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Why is there not a permanent "Security" thread in SL yet?


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In the last few days my wifes account was somewhat compromised, needing to change all passwords for many accounts due to a breach in security of our  Landlord's web site,  (who's name I will not mention), Causing all people that have entered the site through SL, to have to change passwords in all acounts including Paypal etc etc !!!

We recieved a formal email from Linden Labs concerning this, but it was too late, Loss of tme & efforts to obliged us to close our sim to all except group members, which is stupid because our store is on the sim, never the less, not too many people and sales are down! All this because : other than issue trackers you have no idea about outside hacks to SL , all this due to the fact , surely , that Linden Labs does not wish to overly excite people into being more prepared for breaches such as this.

Not only that, just the fact that the breach was declared to the Lindens, by the landlord but , the landlord did not at any time forewarn any of their clients about this security breach ??? WTF

I mean if you have a hacked site is it not the responsability of the landlord to w<arn all clients, especially those who own homestead or full sims???

I mean 125 dollars a month & we don't get a warning ?

I therefore ask that Linden Labs put up a permanent Security status with updates so that "we" the people who make SL what it is, I mean financialy speaking, have the right to immediately protect ourselves from any hacks!

If you can now become a millionaire in RL due to your SL holdings then any hacker in his right mind is going to get as much info on clients as possible, IE: credit cards Paypal purchasing power etc etc etc, the list goes ON !!!

I have three of the most expensive security orbs on the market, & let me be honest , they just don't do it anymore!!!

SL has  now gone worldwide here, that means that hackers all over the place are looking to get info on the people who make SL run, That means YOU & ME folks, the people who spend Lindens here!

To all who want to be protected ? please respond here & PLEASE ask that there be a security center on SL that is worthy of what Second Life is today !

Omurtag Milev

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If you think that a Security Orb and sim access is going to protect you from hacking, I think you need to do some more research about protecting your assets on Second Life and on the internet in general. Other people can only do so much to help protect you, but part of the responsibiliy lies with yourself and being responsible with personal information.

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Omurtag Milev wrote:

In the last few days my wifes account was somewhat compromised, needing to change all passwords for many accounts due to a breach in security of our  Landlord's web site,  (who's name I will not mention), Causing all people that have entered the site through SL, to have to change passwords in all acounts including Paypal etc etc !!!

We recieved a formal email from Linden Labs concerning this, but it was too late, Loss of tme & efforts to obliged us to close our sim to all except group members, which is stupid because our store is on the sim, never the less, not too many people and sales are down! All this because : other than issue trackers you have no idea about outside hacks to SL , all this due to the fact , surely , that Linden Labs does not wish to overly excite people into being more prepared for breaches such as this.

Not only that, just the fact that the breach was declared to the Lindens, by the landlord but , the landlord did not at any time forewarn any of their clients about this security breach ??? WTF

I mean if you have a hacked site is it not the responsability of the landlord to w<arn all clients, especially those who own homestead or full sims???

I mean 125 dollars a month & we don't get a warning ?

I therefore ask that Linden Labs put up a permanent Security status with updates so that "we" the people who make SL what it is, I mean financialy speaking, have the right to immediately protect ourselves from any hacks!

If you can now become a millionaire in RL due to your SL holdings then any hacker in his right mind is going to get as much info on clients as possible, IE: credit cards Paypal purchasing power etc etc etc, the list goes ON !!!

I have three of the most expensive security orbs on the market, & let me be honest , they just don't do it anymore!!!

SL has  now gone worldwide here, that means that hackers all over the place are looking to get info on the people who make SL run, That means YOU & ME folks, the people who spend Lindens here!

To all who want to be protected ? please respond here & PLEASE ask that there be a security center on SL that is worthy of what Second Life is today !

Omurtag Milev

FIrst, why on earth do you have to change your passwords on all your accounts instead of just the one hacked?  If you  use the same password on them all then that's pretty dumb.  When you change them give each account a unique password so that you won't have to do this in the future.

Since you pay tier on a homestead it must be going to a third party since you can't own a homestead independently of a full sim. So I am somewhat confused.  Whose site was hacked?  Then landlords?  If so, why are you blaming LL for any of this?  LL has no control over this as apparently they were just passing along the warning..  The blame goes to the landlord for not having proper security and not notifying you DIRECTLY in what you consider a timely manner.  LL only rents server space to your private estate owner and what that owner does or does not do is completly independent of LL.

