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SL's Economy - Tier vs Time


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In a way, I kind of think that Lunus Torvold has it wrong.

See, he was never a "marketing" guy. He made the kernel that runs all the gnu tools which make up the Linux os. He is a coder at heart, and he seems to throw off an air of unconfidence every time he's interviewed. this is not in any way talking smack. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the man.

But what he has made possible is more capable than he seems to acknowledge in the video you have posted. I can do everything in Linux that I can in Windows. I will admit that I heavily rely on other people for the proper drivers etc. but that is no different than in Windows, except that the drivers and such come from third parties instead of directly from the manufacturer.

The interview in a way speaks to the humbleness of Linus, and all those connected with the GNU project. The fact is that right now, tablets and smartphones, which run Android, which is a Linux derivitave, are taking a shocking amount of marketshare. What you posted, 16, looks to me like Linus Torvold is unaware of his own success. It's understandable, in light of what I said in an earlier post about the fact that open source takes longer to come to fruitition than closed source.

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yes is true that Linus is a humble person

what he was talking about tho was the sheer amount of effort on the part of a general purpose OS core team and the peripherals and hardware makers to synchronise what they doing to maintain compatibility and not break stuff

where Linux shines is when this restriction is removed

phones tablets and same other devices dont need to synch in the same way that general purpose computers have to. they single purpose self-contained little consumables. server side computers the same. they single purpose as well

each server/consumable device maker can mod the OS to suit their device. only need to remain compatible with a very limited number of peripherals which they usual make themselves anyways. and a common agreed set of internet/comms protocols limited down to only exactly what their device does/needs 

is the freedom to do the mods that makes Linux so attractive. this was what Linus was saying. in his humble roundabout way of talking

 

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that in a way goes right back to what I was saying. That open source takes a little more effort or hunting on the part o fhte user, but in the end offers a much more customizable experience.

I can use windows on only one kind of computer... My pc. but I use linux on both the pc and my phone. It's also used in microcomputers like Raspberry and Rikomagic MK802.

It seems to me that while the gnu/linux crowd of the 90's is disappointed by the lack of a revolution, they're almost eager to denounce the evolution they've caused. It's almost like because it took as long as it did, they view their own success as a failure.

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solstyse wrote:

It seems to me that while the gnu/linux crowd of the 90's is disappointed by the lack of a revolution, they're almost eager to denounce the evolution they've caused. It's almost like because it took as long as it did, they view their own success as a failure.

I think much of the disappointment came from the realise that ordinary computer users not embrace opensource in the same way that the os advocates wanted them to

is quite hard to realize/accept that nobody much cares about what makes their computer phone tablet go. people only really care that it does go. how it goes then umm! so what really

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is a bit like when people buy cars. they dont really care what is under the bonnet. like what is the engine type or model. most people have no idea. and they not care. just want it to go when they turn it on

i read one time that the single biggest factor that people take into consideration when they buy a car is its colour. is the same computers and fridges and stuff like that. if is shiny on the outside and cool bits stuck on it then buy it. after that then only care about if it actual goes

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand that there are people who just want to build in a public place for fun.


I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand that I totally 'get it' that there are people who want to build just for fun.    But, what I don’t get is why they feel the need to slam on the people, and place, where there are those who want to build for profit, which is what you’ve been doing.  If you only just want to build “for fun”, then there would be no need for you to try and convince everyone that LL/SL sucks, and that OpenSim is the answer. 

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:


 SL would not exist without the people who wanted to do precisely that. They were the early adopters.


Yes, but the early adopters were a handful.  The reason SL grew, is because of the profit based ventures, and the economic dynamics. 

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:


 How come I have never seen any of your builds in the past six years since I signed up here? Maybe you're building for fewer people than you realize, even on this densely populated grid.


Celestiall Nightfire is not my only account. Perhaps you have seen something I’ve built, but you just don’t know it.  

 

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:


 I described the capabilities of what I get for $26 per month. I don't own the grid, but I do own my regions. In SL I could spend $40,000 per year and still wouldn't own anything.


