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Study: Virtual Women Show Twice as Much 'Skin' as Men


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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Baloney. The vast majority of clothing available on MP and in SL is in fact tramp wear. Yes, it's not too hard to find stuff you like that is NOT slutty, but if one just goes to MP and shops, one gets for the most part clothing that would be inappropriate in RL. I give you the first page of Apparel>Women's>Women's Tops>Sweaters>L$100-L$500
. There's like one or two things on that page you could wear to the grocery store.

To tell someone that if she's finding tramp wear it is because that's what she's looking for is not only insulting, it's total BS. Instead, you might have given her some search suggestions. Mine would be to just keep looking at stuff you like and build up a list of shops that work for you.

from my experience of shopping myself..

i believe there is plenty on the market of both..but because there is an overflow of one doesn't mean there isn't plenty of the other..

i think because there is so much that would fall in the one over exposed area..that it dwarfs the one where there is plenty..

you might have to look just a bit more for it..but it's there..

my inventory is the cursing bottomless pit of proof for me..the never ending pit of fashion that has stocked up so high that i will never be able to wearthem all..but just had to have them anyways hehehehe

because it's shopping and that's our calling..To Shop Hard hehehehe

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

om my experience of shopping myself..

i believe there is plenty on the market of both..but because there is an overflow of one doesn't mean there isn't plenty of the other..

i think because there is so much that would fall in the one over exposed area..that it dwarfs the one where there is plenty..

you might have to look just a bit more for it..but it's there..

my inventory is the cursing bottomless pit of proof for me..the never ending pit of fashion that has stocked up so high that i will never be able to wearthem all..but just had to have them anyways hehehehe

because it's shopping and that's our calling..To Shop Hard hehehehe

 

I agree completely. There IS a lot of actual everyday (but attractive) clothing available. I took issue with the suggestion that finding a lot of trampish clothes indicated a desire for trampish clothes.

I have plently of trampish clothing in my inventory, and I wear it when I'm in the mood. I just like also having stuff that would pass at a PTA meeting. I do find that when I'm looking for a shirt or sweater that does not assume I only wish to button it at the navel, Men's works better than Women's. On the other hand I fit into Men's clothing a lot better than you do ;-).

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aikawaiix wrote:

Lack of selection in the marketplace, i often have a hard time trying to find even the simplest style of tops. Which don't give the illusion of my avatars chest area hanging all out, or finding the right pair of jeans which don't expose underwear. Or even leave my midriff completely on show.  A lot of the fashions and mostly popular styles, are designed to create an overtly sexual avatar look. More variety for everyone’s taste would sooner fix the problem. I also feel like i'm lying to myself as well, whenever i end up having to wear one or two of those items, i don’t dress provocatively in rl to go to shops to get a carton of milk or see friends, so would not really have my avatar dress that way either. 

just have to filter the search a bit more on the top boxes and on the side

attach to this post i will put 3 pic examples on the simple keywords: top - skirt - dress in General and filters on the side

can see that apart from the top Larry made for the daughter he dont have (: then they all pretty ok. is some tummys in some but overall they ok

about the tummys. can go to Jane inworld. Jane has some free romper suits in many colors on all layers that you can get for free. can wear under your other stuff which help really well with exposed tummies if you want. they corset bodice style on the on the top so no shoulder straps or deep cleavage. so can wear with a ballgown and keep all your lady bits covered up properly

 +

edit: Jane = Janie Marlow

edit again: (:

jane also got matching tights in same colours and materials. they not free tho. but can wear with short skirts as well and look quite nice that way also

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Baloney. The vast majority of clothing available on MP and in SL is in fact tramp wear. Yes, it's not too hard to find stuff you like that is NOT slutty, but if one just goes to MP and shops, one gets for the most part clothing that would be inappropriate in RL. I give you the first page of Apparel>Women's>Women's Tops>Sweaters>L$100-L$500
. There's like one or two things on that page you could wear to the grocery store.

To tell someone that if she's finding tramp wear it is because that's what she's looking for is not only insulting, it's total BS. Instead, you might have given her some search suggestions. Mine would be to just keep looking at stuff you like and build up a list of shops that work for you.

