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Gadget Portal

AR when mesh isn't seen?

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Marianne Little wrote:

I agree that viewers that can't see mesh should not be able to log in. 

I completely disagree. There's no reason someone should be prevented from using Second Life just because they can't 'access' everything there is to see. I went quite a while on an old version of Phoenix that couldn't see mesh simply because I did not want to interrupt my already scarce time inworld learning my way around a new viewer. Others do that because they haven't upgraded their computers.

It's quite possible to have a pleasant Second Life without being able to see mesh. It's a lot better if you can, of course.

The scenario Gadget described should not have happened, but unfortunately some people are jerks and sometimes those people wind up in charge of clubs. I suspect that if that person upgrades to a mesh-capable viewer/PC that person will still be a jerk.

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I don't know if I would go as far as saying too poor, but people have their own priorities and just because upgrading a computer to run sl isn't one of them how can any of use judge? I understand your points and I am not saying they have no validation, but people should be able to enjoy sl no matter what their situation. Too many people are ban happy as it is and that's a problem I feel before finding the problems.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Oh, I'm positive I don't know the full story.

 

The last question I asked is still valid regardless.

Getting back to the original question, there has to be more going on with this.

I went through a long period of time where for some unsolved quirk I could not use any mesh enabled viewer with out SL dropping to a crawl.  My frame rate would collapse 75 to 80%.  My problem vaporized when I finally switched from XP to Win7.  (I refuse to call it an upgrade....it was a switch.  Though actually now I get higher frame rates than I did pre-mesh).

That said, I knew the problem was on my end.  Any one who can't see Mesh knows this.  What you see are boxes and doughnuts and you know the person is wearing Mesh. 

My only other guess in this is that the person who did the AR'ing has a burr up their arse about not being able to see mesh and just goes AR happy in an attempt to 'blame' LL for the problem.

In one sense yes LL created a problem for people with low end computers by adding Mesh.  But I know things have to move forward.  SL has raised the minimum requirements.  I remember when I bought Morrowind GOTY edition for my daughter, even though her computer met minimum specs, it would not run.  I didn't blame them though they did allow me to return the game and obtain a refund.

 

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Edit: Aside from the first version of mesh enabled veiwers, before the bugs were worked out, I've never had a problem seeing mesh, sculpted, or prim attachments on people, no matter how crowded a venue. Avatar textures have gone hours without loading on full sims, but I never had trouble with their attachments.

Really? I wonder WTF I'm doing wrong. I see attachments fine, usually, for the first dozen or so teleports or sim crossings, and then stuff starts to fail. It usually begins with hunks of my own hair that fail to rez. A couple more sim crossings and all my hair is gone, often followed by my mesh feet, then pretty much any prim attachments. It's been doing this for a long time... since before there even was mesh, I think.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

If the sim was a private estate the owner can ban them for any reason or no reason at all.  A landowner can establish rules for their own land that are more restrictive than the rules for the particular rating of the sim.  Many places prohibit any nudity and it is the responsibility to the person wearing mesh or sculpts to use alpha layers or underwear to ensure they are never showing naughty bits when they go there..

yes, you can ban. But an AR against someone for doing something in an M sim that you as a sim owner don't like yet is not a TOS voilation isn't going anywhere, and public nudity is NOT a TOS violation in M sims (neither full nor partial nudity).

So there has to be more to this, much more.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

Marianne Little wrote:

I agree that viewers that can't see mesh should not be able to log in. 

I completely disagree. There's no reason someone should be
prevented
from using Second Life just because they can't 'access' everything there is to see. I went quite a while on an old version of Phoenix that couldn't see mesh simply because I did not want to interrupt my already scarce time inworld learning my way around a new viewer. Others do that because they haven't upgraded their computers.


There are very good reasons, and people screaming bloody murder and banning or filing ARs against others for being naked when they aren't is just a minor one among them.