A security thread may or may not be a good idea.  Personally, if my account is hacked I'd rather get an immediate email about it than have to rely on checking a thread constantly to see what is going on.

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If you can't protect an SL account, you probably can't protect any other account including email, which then leads us to why your wifes account got compromised.....within SL there is only your own careless behavior that can set your account on risk.

Also its not hacking to get into an account. Hacking would mean to pick one specific account and get around its defensives and into the system. In 99% thats not what has happend.

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Have to echo a little here - the Lab is hardly responsible for securing a third parties web infrastructure. The fact they alerted you (rather than your 'landlord') should have you praising them - at least they did.

And what on this or any other planet do security orbs in-world have to do with basic internet common sense?

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Sorry I think you misunderstood my statement about the orbs, that was just meant to state that the security junk you buy on Marketplace just is not doing it for me, all these copybots, vandals & greifers do there thing anyway and if they get booted permanantly, they just invent another avatar because Linden can't control alternate avs anymore or bots for that matter, Sorry guy I owned one of the first Internet Cafes in Europe, and I know how to protect myself :) thanks anyways, I think you missed out on the meaning of my post, what I am getting at is that we need a "Security Status" just like grid status !!!

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Well, thats it get rihght down dirty about my wifes intelligence, Listen !!! It was no ones fault that someone got into the server which my wife visited, abnd got all the info on accounts that are owned by the landlord!!! nor was it her stupidity! it was a person with intention to steal info :) I will be seeing you when you are compromised also one day, then you will think back to today! What we needf is a Security status , I say , so that we can know ahead of time when to put in some exrtra protection! why are you all so huffy about this???? try to get into my comp I will blow yours up , is that what it is coming to, I think it is a lot better to work together to protect ourselves

 

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Can you tell me where in my message did you see me saying anything wrong about SL or lindens??? I was stating that the Landlord was at wrong with their clients for not warning us at all about their security breach & that I recieved only attention from the Linden Labs, whats wrong with all of you, am I speaking Chinese or what ,,,,,?

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I'm not sure how LL having a permanent security page would help in this case, as you point out, it's a third party site that may have had an issue, a rather large one in Second Life terms, but still a third party.

The copy of the email I saw had some decent advice, such as not using your SL password on other sites.

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You were blaming others (LL) for being somewhat responsible for the compromised account. Thats not the case and LL has nothing to do with all this. I just wonder how the account informations got on a third party server, so that another person could get them. Also cute that you assume I will get compromised too...just because it happend to your wife.


Also again...who do you blame and what have we or LL to do with that?

Also its pretty funny how you want to threaten me. "Blow up a computer"....are you new to the internet?

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Not sure what extra protection you can put in to prevent this other than following good personal security practices.

  • Always use a unique password for each account
  • Change your password frequently
  • Make your passwords both at least 8 characters long, both upper and lower case and a combination of alpha an numeric characters
  • Never store passwords, SSN, or other important personal information on your computer.  Write them down and store the page in a secure place where no one can access it easily, such as a safe or locked drawer
  • Never give out any information to any site unless you trust them completely and ONLY give the information that is absolutely necessary, even if they ask for more.
  • Check each account frequently for any suspicious activity
  • Use a strong firewall as well as an Antivirus and Malware detection software and keep them up to date.  The best way is to let them do an auto update.
  • Scan your computer frequently using your Antivirus and Malware detection software
  • Install any security patches issued by any of the companies whose software you use

 

 

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SL has  now gone worldwide here, that means that hackers all over the place ...

Huh? Was SL ever not worldwide? I mean it's a fricken MMPORG, it's supposed to be worldwide, it's the INTERNET!
And btw, what's the difference wether your acc is hacked by someone from your own country or from the other side of the globe? Same damage I guess.

