New changes are killing this place. What are you doing Linden!?!

[CaseyFallen Popstar]

Hi GothGirl,

Thanks for adding to the thread. I personally and thankfully have not had much trouble with griefers. But the few accounts were not fun at all.

I agree Linden needs to take a stronger stance against such nonsense. But no matter how many regulations you make, you have to take into account that we are dealing with people here. There will always be bad to go with the good and when people can easily hide behind a avatar, the instances will be higher. No matter how much you try to stop this kind of behavior, unfortunately, it will still exist. Let us all just hope less of than more.

 

[Melita Magic]

yay for us dino viewer holdouts. maybe we see mesh as naked people with donut heads but we keep our stuffs.

sorry to hear about the new guantanamo version of welcome island

[CaseyFallen Popstar]

Thanks for joining in n this thread Melita!

 

Yes, When bad glitches like this happen. I always start to think about tchanging to a different viewer.  It is just so tedious learning a new one. I know the SLV viewer so well. Hoping a fix will come soon.

Thanks for the funny comment too. It does feel like guantanamo! hehehe! : P

Thank you for stopping in! : )

[VRprofessor]

So they are sending folks to random RP sims before those folks even have a clue about what they are doing?

I stumbled onto an orientation island when I was new and found it mostly helpful.  The landing point was populated with older avis (8 - 10 of them) that seemed to be engaged in their own conversations and largely ignored the newbs arriving.   That was a bit off-putting, but not harmful. 

There are also a handful of private welcome areas.  Caledon was mentioned, there are others--some with folks almost like anxious puppies when a real newbie shows up.  That can be intimidating in its own right, but better than dropping them on a sim where someone starts screaming at them. 

There are people who design orientation things for a living.  SL should look at sinking some $ into hiring a couple and get the initial experience designed to maximize retention. 

Not everyone will stay in SL.  Many who stay will be transients, moving on after a few weeks or months, but if more people spend more time in SL that has to mean more money for LL.  Or am I missing something?

[161488303349]

probably not missing anything.

in the olden days way like about 7 or 10 years ago when nobody had much of an idea about how 3D programs/worlds worked was lots of handholding needed. now not so much

in the v3 viewers (TPV and linden) all the basics like how to walk fly sit change your clothes etc on the Context Help on each of the dialogs. is quite comprehensive they are if can be bothered reading them

+

at the drop zone when you first login now is portals. if you need/want more help then can go thru the Help portal. end up at places like Oxbridge, NCI, White, Ajuda, etc when you do

is assumed that grownup person will choose the Help portal if do need more help. if you dont then can choose one of the other portals. like Games or Building or Music or Shopping or Adult or whichever

+

some newbies tell people that they get accosted by giant penii when they first start. like o.m.g. was horrible !!! but they actual choose the Adult portal. so

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Melita Magic wrote:

yay for us dino viewer holdouts. maybe we see mesh as naked people with donut heads but we keep our stuffs.

sorry to hear about the new guantanamo version of welcome island

---

Dino viewers unite!!!!!

I'm having a lot of fun looking at the strange people on the grid with donut heads.   A friend of mine suggested I start a Flickr stream on "This is how I see mesh."  I seriously need to do that.

[Melita Magic]

do eet

[Darrius Gothly]

/me seconds eet ...

[Eileen Fellstein]

---

Jo Yardley wrote:

For instance, you are an avatar on an small island and need to get off.

---

 I think I happened upon that guy one time traveling around SL

[Eileen Fellstein]

Yes, the starter area is horrendous. When I did it recently, the avatar I chose did not even load (I'm assuming along with a good many other things I should have been seeing) I got impatient waiting and just rebuilt it myself via freebies from MP. The next day I logged in and the items for the default avi I had chosen had finally showed up and were superimposed on top of the changes I had made myself.

It was an interesting look! lol

But yea, I don't know. it doesn't seem like it should be that hard to design a good intro tutorial.

Here is your avatar. Here is ONE button on your task bar. It's blinking. This makes you move...

...about 5 feet straight ahead to a bot or sign that makes you do one simple thing.