@Dillon, Thank you hun, and i'm sure from anyone else. Who has noticed the same popular ongoing tramp wear trend, and also mentioned their same findings here. 

 

If possible, i would love and appreciate it. If you could share a list of the names of the creators, or of the stores which you buy from with us all? I'm not sure why i seem to have trouble or anyone who has stated the same. But I would also love to be able to dress according to what I’m comfortable with. As I’m sure a lot of the other responders to this topic would, who mentioned their trouble with marketplace shopping.

I usually do a lot of Shopping in sl as i own a second life fashion blog. In fact it's a huge part of my sl use. Often spending anything of up to 10000L at a time in batch orders a day. yet yes, from what I’ve experienced. And also in using search terms relating to what i want. And even extending to google search terms as of recently. (stating secondlife, then the item of clothing i'm looking for) 

I still am unable to find what I’m looking for, I have a better chance at finding the styles i like. via flickr page browsing and the use of other Sl fashion blogs. Then use of the marketplace searches or browsing alone. Also given that i like to be 

able to buy well detailed, and carefully designed clothing. I figure if I’m paying rl money for it, it had 

might as well look good to wear.

 

@ Coby I have that jacket in two colours, and another style similar by another designer. Some makers do cater, 

but not all. From what I’ve always noticed since the start of my sl use. There’s still more for the option of showing 

skin, then there is to not.

 

@ 16 Thank you for the first screencap Meli imako is one designer of a handful of whom i do shop from. The sea hole also, DeeTaleZ i have brought from, mostly tops as there is a good selection of long sleeved tops. Only five of the good seven i have brought from this same maker, to wear on my avatars shape show her chest area a lot more than i would personally like to see. Only today was i dressed in a bodysuiti brought by that same creator, and had placed a mesh sweater on top not being satisfied enough with the outcome.

The second and third screen caps don't however show anything to my personal taste and liking.

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yw

can take a while to find just the right thing when is zillions of things available

the screen caps that i showed was just what came up on the first page when i enter the search and filter criteria. i was not looking for anything in particular. just enter simple one word keyword to show what comes up on them 

if narrow the search criteria then will get even more closer to what you want specifically

also

if look can see that i sort by Best Selling. is quite important that if you got a blog. just to know whats hot and whats not as far as the buying customers go

is true that people tend to follow fashion trends most times. but sometimes they dont and buy counter-trend just bc they can. so i try to understand that myself when it do happen

 

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My personal wardrobe consists of everything from very conservative clothes for business wear to some very sexy clothes and everything in between.. I think the sexy stuff is easier to find because it is more popular.  But I only had a hard time finding conservative clothing in my early days of SL,  Now days it is commonly available.

One thing no one has mentioned is that I think the evolution of tramp wear has something to do with the way clothing was made in SL until the recent introduction of mesh.  First, system clothes are of course painted on the avatar and therefore look very tight fitting, way more so than normal RL clothes are.  Secondly, when I first came to SL it was the norm that clothes came on one layer.  It wasn't until I was here a few years that you could buy a shirt that came on all layers and it wasn't until a few years later that you could wear multiple items on the same layer and the tattoo layer was introduced.  So with early clothing the first layer, under shirt and panties, were reserved for lingerie or tattoos.  The shirt and pants layer were for the first layer of street clothes, and the jacket layer pretty much was only used for jackets or things worn over a shirt. A shirt layer stops higher on the midriff than a shirt in RL.  This forces a designer to use a lower body layer or a jacket layer to make a shirt that is long as most RL shirts are.  It is not easy matching an upper layer to a lower layer seamlessly, especially for new designers,  So I think many designers just accepted the limitation and designed clothes that intentionally exposed the midriff area. So right from the start SL clothes were 'sexier' than RL clothes, intended or not, and evolved from there.

I also agree that women feel free to dress sexier in SL because there is no danger of physical abuse, we can have perfect skin and bodes, and it is more the norm here.  I think if we are honest we all have to admit we've seen pictures of a sexy little dress on a perfect body model in RL mags and wished we could wear it too, but can't because of 'flaws' in RL bodies and local norms.  That doesn't apply in SL.

