave SL over a mere crippled viewer would suffer vintage OpenSim long enough for it to improve. I think they'd soon enough just disappear.

It may have been better if some folks
had
left because of Viewer 2, to better focus LL's attention. The existence of TPVs gave LL the cushion to keep living in denial about just how flawed the Viewer 2 design really was.  They stubbornly stood behind even the dopiest of its misfeatures 
long
after we'd all explained why they were broken. Even now with the CHUI project they're still retrofitting Viewer 1 functionality into Viewer 3.

I think historically there have only been a couple of issues that actually got LL to open their eyes for a minute.

If we didn't have the TPV's when V2 was released it might have actually given Open SIM a fighting chance to really become something.  More users there would have meant more people developing content there and greater reason for people to develop content.

TPV's are free labor to LL and as much as Oz may act like LL is playing nice nice, their existence is being exploited by the Lab. 

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Teagan Tobias wrote:

I am of the opinion that when Viewer 2 came out, had there not been TPV to use, some percentage of SL users would have moved to open grid. That influx would have 
boosted
open grid numbers and spurred on development of open grid and could have been bad for LL. The TPV, I think, at least to a small degree saved LL and SL from becoming just part of the herd rather than the leading player. But this is only my opinion.

I'd forgotten about LL's V2 period and I grant you that TPVs probably did make a difference at that time, but nowhere near the extent of saving SL. SL would have continued very well without TPVs at that time. As Qie said, it would probably have been better if TPVs didn't exist at the time, so that a noticeable number of people might have left and LL realised the folly of the V2 much more quickly.

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

I think perhaps you should read Henri's comment again. He's basically saying that Niran is full of beans.

What puzzles me is how Henri could have tested to see if RLV worked if scripts were not enabled on test Grid.

Did they finally get enabled?  The last I had read was the TPV's requested this. 

Scripts are now enabled on some test regions, since one or two days...

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Ansariel Hiller wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

I think perhaps you should read Henri's comment again. He's basically saying that Niran is full of beans.

What puzzles me is how Henri could have tested to see if RLV worked if scripts were not enabled on test Grid.

Did they finally get enabled?  The last I had read was the TPV's requested this. 

Scripts are now enabled on some test regions, since one or two days...

Henri's comment was posted on the 15th (yesterday) so then it is possible he has tested it.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

.

They should have distributed crash helmets as the Valentine gift.

/me runs off to create a line of helmets on the Marketplace for $L10.  I will be teh rich!

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All in all, I think that the more "server side" ll goes, the better. It's been pointed out by someone on this thread that the tpv's can simply do what they've already done to create the variety of features that people have become accustomed to.

The reason why I want to see SL go as much server-side as possible is because there is an unprecedented variety of devices that people use to see what SL has to offer.

there is Windows 8, 7, vista, and xp all on sl. then there are all of the various linux distros. Then there's Mac, and if you include Lumiya, there's android.

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