BAM! Now a new button is added next to the 1st. The pulsating glow effect is now active on the new button instead of the 1st one.

You click it and it opens your inventory which contains a single folder with SHOES!

etc, etc, etc

 

Not that hard. C'mon you guys. At least act like you are not trying to self destruct your own game here.

[Porky Gorky]

Logic dictates that LL would like to retain new users. Logic would also dictate that they would be willing to pay a modest fee if it meant they could improve their retention ratio.

I believe that if someone..... anyone, contacted LL and arranged to go in there to pitch a new welcome system to them that actually worked well and could potentially double or triple new user retention, then they might even be falling over themselves to get out the chequebook. It would need to be a finished design, heavily market researched and trial tested with extensive user feedback, but these are just formalities. A knowledgable SL user could easily accomplish this with the right resources and I really think LL would be interested to see it at the very least.

[Eileen Fellstein]

I think the starter area should be designed like a club. That would put a lot of people right in the middle of the kind of social setting they probably heard about from friends. Instead of coming in to an empty room with scripted objects that may or may not load to direct them around, There would be real people to interact with.

I worked hosting my 1st couple years in SL at places that had a lot of new people and spent the majority of my work time teaching new people the basics. If individual sim owners can finance a staff to do this for their business 24/7, why can't Linden Labs?

[161488303349]

---

Porky Gorky wrote:

Logic dictates that LL would like to retain new users. Logic would also dictate that they would be willing to pay a modest fee if it meant they could improve their retention ratio.

I believe that if someone..... anyone, contacted LL and arranged to go in there to pitch a new welcome system to them that actually worked well and could potentially double or triple new user retention, then they might even be falling over themselves to get out the chequebook. It would need to be a finished design, heavily market researched and trial tested with extensive user feedback, but these are just formalities. A knowledgable SL user could easily accomplish this with the right resources and I really think LL would be interested to see it at the very least.

---

i think the main problem of running a welcome area 24/7/365 is the cost of staffing. like professional greeters/mentors. bc of the one on one nature

like if getting 10,000 news a day then how many staff do you need and how much do that cost

+

so linden did the volunteer way. was same for the private helpy community programme when that was tried as well. when linden was direct new people to them places on the signup. they total rely on volunteers as well

+

a volunteer programme is quite fraught really. bc can only staff your WA on the volunteers timetables. and is not much you can do if they not turn up for duty. even when they said they would

also is a real skill to manage volunteers. they have to believe in what they doing for starters

then have to spend a whole heap of time on helping them personal on the psychologicals and emotionals. bc constantly being in front of strangers is quite draining. and if you not have good supports in place for that then soon end up burn out your volunteers. and they get a little bit grumpy when they start to burn out. which comes out in their dealings with the new people

 

 

 

[Jo Yardley]

Wouldn't work for me, I would instinctively avoid other people when first trying to join some online project.

Simply because I would feel more comfortable first trying to figure things out on my own or because I'm too stubborn or not patient enough.

And yes, any kind of area that would involve other people would also allow more chances of people griefing new people or giving them a negative idea of what SL is about and it would need staf, funding, people donating time, etc, etc.

That is why I suggest LL puts all the instructions as a sort of mini game on their website, something for you to do while downloading the SL viewer or as part of the sign up process.

Maybe there can even be all sorts of small instruction 'games' that you can return to at a later date, a bit like interactive video's like Torley used to make.

[Dillon Levenque]

 

 

I think that describes me pretty well, too. I do know I stayed by myself and quiet for a long time when I was new. It's really a difficult problem: people are so different. Some are happier asking questions, some are happier finding out the answers on their own, and not because they're necessarily more independent, either. Part of that might just be that we don't like admitting we don't know something so we go learn before we ask. Also, considering the complexity of SL that would tend to be a LOT of asking.

I don't know what the answer is. I've advocated at least some kind of very early notice/disclaimer that gives the new user a clue that a long learning curve awaits, with links to tutorials right at the start.

[Melita Magic]

Dublin did quite a good job with that. Often was someone there to greet people as they logged in or help a newbie. They had a pub nearby too, in case people wanted company or more help.

