Avatar sizes

[Phil Deakins]

Aha! I see your point now. That hadn't occured to me. I'm off to check

All my stuff is mod and always has been 

 

ETA: Yes it does make a difference. I've adjusted the balance between leags and torso so that her crotch is the distnace from the floor as my RL one. The result is that the RL-height kitchen unit is a little higher up the body tha before but still at least about 2" to 3" lower than it should be.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

The result is that RL-sized furniture cannot be made to suit everyone because, a lot of people do use LL's V3 and would need to be taught not to use it when setting their height - and that's not going to happen. I suppose the best that a furniture creator can do is use a TPV to set his/her RL height and make furniture to suit the avatar.

 

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If furniture has modify permissions then the customer can increase/decrease the size as preferred. (Talking about prims here, no idea how that works with mesh.)  Years ago I purchased furniture from a designer who built Japanese furnishings and prefab houses.  There were a couple pieces I purchased from that store that I stretched to make them a bit larger.  That seems to be the only solution I can think of that would work for all sizes, excluding tinies which is a whole other subject.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

And why dont we have the pic of you in RL standing rigth inside a kitchen worktop lol ?

 

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Ooooooo...we can add this requirement to the contest!!!!

*Whips out my notepad and makes note of this*

[Czari Zenovka]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

but in RL, between 2 persons that have the exact same height, one can have the worktop at the hips and the other one, have the exact same worktop lower...

its a problem that happen often in rl for sinks... For some pp with same height it can be at right level, but for some others with higher legs or shorters one it can be felt as too much low or high.

 

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Very true and, until you mentioned it, I had forgotten that as well.  In clothing for women this is often an issue of a body being "short-waisted" or "long-waisted" - depending upon one's proportions.  In my case in RL I am 5'10" tall but I am "short-waisted" meaning my torso is a bit shorter; the majority of my height is in my legs.

 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

And why dont we have the pic of you in RL standing rigth inside a kitchen worktop lol ?

 

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Ooooooo...we can add this requirement to the contest!!!!

*Whips out my notepad and makes note of this*

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wooooo !! great idea !!! 

Well Phil, you wont be disapointed by this audition.. we have tons of nice ideas for you :matte-motes-evil:

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

The avatar is bare-footed. The worktop is much too low.

 

This pic shows where the worktop should be on the bare-footed RL-height avatar. But the height of the unit prim is way above the actual RL height.

 So it looks to me that SL measurements are screwed up.

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SL measurements are not screwed up - believe it or not.  Why should they be?  Meter is a meter!

For comparison here are some RL photos.

I think this lady does not complain that the sink top is too low. ↓

 

Nor this one. ↓

 

How about these? ↓

 

Here is a group of young shorter ladies in the kitchen. ↓

Everything looks all right to me in these RL photos.  Where the top of the counters reach on each person depends on their height.  For some the counter top is about the crotch level, for some it is higher.

Everything looks all right to me in the SL picture what I made.  RL measurements do work in SL perfectly.

How do you explain why my picture looks so perfect in scale?  Did I make some error?  When I rez a prim having exactly 0.89 m height next to the lower cabin in my setup, the prim is exactly the same height as the imported kitchen cabin.  The only right conclusion is: there is nothing wrong with SL meter.

 

PS.

When you check how high your RL kitchen counter reaches up to your RL body, please do it carefully.  The bottom of your crotch is not where the tip of your "ding, dong's" tip is.  You might need to lift it out of the way.    :matte-motes-big-grin:

[Czari Zenovka]

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Coby Foden wrote:

 

 

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This photo is a good approximation of what I was trying to describe of my RL kitchen.  The woman in that photo is likely a bit shorter than I am but you can see where, at my height, the bottom of the cabinet she is opening is about the same height as my shoulders.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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  Where the top of the counters reach on each person depends on their height.  For some the counter top is about the crotch level, for some it is higher.

 

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not only Coby !

