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Melita Magic wrote:

Yes they seem to disagree with the words rape and fun together but as it might offend some viewers who were not expecting to see it or because minors might see it, that's why.

The adult category covers that, why would you have your preferences set to adult, or arguably even moderate, if the presence of minors was your concern? We used to have two maturity ratings, we got three to help people avoid offensive content, I don't think having four or five is going to improve matters.

 

 

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:"

I get the feeling that he ran across
"reportage" that suggests everyone and their mother should AR every activity in SL that they find "distasteful".

Ah right, interesting article. Set your preferences for adult content, list adult events and then be offended, or even better, set your preferences to adult and then go out of your way to find content that offends you by searching for rape and then to make it even better, publish said results in an article.

 

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Well, into SL and the first thing I see in the forums is a small conflagration. But some interesting points worth thinking on I thought, so into the flame I walk, and not a shred of asbestos. This must be some sort of bravery :) One poster mentions that rape fantasy is common, this begs some questions which i can't see asked anywhere, even if dismissed I can't imagine why they are not, I am not specially perceptive I think. If such fantasies are common, how many of those who are preoccupied to some extent with them have unhealthy, unbalanced or undeveloped attitudes towards women. Now, I see immediately this could be considered irrelevant, but without knowing this we have no way to judge how harmful such a fantasy might (or might not) be in reinforcing negative behaviors. Also we don't know how often such fantasies are acted out in any meaningful way, or the range of such fantasies. What I mean here is that someone may have such a fantasy privately but find it distasteful to act it out, even with a real sexual partner. Is their a division between those who fantasize about such things knowing any approach to the reality of it would not be pleasurable, and those who fantasize about this but them go on and then enjoy enacting such fantasies on/with the bodies and minds of others. (Fantasizing about impossible-to-do things is, after all, common). Is there a further division, people who fantasize about rape and enact it with an equal sexual partner as one might enact a drama, both enjoying it as drama.... and those enacting it from some deep problematic area of their minds, and truly intent on getting as close to a rape experience as possible. I don't know, does it matter? Not sure but I immediately found the questions in my mind reading the statistics. They say a lot, they perhaps don't say more. But such studies are very incomplete, perhaps more needs to be done? I can see it might be argued "well, we are all adults here, so it's surely fine, and anyway its virtual for heavens sake man, lighten up". I am undecided whether to agree with this dismissal or no, though I think it too sometimes writing this, I am really undecided, but the questions just sit there waiting to be asked. Just because people minds only are involved, it is not proven, or necessarily true, that people are unaffected. Neither is it the case that all have an equal ability to defend themselves in such games, or remain unaffected by them. Or is it? Perhaps this is proven somewhere, quite possibly. Difficult questions, not simple, I wonder, is any game ok if it is virtual? I confess I don't know the answer, but I would be fairly confident the answer is not straightforward. And if it is generally considered that not every game is ok in virtual space, which ones aren't? And why?

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JegStiger wrote:

Well, into SL and the first thing I see in the forums is a small conflagration. But some interesting points worth thinking on I thought, so into the flame I walk, and not a shred of asbestos. This must be some sort of bravery
:)


Indeed.


One poster mentions that rape fantasy is common, this begs some questions which i can't see asked anywhere, even if dismissed I can't imagine why they are not, I am not specially perceptive I think. If such fantasies are common, how many of those who are preoccupied to some extent with them have unhealthy, unbalanced or undeveloped attitudes towards women.

Not all such fantasies feature women, nor is everyone who entertains such fantasies the "aggressor" in them.

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That's a very deep discussion really and goes way beyond the subject of this topic and into all kinds of areas of roleplaying, fantasy, infinity and beyond!

I agree with a lot of what you say about reports being incomplete, but I'm not sure we'll discover further results on this forum, it probably requires a far deeper academic style study, which would be probably very interesting.

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Tex Monday wrote:


DarkAusten wrote:

I can't believe that I have just seen a sim called 'Rape City' promoted on the main login page of SL. You have to be friggin' kidding me!!

 

************************************************************************************************************************************

THIS
, I believe, is the main problem the OP is talking about. We can all agree that rape in RL is a terrible thing and that it does happen in SL (although, it's usually, if not always, a mutual RP), but it doesn't need to be shown on the main login page. If it was buried in a search or somewhere in the events, those people who are specifically looking for it can find it.

I do agree with that.