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Omurtag Milev wrote:

 I think you missed out on the meaning of my post, what I am getting at is that we need a "Security Status" just like grid status !!!

what you asking is the linden have a forum/site where its customers must publicly report any security issues that happen on their own servers that may have an effect on the SL service

dunno if that ever going to happen

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like how do you implement it? how do you get people to report if they don't want/choose to? how much do they have to report? what constitutes a security issue? who do this apply to? like do it apply to all users or just landlords? and on and on

RL lawmakers don't know themselves what all these answers are. or even what all the questions are yet. even when it comes to operations like RL banks and defence installations and stuff. so am not sure linden is in any place to decide this matter or how it could/might work

+

at the moment the way it works is that the rule of the market applies. if your landlord/[provider does not provide you a satisfactory service then stop buying it. and if is any breach of any contract in place then can seek remedy thru the Courts. like small claims court or fullon court judicials if you want

 

 

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LL cannot control what third party sites do or do not report to their members. You, or your wife, being one of those members. When something bad happens, like in this case, the responsibility, as you clearly understand, sits with the owner of that site. The fact that the owner of that site, your landlord, did not inform you, speaks volumes about them. In fact, if I were you I would be beyond pissed that they did not inform you. I would be jumping for joy that LL did inform you. Because LL does not have to. And by all rights, they really shouldn't have. But they chose to do what most would like them to do, and informed you about something they knew. They informed you of an issue that had absolutely nothing at all to do with them. If you ask me, that's pretty awesome, and not very common either. But I am sure you understand that part.

I would be furious if I were you at your landlord. Not because their site was hacked, because it does happen despite some of the best measures being taken. So I would not necessarily blame them, not that you are of course, for being "hacked". But the responsibility they hold to you, a user of their site, is to inform IMMEDIATELY upon finding out something like this has happened. They did not. That is a huge red flag for me. Pissed doesn't begin to describe. I know others also affected by this same issue. They are seeking new sims as we speak and leaving this "landlord"-I use that term very loosely, regardless of the popularity of said person. Things like this affect more than just their own livelyhood so looking out for their own best interest, imo, also involves looking out for your-their customers'-best interests. But maybe I'm simply partial to people that give a rat's behind about others. Color me weird.

As for LL having a thread. I agree it would be nice, in theory, but only in theory. In practice, it would never work. The lab cannot possibly know when any and all sites, or programs, their customers use have been compromised. It's neither resonable, nor possible. I know why you're asking for it, and I understand your line of thinking, but I'm not sure you're thinking about the big picture. How would they know about every single third party site possibly even remotely affiliated with any and all second life resident(s) and/or company(ies)? How would they go about not only knowing about each and every site, but also the current status of each and every site? How do you propose they have a "status" thread when knowing the status of them all isn't even remotely possible? Do you know how many sites are even a tiny bit related to sl and it's residents as well as merchants, bloggers, companies, so on and so forth? Thousands upon thousands of sites exist. Having an updated "status" for each of them would be a full time job for a full time team. It would cost more money than it would be worth and in the end still no way to know for certain they've covered them all.

So yes, in theory having each and every site owner post a status would be great, but only in theory. Now if those who own sites would be willing to stand up and say "yo, folks, we got an issue here..here's what's up", when something bad happens...that would be a step in the right direction. But that responsibility would still sit with those site owners, not LL. LL can no more prevent those sites from having issues than you can, as a user.

Crap happens, sites get hacked, accounts get compromised. Sometimes it's because of ignorance-I use this term with it's true definition, not to put anyone down. Sometimes you believe you've taken all proper measures and it still happens. You hope nothing bad happens to you as a result, you learn, you change whatever you possibly can, and you move on. Sometimes you blame the one who owned the site, because sometimes it really was their fault. Sometimes, it's not. The only one there to blame is the one truly responsible for the act. Either way, in most instances, people come out no worse for the wear, thankfully. Which is likely what will happen to most affected here. Thankfully the worst most will have to go through is making sure they change their patterns, because many people do have patterns and don't realize it. Also being more aware of everything they do, at least for a little while anyway, until they get more comfy again. That's also what usually happens.

Of course security orbs and other such things are not a 100% solution. There is no 100% solution, unless you include staying off the internet completely. I don't think the security orbs comments really have anything at all to do with this, other than a side comment made. No one in sl can possibly make or create a product that is going to protect you 100%. Even a rl bank cannot offer you 100% security that your money will be safe with them. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different in a virtual world, with regards to their virtual goods, or money(or as some see it, their rl investments of rl money in virtual goods). It's just not possible. Things do happen.

Sl has always been worldwide. There is no difference in that from it's inception until now. Safe the fact that popularity grows, and decreases, as with anything. It's always been a worldwide virtual world. It's always been just as susceptible to issues like this as any other place, site, company, whatever term(s) you want to use. Sl has never been an exception to the standard rule of..."there will always be people who choose to do bad things, including compromising other people's property in whatever way they choose". No site, company, whatever.. is an exception to that rule.