So, my assertion that for OpenSim to grow, means moving away from the “freebie mindset” is confirmed.  Because, you have now switched from talking about free, to talking about paying money.  

 

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:


 My point is that you may have delusions about SL's popularity. As a brand name, SL is better known than OpenSim of course, but in terms of popularity, it is merely the leper with the most fingers. And recently it keeps losing fingers at an alarming rate.


You keep suggesting that I have delusions.   Even after you switched from a stance about OpenSim growing because of freebie culture to admitting that you pay real life money.  Lol

See you’re doing it again. Slamming SL. 

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:


If you run a business in SL and that business pays for less land than you could own on an OpenSim grid, then you essentially give away your products for free -- not to your customers of course, but to Linden Lab, who then use your content to bind more people to their service. This is the reality for the vast majority of content creators in SL. They work for Linden Lab, not for themselves.

Since I want more land than I could possibly afford by running a business in SL (I would have to sell $3,000 worth of content per month to pay tier for my nine regions), OpenSim is the only viable option for me. This is not a freebie mindset but a perfectly rational economic decision. If you measure the purchasing power of your work in terms of square meters rather than Linden dollars, you will find that OpenSim grids offer a better deal to creators than Second Life does.

You are basically saying that it's my own fault if I don't manage to produce and sell $3,000 worth of content per month. You call me a "hobby builder" for not trying. Well, I'm glad I don't have to, and I gladly accept the hobby builder tag for the privilege of running those nine regions without worrying about a business plan. I've seen top quality builders fail in SL because they shared your beliefs. Latest examples: the Hosoi Cluster and Empress and Hierophant.


First:  Where do you get this stuff?  Like writing that I’m saying it’s someone’s “fault” or that they/you aren’t trying?  What the hell.   Inserting your own spin and twisting someone else’s words?  I called you a hobby builder because you, yourself, said you build “for fun”.   Lose the chip on your shoulder…sheesh

As to sims disappearing, it’s basic business economics.  Not everyone will succeed.   But, that doesn’t mean that the platform is not good, it’s just the law of averages.   Why do you assume that I don’t understand the concept of cheaper overhead?  My inworld business venture partner and I have already discussed adding a venture to OpenSim, and we may do so next year.  If we do, it will be a profit based venture, not the freebie mindset, which permeates OpenSim, and has hindered its growth.

It’s not something new that some of these sims are struggling.  But, that is the nature of life.  There is nothing permanent, and certainly not in a virtual world.   If we’re talking amazing sims disappearing, then the Privateer Space Sim is the sim that left a big creative hole in SL.  But, the creator/builder continues to create with a multitude of alts, as she did before, in SL.  That is the joy of creating, as she knows that the maximum amount of people will see and enjoy her builds in SL.  (Not that OS hasn’t also seen the like ; )

 

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that is a fact that I've been trying to reconcile in my own real life for a long, long time. I care what I drive, what computer I use, how the hardware and software work, what affects this and that... etc... People who don't care are ones I just can't relate to.

maybe it's more difficult for those who create the products. maybe I'm too "in the middle" for my own good, betweent he consumer and the creator. Maybe I'm just a nerd who does way too much research. i dunno.

But when it coes to computers, I want to know what my os is doing in the "background." I wnat to know what is trying to get past my firewall, what is trying to control aspects of my computer automatically.

when I get a car, i want to know whether certain parts are servicable. I want to know where bushings are used instead of bearings to keep costs low. I want to know how parts fit. And I want to know what OS the car is running for it's OBD system. (Yeah, I guess I AM a nerd.)