 

I have to second this...or third it.  I don't agree SL is a "haven" for sexual deviancy/fetishes, etc. - it reflects the values and mores of its residents and, as someone said in another thread, there is MUCH more to SL than being "Sex City" - it is just this element that was so widely publicized back in the day.  I do think many people come to SL (and other online venues - this type of thing was going on when IRC was the "social media" of choice) to play out fantasies they would never consider doing in RL.

With that said, I never encounter this type of thing (or anything close to it) in SL because I am enjoying the multitudes of amazing sims, activities, etc. that it offers.  On the other hand, I too am extremely disappointed that this is being "promoted" on the SL login page.  Question - is this only on the SL viewer?  Wondering if Firestorm and other TPVs have different displays since I have yet to see this (and hope I do not).  My opinion of LL is currently fairly dismal, so I can't say this surprises me, but I do disagree with it.

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

That's a very deep discussion really and goes way beyond the subject of this topic and into all kinds of areas of roleplaying, fantasy, infinity and beyond!

I agree with a lot of what you say about reports being incomplete, but I'm not sure we'll discover further results on this forum,
it probably requires a far deeper academic style study,
which would be probably very interesting.

(Emphasis mine)

*Runs around the forums screaming* ACCCKKKKKKKK....now more researchers are going to come out of the woodwork.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

Seriously though, I do agree with both you and JegStiger on this subject being great potential for more psychological study. 

Welcome to SL, and the forums, JegStiger. :)  You are indeed a brave soul.  *Hands flame retardant clothing and a fire extinguisher to keep handy*  I enjoy people who like to ponder deep thoughts. :)

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Thanks for all your replies.

I use Firestorm - so this may be an issue only in FS. Also my topic is not in response to any other articles - just what I experienced in the login page yesterday.

I dont think LL should ban the sims - I would, but that is just me - but a rating system of 'Extreme RPG' might be the order of the day.

I think a line needs to be drawn. Is it OK to RPG racial violence - a KKK sim, for example?

The are no boundaries to RPG and what people want to experience, but you can control the promotion. You can also word things better.

Relationship are a part of SL and obviously sexual animations are 'Adult' rated. That is fine. But 'extreme RPG' may move beyond the general 'Adult' rating. This is my view.

If in future, some serial rapist is caught wih SL rape sims on his PC - well, LL can deal with the PR headache then ;-)

 

 

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Dear Linden Lab,

 

I am seriously can not believe that I give money to this game lots of it too because I enjoy living in another world since my real life is so **bleep** up. But like last week I saw rape city and this week I saw another site called rape too. And the picture were of real a woman and men and of course the woman was getting rape not the men. I am seriously tried really tried of this bull**bleep** with men ok like woman need to stand up and stand up now. Stand up for your children and for your rights as a human being who deserve respect. I am seriously done with this bull**bleep** America is a sick country and wants really bad is the ones that are sick are the ones walking around acting normal. Also second life I was visit some random land and saw real pictures being sold of woman having sex with big dogs. Which is sick and where are all these real picture coming from. I believe and my feelings is second life needs to start step up to the plate and investigated these site and picture but not only that they need to be band for the purpose of woman rights and for the little girls of America it time to fight because all woman are creative equally. And I am done with being Own by the world of men just because I am a woman.

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Can you please type in a way which is easier to read?

I won't comment now on calling SL a game, same goes for the interesting subject on how you seem to feel the need to put money into it...

But I comment on the rest of your text, if I can catch up with this solid wall. This is ridiculous. Without having seen the picture I see a chance of 99% that it is not actual rape being displayed, but a pornographic picture dealing with some fantasy about rough and nonconsencual sex. If that is real rape, then a murderer on TV is a real one.

What have my rights as a woman and those of children (who shouldn't be pulled as an argument into an adult discussion) to do with some porn fantasy? I'm a strong woman and I find this pretty ridiculous. If you would really care about female righs you would fight against other things and have other things to worry about than some stupid porn fantasy. If you really want to do something for female rights, support education, fight against female circumcision in the third world or question yourself if the image of what is beautiful is dangerous for little girls. Vote for women in top positions, get a female president....do something productive that matters.

But please, stop playing police and "investigate" into things you don't like or understand anyway.