Not sure why LL wanted to shut all of that down.

 

[161488303349]

agree with your principle/concept. should be game-like at the start

+

if go back to one of the earlyish new first time login programmmes

it went: Welcome Island -> Orientation Island -> Help Island -> SL proper

was path directed

you couldnt do much on Welcome Island. just chat and look and move round a bit. couldnt do anything much else there. was quite deliberate that. to keep people moving on so that can fit the next new person on the sim.  so you did move on bc was nothing to do

Orientation Island. so follow the OI path to the Exit and click on the stations as you go. so you did that. or if get bored then just go to the end and jump thru to Help Island. on the OI path do the tutorials. navigation. change outfit. use camera. stuff like that. again the directed path keeps you moving

at the end then go to Help Island. where could learn about building (if you wanted) and how to get a home/parcel. more advanced stuff. then out to SL after that

was quite good that way. same like you saying with a web game. bc was a game at the newbie login start in them days. game like in the sense was levels and goals to accomplish before you get to SL proper. levels and goals that learn you the skills you going to need

+

Rodvik said one time that this didn't work out well for new people retention. forcing people thru a directed path didnt help linden

what i think is missed in these kinds of analyses is they maybe dont actual look at the game mechanic itself. the reward/value proposition 

if was one thing i think there wasnt enough of on the linden WI>OI>HI>SL intro was tangible rewards for achievement at that stage of the game

+

like for example say was me making this then:

to start with in your inventory. all you get is the starter outfits. nothing else. as you go then you earn more clothes. vehicles. animations. gestures. stuff. on Help Island if do the building tuts then earn textures. sounds. sample scripts and so on

Cloud Party learned/knows why we will do this. on their beta when complete the tuts then get stuff. if do all the tuts then get a free house and parcel. so i do the tuts. not bc i wanted to do the tuts but bc i wanted the reward. the parcel and house. and i learn how the UI/world worked in getting it

so by the time i get the house then i start rezzing my stuff it in straightaway bc i knew/learn how by then

 

 

[161488303349]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Dublin did quite a good job with that. Often was someone there to greet people as they logged in or help a newbie. They had a pub nearby too, in case people wanted company or more help.

Not sure why LL wanted to shut all of that down.

 

---

linden kinda havent shut them down completely. one of the portals direct you to places like Dublin, Caledon, Shelter, Hyde Park, etc. just cant get directed off the web page signup anymore

+

the difference between straight orientation and say Dublin/Caledon etc is that they are community oriented. their purpose is to foster their community. is a good thing this. to foster and grow communities i think. is quite subtle differences tho in how you approach it

 

[Nimh20 Vandeverre]

Linden Lab has fanboys/girls just like Apple.  There is no use arguing with them, trust me it gets you no where.  A lot of people are going to disagree with this but Second Life's only salvation is getting on Steam http://store.steampowered.com/ which they announced back in August 2012.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

CaseyFallen Popstar wrote:

Hello,

First...please do not take the tone of this reply as anything but pleasant. I am a big fan of your blog posts! Just don't agree with you on this subject.

You wrote "Does your government do that for you in 

RL

 when you buy something that you think ripped you off or you have a bad experience with a merchant?"

My reply is: Yes, they do return the money to you. If the police catch a bank robber with the banks money in their pocket. It is simply returned to the bank.

Linden has the prefix I.D. They see the money left my account and they can see on the sellers account that my money is deposited in their account; in their pocket , if you will.

It would not be that hard for Linden to write the seller and investigate. If no reply, then remove the money from their account back into the purchasers. They could even make a system very easily that would show if items delivered or not. (If they do not have this already) Today more people than not are very sketchy about spending money online. If they cannot feel safe and protected while doing it. Then it won't happen. Take that away from S.L. and this place is no longer a money maker for Linden or anyone else for that matter.

As for contacting the seller. I tried for days. Note crads and I.M.'s It is pretty obvious the seller has not been online in over a year just by looking at the profile and when all posts stopped.