Viewers that are so old they can't handle mesh are requiring LL to spend a lot of money and other resources (including CPU power on the servers) to maintain backwards compatibility with the 10 year old codebase those dinosaurs use. Remove all that code and the grid becomes faster, more stable, and the time and money saved can be put to good use to provide new functionality for everyone rather than keeping things somewhat running while held together with rubber bands and strips of 3M tape for the minority who're too lazy to get used to the user interface V2 introduced now 5? years ago (which is the real reason those people refuse to use modern viewers).

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Don't get hung up on the details of my story. I don't even have all the details. The discussion has more to do with people that can't see mesh, and whether they should be able to effect the experience of everyone else.

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Gadget Portal wrote: "I have no problem with people that use old or underpowered computers. My issue is, and always has
been, with people that use these computers and complain about updates or hinder the experience of people around them."

Well, they will be forced to update/upgrade - When Server Side Baking goes live. Or they will see themselves and everyone
else as a grey martian. They won't like it. And then the problem of security holes. Or the inability to calculate Land Impact
correctly. Plus a host of other problems old viewers have.

Old unsupported viewers will break more and more in the near future as additional changes are announced/forthcoming.
It is helpful to look into Inara Pey's blog from time to time. ( http://modemworld.wordpress.com/ )
And the SL-blog as well.

Regarding updates: Unless it is an old Celeron or Atom-netbook, Singularity is always worth a try. 

 

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Don't get hung up on the details of my story. I don't even have all the details. The discussion has more to do with people that can't see mesh, and whether they should be able to effect the experience of everyone else.

true, but it's about time the misconception that nudity in M rated sims is a TOS violation were well and truly put to rest. As a nudist (and there are many of us, either occasional or fulltime, partial or full nude) we get a lot of grief over it, threats of getting AR'd, etc. etc..

Many a sim owner puts in place restrictions that are completely unwarranted under the TOS not because they want to but because they don't want to have to deal with the flood of accusations and ARs about assumed TOS violations by people wanting to run other residents' lives for them and dictate to people what their morals should be (and there are other sim owners who really do think they have to ban nudists because allowing us would be in violation of the TOS and get their sim shut down, even on A rated land I've encountered that...).

 

 

But to answer you: no, people who can't see mesh (or more likely refuse to) have no place on the grid, they're causing problems for everyone else by soaking up server resources and making false ARs against those of us wearing mesh clothes or attachments (and in RP sims may be able to see through walls because those walls never render for them).

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Marianne Little wrote:

I agree that viewers that can't see mesh should not be able to log in. 

I don't think LL will ever do that. Missing a customer is more serious to them than a resident beeing banned from a sim. LL does not care about resident disputes at all.

It used to be standard procedure that any release more than 1 back was disabled from log in.

The tragedy of people too old in the mind to handle the change to v2 caused LLs to blink on that policy, and now we're stuck with foolishness like the claim in this thread - someone being AR'd for wearing clothes.

Its been years now - 1.5 for mesh, 4.5 for v2/3. Enough is enough. Especially when folks used to get weeks.


Gadget Portal wrote:

Syo said it better than me.

 

 

Edit: Aside from the first version of mesh enabled veiwers, before the bugs were worked out, I've never had a problem seeing mesh, sculpted, or prim attachments on people, no matter how crowded a venue. Avatar textures have gone hours without loading on full sims, but I never had trouble with their attachments.

Mesh is faster and less laggy. People who claim otherwise are full of it, and too stuck in the mud to look into what is really wrong with their settings.

BUT there is a bug in newer viewers that will cause some attachments to not render. But it seems to be self limiting. A person won't see their own attachments - until they click on them. But others will just fine. This too might be a setting that I and others just have to find... as its been in there for about 3 or 4 releases now which makes me think its not a common bug.

 

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Not every sim owner who has a M sim I don't dictate Morales because of allowing nudity or not. Not every moderate sim has to allow nudity lol it isn't even a morale issue. Stop and think of how your views on nudity are being the standard for a moderate sim. Not everyone thinks your way and its ok. People need to get over telling sim owners what to do and push their beliefs on someone else's dime. When you own a sim do as you will. Go to M Sims that allow nudity, please don't cluster everyone together and make your beliefs the standard. Some people want a bed with no sex poses in it (many requests for that believe it or not when doing g rentals) would I judge? No gave them a bed with PG poses. To me nudity is fine and natural but some Sims rated M are not that way, and it shouldn't be a problem. If people are just giving you grief because of their own issues and not a sim owner mute them you are doing g nothing wrong so who cares. Sorry typing from Phone can't see previous typos if any.

