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SL's Economy - Tier vs Time


Leia36
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Leia36 wrote:

I'll give you an example, I answered a classifieds ad about three months ago, the poster wanted a custom logo for his shop. I am a graphic artist (amongst other things) in RL and I answered his ad. Usually a logo such as he wanted would take around 8 hours from concept to completion in various formats. I calculated my normal rates and the price I would charge in RL would be close on 65000L and that's bargain basement rates, he wanted to pay me 1200L ..lol

Point is a logo is a logo here or in RL. The above is only an example I am sure others have had there own experience. I am curious about how others feel, the OP is not a challenge to anyone's rice bowl.

Your opening statement in your first post is wrong, as can be seen in your second post (that I've quoted). I.e. land is not the only RL money thing in SL. Land cost RL amounts because it's an RL thing - computers. But there's an other RL thing (time) that is also sold to be used in SL, and your second post states it.

When someone wants another person to use RL time to create something for them, then it's sensible for the creator to charge accordingly - RL time. There are many people who will use their RL time to create things and charge SL-type amounts for it, but they are the ones who get it wrong, imo - not those who charge according to their actual work if the work is external to SL. At the same time, I don't blame anyone for only wanting to pay an SL amount of money for someone to do some RL work for them, but they certainly can't expect to only pay that.

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Not sure if wrong is the correct word. The OP and the posts I wrote were/are aimed at enticing a debate about something I am/was trying to fathom from the more experienced SLers such as yourself. I may have gotten the terminology wrong, but I was lumping all land purchases under one common term.

The quote you quoted was a part of the argument I was using to illustrate my point. ie: that services that bridge the gap between RL and SL mostly never get charged out at RL prices, the one exception is land (server usage) which always does.

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Alright - incomplete :)

You are right about RL work often or usually being charged at SL rates. It's really up to the worker. If the worker considers it to be part of his/her SL hobby, then I can understand him/her only charging SL-type amounts. But it's never wrong or out of step to charge RL rates for RL work.

I've never been asked to do any RL work that's to be used in SL. The closest I've ever come to it is when people sometimes ask me to do a variation of an item that I already sell - usually just a texture or colour change - and, although it uses my RL time, it's still just a part of my SL hobby, so I never charged them any extra for it even though every one said they'd pay more.

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Yes I have experienced that myself recently, there was a skin I wanted modified with a permanent tattoo layer and a lighter shade. The creator charged me nothing extra for his time which surprised me. It took him at a while to deliver but it was worth it. Now I understand why a bit better. Thank you :)

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>> it can't be done with the Open Source mindset, as the freebie part negates the market dynamics of SL.

 

It can't be done _without_ the open source mindset.

 

Most of SL's land-owning content creators already work for free, since all their earnings are sucked up by Linden Lab in the form of tier. From an economic perspective it makes no sense for them to be in SL. They are working for the Lab, not for themselves.

 

I am currently working on a large mesh build that will fill at least one entire region, possibly more. I own a 3x3 region area on OSgrid, and the build will be rezzed there when finished. This kind of thing is _impossible_ in Second Life. Those market dynamics of SL are precisely the reason why you will never see truly immersive continuous builds in Second Life. Nine full regions in SL would cost me $32,000 per year, plus $9,000 for the initial setup. I'd have to sell more than $3,000 worth of content every month to make this affordable. Instead of working on the things I wanted to build in the first place, I would find myself producing mainstream items such as shoes and clothing, because those are the only things that sell in large quantities. I'd have to compete with merchants who own no land at all and sell only through the web marketplace. I would depend on donations. Most likely I would have to set up a shopping or rental area in my regions, invite collaborators, or scale the entire project down to a manageable size. After a year or two, I would have to give up and let Linden Lab delete my work, like so many others before. I've seen this happen again and again. I joined SL in 2007, and all my favorite places from that year are gone.

 

OpenSim is a builder's dream come true. Vast amounts of land, unlimited prim size, full backup capability. The fact that Linden Lab's grid is shrinking tells me that more and more residents wake up and smell the coffee.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

>> it can't be done with the Open Source mindset, as the freebie part negates the market dynamics of SL.

 

It can't be done _without_ the open source mindset.

 


Hmm, that's why OS grid rivals SL right?  Hahaha  (But, as we both know it does not!! ) 

 

 

 


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

Most of SL's land-owning content creators already work for free, since all their earnings are sucked up by Linden Lab in the form of tier. From an economic perspective it makes no sense for them to be in SL. They are working for the Lab, not for themselves.


Well, maybe you'd better rush out and explain that to all the land barons and people actually making money in SL.  I'm sure that will be news to them.   (some people I know totally support themselves with their SL content creation and/or inworld rentals) 

 


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

A bunch of stuff about how SL does not work for want they want.


Hey, SL isn't for everybody...ya know? 