You local RL cultural norms play a big part too in what you may find acceptable.  Dillon, you said that the link to the sweaters page showed that "There's like one or two things on that page you could wear to the grocery store.".  I looked at that page and would not have thought about twice seeing any of the clothing there in my local grocery store, with the only exception being the bikini under the hoodie in the one ad.  But even then I've seen women in the summer wearing bikinisunder sheer 'cover-ups' stopping on the way home from the pool to pick up dinner and no one thinks twice about it.

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Interesting study, Perrie.

If women don't also show more 'skin' than men in real life, I'd say safety is one major factor; whether it's statistically true that it increases danger of being raped, all women are told there is a connection, and some rape defenses in the past have used clothing as an excuse. Permutations of that are still found in other countries. I remember a rape law in Italy not too long ago that said any woman wearing jeans couldn't have been raped because they are too hard to remove. 

But there is a lot about growing up female that cannot be parsed or studied, or defined so easily. (I'm sure that's also true of growing up male, but I can't speak to that.) I don't know that men grow up with the same feeling of being vulnerable everywhere they go. It's ironic to me that oftne, the same cultures that put the responsibility on such crimes on women, and have them cover up more, have the worst laws protecting women in such circumstances. Sorry to rant a bit on a real life topic but the study does mention real life.

But I do not see a real life parallel in virtual worlds as to covering up or not covering up due to a feeling of vulnerability.

I think the reasoning is different in a virtual world. There, wearing skimpy clothing can be about getting attention, or role playing, or feeling young again, or feeling wild again, or feeling wild for the first time anywhere, or simply for the fun of it. As Amethyst mentioned, women see photos of the 'ideal' wearing clothing the woman doesn't feel she would look as good in in real life. But in Second Life she can look as good as she wants to (or can afford to.)

Second Life is more about fantasy for many people. There are various types of fantasies. Sometimes people can work out something they are struggling with in real life by acting out their Second Life fantasy. That might include dressing skimpy or 'trampy' or being 'someone else' for a while. I remember topics in which a woman who claimed to be a real life high paid prostitute, said that in Second Life, she dressed like a dowdy librarian and enjoyed NOT being hit on. 

Now that might be an interesting study.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

Baloney. The vast majority of clothing available on MP and in SL is in fact tramp wear. Yes, it's not too hard to find stuff you like that is NOT slutty, but if one just goes to MP and shops, one gets for the most part clothing that would be inappropriate in RL. I give you the first page of Apparel>Women's>Women's Tops>Sweaters>L$100-L$500
. There's like one or two things on that page you could wear to the grocery store.

To tell someone that if she's finding tramp wear it is because that's what she's looking for is not only insulting, it's total BS. Instead, you might have given her some search suggestions. Mine would be to just keep looking at stuff you like and build up a list of shops that work for you.

Scarily, i have seen most of those items worn in my local grocery store.

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Melita Magic wrote:

Interesting study, Perrie.

If women don't also show more 'skin' than men in real life, I'd say safety is one major factor; whether it's statistically true that it increases danger of being raped, all women are told there is a connection, and some rape defenses in the past have used clothing as an excuse. Permutations of that are still found in other countries.

Personal safety is an issue for everyone, and I know for women there is this additional issue.  It is a subject of continuous discussion.  No one, Male or Female, wants to be the victim of a violent crime.

 


Melita Magic wrote:

 

 I remember a rape law in Italy not too long ago that said any woman wearing jeans couldn't have been raped because they are too hard to remove. 


It isn't a "law."  It was an appeal courts decision based on the facts in evidence regarding a verdict.

In my opinion, the Judges who reversed that conviction should have all been strung up by their testicles.

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Melita Magic wrote:

OK, thank you for the correction. I must've confused the article in my memory, because past verdicts can be argued to win future cases. 

Unfortunately it does establish a legal precedent.  One that now needs to be addressed by Italian law makers.

People should be able to dress as pleases them with out fear of UNWANTED attention.

But on the other extreme, if you crawl in bed with me butt naked, it will be very hard for me not to jump to a certain conclusion.

 

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angiewolf wrote:

wow. Usually your answers upset me. But that was really good. And i agree. Btw. Scantily dressed at k.o.p. Just means more running and chasing (which is the point) i bet a lot of sims encourage scant clothing in a very similar way.

Not sure what in my answers would upset you.  I am pretty clear about my position(s).