Or maybe I'm just rambling and you really just wanted to vent. In which case, I understand, but I'd be giving that landlord of yours a piece of my mind, for certain. I know others have. They are very sore about this issue. I am helping someone move a few sims worth of rentals to a different company later tonight and well into the next couple of days, because of how angry they are at how this was handled. No one should have found out about it from LL before the landlord informed them. Not when the landlord knew about it before LL did. That is absolutely unacceptable in my book.

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Linden Lab is not responsible for any third party websites including paypal, or a LandSellers, you go to these sites at your own risk and enter your information at your own risk.

1. The best option I can think of is disable all browser add-on's including Flash, Java, and Restrict cookies to prevent virus/hijacking/password phishing.

2. Do not use the same password anywhere.

3. Do not give your Credit Card information to anyone, always use paypal, make sure of the policy with your issuing bank on unauthroized charges because the FBI will investigate, aka FDIC.

4. Do not authroize Automatic Payments/Billing Through PayPal, Manually login to pay it.

Never give out your RL Information, and know that by sending payment through paypal the person who gets the money will get your RL name, and possibly shipping information in which after they have that a hacker could possible go Doxing on the internet to phish your identity, have friends in with a company aka spies, or hack a computer to obtain your RL identity, and use it for who knows what. If you are paranoid and want to avoid this all together pay in L$ only, then they only get your avatar name.

Although I do agree that Linden Lab lacks security and needs to improve on it due my account that was hijacked which contained UpperCase, LowerCase, and ASCII symbols and was still hijacked password never used anywhere, bottom line is any user who even plays Second Life is not safe at all, and rumor has it that some TPV's excluding Malicious Viewers contain password loggers in the bianary files I think they call it, so using any TPV could cause your account to get ripped off.

LL does need to add the security so that all user logins from X IP Address require Email Confirmation similar to GuildWars 2 when signing in from a new IP address, give us the options to enhance our security besides a password that can be hijacked through TPV's, or take responsibility in at least giving users the option to have their inventory reverted/restored.

Had LL, have had this account security in place, and also alterted me like EVE Online Does when someone else logs into your account, my account would not have been ripped off from me, but their failure in security caused it.

I know my computer was clean too run three different scanners myself, so it only left one thing which I found suspecious in one of the TPV's I installed, and I quit using that viewer after I saw the rumors online about it and what happend, but either way if LL had of had this extra security I would have been protected, and I believe its something They really need to look into.

Although I know the group of people responsible for it, it does not seem that the FBI, or Police care that this group of griefers is not just CopyBot's but they are also Carders.

And honestly I believe I know the Land Companies you are talking about I have seen the large land barrons, and personally I can't stand to rent from them the reason I owned my own sim before I left SL for the main part. My reason was because to me all they were interested in was Money, and Profit, not keeping consumers happy, charging more for tier then what they were actually paying in tier and I mean a lot more, as well as not caring about CopyBot Users copying avatars on their regions. I know some people say its not their responsibility, however when I called it out to the people they said Let LL Deal with it not our problem. And the proof was provided its just pathetic some of the land companies in SL. I know this happend over 2 years ago, but its not something I will forget when a lot of merchants I know of were harmed by Griefers.

 

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First of all I want to Thank you all for your interest ! I have been a member of Second life for 5 years 4 months, I have never entered a forum in all those years, I tried to understand all of you and I welcome all your interests and your answers though not all were what I was expecting!

First of all , if any of you misunderstood my post I am sorry because I am an American citizen but I am living abroad for many years now and maybe I communicate differently in English than you do, so maybe I need to widen my horizons in this "dance of dialects".
First of all, I may sound old here, but I was sending emails on a the first macs at UCLA when emails were only being sent by the military and it took 24 hours to get from LA to NYC.

I built the first Cibercafés in the Canary Islands, Spain, and while regular home computers would take ten minutes to get to a page in any country, I was hooked up to the intercontinental ITT lines that went under the Atlantic and I had DSL in 1993, my pages took A second to show up. I paid heavyduty for that!

I had security knowledge while some of you were still looking down to earth from the Milky Way, please don't tell me about passwords!!!