There are person that have the same height and not the same proportions.. some have longer legs, some shorters and same for the torso.. so you can have 2 persons with same height but not same proportions and the counter wont be at the same level for them.

of course, you know.. pics for ads use pp on the same average model you know.. but see pp around you in real, and you'll see that for a said height pp doesnt have the same legs size..

[Phil Deakins]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The result is that RL-sized furniture cannot be made to suit everyone because, a lot of people do use LL's V3 and would need to be taught not to use it when setting their height - and that's not going to happen. I suppose the best that a furniture creator can do is use a TPV to set his/her RL height and make furniture to suit the avatar. 

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If furniture has modify permissions then the customer can increase/decrease the size as preferred. (Talking about prims here, no idea how that works with mesh.)  Years ago I purchased furniture from a designer who built Japanese furnishings and prefab houses.  There were a couple pieces I purchased from that store that I stretched to make them a bit larger.  That seems to be the only solution I can think of that would work for all sizes, excluding tinies which is a whole other subject.

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I agree.

[Phil Deakins]

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

 

And why dont we have the pic of you in RL standing rigth inside a kitchen worktop lol ?

 

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Ooooooo...we can add this requirement to the contest!!!!

*Whips out my notepad and makes note of this*

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wooooo !! great idea !!! 

Well Phil, you wont be disapointed by this audition.. we have tons of nice ideas for you :matte-motes-evil:

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Yeah, but you're all talk

[Phil Deakins]

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Coby Foden wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

The avatar is bare-footed. The worktop is much too low.

 

This pic shows where the worktop should be on the bare-footed RL-height avatar. But the height of the unit prim is way above the actual RL height.

 So it looks to me that SL measurements are screwed up.

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SL measurements are not screwed up - believe it or not.  Why should they be?  Meter is a meter!

For comparison here are some RL photos.

I think this lady does not complain that the sink top is too low. ↓

 

Nor this one. ↓

 

How about these? ↓

 

Here is a group of young shorter ladies in the kitchen. ↓

Everything looks all right to me in these RL photos.  Where the top of the counters reach on each person depends on their height.  For some the counter top is about the crotch level, for some it is higher.

Everything looks all right to me in the SL picture what I made.  RL measurements do work in SL perfectly.

How do you explain why my picture looks so perfect in scale?  Did I make some error?  When I rez a prim having exactly 0.89 m height next to the lower cabin in my setup, the prim is exactly the same height as the imported kitchen cabin.  The only right conclusion is:

there is nothing wrong with SL meter

.

 

PS.

When you check how high your RL kitchen counter reaches up to your RL body, please do it carefully.  The bottom of your crotch is not where the tip of your "ding, dong's" tip is.  You might need to lift it out of the way.  

 :matte-motes-big-grin:

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LOL. I did ignore my "ding-dong" for the purpose of measuring

The thing is, Coby, I set the avatar to my RL height. Later, when it was pointed out, I adjusted the av's torso and legs so that the crotch (without ding-dong) was at the same height on the avatar as it is on me. I made a prim kitchen unit the exact height of my RL units. The result is that the top of the RL unit is higher on my body than the top of the SL unit. After the torso/legs adjustment the difference was a little less than it was initially, but it was still significantly different. The only way I can explain it is that the RL meter and the prim meter aren't quite the same. I only did it with my own RL measurements to see how it would work out, and it didn't work out right.

I recognise that your experiments show that they are the same so I'm not arguing with you about it. I'm only posting the results that I've found. I wouldn't argue with you because I love you - you know that :smileysurprised:

Having said all that about the measurements, it probably doesn't make much difference anyway because, as has been pointed out, different people are different sizes and different proportions, etc., so making an RLish size item is probably ok for those who want RL-sized things - except for one thing - the V3 viewer. I don't think I'll do it because that bigger thing still remains - many people use LL's V3 with its wrong avatar heights, and just about everyone sets their avatar height according to the Edit shape/Appearance box, so creating for LL's viewer would cause the items to be wrong for a great many people, and creating for TPVs would also make them wrong for many people. I'll stick to my stuff all being mod, and then they can be scaled to suit

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

This pic shows where the worktop is when both the avatar and the unit are exact RL heights. The avatar is bare-footed. The worktop is much too low. The avatar height was set in Phoenix's Appearance box.