And what have the USA to do with all this? Second Life is international. Also...how about Scientology, KKK, nonequal treatment of homosexuals? Thats what I would call sick. Thats something you could worry about. Not some tiny piece of internet, which doesn't change anything at all.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

*Runs around the forums screaming* ACCCKKKKKKKK....now more researchers are going to come out of the woodwork.....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*

*Gets my bucket of tar and feathers out of the back room*

BRING 'EM ON!!!! :matte-motes-sunglasses-2:

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Ciaran Laval wrote:


Melita Magic wrote:

Yes they seem to disagree with the words rape and fun together but as it might offend some viewers who were not expecting to see it or because minors might see it, that's why.

The adult category covers that, why would you have your preferences set to adult, or arguably even moderate, if the presence of minors was your concern? We used to have two maturity ratings, we got three to help people avoid offensive content, I don't think having four or five is going to improve matters.

 

 

Little bit of an accusatory tone so I am not sure if you mean personal 'you' or general 'you' - I think you meant general 'you' but it came out a little personal because your tone is a bit heated. Anyway, to answer as if you meant me, because that's who you addressed it to:

I don't have my settings set to adult and I rarely consult the destination guide anyway. I must have set my marketplace settings to adult and forgotten it long ago because while searching for avatars to help someone in the Avatar forum the other day, the 'realistic avatar' key phrase resulted in a lot of xxx closeups of parts I didn't intend or need to see. Since they are photosourced, I think all of this can get into some sticky legal areas, by the way; pun intended. (Especially as regards RL minors, as discussed in another topic.)

I don't have kids, and if I did, I would not have them looking over my shoulder while in SL or on SL's website, because it's a minefield for things like that.

However I think the point to be addressed here, which has nothing to do with me or any individual, is that children can access this site or SL and see 'adult' things. I have no illusions about the innocence or lack of, that remains, for most teens or even kids, who have been exposed to the internet; curiosity will lead them there eventually. But does LL or any of us wish to be part of that, or be responsible for it?

As for 'adult ratings' and why there might need to be a sub category (or even a category for subs): As  you can see from some of the replies in this topic, not everyone who is open to 'adult' behavior is also open to scenarios in which someone is raped or otherwise degraded. We know that gets some people off but that is not the point either. 

There is more than one reason not to offer such things openly but to put them behind a warning label so to speak. Loss of revenue and loss of reputation. No matter how liberal some would wish the world to be, by and large it simply is not, and  you risk losing some of both, in catering to the few who are totally libertarian in such matters.

I think that was part of what the OP was getting at; in their further reply that said they are not calling for a ban it seems to indicate my assessment of their OP was pretty much on the money. They might wish to not see such things but are not outright calling for its ban from SL. They just don't want to run into it.

As I've often said: I'm not a prude. I just believe in zoning.

xo, Melita

 

 

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And btw, I honestly don't remember why I set marketplace to adult, other than, in the old forums, people would occasionally ask about this or that 'part' and where to get one; also, I think my thinking was that I didn't want to miss any search results that might've erred on the too-cautious side, when the merchant rated their wares.

Having seen the pop ups that result, I might change them back to mature/moderate again. Lol.

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Melita Magic wrote:

Little bit of an accusatory tone so I am not sure if you mean personal 'you' or general 'you' - I think you meant general 'you' but it came out a little personal because your tone is a bit heated. Anyway, to answer as if you meant me, because that's who you addressed it to:
 

I'm sorry, I meant the generic you, I should have said why would anyone.


Melita Magic wrote:

However I think the point to be addressed here, which has nothing to do with me or any individual, is that children can access this site or SL and see 'adult' things. I have no illusions about the innocence or lack of, that remains, for most teens or even kids, who have been exposed to the internet; curiosity will lead them there eventually. But does LL or any of us wish to be part of that, or be responsible for it?

 

For a minor to see adult content via the SL website they'd have to signup, lie about their age and then search adult. They will find far more explicit content without even having to register on the world wide web in general. I think there has to be some responsibility in the home for how children access content in the home.

 

 


Melita Magic wrote:

There is more than one reason not to offer such things openly but to put them behind a warning label so to speak. Loss of revenue and loss of reputation. No matter how liberal some would wish the world to be, by and large it simply is not, and  you risk losing some of both, in catering to the few who are totally libertarian in such matters.

I think that was part of what the OP was getting at; in their further reply that said they are not calling for a ban it seems to indicate my assessment of their OP was pretty much on the money. They might wish to not see such things but are not outright calling for its ban from SL. They just don't want to run into it.