I am not being huffy , I just have a hard time taking your critics while you know nothing about me ! which is the usual thing to do today, after all, seeing the "remarks" on some of the other posts!

I came to this Forum asking a simple task, for the first time in five years, because I thought that, SL has gotten so big, wether on third party servers or sites, I wanted to make a point of how the world is changing and times are tough and there are going to be more and more security breaches as time goes on, since SL is gone "INTERNATIONAL" ! (IE: look at all the languages ? Glad I speak at least 3 fluently) & Just because it's me & not you, today, tomorrow, when it happens to you, just for visiting a site, You will be screaming or asking that something be done before it's too late, & please don't say it will never happen !

All I asked is that, like Paypal, Visa , banks, etc, that there be a small, not giant, status on general security breaches as all other entities have, to protect, as well as possible your records, & that Landlords be responsable enough to tell all their customers about breaches! Is that too much to ask ??? I mean Second Life is getting huge & lots of money circulates every day, all over the world, not just in the states !

I never blamed SL for anything, maybe my wording was wrong in the excitement of posting for the first time in five years!

I did blame my Landlord, for never advising us at any time that there was a security breach and I do appreciate greatly, the fact that Linden Labs sent me a mail, though I have very strong passwords for all my accounts and those of my wifes, I feel you probably thought I was some kid just joining the group.  OF COURSE IT IS STUPID TO USE THE SAME PASS FOR ALL YOUR ACCOUNTS !!! Did anyone ask me if I was that stupid ? NO you just all assumed I was!

We change passwords often, but my wife visited our landlords site that asked her to place her password to be able to purchase items that are specificaly related to this landlords sims, there should have been no problem with that being as it is a huge company selling & renting all that land. If SL does not take some issues seriously, they will suffer the consequences in the future !

Trust no one not even the biggest, everyone is on the list to be hacked one day or another, SL protected my wifes account, gratefull, :) Thanks, but I just wanted to know, and maybe should have placed a question instead of a post, Where are security questions on Sl ? Is there a status on general security ? Is there a security department? if so, being as I posted for the first time, HOPING I WOULD GET CONSTRUCTIVE  HELP, I got  unconstructive critics, maybe not all of you as some answers were quite long  TY !!!

If this is our way of helping each other, I think that we all need to take communications skills all over again .

I don't know about all of you but I wish people were ready to really help each other out instead of posting answers just to be noticed ! What do you know about me or my wifes intelligence, if you don't know who I am ?

We just post without thinking!

Thanks to all, this is the last time you will see me here, because frankly, not one of you even asked me if I had any knowledge about IT or the internet, or security, you just all asumed I was some idiot in the backwoods with no know how of anything .

its so easy to tell someone off when you are hiding behind your screen thousands of miles away, How about looking me in straight into my eyes  ?

really pitiful!

Thanks you Linden Labs for at least offering your personal letter to us it just arrived "one day" too late !

Omurtag Milev

 

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The person you rent the sim from has a website that was hacked. How did that compromise your wife's passwords?

I can only use imagination but maybe what happened is this:- Your wife rents the sim and the method of paying for it each month is to use the landlord's website. Since it's paid through PayPal, the site has her PayPal details, which became available to the hacker.

Is that what happened? If it is, then the hacker cannot have got your wife's PayPal password, because the website doesn't need it and doesn't ask for it. It would be a problem is she used the same password for everything, including the website and PayPal.

Unless the same pasword is used for the website and PayPal, the hacker couldn't have the PayPal password. I doubt that it's possible for the hacker to emulate fake sales that your wife pays for through PayPal. I imagine that PayPal only accepts sales from registered sellers. If that's so, then that's not a problem.

All in all, I can only think that the passwords problem was caused because your wife used the same password everywhere (you did say that all her passwords needed to be changed). It's the hacker's doing, of course, but it wouldn't have been such a problem if your wife had done better with passwords.

And, yes, the landord really should have told you immediately.