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solstyse wrote:

(Yeah, I guess I AM a nerd.)

no you not. you an enthusiast (:

i like to know what makes my computer go these days. mostly bc i have a big rage when it dont go. i start throwing stuff. even the computer sometimes. like when it dont go then i see if it can fly and how high can it jump off the floor. jejejjeeje (:

but i dont care about my car. just get in and go. just need to know where to put the petrol. sometimes when it dont go then i get grumpy at it as well. but i cant throw it bc is to big. so i kick it instead. stupid thing (:

 

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16 wrote:


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

My point is that you may have delusions

delusions are funny things. lucky for us there are serious people who dont delude themselves

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June 2012

December 2012

 

-->   ♥  16!  : )

 

Oh, and look, here's me with my self-made skin, and no hair (was in process of making hair for my OS avatar) and wearing my Hippiestock 2 t-shirt out in OpenSim...and the woman who is slumped over (away) in the picture is Maria who writes the Hypergrid blog. 

Snapshot_012.png

 

Snapshot_011.png

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nice hair. both of you. just need find the hair salon both of you seems like (:

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i like to read Marias blog. she an enthusiast for hypergrid. and thats cool. she never hide the facts tho. sometimes she have an opinion on what is the reasons behind the facts. and sometimes quotes other people who have reasons as well. that ok as well

but bc she never hide the facts then i got respect for her as a person and commentator

 

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I'm not getting involved in the discussion between you two because I'm skipping most of it, as I do with very long posts, even though I sometimes write such posts myself. But I read something that I want to comment on.


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

If you run a business in SL and that business pays for less land than you could own on an OpenSim grid, then you essentially give away your products for free
-- not to your customers of course, but to Linden Lab, who then use your content to bind more people to their service.
This is the reality for the vast majority of content creators in SL. They work for Linden Lab, not for themselves.

The vast majority of creators (imo) work for themselves and not, as you stated, for Linden Lab. The vast majority (imo) don't make a lot of money from it, if any, but they would like to, and because some of them, including me, do make a lot of money from it, SL is *the* place to do it, regardless of the cost of land. It isn't possible to make a lot of money, or even aim at making a lot of money, in any other system, simply because there aren't sufficient users (potential customers) in any of them.

Because most creators don't make a lot of money in SL, it is only a hobby for them, but it's a hobby that could eventually make good money. Creators in OS grids have to be hobbyists because there isn't the potential in any of them for making a lot of money. So, if a creator isn't interested in making good money, then the OS grids might be the best systems for them, simply because they can have more land there for their money than in SL. But if a creator wants the possibility of making good money, then the only place to be is SL, and I imagine that the vast majority of creators want that possibility.

For the vast majority of creators (imo), it boils down to this:- Which system has the potential of making good money from creating stuff? And there's only one answer to that question. Land and prims don't come into it. For the relatively small number of creators, who create only for the sake of creating, if there are any of those, then that question doesn't arise, and (imo) an OS system is the best for them because of the land and prims, unless, of course, they want as many people as possible to see their creations, and then we're back to SL.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand that I totally 'get it' that there are people who want to build just for fun.

If you "get it," why do you keep pointing at sim-on-a-stick as if it were the same thing as a sim on a public grid?


But, what I don’t get is why they feel the need to slam on the people, and place, where there are those who want to build for profit, which is what you’ve been doing.

I'm not slamming anyone who builds for profit. It's easy to build for profit in SL: Just put some stuff on the web marketplace and walk away.

I am merely pointing out that if you measure "success" in land mass, there are very few profitable businesses in SL. And that means most people here do not work for themselves. If you pay 100% of your earnings to the state in the form of taxes, you don't work for yourself.

Marketplace commission is a tax on income. Tier is a tax on property. The difference here is that an income tax does not keep residents from making money, but a property tax does. If the tax burden on property is too high so that it exceeds earnings, people have to cut back their land ownership. This is why SL landmass keeps shrinking.

The problem here is that merchants who give up their land and retreat to the web marketplace still put pressure on those merchants who try to keep their land. The web marketplace is the equivalent of an offshore tax haven: make money in SL, but spend it elsewhere. You only have to extrapolate this trend to realize that SL will soon be gone. Its economic model is no longer sustainable. And it seems that the Lindens know this but do not care. They milk the SL cow as long as they can, while they reposition themselves as a game development company (Patterns, Creatorverse etc.).