 

 


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

OpenSim is a builder's dream come true. Vast amounts of land, unlimited prim size, full backup capability. The fact that Linden Lab's grid is shrinking tells me that more and more residents wake up and smell the coffee.

OS is fine if you want a handful (if you're lucky) of people to see your build.  OS not full of people.   I know it, and you know it.

So, if someone just wants to build 3D objects for a hobby, just get a sim-on-stick, and have your own little grid.  Can get a four-sim package to setup easy.   But, it will just be *your* playground.  Sounds like you're a hobby builder, who just wants to make things for youself.  If so, then sure, OS or sim-on-a-stick is fine.

I've tried over, and over, to find something comparable to SL out there in OS grid-land, and it's not there.  I'm a member of a OS Sci-Fi grid, but when I do go there, there is never anyone there! I've spent days wandering around OS grid seeing great builds, and no avatars.  I'm just not interested in logging into an empty 3D build-scape, which is what OS grid is.  I prefer to interact with other people, that's why I'm in SL.

As for backing up SL builds, anyone can log into SL with the Impudence viewer and do a XML backup to their hard-drive.  I do it all the time for my SL builds.  I do it in reverse too.  I've made something in an OS grid/sim, and imported it into SL.  It's not a problem. 

I think the LL shrinking has as much more to do with the RL world-wide economic recession, than the barely-visual OS grid/sims being any kind of competition. 

Bottom line is that the economic dynamics that make SL, is also the very thing that keeps Open Source grids from growing.  The freebie culture is why the really good content creators are not out in OS, as it's not worth their time to make things to give away free.  Without good content, and competition, you do not have a dynamic environment. You may not like that reality, but it's still the reality.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

Most of SL's land-owning content creators already work for free, since all their earnings are sucked up by Linden Lab in the form of tier. From an economic perspective it makes no sense for them to be in SL. They are working for the Lab, not for themselves.

Well, maybe you'd better rush out and explain that to all the land barons and people
actually making money
in SL.  I'm sure that will be news to them.   (some people I know totally support themselves with their SL content creation and/or inworld rentals) 

I'm with you on most of your post, Celestiall, but I have to comment on the part I quoted.

Masami said "land-owning content creators" which doesn't include land barons. I believe that most land-owning content creators don't make money in SL, because most of them are tiny loss-making businesses that are just an enjoyable hobby so, imo, Masami was right on that point.

However, OS grids don't get off the starting line when it comes to making money because they have so few users,, as you pointed out, whereas it is possible to make decent money in SL from land-owning content creation.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 I believe that most land-owning content creators don't make money in SL,

... whereas it is possible to make decent money in SL from land-owning content creation.

Huh?   You wrote two opposite statements.

Phil, SL mirrors RL.   In RL rates of business failure for first-year businesses is at least 50%, often higher.  So, sure, plenty of people in SL (just like RL) who try to do content creation and also own land, do not make a profit.  That's normal.  Why people in SL think that the normal market economics would not effect them is a mystery. 

But, a person does not need to own land in SL to have a business.  A SL resident can sell on the SL marketplace, and not have tier to pay.  I know merchants who do that, they even list in their profiles that they only sell on the SL marketable.

Incidentally, I know a woman who is a SL content creator, and she own four sims solely for the purpose of displaying her merchandise.  She makes enough money to pay sim tier X 4, plus pay a scripter, mesh-modeler, and still makes money for herself.  Will everyone be able to do this?  Maybe not, but the opportunity is there.

The thing is, that just like RL, there's no guarantee that someone will make money, as not all people have the same artist talent and/or skills.  But, they could.    Without opportunity, people cannot thrive.  The small OS community stifles that opportunity by lashing out at those who wish to make money.   (I'll be happy to provide an example of this undesirable OS trait,  if you wish to know more) 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

However, OS grids don't get off the starting line when it comes to making money because they have so few users,, as you pointed out, whereas it is possible to make decent money in SL from land-owning content creation.

I've really tried hard expanding to OS grids, right from the start of their popularity. I am involved in 5 businesses in SL each selling different types of content and I have pushed varying types of content hard on the 3 most popular OS grids in past years. I now consider the whole venture a failure. I have made sales but nothing like what I have made in SL and not even enough to cover the time I have invested in migrating to and supporting those grids. For me, from a commercial point of view, OS grids are no longer worth my time and investment. There are much more lucrative markets out there to tap into such as IMVU and Cloud Party maybe has potential down the road.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

 I believe that most land-owning content creators don't make money in SL,

... whereas it is possible to make decent money in SL from land-owning content creation.

Huh?   You wrote two opposite statements
.

Phil, SL mirrors RL.   In RL rates of business failure for first-year businesses is at least 50%, often higher.  So, sure, plenty of people in SL (just like RL) who try to do content creation and also own land, do not make a profit.  That's normal.  Why people in SL think that the normal market economics would not effect them is a mystery. 