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jwenting wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

Marianne Little wrote:

I agree that viewers that can't see mesh should not be able to log in. 

I completely disagree. There's no reason someone should be
prevented
from using Second Life just because they can't 'access' everything there is to see. I went quite a while on an old version of Phoenix that couldn't see mesh simply because I did not want to interrupt my already scarce time inworld learning my way around a new viewer. Others do that because they haven't upgraded their computers.


There are very good reasons, and people screaming bloody murder and banning or filing ARs against others for being naked when they aren't is just a minor one among them.

Viewers that are so old they can't handle mesh are requiring LL to spend a lot of money and other resources (including CPU power on the servers) to maintain backwards compatibility with the 10 year old codebase those dinosaurs use. Remove all that code and the grid becomes faster, more stable, and the time and money saved can be put to good use to provide new functionality for everyone rather than keeping things somewhat running while held together with rubber bands and strips of 3M tape for the minority who're too lazy to get used to the user interface V2 introduced now 5? years ago (which is the real reason those people refuse to use modern viewers).

 

LL can decide what to support or not support. If they want to make changes that make old viewers almost useless they can. I certainly don't expect them to maintain a service for no reason other than to support someone who refuses to upgrade even when an upgrade is available for free (I'm speaking of viewers, not PC's). It's my understanding that server side baking is going to bust V1 viewers pretty soon anyway, in that to someone with those viewers everyone will appear unrezzed.

I'm getting a bit tired of people who use the word 'lazy' in talking about those who resist upgrades. I'm not lazy. I have limited inworld time and most often have more people to see and places to go than I have time for when I am inworld. Having to futz around trying to hold up my end of conversations while figuring out how to do stuff I already KNEW HOW TO DO is kind of a pain, to put it mildly. To be able to keep up with developments I've done so, but I resisted.

By the way, V2 was released I believe somewhere around the middle of 2009. And it sucked. Horribly.

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Here's why I act the way I do. A couple good reasons. I won't list the forum troll ones this time around.

 

There is no reason not to have a decent computer these days. For 300 USD, I could build you a computer that'll run SL decently on high settings. For 500, it could run ultra. PC manufacturers have driven their own prices down so much, you could spend 200 for the tower, put in a GPU yourself for 100 more, and still do well. Hell, the prices are so cheap, I'd build and mail you a computer from my spare parts, for free, that could run SL well- except the shipping cost is more than buying the computer new.*

 

Every week, I see complaints on the forum about updates and upgrades. If SL were optimized for those people as requested, we'd lose most of the features that make it interesting and make it look good. Which is the last thing I want.

 

*Edit: The US Post office has those pre-paid boxes. I'm not a charity, but if things are that bad, I'd be happy to spend some time and spend some money on some sort of "help me upgrade" exchange program for SL users in the US. There's a tech guy in my local paper that does something similar for non-commercial PC owners.

I dare say you have never lived paycheck to paycheck if you believe $300, even $100 isn't a hefty price for some people.

I can name you quite a few reasons why I can't, and won't, upgrade my machine anytime soon. These are personal reasons and like others, not ones I would normally share, but maybe you need an answer that's realistic to understand where I'm coming from.