I abhor violence and abuse.

That being said I believe that two consenting adults have the right to engage in any activity they may choose, both virtually and in real life, short of actual physical harm in RL even if I disagree with said activities.

 

ETA, to clarify my position.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

Baloney. The vast majority of clothing available on MP and in SL is in fact tramp wear. Yes, it's not too hard to find stuff you like that is NOT slutty, but if one just goes to MP and shops, one gets for the most part clothing that would be inappropriate in RL. I give you the first page of Apparel>Women's>Women's Tops>Sweaters>L$100-L$500
. There's like one or two things on that page you could wear to the grocery store.

Scarily, i have seen most of those items worn in my local grocery store.

 

LOL. In fact the page contents jump around a bit; when I first linked it there was at least one outfit that had 'bandaid pasties'.

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With a fashion blog you probably have a better list than I do :-). I would have suggested The Sea Hole, which you already know about. Mon Tissu is another good one. I have some stuff from DeeTaleZ too. There truly is a huge range of clothing types out there, but you have to do a lot more looking to find conservative stuff.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

LOL. In fact the page contents jump around a bit; when I first linked it there was at least one outfit that had 'bandaid pasties'.

is maybe a good thing is lots of bandaid pasties available. after search on GMA for a while you need them to stick over your eyes

q;  (:

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Melita Magic wrote:

OK, thank you for the correction. I must've confused the article in my memory, because past verdicts can be argued to win future cases. 

Unfortunately it does establish a legal precedent.  One that now needs to be addressed by Italian law makers.

People should be able to dress as pleases them with out fear of UNWANTED attention.

But on the other extreme, if you crawl in bed with me butt naked, it will be very hard for me not to jump to a certain conclusion.

 

Yeah, no one's talking about someone crawling into bed naked with someone else, but just walking around in a public place dressed in, say, a halter and mini dress. And to your other post, I did include both groups, I never said only women are subjects of violence. But were you implying that when it comes to 'showing skin' in public, which is the topic of this thread, so that's what I was addressing in specific, when it comes to that, are you implying that males are in as much danger as females from showing more skin in public? 

Because that was what I was addressing. Please don't make it sound as if I left men out because I didn't. But I do not think men are going to be raped or are raped because they went topless or wore short shorts. But there have been too many rape cases to count in which a woman wearing a short dress or something low cut was used against her in court. And no offense meant but that's the type of thing one might have to have grown up female to have a real deep sense of.

In short I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to state that no one wants to be the target of violence. Did I say otherwise? I was talking about skimpy clothing and its ramifications in real life. It was pertinent here because that's a reason women mostly do not dress skimpily in public in real life. 

Of course there are exceptions to everything above, including the fact that of course males do suffer sexual abuse and rape as well. But I don't know of a case in which clothing was used as an excuse in court. Somehow it's only women who get blamed for how they dress.

Your statement about "jumping to a conclusion" - I'm also wondering about, yes you can think what you want about it, if someone crawled into bed beside you; but even in a relationship, or marriage, even if two people are naked, rape can happen according to the law. I do realize that some states do not have that law but it's a controversy some are trying to amend. For instance, if someone isn't right emotionally or lacks the understanding of an adult, and is naked, and cold, and crawls in beside someone else, they have the right to remain as they are. You don't seem to be saying otherwise, but it does seem to imply you understand why rape would happen in that circumstance.

People either understand that rape means unwanted sexual acts or they do not. There are no exceptions to that and no excuses to cover it if it happened. Rape isn't only a stranger with a knife in a dark alley jumping on a nun or girl scout. It's happened to babies and to people in nursing homes. That in itself should make clear it's more about opportunity and sociopathy than about how anyone dressed that morning.

 

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


kattatonia Wickentower wrote:

Yes they do.  I can't speak for all women but i have a couple of ideas about why that is the case. 

1) Virtual Women do not have to fear that they will be raped no matter how scantily dressed they are.

2) Virtual Women can make their shapes look exactly as they want them to appear.

I'm curious if you read the study. 

I'm also surprised that you would bring up what is the penultimate in the objectification of women here.  We could bring up the whole issue of emotional abuse that can and does happen in SL.  But I hope this thread does not side track to focus on just this issue.