But, a person does not need to own land in SL to have a business.  A SL resident can sell on the SL marketplace, and not have tier to pay.  I know merchants who do that, they even list in their profiles that they only sell on the SL marketable.

Incidentally, I know a woman who is a SL content creator, and she own four sims solely for the purpose of displaying her merchandise.  She makes enough money to pay sim tier X 4, plus pay a scripter, mesh-modeler, and still makes money for herself.  Will everyone be able to do this?  Maybe not, but the
opportunity
is there.

The thing is, that just like RL, there's no guarantee that someone will make money, as not all people have the same artist talent and/or skills.  But, they could.    Without opportunity, people cannot thrive.  The small OS community stifles that opportunity by lashing out at those who wish to make money.   (I'll be happy to provide an example of this undesirable OS trait,  if you wish to know more) 

No I didn't write two opposite things. I believe that most land-owning content creators don't make money is SL - but some do. I.e. it is possible in SL ;)

The marketplace doesn't come into this little sub-discussion, because it's only land-owning content creators that are being discussed.

Yes, the opportunity is still there to make money by being a land-owning content creator. I am one myself and I still make money from being one. I've never used the marketplace and I never will, so what I make is solely from being one.

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

However, OS grids don't get off the starting line when it comes to making money because they have so few users,, as you pointed out, whereas it is possible to make decent money in SL from land-owning content creation.

I've really tried hard expanding to OS grids, right from the start of their popularity. I am involved in 5 businesses in SL each selling different types of content and I have pushed varying types of content hard on the 3 most popular OS grids in past years. I now consider the whole venture a failure. I have made sales but nothing like what I have made in SL and not even enough to cover the time I have invested in migrating to and supporting those grids. For me, from a commercial point of view, OS grids are no longer worth my time and investment. There are much more lucrative markets out there to tap into such as IMVU and Cloud Party maybe has potential down the road.

IMVU pretty successful all by itself. is some potential for Cloud Party i think. dunno if you seen Bananabread yet

https://developer.cdn.mozilla.net/media/uploads/demos/a/z/azakai/3baf4ad7e600cbda06ec46efec5ec3b8/bananabread_1348775105_demo_package/index.html

 

is a compiled javascript mod of Cube Saubraten that use HTML5. is interesting bc it plays pretty fast. almost as fast as old school C++ compiled Cube Sau. it use the new mozilla javascript engine. is rated 25% faster than the old version apparently

+

i got a private OpenSim that i play on and make stuff. but am finding that compare to UDK and Unity is kinda naff now. i rather play and mod on Cube Sau if i want to do old school retro style stuff these days. Minecraft even more than OpenSim

if SL which is pretty retro itself is not going anywhere longterm then OpenSim is going anywhere even less i think. from a purely creative visual pov anyways

 

 

 

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Because of what you and Porrky said, I just signed up, downloaded, and logged into IMVU, and it's..... weird lol. No walking etc., and no world - just isolated rooms. It says you can make your own stuff but I didn't try to find out how because it looks like the only place to sell anything is on a sort of marketplace thing - no inworld shops. I suppose that people get used to it, but I find it too weird to be interesting. At least I've had a look so I'll know what it is when people mention it :)

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Yep. That's pretty much what it looked like to me. I entered a room where 2 other people were, one of whom was, like me, trying to figure out how to walk lol. I'd guess that the other was the room's owner? as he seemed to know what he was doing.

Going from SL to IMVU meant that IMVU was of no interest to me but not because it was different. I came to SL from a scrolling text system - very different - and I found that SL was *right* up my street. It appealed to me enormously.

 

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16 wrote:

is a chat room with pictures IMVU. is pretty popular in the same way MSN is

if you go there from SL like you did then is quite limiting

Yeah, as a virtual world IMVU is vastly inferior to SL in many ways in my opnion. If I didn't have the option of selling content there I wouldn't be interested. I got myself registered a few months ago as a content creator or "developer" as they call us there and have so far managed to sell some mesh items that I developed for SL. I think I have found a niche or 2 to exploit so I am now putting allot more effort into creating content that can be sold across multiple platforms.

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The server cost, as related to content creation, is difficult to justify. I suspect that hosting fees will continue to rise. 

The most basic fundamental of economics, is to make something as cheap as is possible, and then to sell it, for as much money as you can possibly get.

That system would be fine and dandy, IF, markets were truly free, and the field were level. This is not the case; the table is titled, leaning in favor of a select few.

Through time, and participation, certain recognitions have been established. It was necessary to do this, in order to secure the future for all economies.

A primary driver, for the contraction of the World economy, may be found in the divisions of opinion, between those who do, and those who only say.

Virtual currencies, compete with fiat paper and coin currencies. Currencies of Nations are traded against other Nations, in Market competition. Following a crashing system, would not be wise.

I believe mesh is both good, and bad.

Good, because objects use improved technology.