Those reasons?...bills..and tons of them. Yep, I have them. We have medical bills out the wazoo in this family. A family that only consists of my disabled son and myself and has since the day he was born and his mother left him with me in the hospital room. His needs are a priority, not my electronic desires. He comes first, always has and always will. His bills already exceed my paychecks every month and have for a very, very long time. We don't do holiday celebrations, or extra expenses of any sort when we are struggling to cover basic needs. Life has always been that way for us. Someone who has never struggled to cover basic needs wouldn't understand however. Our internet, is free, because he is currently attending school online and an organization covers his internet. We don't have cable, we don't eat out, we don't have credit cards-because I wouldn't be able to pay them off. We live pretty simplistic in nature. I have not ended any month since at least 2 years ago with more than $5 in my wallet. Most months, not even that. I in fact had to leave my rl job in 2005 due to some issues he was going through. I managed making close to what I was making in rl, in sl, with at least just as much work every day but being at home so better able to care for him. From 2005 until early 2012, sl was my whole income. Because getting another job outside of sl was simply not possible. When it became possible again, and my rl bills became high enough to prevent my sl income from even covering 3/4 of them most months leaving us with shut off notices and the like, I changed that. I got another rl job that better matched my monthly spending on basic needs, closed my sl shop, and that's where I sit today. I'd get a second job in rl, or even would have continued my sl one as well, if it were possible, but it's not. I stretch myself thin as it is, and my son still needs me daily.

So yes, even $100 or $50 on something I don't absolutely positively NEED, is a huge expense, and one I cannot afford. You don't have to be in the same situation as others to understand WHY they just can't afford something. That money may be a drop in the bucket for you, but it is NOT a drop in the bucket for everyone. It surely isn't for us. It would do you well to employ a bit more empathy and understanding rather than holding onto a seemingly elitist attitude that places yourselve above those who may posess less than you. I would like to assume people aren't as elitist, and don't place themselves on those pedestals intentionally. In fact, I'll continue going on believing that, even if it is ignorant of me. Because it makes me feel much better than believing everyone who says such things like this, actually believes them. I prefer to think the best of people whenever possible. I prefer ot think of the good in humanity instead of seeing them for the words they utter.

So I'll go on believing that elitist attitude is merely for show, and not a credible descriptor for the one who decides to share it. It serves my rose colored glasses outlook on life much better.

All that said, I can see mesh, at least to some extent, but not very well a lot of times. When I do actually go into sl that is, which isn't nearly as often as it once was. Sl does run on my machine, but it most definitely can't run on high. I can't use all the gizmos, gadgets and settings others can use. But it serves my purpose when I need it to. I have no idea why people think my experience in sl is going to somehow ruin theirs and therefore I should not be allowed to login. How exactly does it harm you that I can't see your mesh sometimes? How is it hurting you? Are the lindens I pay you for items inworld, when I do have them to spend that is, not good enough because my system isn't as high end as yours? Really? Would you stop taking payment from customers simply based on that kind of "your life isn't as good as mine is" attitude? I highly doubt it. I don't know of any merchant in sl that would refuse service to someone based on that alone. So why would others give a rat's toe about it? Why do you care so very much about others being able to see you and your stuff perfectly? All those yous and whatnot are general of course and not geared to anyone in particular, but it is food for thought.

 

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Gadget Portal wrote:

Don't get hung up on the details of my story. I don't even have all the details. The discussion has more to do with people that can't see mesh, and whether they should be able to effect the experience of everyone else.

No they shouldn't, at least not to the extent that they prevent growth for everyone else. That doesn't however mean they also shouldn't be able to complain. We all complain about things all the time, every single one of us. Things we can change and, mostly, things we cannot. I don't think trying to shut people up and stop them from complaining is really an answer. Which is how the "if you can't see/do it, you shouldn't be here" responses usually sound. More of a "stfu you don't matter" kind of response. Even if that's not how they're meant, it is how they come across sometimes. Counter productive.

Who knows maybe someone out there can, or has, a way that can appease both sides. You just never know. Others can continue to grow and move forward, technologically that is. While those who can't move forward for whatever reason(no need to judge the reason of course) can still enjoy the product, in this case sl, the way they always have.

It is entirely possible for people to coexist in such a way. At least I believe it is. Even if I don't have the answer. I am willing to bet someone out there does. They just don't likely work for Linden Lab. Frankly the folks that do work at the lab aren't even all that great at making the current conditions as good as possible, much less moving forward. In that right, we all have room to complain, lol.