 

So it looks to me that SL measurements are screwed up.

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Phil, I made a scene with your dimensions: avatar height 1.75 m (= 5 ft 9 in).  Worktop at 0.92 m height.

Again, SL measurements are not screwed up.  They are perfect.  Both avatars in my picture would feel perfectly happy in this kitchen.  As you can see, the worktop is not too low nor too high for either one.  Even the worktop height 0.89 m (what is the standard height in my place) would work very well.

Maybe the problem is that you have used to strongly think that there is something wrong with SL dimensions - and thus you cannot see the true state of things even if they are laid in front of your eyes?  It can happen to anybody.

 

 

   I'm starting to be out of ideas how to present this dimensions matter any better what I have done so far.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I wouldn't argue with you because I love you - you know that :smileysurprised:

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Oohhh...  Phil    

[Phil Deakins]

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Coby Foden wrote:

Phil, I made a scene with your dimensions: avatar height 1.75 m (= 5 ft 9 in).  Worktop at 0.92 m height.

.

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We ae going to have to agree to differ, Coby. You are certainly right that both avatars look ok with the unit in your pic but that's not the point I've been making. What I've been saying is that, with my female avatar sized to my own (male) RL dimensions - overall height and crotch level - and with my unit sized according to my own RL unit's height, the top of the worktop is significantly different in SL than it is in RL.

RL person (me) at 5'9"

+ RL unit at 0.92 meters

= RL worktop at a certain height on my body.

SL avatar set to 5'9" with the Appearance box

+ SL unit at 0.92 meters set in the object edit box

= SL worktop significantly lower on the avatar's body.

So something is wrong.

There's no need to persuade me, Coby, and there's no need for me to persuade you. You did your tests and I did mine, and we each came to our own conclusions. So for me, something is wrong with the various built-in ways of setting measurements, and for you, nothing is wrong with them. I'm good with that. And if I could add one of those hug things that you put in your last post, I would do it

[Drake1 Nightfire]

i do not believe phoenix measures avatars correctly. I think Firestorm was updated but not Phoenix.

[Phil Deakins]

Maybe it's the Appearance box in Phoenix then. I wanted to download Firestorm today but their site wasn't responding so I couldn't get it.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

You did your tests and I did mine, and we each came to our own conclusions. So for me, something is wrong with the various built-in ways of setting measurements, and for you, nothing is wrong with them. I'm good with that.

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What comes to my mind why you get different results in RL vs SL is that even if your avatar is exactly the same height as you are in RL is that you and the avatar have different proportions.  Like the crotch hips, waist, tips of the fingers are not in the same height.  Besides comparing male body to female body does not give very accurate visual comparison.  Female body and male body have very different proportions.  Males tend to have shorter legs than females have, for example.  If you made your avatar exactly to same proportions as your RL body is you would see that things will look the same in SL and in RL.

 

1. Let's say that in SL you make a chair to RL dimensions, you make table to RL dimensions.  You put them side by side in SL, you put them side by side in RL.  You compare them visually in both worlds.  I'm sure that when you compare the RL chair to the RL table, and the SL chair to the SL table you will see that in both environments the chair and the table look the same size relative to each other.  This works, doesn't it?

 

2. Now you edit your avatar, you make it exactly to the same height and proportions as you are in RL.  You compare your RL self to the RL chair and table.  You take even photos from various angles.  Then you compare your avatar to the SL chair and table.  You take snapshots from various angles.  Next you compare the RL photos and SL snapshots.

 

I'm sure that when you compare the RL photos and SL snapshots you will see that the chair and the table will look the same ralative to each other in both worlds.  How about the avatar?  You made it exactly the same as your RL body.  Natural thing to expect is that your body in both worlds should look exactly the same relative to the furniture.  If it doesn't then something physically impossible has happened.