Yes, but the early adopters were a handful.  The
reason
SL grew, is because of the profit based ventures, and the economic dynamics. 

The reason why SL grew was because for each net consumer turning into a net seller, there were a handful of new consumers signing up and picking up the tab.


Celestiall Nightfire is not my only account. Perhaps you have seen something I’ve built, but you just don’t know it.  

Aren't we all successful business people on our alt accounts? Where have I heard this story before?


So, my assertion that for OpenSim to grow, means moving away from the “freebie mindset” is confirmed.  Because, you have now switched from talking about free, to talking about paying money.  

The reason why you feel confirmed is because you switched from "open source mindset" to "freebie mindset."

I never claimed that OpenSim is free. I just claimed that it offers a better deal to those who want to own land. Maybe you should go back and read my first post again.

You want to prove me wrong? Show me someone running a 9-region sandbox in SL!


There is nothing permanent, and certainly not in a virtual world.

There is, but it takes an open source mindset.


If we’re talking amazing sims disappearing, then the Privateer Space Sim is the sim that left a big creative hole in SL.  But, the creator/builder continues to create with a multitude of alts, as she did before, in SL.  That is the joy of creating, as she knows that the maximum amount of people will see and enjoy her builds in SL.

See, that's what I'm talking about. She works for the Lab without realizing it.

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16 wrote:

delusions are funny things. lucky for us there are serious people who dont delude themselves

+

June 2012

December 2012

 

I recommend reading past the headlines. Of course, with the number of grids doubled, there is some leakage on the top 40 ones. As long as most of the new grids open themselves up for hypergrid travel, decentralization is a good thing.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


16 wrote:

delusions are funny things. lucky for us there are serious people who dont delude themselves

+

June 2012

December 2012

 

I recommend reading past the headlines. Of course, with the number of grids doubled, there is some leakage on the top 40 ones. As long as most of the new grids open themselves up for hypergrid travel, decentralization is a good thing.

what it shows is that OS has the same troubles that SL has. declining numbers of both users and regions publicly available

also many of the pioneers of OS have moved on to other types of worlds technologies for commercial purposes. even if they still have a passing interest in OS. Adam Zaius for one. the people behind ReactionGrid for another

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why is this?

is bc of the hard limits. the architecture means that can only get 40 viable regionviews at the same time. region full after that. same as a 404 error. is possible to get 100000s of sametime regionviews. just cant have individualized avatars

this is not viable as an inworld model/view for the global avatar-based Metaverse. so the architecture has to change. which means the change when/if it comes is going to break SL and OS

+

people like Adam Zaius,  as an example. are exploring the alternative tech/architecture options.  in his case by building an alternative experience on Unity so it can be viable for him in terms of more simultaneous region/page views

http://www.reslive.com/

 

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If you're going to all keep arguing about sl vs os, then at least have the courtesy to wait until I get more popcorn. :)

I remember once I got into a friendly debate with someone who wanted me to go to the Wasteland sim here in sl, but I was busy on a new startup sim. My side of it was, "I can be a small part of something that's already big, or I can take my chances and be at the beginning of something that might grow." I think on a much larger scale, that's what the OS people are thinking.

And all this talk about everything being doomed is just plain hilarious. When did Chicken Little gain so many impersonators? lol.  Neither sl or os can kill the other. They're too different. The lifespan of each will be determined on it's own merit. SL's shrinking. Yep, so what? So is everyone. When sl charges $300 per month that third party OS grid server farms can profit by renting out for $50, and give many more prims to boot, there is no question that the profit margins are there to keep SL afloat. And with OS being developed by people who just have apassion for it, no overhead for employees or offices, that grid can afford to shrink too. It really doesn't hurt either of them.

To say that the mp is going to doom sl is like being one of those creepy homeless guys in a tinfoil hat wearing a sign that says, "Repent for the end is nigh." There are rp sims, which have switched from renting to shops to a more residential business model. There are clubs that can survive based on traffic and donations. The sl economy is smaller, but it's still there. Yes, there are even shops that survive.