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you weren't actually looking for anything off anyone here. you just having a bit of a rant. is ok that you do. lots of people do when bad happens

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what happened was that the 3rd party site got compromised. when it did they advise linden immediately they discovered the breach. which the responsible thing to do

both the 3rd party on their own site and linden on theirs (SL) immediate scramble everyone affected passwords. so that everyone locked out of their accounts and have to reset them. this standard security practice. safety first. which you know already being in the industry since everyone else was in nappies apparently

linden sent out an advice to everyone affected an email advice. in which they get told what to do. this standard practice as well. but you know this yes

+

so that leaves only the 3rd party who didnt inform you direct themselves. altho they did take the proper safety action

 

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16 wrote:

both the 3rd party on their own site and linden on theirs (SL) immediate scramble everyone affected passwords. so that everyone locked out of their accounts and have to reset them. this standard security practice. safety first. which you know already being in the industry since everyone else was in nappies apparently 

It would only be a problem to a user if the user was silly enough to register in the 3rd party site using the same password that s/he uses for SL. So, if nobody had done that silly thing, nobody would have been affected because of passwords.

I can't imagine anyone registering in the 3rd party site with their SL username AND password, but it must happen, I suppose.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I can't imagine anyone registering in the 3rd party site with their SL username AND password, but it must happen, I suppose.

yes it happens quite often. people using same nick and password on related but independent sites. is silly to do this but people do it. not most people but quite a few

linden just scramble every account name they get off the 3rd party. most people affected are ok with this

except for part of the sec test to reactivate your SL account. like

please provide the 1st names of 3 of your SL friends. we provide the last name to help you k

_____ Resident

_____ Resident

_____ Resident

 

lolol

people going bananas about this part

 

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Your first mistake here, as you believe others are wrongly assuming you are stupid(when not all posters did, but you'd actually have to read the responses to realize this not just a few of them) is lumping every single response together.

Some people may be arrogant and even ignorant, because they chose not to read your initial post, or your follow up posts, but not everyone is. Just as you'd prefer everyone else not assume you're stupid, you should offer the same courtesy.

I did not assume anything about you, or your passwords. In fact I don't even care how long you've been on the internet, or even your level of intelligence.

What you're asking of LL is simply not possible. They can inform you of THEIR security breaches, and trust me IF it were LL or SL that were breached, they would tell you. They always have. Surprisingly this is one place they don't fail. However the breach was NOT on their servers. It was not on them at all. It had nothing at all to do with them. It was a third party, period. The responsibility for information sits with that third party. Period. There is no "it would be nice if LL would.." because it was NOT on LL, or on SL, whatsoever. It was a third party.

That is the ONLY part I do think you're confused about. I only say this because you've once again mentioned sites, such as banks, paypal, etc.. that discuss security updates. You're right, that is a good thing. It's also something LL already does. They DO inform if there is a breach or issue with THEIR servers, THEIR property  or THEIR customers that involves any of THEIR property. What they cannot do, is update you on another person's property. In this case, the third party, aka your landlord's servers, and property. They can't possibly KNOW the status, so how can they inform you? They don't own the site. They have nothing to do with the site. It's not their responsibility, their place or even an ability they posess. In fact, they wouldn't have even informed you had they not been informed themselves about the breach.

So no, it's not a reasonable request because it's an impossible one.

It's a reasonable request to expect third party site owners to keep their customers informed. It's a reasonable request to expect that site owners in general will keep their customers informer. It's not a reasonable request to expect someone else to do it for them.

Insulting everyone else's experience or intelligence is no more warranted from you than it is from anyone else. It's actually rather rude to be so presumptious. Regardless of who it is coming from, it's rude.

eta: I tend to take language barriers a bit more serious than others I have noticed. I can usually spot them, and I make an extra effort to try my best and understand from all angles. Tot he point I read, read and re-read time and time again. And if I still don't understand, I ask for clarity. However I did not see a language barrier in your intitial post. In your last reply I did see a few statements that might cause confusion because of possible language issues(from both the party reading, and yourself that is). But in reading your "final" response I can see you're quite the rude person. Not only presumptious and rude, but, well, just not nice. You want others to be nice and helpful, but you want the freedom to be a jerk in your responses. It doesn't quite work like that. You can't expect others to be kind and helpful at every turn with responses like that, you just can't. Try as I might, even I can't possibly always be nice and helpful to someone who responds as rudely as you have. I can see why others were a bit more arrogant in their responses. They clearly saw the 'tude in your posts long before I wanted to see it.

I suppose now would be the point when I say.... harumpf...good day sir... and good luck catching any sort of flies with your vinegar in the future. I sure hope you never encounter another problem that may actually rely on the aid of others to assist you. Because odds are, you're not going to find that aid with that kind of 'tude.

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