Bad, because the objects are imported.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 wrote:

IMVU pretty successful all by itself. is some potential for Cloud Party i think. dunno if you seen Bananabread yet

 

 

Cool thanks for the link. It looks really interesting, I don't know how I have missed it, I am normally all over stuff like this :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

I have mixed feeling about Cloud Party. Initially I was really enthusiastic about it. With Cory Ondrejka involved I felt sure that we finally had a candidate that had the potential to rival SL and even surpass it. After playing and experiencing it first hand for a few months I was not that impressed. There are lots of things about it that I like, but lots of important development still needs to be done. That being said, it is still early days and there has been allot of improvements made in the last 6 months and I am starting to get a really good vibe about it again, especially now they have opened up accounts to everyone rather than just Facebook users.

Whatever happens, I have to get involved in case it does really take off. Through luck rather than judgment I was ideally placed to capitalize when SL exploded in popularity after LL opened free accounts up. I am very eager to repeat this success and get in/on a new platform early on . Blue Mars just failed to deliver and I think I have already missed the boat with IMVU  which is annoying as Rene Erlanger was advising me to go there years ago and I have only recently started selling content there. Doh!

So I have high hopes for Cloud Party. On a personal level I want it to succeed so I can milk it dry. But I also want it to succeed because I think SL needs competition  LL have been complacent for too long. This could be the kick up the arse that they need to start caring about this community again.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Hmm, that's why OS grid rivals SL right?  Hahaha  (But, as we both know it does not!! )

I don't know if OSgrid is a SL rival, but OpenSim as a whole certainly is. Why else would the hypergrid expand while SL keeps shrinking?


Well, maybe you'd better rush out and explain that to all the land barons and people
actually making money
in SL.  I'm sure that will be news to them.   (some people I know totally support themselves with their SL content creation and/or inworld rentals) 

How many land barons or content creators do you know who set aside nine full regions for non-commercial use? I don't want tenants, I just want the land.


OS is fine if you want a handful (if you're lucky) of people to see your build.  OS not full of people.   I know it, and you know it.

This is circular reasoning. First you're saying that people don't go to OSgrid because it lacks content, and now you're saying it's pointless to put content there because it lacks people.

In the end it's all about quality and advertising. Just because someone launches a region in SL doesn't mean that everyone will drop by automatically. The content must be worth looking at, no matter where it is, and people need to be informed about it.


So, if someone just wants to build 3D objects for a hobby, just get a sim-on-stick, and have your own little grid.  Can get a four-sim package to setup easy.   But, it will just be *your* playground.  Sounds like you're a hobby builder, who just wants to make things for youself.  If so, then sure, OS or sim-on-a-stick is fine.

OSgrid has been around for half a decade, has a web portal for account management, a forum, a wiki, a friendly community and a good reputation. I'm not sure I'm getting the point of your suggestion. "Hobby builders" should not share their stuff with others?


I've tried over, and over, to find something comparable to SL out there in OS grid-land, and it's not there.  I'm a member of a OS Sci-Fi grid, but when I do go there, there is never anyone there! I've spent days wandering around OS grid seeing great builds, and no avatars.  I'm just not interested in logging into an empty 3D build-scape, which is what OS grid is.  I prefer to interact with other people, that's why I'm in SL.

That's because you're not a builder. Builders prefer to spend their time alone in skyboxes rather than parking their avatar on a pose ball in a dance club. As I said: OpenSim is a builder's dream come true. It's not necessarily a dream that all of us share.


As for backing up SL builds, anyone can log into SL with the Impudence viewer and do a XML backup to their hard-drive.  I do it all the time for my SL builds.  I do it in reverse too.  I've made something in an OS grid/sim, and imported it into SL.  It's not a problem. 

That's an export/import, not a backup/restore. Importing creates a new object with new assets. Restoring modifies the original assets to a previous state, including object inventories, scripts, terrain, parcel data and settings. You can't do that in Second Life.


I think the LL shrinking has as much more to do with the RL world-wide economic recession, than the barely-visual OS grid/sims being any kind of competition. 

Maybe, but how do you explain those thousands of daily new sign-ups who never return after the first look? Is that because of the recession, too?


Bottom line is that the economic dynamics that make SL, is also the very thing that keeps Open Source grids from growing.

But they are growing. The shrinking grid is Linden Lab's.

Again I notice some weird reasoning here:

 

  • If SL grows, it's because of the in-world economy. If it shrinks, the causes are external (recession, global warming etc.).
  • If OS grids shrink, it's because of the lack of an in-world economy. If they grow, just deny that it's happening.

The freebie culture is why the really good content creators are not out in OS, as it's not worth their time to make things to give away free.  Without good content, and competition, you do not have a dynamic environment. You may not like that reality, but it's still the reality.

