General problem on SL in world

Kenbro Utu · January 8, 2013

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

LL is not in the business of making sure you make a profit either. They are a business that is concerned with their own bottom line. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't making more money off MP commissions than they would from tiers from in world stores.

Do they make any real money off the MP commissions (cash buys aside)? I have wondered about this often. I was under the impression that any time Lindens are paid to LL they were said to be seen as a sink. Does LL sell Lindens back to residents on the Exchange? I was also under the impression that buying and selling of Lindens ONLY occurred between residents.

Greenie Lane · January 8, 2013

Like i sayed before , its like politic, 1000 people , 1000 diffrent ideas, and before you know you must defend youre own ideas or words you type , a club fan want land inside the club, a renter want people past the stores, and someone else prefer a club with nothing at all, etc etc , but before i be here in a hot discussion and must go defend my own ideas i prefer more to work on my own store in world have a happy SL all

Dillon Levenque · January 8, 2013

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Now i think you should ask yourself the right questions : why merchants are bored to rent small stores in mall ? Do you work some hours daily to bring your renters an acceptable

real

traffic ? And what about customers preferences ? what about the horrible lag in almost all the mall i ever visited ? what about the soul of every store since they all look the same no matter they sell 50's style clothes or japanese make up ?

Honnestly, its not a bad news at all for me to see that people leave the anonymus malls without any soul and prefer now mainstores with their own soul.

Even when there is a lil lag on my land, people usually enjoy visiting my store. I keep it small, comfy, welcoming. i delete old items sometimes to keep the number of my vendors not too big so pp can search easily. Im often there to welcome them and help them if they need.

I really dont think im an exception. i belong maybe to a smaller kind of merchant category but still, this one exist.

This ^^ I MUCH prefer this type of unique shopping experience to malls.

I had much the same thought when I read that comment. Even when I come across a new merchant/creator whose stuff I like, I've gotten in the habit of finding their mainstore to really look. Mainstores always have a better selection and they often have a bit of a theme. Most malls have the theme 'Mall'. Not my thing, in RL or in SL. There are exceptions; I remember a mall that was good for costumes because they had anime, cosplay, science fiction, and fantasy related stores all clustered together.

This is only a theory, but I do have a theory that might be at least one explanation for dwindling sales. The 'old days' that I see frequently mentioned seem to be in the 2006-2007 range. I started in September of '08 so I wasn't here then, but from the history I've read that period saw a huge increase in SL's population, meaning a whole lot of new people were on the grid. I know when I was new, everything I saw looked terrific. To say I was indiscriminate in my shopping choices would be a massive understatement. If all those 2006/2007 new people were anything like me, it would have been a great time to own a store.

It's quite possible that the percentage of experienced residents to newcomers is currently a great deal higher than it was in 2006/2007, and experienced residents are going to be a lot more selective in their purchases. Creators who make run of the mill things will lose business to creators who make marvelous things.

I am not saying anything at all about the worthiness of anyone in or out of this thread. But we all know that there is a wide range of quality in the items we buy in SL. That is a fact, not a theory. My theory is just that there's a higher percentage of discriminatory shoppers now than there was in six or seven years ago.

2.9k · January 8, 2013

i think Greenies point was that when costs are 0 then you dont have to act in a business like way. can just make stuff and put on the market at 0

in the beginning years of SL then this was good for linden as 0 costs (apart from 10L for unique texture uploads) allowed an explosion of content

we already reached saturation point now. is terrabytes of stuff now and more being added each day. also like Dillon said. bc is so much stuff we getting pretty picky now. but this dont stop people from keep on making stuff and putting up on the market. even if is never going to sell ever

at the moment this all paid for pretty much by tiers. tiers revenues are falling. so something have to give

min fixed fees for merchants has to come i think. sooner or later. either that or mp commissions will go up. maybe upto a minimum of 50L even (about equal 20/25c USD) maybe

the alternative is listing fees. but i dont think they work. bc you have to think about it every time you do it and it puts you off. min fixed fees work better bc you only think about it once a year or 3 months. is psychological that part

Shab Aelberts · January 8, 2013

In fact I want to tell you all also about new people ( whether copybooters or avatars with basic accounts ) they have a program to copy lot of items and they can sell them in a very cheap prices on marketplace, and one day i asked someone how they can design and sell items in cheap prices. They told me they have a program to copy and steal any kind of stuff and sell them without any problem, and they told me also if they will be banned by LL, so they can create a new avatar and join SL again and doing in same way. That's why I want LL to take more serious about this issue, and then they can change the rule to not allow any newbie to create a new store on marketplace without upgrade membership to premium, and must also to open a least one main store on SL in world.

Czari Zenovka · January 8, 2013

Shab Aelberts wrote:

In fact I want to tell you all also about new people ( whether copybooters or avatars with basic accounts ) they have a program to copy lot of items and they can sell them in a very cheap prices on marketplace, and one day i asked someone how they can design and sell items in cheap prices. They told me they have a program to copy and steal any kind of stuff and sell them without any problem, and they told me also if they will be banned by LL, so they can create a new avatar and join SL again and doing in same way. That's why I want LL to take more serious about this issue, and then they can change the rule to not allow any newbie to create a new store on marketplace without upgrade membership to premium, and must also to open a least one main store on SL in world.

This idea was recently debated on the Merchant sub-forum and, as here, received mixed responses. I will add that, although I agree it is easier for botters to sell items on the MP, believe it or not, especially years ago, botters would open up in world stores (or usually a mall space - this isn't a mall rant, just that they would rent some relatively inexpensive space vs. setting up their own mainstore) and sell the stolen goods, then leave that location, create a new alt, rinse/repeat.

As expressed in this thread there are a myriad reasons why in world sales may or may not be dwindling but to put the blame on only one area is a bit short-sighted.

Theresa Tennyson · January 8, 2013

Shab Aelberts wrote:

In fact I want to tell you all also about new people ( whether copybooters or avatars with basic accounts ) they have a program to copy lot of items and they can sell them in a very cheap prices on marketplace, and one day i asked someone how they can design and sell items in cheap prices. They told me they have a program to copy and steal any kind of stuff and sell them without any problem, and they told me also if they will be banned by LL, so they can create a new avatar and join SL again and doing in same way. That's why I want LL to take more serious about this issue, and then they can change the rule to not allow any newbie to create a new store on marketplace without upgrade membership to premium, and must also to open a least one main store on SL in world.

It's entirely possible to have an in-world store where you sell copybotted merchandise too. In fact, I know of one where the copybotting is so obvious that the merchandise still shows the name of the original designer on it. And this is at a mall that I imagine you are very, very familiar with.

Pierre Ceriano · January 12, 2013

Hello everyone and thank you all for bringing your opinion on the sensitive subject : Marketplace / Inworld shop. I will only give my own opinion. I understand and respect the opinions of others. I just feel that the behavior of some, the casualness of others and the lack of decision-making of LL (on this point), are sawing off the branch on which we already are in balance.

[0 - Sorry in advance for my bad English, I try to do my best ^^]

1 - I both manage a MarketPlace and an inworld shop. I consider this is a sign of respect for my customers that offer them to see some of my products rezzed on the game. I also consider that it would be unacceptable behavior on my part to save dough on Marketplace without participating financially in the game itself. Do not forget that LL puts at our disposal a free tool : that will be ethically unacceptable to enrich yourself without giving the game counterparty.

2 - I have a MarketPlace store because it is a way to be largely known.

3 - I also consider that selling low cost items on the MarketPlace without having an inworld activity (and so costs) causes severe distortion of competition.

4 - The notion of "distortion of competition" should be taken into great consideration by the LL as it is a legal notion.

5 - If LL wants the return of the ingame trafic, they will have to take in consideration the commercial side of this distortion and act in favor of inworld shopkeepers. As some other things to do but off present topic.

6 - I globaly feel like Shab about this probelm but I disegree with the idea of being membership to get a MarketPlace

7 - My idea is : NO INWORLD SHOP = NO MARKETPLACE STORE. Should develop the details of the setting up but if some of you want to lobby about this way or such a way like, i would join or create the movement.

As i already have good contact with known and emerging disigners, do not hesitate to contact me inworld

Warm regards

Pierre Ceriano

Dillon Levenque · January 13, 2013

Pierre, I am not, never have been, and at least in the near future will not be a creator or a merchant. I doubt I'd feel any differently about this even if that weren't the case, but I did want to make myself clear.

You desire that a Marketplace presence should have an inworld store as a prerequisite. Sorry. Not going to happen. That's like saying Amazon shouldn't sell things on the internet unless they open a store (or I guess stores everywhere they sell stuff). As far as that goes, the idea that MP is even a new feature is incorrect; it's been pointed out in this thread that XStreet existed before MP.

Marketplace provides a method for creators to show and sell their products. It may be that the more creators MP attracts, the less demand there will be for stores inworld. As a consuming resident I don't have much of a stake in that either way: LL would presumably be able to choose the method that produces the most income, and as long as LL is making money their strategy is jake with me.

LL is not here to protect you from competition. LL is here to make money. If you make money because of LL, good for you, but there's no reason at all to expect LL to help you.

Wishwel · January 13, 2013

I read this topic with mixed feelings, how come people always go in straight defend or attack and not see the middle way.

The way I read it is not a attack to marketplace or his users, but a defend to keep in world game alive, wish if IM right, a income for LL to.

The people I see here are trying to keep the balance between both , what's the use of a marketplace when there is no in world game anymore??? And that's a matter for lindenlab to, I don't think they want see people move over to other worlds since sim be there lots cheaper, but they still miss out the people that hang around there, but they can move over fast and easy .

Yes lindenlab takes commission of marketplace sales but what's the different in commission with a 10 linden dollar item or a 1000 linden dollar item, a big different.

So if they go raise the % of that than only the big sellers pay for it and not the smalls

I saw a note before , all fair for all that want try to sell on marketplace , but like someone sayed before to, it wouldn't be more as normal to do some input , so that's a list with people that only want make money but not want invest in the game, yes ok i invest i spend few linden dollars to buy a full perm mesh dress with shoes but thats all.

Im a carpenter but I not go buy a hammer, IM not crazy duh why do I need a hammer?

But I need server space to bring my items on marketplace, I need a sand box to build or to rezz them, and that I all get for free, yes for free, so if i make some money hooray, than it wouldn't be more as normal i pay some rent to and if its not in world, ( because marketplace is great to shop ) than pay rent on a server bit to cover my 10 linden dollar boxes ,

and if my business seems successful i rent a bigger place and a bigger , or i give up and go play in world ( if there still are nice places to hangout)

Qie Niangao · January 13, 2013

Kenbro Utu wrote:

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

LL is not in the business of making sure you make a profit either. They are a business that is concerned with their own bottom line. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't making more money off MP commissions than they would from tiers from in world stores.

Do they make any real money off the MP commissions (cash buys aside)? I have wondered about this often. I was under the impression that any time Lindens are paid to LL they were said to be seen as a sink. Does LL sell Lindens back to residents on the Exchange? I was also under the impression that buying and selling of Lindens ONLY occurred between residents.

The Lab has sold L$s on the LindeX for as long as there's been a LindeX. They used to publish statistics about it. I suspect that the way it works is that "Supply Linden" always has a sell order on the LindeX just below the target L$ exchange rate to prevent the L$ from getting too valuable. (AFAIK, LL never buys L$s, so the sinks must be more than adequate judging by the rock-steady exchange rate.)

That doesn't mean they're really making money on the MP commissions, however. The commissions are just absurdly too low, in stark contrast to other "app store" types of online markets.

I imagine Marketplace brings in enough to keep the servers powered-up and the cost of a part-time contractor to occasionally maintain the software, but I can't see it being any significant revenue.

Syo Emerald · January 13, 2013

I don't spend my time in inworld shops anyway and I always saw giant malls not as something doing a favor for the world. Also people tend to be busy when running around a shoppingcenter, it won't make the world more vivid by just pushing people into stores. Thats like removing all private homes, because people should hang out in public places.

Pierre Ceriano · January 13, 2013

Dillon, I completely understand your thinking and I know an idea like mine will struggle to make a place. Except if it is relayed by numerous and influential designers, I'm not influential, but I have not had this idea alone either

The idea NO SHOP INGAME = NO MARKETPLACE STORE has three advantages :

1 / It does not prevent residents to shop on the MP, including exclusively on the MP if they wish,

2 / It rebalances the competition by eliminating traders who want enrich commercially without investing in the game,

3 / Finally it is beneficial for LL (and all players) keeping the traffic and the number of sims.

This idea made its way into the minds of many colleagues designers of mines, others will join us, the door is wide open.

Pierre

Pierre Ceriano · January 13, 2013

Wishwel, I fully understand your argument and I myself am tired at the mere thought of shopping (IRL and SL), especially when you add the fact of being a man ...

But shopkeepers are not all gathered in commercial galleries on sims that only offer it. Many sims appointed to the promenade, theaters, jazz clubs, etc., offer shops for rent. At least to call themselves Rockefeller, most sim owners need to have income of merchants to maintain a place originally scheduled for leisure.

It is necessary have a complete view of the virtual economy, and this is complex but fascinating. Isn't it ?

Pierre

Syo Emerald · January 13, 2013

I was on some sims with attached shopping malls, but sadly, the concept wasn't well made at all. Most malls are not made in a beautiful way and just look fast-builded. Most are also too big, so that it takes time for everything to rezz to have no lag when walking. Also because of the big size, I get a bit frustrated, because my intentions mostly are to enter a certain place and not walking 5 minutes trough overprized stores offering stuff I don't want now.

It can make sense, if its build in a nice way, not to big and fits the rest of the sim well. Like having a roleplayregion and offering stores for clothing and items that can be used within the sim or are already popular brands in certain roleplay settings. Maybe adding a low priced store to fit the newcomers too.

Pamela Galli · January 13, 2013

I am all for the idea that you should own some bit of land before you can list on marketplace, as a deterrant to those who now have no deterrant to listing items illegally. Yes, they can go get alt after alt but are they going to get Premium account after Premium account too? Probably not.

Right now, LL does nothing whatsoever that might betray any kind of "favoritism" towards original creators over illegal resellers. They are impartial.

If past experience is any indication, it will be a cold day in hell before any action of this sort is taken.

Dillon Levenque · January 14, 2013

You said three points, in fact you had one and one only. The first thing about residents being able to shop on MP has nothing whatever to do with your suggestion. We can shop there now. Whether your idea takes root or not has nothing to do with that. It isn't part of your plan or anything to do with your plan.

The third item was that it's beneficial for LL to keep traffic high and the number of sims high. Maybe. Maybe not. It's beneficial for LL to earn money. If they collect a whole bunch of tier from a whole bunch of sims AND those tier-paying sim residents are able to keep making the rent because they benefit from all the traffic, then yes, your statement is true. I am not at all sure that is the case, even though it would seem to be an obvious truth. Second Life is not growing much right now. People aren't flocking in here in huge numbers and staying. Who's to say it might not be in LL's best interest to reduce their server expenditure? Not me, that's for sure: I haven't a clue. I am not convinced anyone else, including you, does either.

Your second point is the one that catches my eye every time I see it. Why should LL balance competition? No, really. Why? They didn't take any money from you to get you to come here. They didn't sign a contract with you. You saw a way to make some money in this virtual world. Presumably your business sense and creativity allowed that to happen, and bully for you, but LL owes you nothing.

Between this post and my last Pamela Galli commented that anyone listing on MP should be a landowner, or at least a potential landowner (meaning a Premium or other account with a real ID and payment information). To that I heartily agree: as a consumer I'd at least like to know the person I'm giving my Lindens too has some kind of accountability. I don't see any need why that person should have to open an inworld store, though.

Edited because posting ate my paragraphs and made it a wall of text even worse than it already was.

Pierre Ceriano · January 14, 2013

Your second point is the one that catches my eye every time I see it. Why should LL balance competition? No, really. Why? They didn't take any money from you to get you to come here. They didn't sign a contract with you. You saw a way to make some money in this virtual world. Presumably your business sense and creativity allowed that to happen, and bully for you, but LL owes you nothing.

Well...

1/ First fact - Private estate régions june 2010 : 25000 ; last week : 20911 ; today : 20835. Several studies have demonstrated the link between the explosion of the Marketplace and the decline of the number of régions.

2/ Second fact - LL does not ask for money to register but it asks to stay (merchants), except if you choose Premium membership by yourself. Whether the game (fees) or on the Marketplace (commissions). This is not a criticism, but an observation. And I am completely satisfied.

3/ Third fact - YES, we all sign a contract with LL. It is called TOS. Point 13.3 "This Agreement and the referenced Policies are the entire understanding between us".

I confirm that LL must focus, a way or another to balance Marketplace and inworld shop. Not just to please me or because I expected something. Simply because this is one of the elements that can allow the game to continue. Second Life is a virtual game with an Internet sales platform, not the reverse. The priority must be given to the game and not the MarketPlace. This is my opinion and I will not give up, because I like this game as a player before appreciate it as a merchant.

Warm regards

Pierre

2.9k · January 15, 2013

Pierre Ceriano wrote:

1/ First fact - Private estate régions june 2010 : 25000 ; last week : 20911 ; today : 20835.

Several studies have demonstrated

the link between the

explosion

of

the

Marketplace

and the decline of the number of

régions

.

there hasnt been any studies on this. there has just been lots of opinions expressed in forums and blog posts that correlation equal causation

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in shop rentals. then causation equal marketplace

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in home rentals. then causation equal linden homes

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in roleplays. then causation equal tiers to dam high

if talk to a SL baron who also a baron on IMVU and a whole bunch of other worlds/games as well then causation equal realworld economy

Pierre Ceriano · January 15, 2013

I'm not here to make a long list of articles and studies which I think, because I'm not the kind to keep lists. I confirm that deny the correlation between the decline in regions and the uncontrolled growth of the Marketplace is a naive and dangerous approach.

This is a brand new news, in addition to many other : How to Stop SL Land Loss: Require Land Ownership to Sell Lots of Items in the SL Marketplace

This is not because the heat can not be seen that it does not exist :matte-motes-asleep-2:

Pierre

Wishwel · January 15, 2013

16 wrote:

there hasn't been any studies on this. There has just been lots of opinions expressed in forums and blog posts that correlation equal causation

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in shop rentals. Then causation equal marketplace

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in home rentals. Then causation equal linden homes

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in roleplays. Then causation equal tiers to dam high

if talk to a SL baron who also a baron on IMVU and a whole bunch of other worlds/games as well then causation equal realtor economy

Maby better call it experiences with sim owners and store renters.......

I do read between all lines from all people that do disagree or bounce back on the subject , don't get the topic starters wrong, they not want stop marketplace, they only want try to get a option to keep parts in SL.

Shure more Sims will fall down, but they want try to find a solution before it totally falls down.

I have the idea that its same as always, we have marketplace users that not pay 1 linden , and they will fight hard to keep them sales and the stores for free, but please people realise yourself that there always be need a IN world Game to sell any item.

And a quote to Dillan, where she ask Why would LL help you.................whel why wouldn't they? We play the game proberly more as them , we see what happens to, and arnt we suppose to be open for all suggestions and ideas?

I know its always do's and don's and yes and no, like greenie sayed before, its like politic,

2.9k · January 15, 2013

about having to have a inworld shop as well as a marketplace shop. this works for a baron who rents shop space

what works for linden tho financially is not necessarily what best works for a shop rentals baron

what would work best for linden is to sell Merchant accounts directly. marketplace shop and tier included in the bundle

+

a tier bundle don't work well at all for private estate barons. but is the most likely option linden would take. on a must have basis

is one of them be careful what you wish for moments I think. if you an estate shop rentals baron

linden dont equate parcels to shops. linden equate tiers to shops

2.9k · January 15, 2013

Wishwel wrote:

16 wrote:

there hasn't been any studies on this. There has just been lots of opinions expressed in forums and blog posts that correlation equal causation

if talk to a SL baron who specialize in shop rentals.then causation equal marketplace