 

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jwenting wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

If the sim was a private estate the owner can ban them for any reason or no reason at all.  A landowner can establish rules for their own land that are more restrictive than the rules for the particular rating of the sim.  Many places prohibit any nudity and it is the responsibility to the person wearing mesh or sculpts to use alpha layers or underwear to ensure they are never showing naughty bits when they go there..

yes, you can ban. But an AR against someone for doing something in an M sim that you as a sim owner don't like yet is not a TOS voilation isn't going anywhere, and public nudity is NOT a TOS violation in M sims (neither full nor partial nudity).

So there has to be more to this, much more.


 

 

 

 

Yes that is exactly what I said if you had read my entire post. 

"If she was truly AR'd to LL and not a sim owner and was banned, I would bet you most anything that it wasn't the nudity that got her banned.  You aren't getting the whole story."

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There are a lot of reasons someone would ban nudity on their land that have nothing to do with complaints or morals.  If a sim owner feels nudity is not appropriate to their venue, which it isn't in a lot of places, it is their right to make rules against it.  They are not required to accommodate exhibitionists just because they have land on an M sim or even an A sim.

If you want to go around naked that is your business, until you go to someone else's land , then it is their business to decide if it is appropriate.  If the major of people that go there don't want to see nudity, then they are fools not to ban it and anyone that insists on coming there nude.  It is good business and has nothing to do with morals.  If you don't like the rules someone has established, just don't go there.  There are plenty of places in SL that allow nudity.  Your insistence that you should be allowed to go nude anyplace you want to is imposing your own morals on others too and you are as guilty as the people you complain about.

.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Or could there be avatar shapes so perfectly matched to their mesh attachments that they don't even need the alphas?


is this one

some mesh clothes designers getting really good now at fitting perfect to the Standard SIzes. the alpha layer hide is a klutz way. meaning is not ideal

many people would rather not have alphas bc it mess with your head a bit. like it appears that you have to cut off parts of your body to wear your clothes

in technical terms alpha is not a biggie. in headspace terms it can be. and is the second main reason (after having to change your shape) why women mostly are really keen to get the deformer

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Or could there be avatar shapes so perfectly matched to their mesh attachments that they don't even need the alphas?


Its often good to wear an alpha anyway if the item covers a joint - some animations in SL "break your bones" when they twist you, and that can create pop-through even on a perfect fit.

With mesh bikinis, there is often so little covered that the outfit never crosses a joint ( :D ), so this can be easier to fit into than a full dress suit - I wish I had that problem in RL. :P

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

There are a lot of reasons someone would ban nudity on their land that have nothing to do with complaints or morals.  If a sim owner feels nudity is not appropriate to their venue, which it isn't in a lot of places, it is their right to make rules against it.  They are not required to accommodate exhibitionists just because they have land on an M sim or even an A sim.

I have often been an SL nudist. But when not in the mood I can be seriously not in the mood. Nothing can be more jarring than sitting between a pair of friends who are nude and about 1.5 times taller than you, so that you feel like your head is being squished by mega-boobs...

Which for them was a casual afternoon tea and conversation, but for me was a "ok, what's my excuse going to be for needing to log out?"

So despite often being an SL nudist, I can understand this.

But I do think people who don't want any nudity around should stick to land where that is the TOS.

 

If you arrive on an A sim, you can -expect- that the default assumption is nude-ok. If you arrive on M, it could go either way. When in a nudist mood, I -will- tromp around on M land sans outfit. But quickly cover or leave if the local place feels otherwise.

If the local place feels otherwise on A land, I feel put out: they have that right, but they are rude to use it on A land.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Nothing can be more jarring than sitting between a pair of friends who are nude and about 1.5 times taller than you, so that you feel like your head is being squished by mega-boobs...
 

That sounds like the perfect way to die in my opinion. 

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Nothing can be more jarring than sitting between a pair of friends who are nude and about 1.5 times taller than you, so that you feel like your head is being squished by mega-boobs...
 

That sounds like the perfect way to die in my opinion. 

maybe not

http://www.nigeriadailynews.com/odd/59492-busty-woman-kills-her-boyfriend-with-her-breasts.html

 

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Thats not only a risk at nude beaches...I lately visited some places where "huge"  seemed to be a standartlevel for most people around. And with the spread of Lola's it will get worse and dangerous whereever one goes.

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