I'm sorry to burst your delusional bubble, but the really good content creators are neither in SL nor in OpenSim. Remember how scared everyone was when Linden Lab introduced mesh to the grid? How everyone thought it would attract the professionals, disrupt the market and kill mom's and dad's little prim business?

Apparently the professionals had better things to do than to join SL's cheap labour force.

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Porky Gorky wrote:


16 wrote:

IMVU pretty successful all by itself. is some potential for Cloud Party i think. dunno if you seen Bananabread yet

 

 

Cool thanks for the link. It looks really interesting, I don't know how I have missed it, I am normally all over stuff like this :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

I have mixed feeling about Cloud Party. Initially I was really enthusiastic about it. With Cory Ondrejka involved I felt sure that we finally had a candidate that had the potential to rival SL and even surpass it. After playing and experiencing it first hand for a few months I was not that impressed. There are lots of things about it that I like, but lots of important development still needs to be done. That being said, it is still early days and there has been allot of improvements made in the last 6 months and I am starting to get a really good vibe about it again, especially now they have opened up accounts to everyone rather than just Facebook users.

Whatever happens, I have to get involved in case it does really take off. Through luck rather than judgment I was ideally placed to capitalize when SL exploded in popularity after LL opened free accounts up. I am very eager to repeat this success and get in/on a new platform early on . Blue Mars just failed to deliver and I think I have already missed the boat with IMVU  which is annoying as Rene
 Erlanger was advising me to go there years ago and I have only recently started selling content there. Doh!

So I have high hopes for Cloud Party. On a personal level I want it to succeed so I can milk it dry. But I also want it to succeed because I think SL needs competition  LL have been complacent for too long. This could be the kick up the arse that they need to start caring about this community again.

i think the CloudParty/bananabread has lots to do with the tech a the moment from hosting pov. is early days yet. the HTML5 compiled javascript engine is pretty good once you got/dl all the assets needed. when it borks then has to reset and start over. if the game makers can work out how to make more immediate streamingish on startup SL style then will be better for the user

+

as far as a serious challenger to SL i think it less to do with the tech and visuals. have everything to do with the financials security. people want to know that their financial dets going to be looked after and kept secure. and that when they trade then they will get their money looked after. both creators and users

for all of its other problems linden been really good about this overall. is true they got a lazy way of dealing with IP issues and IP robbery but on the trading financials security side then they way up there compare to some other companies. even mega multinationals who sometimes been a bit lax on that part

i think the challenger to SL is going to come from whoever can secure financials dets so we can trade safe. and one that decide to be more proactive on IP issues. US law says any hosting company that is IP proactive cant be held liable if they make a mistake when protecting their own safe harbour status

like for example if linden did block IP stuff that they themself know to not belong to an account then is nothing RL legal that the account holder can do about it

Apple is example of a company that do this way. they just block and then is up to the uploader to do something about it. sometimes is some legit IP holder gets their stuff blocked but compared to all the illegals then is hardly any

most legit IP holders actual OK with this way. same like RL bank account holders. security paranoia is a good thing in a bank. i am quite happy that my bank is paranoid about what they do with my money. i rather they block than not block. is same with IP i think. block it for me please if you the host not sure. i am happy to sort it out with you later bc is my IP

as a creator/trader the only time i am not going to sort it out later is when i dont really care enough about my stuff to bother. or it isnt actual mine

 

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Hmm, that's why OS grid rivals SL right?  Hahaha  (But, as we both know it does not!! )


I don't know if OSgrid is a SL rival, but OpenSim as a whole certainly is. Why else would the hypergrid expand while SL keeps shrinking?


OpenSim is what I'm talking about.  If you did read the article you linked to, you'll see that the major growth is due to profit based ventures expanding.  (which fits in with what I had stated, and you said was wrong : )    Also, there are some big grids, but all those sims have very few people in them.   I know, because to go to those places looking for people!    OpenSim does not rival SL, not even as a "whole".  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, maybe you'd better rush out and explain that to all the land barons and people actually making money in SL.  I'm sure that will be news to them.   (some people I know totally support themselves with their SL content creation and/or inworld rentals) 


How many land barons or content creators do you know who set aside nine full regions for non-commercial use? I don't want tenants, I just want the land.


Then just go get yourself sim on a stick.  Why all the vitriol towards a for profit venture like SL? 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

OS is fine if you want a handful (if you're lucky) of people to see your build.  OS not full of people.   I know it, and you know it.


This is circular reasoning. First you're saying that people don't go to OSgrid because it lacks content, and now you're saying it's pointless to put content there because it lacks people.

In the end it's all about quality and advertising. Just because someone launches a region in SL doesn't mean that everyone will drop by automatically. The content must be worth looking at, no matter where it is, and people need to be informed about it.