The flipside to the whole sl economy and possibility of profit mindset is that sims are so cheap in OS grid that there's not really a need to make them profitable. If someone just wants a large playground, they can have it.

The reason why open source and closed source people often have such a hard time reconciling their differences is because they are totally opposite in the way they approach almost everything. The arguements are the r4esult of people refusing to acknowledge the success of others. And there is nothing more true than the fact that the consumer benefits from that tug-of-war. Think about it. Microsoft and Apple are both very successful and popular. But so are Gnu/linux, Apache, Mozilla, and Android.

In a big way, sl is the most ironic place in the world to even have such an arguement. Since LL uses a hybrid model. Servers = closed, Viewers = open.

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For anyone who is not aware, you do not have to pay a $1,000 setup fee for/per sim. You can do a resident to resident full land transfer. They go from anywhere between 150-350usd each, which is paid to the seller by the buyer. There is a $100usd transfer fee but alot of sellers will include that in their price. So basicly it cost you $150usd for "setup" and $295 a month in tier per full estate sim. Included in the transfer fee is an optional sim name change and a optional sim move. 

Homesteads are cheaper per month tier wise at $125usd per month, so really you could get away with 9 sims for far less then you stated.

At $150usd per sim trasnfer fee included set up would be $1350usd for all 9 sims. You can have the sims renamed and move into any configuration you want.

Tier per month on 9 estate sims would be $2,655usd or $31,860usd a year.

Tier on 1 full estate sim and 8 homesteads would be $1,295usd a month or $15,540usd a year

So depending on the amount of prims needed per sim for the "project" your estates were a bit off concering setup fees and annual pricing depending on your needs.

There is also mainland (dont run away screaming now lol) Mainland even with its flaws and over crowding is a very viable place for large scale builds like a 9 sim build. The benefit of being on mainland for something like this is alot more people will liking see your build just by stumbling upon it will no adveritsing or promoting needed on your part. The negitive side is mainland can be laggy but it depends on your machine and your internet speeds. I "lived" on mainland for over a year and never had any lag problems at all, so it isnt all laggy.

Back to the positive points, you can find mainland for full purcahse transfer for very low prices sometimes free and you just have to pay the transfer fee. 

So doing this scenario again with mainland sims it would be lets says "free" land with a $100usd and tier of $195usd a month per sim.

"Setup" on 9 mainland sims $900usd. Teir on 9 mainland sims would be $1,755usd a month or $21,060usd annually. Though admitedly finding 9 mainland sims next to each other for free and that are not being used would be likely impossible, but for purposes of theory there it is. I have never owned mainland sim, I have only rented there so There may be more perks of pitfalls about mainland Ownership then i am aware of.

Also if you pay the $10usd for premium a month and want mainland you could i believe get the first mainland sim at 1/2sim teir price, because with premium you get 512sqms free. So that might be a loophole there since the difference in mainland tier is $195/full and $125/half you would be saving $60/month after taking off the cost of premium.

I will not say SL land prices are cheap as far a maintaning a piece of land but they are not drasticly unreal or impossible. I've never used OS for more then an hour so i have no idea on any of their pricing for anything but in my opinion it doesnt compare to SL, yet.

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All the facts you mention are sincerely appreciated. Welcome to the forum, since it's your first post! How long were you lurking? Now be honest :) lol

All good natured jokes aside, I really am glad you posted the info, but I disagree with your opinion that sim cost isn't a problem. Even the cheapest 9 sim scenario you wrote, while well thought out, is higher than what some United States citizens make in a year. The cheapest monthly fees are equivalent to a car payment, and you're not going to ride your sl land to work.

However, this thread is all focused on how much land is lost. What about the losses of non-landowners? Admittedly, that's probably a bit harder to track, but still. What do you think would happen if LL did make so more people could afford land, but was unable to boost the number of non-landowner memberships? I think we'd end up with that same empty feeling that everyone says is holding OS back.

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