As I've often said: I'm not a prude. I just believe in zoning.

xo, Melita

 

 

Personally I think further zoning would be worse in terms of publicity, then LL are having to identify and cater for extreme content and are seen to be encouraging said content by making filters specifically for it. We only used to have two maturity ratings, adult was added to help people avoid content they may find offensive. People should have to take some responsibility for setting their filters to adult, I really wouldn't like to see a Rape category appearing in search to cater for such content, that would be really bad publicity.

 

 

 

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I guess it's deep, people can be sometimes perhaps. And I take your point, for me it was on topic.... the OP was suggesting that perhaps this shouldn't be allowed, or should be restricted, I thought. This made me think.... if I were Linden Labs what would I be considering if I read that post. Of course I have little idea, but if it were me, I would be considering possible harm, and however complex that thought process proved, I would follow it, as I could. I do not know the answers, of course, people are quite difficult to understand completely, and put a number of them together and it gets more difficult. But asking questions, a whole variety of them, as they present themselves, is a good way to start. These were the questions that came to my mind.

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Thank you for those items Czari, I have stored them carefully and hope this doesn't prove such a dangerous environment that I need them :-) My opnion on this matter changes as I think through it, one thing seems certain (to me) whatever answers there are to be had are not going to be always very simple ones. And thank you for the welcome !

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Adult rated content should not be featured on the public side advertising. Unless and until SL gives up the idea of any rating other than A.

As for the existence of venues like this one... I can see a mixed perspective.

It disgusts me, I find it repugnant in every sense of the word. I wish such things did not exist. I would also rather have these people playing out this fantasy here than acting on the impulse in RL.

In all of these things: rape sims, nazi sims, KKK sims, slavery and gor sims, snuff sims... somewhere there is a line between 'difussing the urge so they don't act it out in RL' and promoting the urge so they get interested in it in RL.

- I've seen it argued that the D/S and BDSM cultures did not take off until Victorian era psychologists began classifying and discussion every kind of 'perversion' they could imagine - causing folks to begin to identify with some of the new categorizations and seek a safe way to be a low-key non-violent Caligula. Somewhat of the Foucault stance on things: though he argues a curious reverse in a claim that hetersexuality did not exist until homosexuality was categorized by Victorians as a perversion (Foucault was a little, special, in the head)... Such a mindset and lifestyle desire surely existed before categorization however - and the debate on that is not at all settled.

 

Are these places promoting evil condult, or diffusing it?

I don't know of anyone who knows how to find when the line between those two is crossed.

I don't think I can make any argument though, that a sim flying the Dixie flag, or KKK, or Nazi; is anything but promoting racism. Is this different? I dunno. I would say they don't diffuse because this form of evil is not something that I think people have a desire to have satisfied somewhere that needs to be diffused by being engaged*. The only way to combat it is through multi-cultural endevours that bring diverse people together.

Many would argue the same can be said of things like rape, snuff, and Gorean/slavery fantasy. Perhaps, perhaps not.

But at the least - get it off of the public advertising.

 

[*] Racism sadly -is- a natural human desire around the world. But it is diffused by bring diversity together, rather than by giving racism a 'safe outlet.' A point proven by the rapidly lowering levels of racism in regions part of the global community.

 

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Melita Magic wrote:

And btw, I honestly don't remember why I set marketplace to adult,

...

I think my thinking was that I didn't want to miss any search results that might've erred on the too-cautious side, when the merchant rated their wares.

A lot of non-adult stuff ends up in adult when it shouldn't be. I often search via adult just to get a wider selection, and make sure no one's looking over my shoulder while trying not to cringe too much...

The reverse is also true... some downright XXX stuff ends up in G more often than it should...

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I think that, if I am not mistaken, graphics are going to become more realistic in gaming and virtual worlds.  Right now there is a cartoon-ish/unreal quality to the graphics.

What happens when the tech becomes better and the line between fantasy and reality blurs? For some, this will be the case.

They have shown that porn can insight rape, and unrealistic views, of women. How will interactive rape sims have an affect on certain individuals?

I saw SL as a beacon for the advancement of positive/creative immersive places. There are some amazing, inspiring sims out there - and amazing creative people. In with this is a mix of destructive/debase sims that hold NO candle these spaces, in my view.

Maybe LL, as well as creating Patterns, should develop a separate world for the more 'perverse' RPG ideas - tap into that market - and keep SL more 'mainstream' and inspiring.

I am NOT saying people should not explore rape sims - that is their freedom - but I think that it is a fetish that appeals to a tiny demographic and is of no real interest to the vast majority of people - hence promote it as such - and keep it out of the main login page of SL - simple.

 

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