I guess I'd have to ask around all the women I know in SL to find out if it is really the freedom from this fear that is a or the primary reason they dress so scantily.   I seriously doubt that is it though.

For many it comes down to being able to do what RL doesn't allow them (men and women both). Here, both climate, law, and social customs (which are reflected in the law and vice versa, dictated centuries ago by the church) make being (nearly) naked next to impossible most of the year and in most places. Yet whenever possible people (men and women both) flock to where it is allowed. The few beaches are packed when the sun is out and it's above freezing, in good weather nude beaches are hard to reach because of the crowds trying to get there.

Those people aren't there to swim or (mostly) show off, they're there to get away from the restriction of the dress codes that are enforced upon them by law, employers, church, and families who demand you're "decent" (meaning no more than a few inches of skin may show).

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In regards to men, they too dress differently in SL than in RL and show off more.  It is common to see a guy going around without a shirt when normally they wouldn't in RL.  They also wear ripped jeans or even chaps that show more than they'd ever show in RL and very low slung jeans with or without open flies that don't leave much to the imagination with some even coming with a 'package'.  I''ve seen American men in thongs too quite commonly on beaches and in clubs etc. and have had a number of them tell me they wouldn't be caught dead in one RL.  I say American because I know that thongs are standard beach wear for men in a lot of other countries.

Given this, it makes me wonder how many sims they actually visited (I didn't see a number but may have missed it) and what the ratings of them were, and if the results would be far different if it were repeated by going to a lot more sims, or even different sims.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

With a fashion blog you probably have a better list than I do :-). I would have suggested The Sea Hole, which you already know about. Mon Tissu is another good one. I have some stuff from DeeTaleZ too. There truly is a huge range of clothing types out there, but you have to do a lot more looking to find conservative stuff.

Agree, I do like to shop at Mon Tissu quite a lot :matte-motes-smile:. And is actually where i brought one of the trench coats i mentioned earlier. For me i think one of the best sl clothes creators which caters well. Along with Maitreya, ISON, Tulip, Cold logic, & Happy Pencil for shirts. I methodically organize my inventory by Item and creators so do have a good list. But it wouldn’t hurt to see more variety here and there. Given that you do, as you mentioned have to search a lot more than necessary, than If say.  Searching for something less conservative to wear. 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

To tell someone that if she's finding tramp wear it is because that's what she's looking for is not only insulting, it's total BS. Instead, you might have given her some search suggestions. Mine would be to just keep looking at stuff you like and build up a list of shops that work for you.

In life people often find what they are really looking for, even if its not what they want to believe it is what they are seeking. I know this offends many, and people tend to lash out when their assumptions/perceptions get challenged, but if one id not finding what one 'wants', it is often best to change what one is looking for. That's advice that comes from seeing the dating habits of my mother and siblings... and seeing 3 of them end up with repeatedly abusive relationships... But we all wear filters that can make this quite difficult at times.

 

I believe 16's screenshots just after your post illustrated my original point quite clearly. It did not seem to complex for her to find either.

In the link you provided, maybe it has changed since you linked it, but right now most of it is conservative in cut. Some of the models are wearing just panties and the sweater - so that is not what I might wear going down to the shop, but the tops would be find but for maybe 1 or 2. Some like the halter sweaters are meant to have a shirt worn underneath - and in 'RL' I see that all the time. It'd get kinda itchy with those wool ones not having a shirt under. :P

Its pretty common in 'fashion' to see models wearing the product and then not much else - to sell the product or highlight the product. Competing theories on selling the item: highlight just the item and use the body of the model to 'sex sell' it versus show the product in a composition of clothing to let the customer see how it might fit into her daily life in normal wear.

- So you can look at a MP ad, and I can look at it. And if its a sweater, and the sweater is normal; but the model is wearing panties, pasties, and a lolipop... we might judge that sweater differently, if we judge it by 'how that model is' versus 'how it would look on me and my wardrobe.'

 

Frequent brands for me at present include Sakide, coldLogic, JANE (neighbor to coldLogic inworld), MAAI recently (due to holiday sale), SFW, Apple May, J.H. Couture, ::HH:: Hucci, Alexohol, SLC, and Bare Rose.

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