 

In SL the chair and the table are a collection of vertices, the vertices are joined by edges, closed edges form faces.  The dimensions of the chair and the table are mesured in meters.  What is an avatar made?  The avatar is made from exactly the same things as the chair and the table, vertices, edges, faces.  There is absolutely no difference compared to the avatar mesh and the mesh in the furniture.  SL's rendering engine sees no difference what the mesh is used for, the mesh is rendered exactly the same way in the avatar body as it is in other things.  Mesh is just mesh.  So how it would be possible that measuring the avatar mesh would yield different results than measuring the the chair and the table mesh?

 

 

PS.

I don't think SL is so "whacko" that the unit of measurement varies from user to user, so that my SL meter would be any different from any other users SL meter.  Nor so that SL meter would vary inside SL depending on what and where something is measured.

Byt the way, even Phoenix's and Firestorm's appearance editors don't show the avatar height exactly right.  To get accurate results the only way is measuring by prim - and doing it in the right pose naturally (not legs apart in T-pose, but the same way as in RL the height is measured).

[Phil Deakins]

Sorry to blow your idea about male and female differences, Coby, but the way I got the female av proprtions to be like my own was very simple. I set the av's overall height. The I stood her inside a phantom prim that was the exact height of my own crotch, and, using the Appearance editor, I adjusted her leg length, or it might have been torso length, until the crotch was in the right place. The overall height stayed the same. So, for the purpose of the tests, she was correctly proportioned; i.e. she had the right overall height and her crotch was at the right level. But there is no difference between male and female proportions when you set a female av's proportions to be identical to a male. Avatars are only genderless humanoids.

You now say that the avatar's height isn't measured very accurately in Phoenix and Firestorm. I'd already seen that the Singularity viewer shows different numbers than Phoenix or the V3. If my memory iscorrect, Singularity shows the same in meters but not the same in feet and inches. It's either that or the other ways round. You say the most accurate way is to measure an av by prims. Perhaps that's the reason why I've found inconsistency between the various measurements. I've always set the av's height in the Appearance editor, and not by comparing with a prim. But I've always said that too.

 

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

You now say that the avatar's height isn't measured very accurately in Phoenix and Firestorm. I'd already seen that the Singularity viewer shows different numbers than Phoenix or the V3. If my memory iscorrect, Singularity shows the same in meters but not the same in feet and inches. It's either that or the other ways round. You say the most accurate way is to measure an av by prims. Perhaps that's the reason why I've found inconsistency between the various measurements. I've always set the av's height in the Appearance editor, and not by comparing with a prim. But I've always said that too.

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Yes, the only exact accurate way to measure avatar's mesh height is doing it by prim.  There isn't even a formula or method in SL presently what could measure avatar's mesh height.  All those "accurate" scripted measuring HUDs and scripted prims and "accurate" viewers use the avatar's Agent Height + correction factor in aim to be able to show near the right mesh height - with varying success.

 

SL has a function for the Agent Height [llAgentHeight].  Agent Height is defined in SL, the function tells the Agent Height accurately.  Linden Lab viewer uses this Agent Height without any correction factor and shows it in the viewer - and then people wrongly think that it shows the avatar's mesh height.

What is not defined accurately is the correction factor which is added to the Agent Height to get the mesh height.  The correction factor is a "guesstimate".  Linden Lab says it's about 0.17 m, I have found that it is more closely to 0.18 m.  It might even be that for different avatar mesh heights this correction factor might no be constant, the same for all.  There lies the problem with those scripted devices and "accurate" viewers.  If the correction factor was accurate there would be no problem.  But as things are now, the only exactly accurate measurement is possible by doing it by prim.

 

(The difference in feet and inches, even though the metric value is the same in different viewers is due to how the metric measurement is converted and rounded up to imperial measurements.  If the conversion from meters was done to decimal feet, like [5.84 feet] for example,  then there would be no difference, the conversion would be exact.  However when converting from meters to feet and inches there is always some rounding done.  One inch is 25.4 mm.  And the heights are usually told in jumps of one inch, like 5'9" / 5'10" / 5'11".  That's quite a jump.)