Here is the kicker. Because the store is on a free 512 piece of land, this means the sellers overhead is about $5.00 a month. Assuming she paid a year at a time to save on the membership fee. My purchase alone has made the store able to stay another month. I am sure it is getting one ripped off person a month. It could stay forever at that rate. Meaning more and more people are having this happen to them. I shouldn't have to point out all the reasons this is bad for S.L. as a whole.

Thank you so much for your addition Amethyst! Enjoy your input!

---

Where I live you can report a bad merchant it they broke they law and they will investigate and prosecute them if evidence exists, but they don't give you your money back unless the law broken was a criminal level law (as opposed to a civil tort) and they are caught red handed with money that is clearly yours, which is rare. Even then it can take years until all appeals are settled etc.

Generally, you have to sue them in a civil court to get a judgment.  A judgment is only an order to pay the money back.  If the person complies that's all good.  But if they don't then you have to seek another order to enforce it by garnishing wages or seizing money from an account or property that can be sold to pay you back.  But if the person has no assets your basically SOL.  The judgment stays on record and if they get any assets in the future, you can rinse and repeat getting an enforcement order.  But it is up to you to monitor them to see if they obtain assets in the future, the government doesn't

I do agree with you that it would be nice to have  a sort of 'better business' department run by arbitration with a professional arbitrator completely independent of LL and SL.  If the arbitration is in your favor then LL should enforce it if they can.  But if they don't have money in their account LL couldn't pay you back.  The problem is funding such a thing.  They'd get a lot of frivolous cases as well as people who are just flat our wrong. It would also discourage people from being merchants if they get hauled before an arbitrator anytime a customer has a complaint, legit or not.  Even charging a small fee in L's, say a percentage of the recovery or even 'court costs' wouldn't be enough money to pay an arbitrator.  You couldn't use any SL resident for this as experience has shown that generally when a resident is involved in running something it is not unusual for favoritism to come into play or for the 'power' to go to the residents head.  Over the years residents in SL have tried to set up a BBB but have always failed for some or all the reasons above.

I also think that any merchant should be required to be active and log into SL at least once a month or more frequently with a few provisions for people taking vacations or a temporary illness.  Perhaps a warning could be sent if they don't comply with a limited time to log in and take care of business followed by removal of the store from in world or MP if they don't.

[Melita Magic]

---

Nimh20 Vandeverre wrote:

Linden Lab has fanboys/girls just like Apple.  There is no use arguing with them, trust me it gets you no where.  A lot of people are going to disagree with this but Second Life's only salvation is getting on Steam

http://store.steampowered.com/

which they announced back in August 2012.

---

Haven't noticed any fanboys/fangirls. Maybe some longtime residents who see both good and bad to the existing service.

[CaseyFallen Popstar]

Great to hear from you again Amethyst!

Great post and good points!

We have the same "small claims" system with courts for smaller disputes, however Second Life has quite a few things that "Real Life" does not. I don't think the system would have to be this convoluted, let me explain why.

First, in real life you do not have a system that keeps track of sales via a ticket system. (Well, except for the paper receipt, but lets forgo that for the moment) With the system in Second Life there is no disputing the amount paid or whether a customer paid and merchant received said payment. 

Second, Second Life already has a great "Negative balance" feature. If a person does not have lindens in their account. They can still take the money, which will make a negative balance. If the person does not make this balance positive before their next land fee or membership fee due date, their account is suspended and they can no longer log-in until such balance is paid. This system is already set up. So getting the money would not require much effort at all. Not to mention, it is not often that a merchant does not have some Lindens in their account. The next profit from a sell would go directly to pay off the negative balance rather then in their pocket. So the issue of them not having the money should never come up. 

Finally, I wanted to point out that I do not think linden should be in the business of returns or unhappy purchases. Furthermore, "All sales are final" is a policy Linden already has. Which in my mind is completely different from not getting a item at all. So no judicial system should be needed. 

I do however agree with you 100% about your proposed "merchant should be required to be active and log into SL at least once a month" policy and have also thought about how Linden should have a policy for merchants like you have already underlined for us. I also believe that If they are not in-world, their selling privilege's should be revoked. 

Thanks for your insightful additions!