I didn’t say it was pointless to put content into the nearly empty OpenSim spaces.  I said that if you want people to see it, then OS is not going to be the place to build.   If you’d read my comments, you would have seen where I wrote about being a member of an OpenSim grid, and going to OS.  I also wrote that there are amazing builds out in OS, but only a handful of people see them.   I don’t know too many people who want to build just for themselves or a handful of other people.  If you’re one of those, then sure OS is for you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, if someone just wants to build 3D objects for a hobby, just get a sim-on-stick, and have your own little grid.  Can get a four-sim package to setup easy.   But, it will just be *your* playground.  Sounds like you're a hobby builder, who just wants to make things for youself.  If so, then sure, OS or sim-on-a-stick is fine.


OSgrid has been around for half a decade, has a web portal for account management, a forum, a wiki, a friendly community and a good reputation. I'm not sure I'm getting the point of your suggestion. "Hobby builders" should not share their stuff with others?


Why do you keep assuming that I don’t know about OS grid?  Did you even read my comment?  I know about the portals, forums, wiki, etc.  I’ve been all over hypergrid, and started going there right after the first OpenSims were up and running.  Who said anything about hobby-builders not sharing their stuff?  You just won’t admit that that the sharing with others on OpenSim is going to be scant numbers, which was my point.  

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I've tried over, and over, to find something comparable to SL out there in OS grid-land, and it's not there.  I'm a member of a OS Sci-Fi grid, but when I do go there, there is never anyone there! I've spent days wandering around OS grid seeing great builds, and no avatars.  I'm just not interested in logging into an empty 3D build-scape, which is what OS grid is.  I prefer to interact with other people, that's why I'm in SL.


That's because you're not a builder. Builders prefer to spend their time alone in skyboxes rather than parking their avatar on a pose ball in a dance club. As I said: OpenSim is a builder's dream come true. It's not necessarily a dream that all of us share.


Wow, you totally did not pay attention to what I wrote.  Yes, I’m a builder.  Have been building in SL since day two.  Have owned shops, sims, been part of large build teams, currently setting up another sim.  I also build in OpenSim.  But, none of that means that OpenSim is equal to SL, or, that it will become SL’s equal.  I maintain that the reason OpenSim will continue to have issues is due to the freebie-mindset. 

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As for backing up SL builds, anyone can log into SL with the Impudence viewer and do a XML backup to their hard-drive.  I do it all the time for my SL builds.  I do it in reverse too.  I've made something in an OS grid/sim, and imported it into SL.  It's not a problem. 


That's an export/import, not a backup/restore. Importing creates a new object with new assets. Restoring modifies the original assets to a previous state, including object inventories, scripts, terrain, parcel data and settings. You can't do that in Second Life.


It’s irrelevant.  When I make something in SL, and then export it with XML, and import it into an Opensim space, the result is the same.  I have what I made.  What you’re describing can’t be done on most OpenSim grids, and OS virtual worlds, and is something that can only be done by the OpenSim admin/owners.  I visit several science and university OpenSim grids, personally owned grids, etc, and there’s not one of those places where a complete assets backup can be done by someone who is not the sim owner.    So, if I want my own little OpenSim running on my own hard drive or server, then it can be done.  You’re putting quite a spin on the capabilities of what one can do in OS, unless they are running the grid/sim themselves.

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I think the LL shrinking has as much more to do with the RL world-wide economic recession, than the barely-visual OS grid/sims being any kind of competition. 


Maybe, but how do you explain those thousands of daily new sign-ups who never return after the first look? Is that because of the recession, too?


There have always been new sign-ups who never return, that’s nothing new.  It’s happens in all the online games and virtual worlds.  So, what’s your point? 

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Bottom line is that the economic dynamics that make SL, is also the very thing that keeps Open Source grids from growing.


But they are growing. The shrinking grid is Linden Lab's.

Again I notice some weird reasoning here:

  • If SL grows, it's because of the in-world economy. If it shrinks, the causes are external (recession, global warming etc.).
  • If OS grids shrink, it's because of the lack of an in-world economy. If they grow, just deny that it's happening.

First, I didn’t say that Open Sim/Source spaces were growing at all.  I said that the freebie mindset, and economics will keep it from growing.  I think if OpenSim spaces had a market driven mindset, then they would be able to rival SL.  But, the freebie culture by its very nature will limit OpenSim growth.   Right now, there are people who want to experiment, so you have new people checking it out, but without a market driven economics, I do not think it will gain enough traction for anything substantial.  What will continue to grow are the for-profit ventures in OpenSim. 

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The freebie culture is why the really good content creators are not out in OS, as it's not worth their time to make things to give away free.  Without good content, and competition, you do not have a dynamic environment. You may not like that reality, but it's still the reality.


I'm sorry to burst your delusional bubble, but the really good content creators are neither in SL nor in OpenSim. Remember how scared everyone was when Linden Lab introduced mesh to the grid? How everyone thought it would attract the professionals, disrupt the market and kill mom's and dad's little prim business?

Apparently the professionals had better things to do than to join SL's cheap labour force.

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When I said good content creators, I meant within SL.  But, thanks for the snark. 

 

I suspect you have some axe to grind against LL and SL.  I read your comments over on the NWN blog regarding land barons, and you’re one of those people who aren’t just happy to go to OpenSim to build.  No, you have to spread your personal dissatisfaction of SL to everyone else.  That’s what you’re doing.  I see it all the time with OpenSim people, all this bitterness.  There’s also an incredibly high amount of drama, backstabbing, and bile amongst the OpenSim community, and some of which has impacted the most generous members.  SL may have some drama, but OpenSim has egos that are huge, and more than average percent of people who are difficult to get along with.   Which maybe is why they are out in OS?

 

 

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

 

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 [stuff]

______________________________________________________________________________

 

I suspect you have some axe to grind against LL and SL.  I read your comments over on the NWN blog regarding land barons, and you’re one of those people who aren’t just happy to go to OpenSim to build.  No, you have to spread your personal dissatisfaction of SL to everyone else.  That’s what you’re doing.  I see it all the time with OpenSim people, all this bitterness.  There’s also an incredibly high amount of drama, backstabbing, and bile amongst the OpenSim community, and some of which has impacted the most generous members.  SL may have some drama, but OpenSim has egos that are huge, and more than average percent of people who are difficult to get along with.   Which maybe is why they are out in OS?

 

 

can seem like this sometimes

but is lots of good people on OS. quite a lot of teachers went that way. some people (not actual teachers) say was bc of the tiers that linden wanted. so they use that

is partly true the cost part. but is actual more true that school boards like sim-on-a-stick better bc of the internet safety side for their students. same the principal and senior faculty. when is contained only on the school property/computers then the boards and parents and senior faculty like it better that way. is a teaching tool. not a social experiment. most the teachers get that

+

is other good people who make OS just bc they like doing it. the codeys who start the project and who carry on the dev side of it are pretty nice people as well

+

where I agree with you

is the wannabee gods of the universe who make the problems. most them think they can run the world better than linden. also is same same backstory to them all

they tried to make some something in SL. when it fail then they blame linden. high tiers. lack of enforcement. lack of support. lack of personal attention from linden staff. lack of whatever

then they say to themselfs if only linden listen to me and do my way then it would be better. and i would not have fail

so  they not take ownership of their own fail. never do. just blame someone else. always do

+

then they go off and take all the hard work that all the good OS people have done. like they never do anything themselves. bc they gods and in their own minds gods dont do that. just rule the worlds and the whole universe

+

when their grand god of my own world fails as well then they blame linden again

bc linden make us all slaves to the L$ and we to dumb to see that and they think we can be free somehow if we could only see how dumb we are. not like them. when they lost a fortune on their fail SL venture then wasn't their fault. was lindens. so we all going to fail as well. they just not able to accept that was them that failed. and we all to dumb to not see that as well

is nutso. but is how they think

their whole way of thinking is based on: i will not fail if you do what i say

is not even thinking this really. is apebrain emo

 

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These debates about tier are always entertainging. Especially when OS gets involved.

"Sl should lower tier because so much land is being abandoned."

"There's so much land in OS, but nobody there."

Those two seem to be the main complaints. But truthfully, how poplulated is the land in sl? The truth is that as a corporatiion, LL has had to do some sort of analysis to come up with the prices they charge. And the prices won't change until they re-analyze and the results show that land prices are causing them issues. we can all speculate here, and it's great fun. but we don't have access to all the info that they do.We can all wish that land was cheap like in opensim, but that can't happen.

I think that what all the users are wishing for is a happy medium. Something where there is land that is affordable to the average person, but not so much of it that it's constantly nearly empty. And what makes this hard to obtain is that there are two extremely opposite approaches.

On the LL side of the arguement, tier prices ae actually prohibitive to some of the more creative people out there. $300/month is quite an expense. Bearing that kind of financial burden alone is like giving up the ability to make payments on a brand new car just for a virtual playground. But approached from a business standpoint, it does allow just about anyone to be a virtual landlord and subdivide up the land into parcels to try to make some money back, keep a little land for yourself and create on a small scale.

On the opensim side of the arguement, the lack of an economy makes for less motive to create "professional" builds, even while granting more ability. In other words, the only people who will build for opensim are those who are self motivated. Teh people who build for no reason other than that is what they like to do.

I think there's plenty of room in the world for both, and even a third. Back in the 90's, everyone thought that open source software of any kind was insanity. Today, open source operating systems based on Gnu/Linux is giving Windows some serious competition. (For clarity, Android is built on the linux kernel.) But it took over a decade for linux to be an operating system for everyone. Until then it was for hackers and developers. Well, opensim is kind of like the Linux of virtual worlds, while LL is the Microsoft. I doubt that opensim will ever see the numbers that LL does, or turn the profit that it does. And I'm sure that for the average virtual world enthusiast it'll take a long time for opensim to be the right choice. Right now, it seems like more of a specialized environment for a specialized user, that has hopes of one day going mainstream.

For the original post... I'm equally confused about what makes tier prices so high. The only GUESS I have is that the tier stays high as a way to prevent the feeling of emptyness that has been mentioned in regard to opensim. I think maybe the number of free accounts and premium without land are part of the equation, in addition to the traditional balance of supply and demand.

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

If you did read the article you linked to, you'll see that the major growth is due to profit based ventures expanding.

You got that backwards. The profit-based ventures you mention are not in-world businesses but region hosting providers, and these expand due to growing demand for OpenSim regions. If you look at the grid list linked to the article, you'll see that most of those grids still do not have any in-world currency. Yet they keep growing, and new grids get added.

What makes OpenSim grow is the demand for (public) virtual land by people who do not want to run a business. In SL, if you want to own nine regions like I do, you need a very solid business plan. You need to pay $9,000 to even launch those regions, and if you keep them for a year, you'll be spending a total of $40,000. That is the salary of a full-time graphic artist -- or the price of a new 3-series BMW. Who would spend that much on a computer game? It's insane. My OpenSim regions on OSgrid cost me $26 per month. And mind you, I've rented them from another profit-based venture. They are not freebies, they are just competitively priced.

I wonder why it is so hard for you to understand that there are people who just want to build in a public place for fun. I don't want to join Linden Lab's cheap labour pool and produce content which they then use to lock even more people into their overpriced world. You keep recommending sim-on-a-stick as if it was the same as a public grid running 24/7 on dedicated hardware. It is not. People will be able to see what I build -- if they want to. There are no barriers. OSgrid.org is included in the grid selector of the Firestorm viewer by default. Comparing it to a homegrown and firewalled sim-on-a-stick makes no sense.

I don't know if OSgrid really lacks content, but if it does, that's one more reason for people like me to go there and build, don't you think so? :)


I don’t know too many people who want to build just for themselves or a handful of other people.

SL would not exist without the people who wanted to do precisely that. They were the early adopters.


Yes, I’m a builder.  Have been building in SL since day two.  Have owned shops, sims, been part of large build teams, currently setting up another sim.

How come I have never seen any of your builds in the past six years since I signed up here? Maybe you're building for fewer people than you realize, even on this densely populated grid.


It’s irrelevant.  When I make something in SL, and then export it with XML, and import it into an Opensim space, the result is the same.  I have what I made.  What you’re describing can’t be done on most OpenSim grids, and OS virtual worlds, and is something that can only be done by the OpenSim admin/owners.  I visit several science and university OpenSim grids, personally owned grids, etc, and there’s not one of those places where a complete assets backup can be done by someone who is not the sim owner.    So, if I want my own little OpenSim running on my own hard drive or server, then it can be done.  You’re putting quite a spin on the capabilities of what one can do in OS, unless they are running the grid/sim themselves.

I described the capabilities of what I get for $26 per month. I don't own the grid, but I do own my regions. In SL I could spend $40,000 per year and still wouldn't own anything.


There have always been new sign-ups who never return, that’s nothing new.  It’s happens in all the online games and virtual worlds.  So, what’s your point?

My point is that you may have delusions about SL's popularity. As a brand name, SL is better known than OpenSim of course, but in terms of popularity, it is merely the leper with the most fingers. And recently it keeps losing fingers at an alarming rate.


First, I didn’t say that Open Sim/Source spaces were growing at all.  I said that the freebie mindset, and economics will keep it from growing.

If you run a business in SL and that business pays for less land than you could own on an OpenSim grid, then you essentially give away your products for free -- not to your customers of course, but to Linden Lab, who then use your content to bind more people to their service. This is the reality for the vast majority of content creators in SL. They work for Linden Lab, not for themselves.

Since I want more land than I could possibly afford by running a business in SL (I would have to sell $3,000 worth of content per month to pay tier for my nine regions), OpenSim is the only viable option for me. This is not a freebie mindset but a perfectly rational economic decision. If you measure the purchasing power of your work in terms of square meters rather than Linden dollars, you will find that OpenSim grids offer a better deal to creators than Second Life does.

You are basically saying that it's my own fault if I don't manage to produce and sell $3,000 worth of content per month. You call me a "hobby builder" for not trying. Well, I'm glad I don't have to, and I gladly accept the hobby builder tag for the privilege of running those nine regions without worrying about a business plan. I've seen top quality builders fail in SL because they shared your beliefs. Latest examples: the Hosoi Cluster and Empress and Hierophant.


I read your comments over on the NWN blog regarding land barons, and you’re one of those people who aren’t just happy to go to OpenSim to build.  No, you have to spread your personal dissatisfaction of SL to everyone else.  That’s what you’re doing.

I was responding to a land baron who complained that the web marketplace disrupts his business. That was his dissatisfaction, not mine.

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