 

I'm positive if that I measure myself in RL against the kitchen counter top, adjust my avatar's height and proportions exactly to my RL body, there will be no difference between the RL view and the SL view.  That's how things work, there is nothing mystical or inaccurate in it.  I have already tested this with mesh objects.  The RL and SL dimensions match exactly between different objects.  If for example a table is 0.5 m taller than a chair in RL, I design and import those to SL, measure the heights there, I will notice that also in SL the difference is 0.5 m.  Nothing has changed.  Object's don't arbitrarily change their realative sizes to other objects.  The worn avatar's own mesh is no different from other meshes.  All meshes behave exactly the same way in measurements. 

Your experiments would suggest that avatar mesh would behave differently in measurements from other meshes.  That kind of strange thing is not possible - it just isn't.  The only explanation is that there is something not right in your experiments.

[Phil Deakins]

But you are still talking about something different to what I'm saying, Coby. Nobody can dispute that the RL meter is the same as the SL meter, because 'meter' is just a word. In both RL and SL, it is a length and it is often divided into 100 cms, etc. So anything that divides by 10 and 100 and 1000, etc. can be called a meter. It can be called a 'coby' in SL and still the same applies - RL meters and SL cobies can be assumed to be the same length because if everything in SL is made accordingly everything will look right. So measurements and dimensions in SL reflect measurements and dimensions in RL provided that they are made by using the same measuring device - the Edit box.

So there's no need to prove anything about SL and RL meters being the same. It goes without saying that they can't be anything but the same as long as everything is made with the same measuring device. 1 RL meter = 1 SL coby. Definitely.

But that doesn't happen. When you measure an avatar using the Appearance box, and you measure a prim using the Edit box, you end up with slightly different lengths. You've said that yourself. That's what i've been saying. That's the reason why SL measurements are screwed, and especially so since the V3 avatar height reports something quite different.

If you want to measure everything by the edit box, then everything matches RL. It can't be any different. But people don't measure everything that way. They measure their avatars with something else, and that something else isn't accurate, which means that everything is not the same as RL.

[161488303349]

saying that the V3 appearance editor ruler being wrong means that everything is not the same as in RL is being silly

is like saying:

take a tape in RL 14 inches long and mark 12 evenly spaced lines on it and call it 12 inches

+

add:

other example of what you saying

make a prim 4.46 high and call it 4.0 bc the appearance editor ruler says so

[Phil Deakins]

You are making a mistake, 16. Your logic is correct but you've applied it in the wrong way. What you said only works in SL if there is only one ruler, but there is more than one ruler. Also, I'd already said what you said, a few posts back, and I'll repeat it again later in this post.

The point I've made throughout is that measuring things in the normal ways in SL makes things different with respect to each other than they are in RL. If you measure everything in SL with the same measuring device (ruler, if you like) then everything will be the same as RL with respect to each other.

It doesn't matter what unit of measurement is used in SL. If you treat it the same as an RL meter, and everyone makes everything with it, then everything with appear to be the same in SL and in RL.

Example: Suppose in RL there is a land of little people who look exactly like us but are 12" tall on average. And they build their world to suit their own average height. Then take a photograph of somewhere in that land. Say, in one their homes. Without any 'normal' size reference in the photo, you would not be able to tell whether the photo was taken in our land or in their land.

It's the same with SL. It doesn't matter how long an SL meter is. Everything will still look like RL as long as the same 'ruler' is used for everything. But - and this is where you made your mistake - the same ruler in not used for everything in SL. We make avatar shapes with a different ruler to the one we use for making objects. So, when someone sets their avatar to be their RL height using the V3 Edit Shape ruler, and makes their furniture the same dimensions as in RL with the Edit box, then the two together will not look the same as the two together in RL. It's because different rulers have been used. I've demonstrated that very clearly in this thread.

The V3 'shape' ruler is much worse than other viewers but the other viewers are still not the same as the prim ruler and, therefore, things do look different in SL than in RL. Coby's solution is to use the prim ruler for both objects and avatar heights, and that works, but it's not something that everyone does in SL.

LL provides 2 rulers - a prim ruler and an avatar ruler. They both claim to measure meters, but the avatar ruler doesn't. Perhaps to be more accurate, the avatar ruler does measure the same meters as the prim ruler but it displays the wrong height. Unfortunately, that heightt is accepted by many people. TPVs try to correct it but they are not wholly accurate.

To put it all in a nutshell, SL measurements are screwed.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

So measurements and dimensions in SL reflect measurements and dimensions in RL

provided that they are made by using the same measuring device

- the Edit box.

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Phil, I'm very glad that you said that.  Now we don't need to agree to disagree anymore.

We are in total agreement with the above statement.  :smileyhappy:  :heart:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

When you measure an avatar using the Appearance box, and you measure a prim using the Edit box, you end up with slightly different lengths. You've said that yourself. That's what i've been saying. That's the reason why SL measurements are screwed, and especially so since the V3 avatar height reports something quite different.

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What is screwed is that Linden Lab makes people to assume that Appearance edit box shows the avatar's mesh height.  The dimensions itself  in SL are not screwed in any way - nowhere.  Not even in the Appearance edit box.  The dimension shown for the "Height" in the Appearance edit box is still the same exact meter what is used to measure prims in the Edit box.  It shows the avatar's Agent height exactly right.

Naturally things look screwed up if we make furniture using Edit box to dimension them and then we use the Appearance editor box to dimension our avatar - and assume that this is the avatar's mesh height.  The end result is that the avatar indeed looks too big compared to the furniture.  But as I said this assumption does not prove nor make the SL dimensions screwed.  Linden Lab screwed the users minds to make false assumptions.  That's all there is to it.

In your experiment you showed this fact clearly:

"Let's assume that Appearance edit box shows avatar's mesh height.  The result: the avatar does not look the right size compared to the furniture".

 

In my experiment I showed clearly:

"Let's not assume that Appearance edit box shows avatar's mesh height.  We have heard rumours that it might show something else.  We have also heard that different viewers show different results there for the same avatar.  So let's measure the avatar with prim so that we know exactly its mesh height.  The result: the avatar looks exactly the right size compared to the furniture".

So we are now in agreement of the facts.  Which is really great.  I was already starting to think that your mind was somehow screwed.  I'm very glad to see that it is not.  :smileyhappy:

 

Furthermore, if you stop saying "SL measurements are screwed" and say instead "Appearance editor box Height info screws users' minds to assume it's the avatar's mesh height" - all is good then.

 

PS.

By the way Phil, now you need to go to:

SL meter does not always =RL meter

and correct it according to the facts.

... so that the false statement will not be recorded in any history books. :smileywink:

[Phil Deakins]

I'm very glad that we agree to agree at last, Coby :heart:

When we started this discussion, I didn't know that the V3 displayed 'wrong' heights(heights that users naturally assume to mean the full height), so I've leaned something and it's been good.

All I did know was that, when making the kitchen unit to my RL unit's height, and making my avatar to my RL height, the SL unit and avatar didn't match up the same as the RL versions did. I used the V3 for it because that's the viewer I use. So it was obvious that something was wrong.

I still say that the SL measurements are screwed, though, because, the V3's Shape editor reports something different to what is intuitively expected. The TPVs try to correct it and they are better but still not accurate. So, to my way of thinking, it's screwed

I've modified that post according to your wishes

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm very glad that we agree to agree at last, Coby

:heart:

When we started this discussion, I didn't know that the V3 displayed 'wrong' heights(heights that users naturally assume to mean the full height), so I've leaned something and it's been good.

.....

I've modified that post according to your wishes

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I love good discussions in the forums.  :smileyhappy:

And now, it's the time for a Happy Dance.  :matte-motes-big-grin: