Avatar sizes

[Syo Emerald]

My avatar is around 1.97m tall and I see myself inbetween the sizescale in SL. Some Avatars are bigger than me others are smaller. I have seen furniture that is too big for me and furniture to smalle for me. But I'm not going to change.

There are far worse things than size...Shapes! Before we talk about realistic sizes, first talk about shapes. :catindifferent:

Also I have seen "women" which were representing some really dwarish size, that wasn't less weird as others who are 4 meters tall.

[Coby Foden]

---

Syo Emerald wrote:

 

There are far worse things than size...Shapes! Before we talk about realistic sizes, first talk about shapes. :catindifferent:

---

Once I spotted this alien creature in a shop.  :smileysurprised:

             

 

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I'm curious.

I just made a set of smaller, more RL realistic sized kitchen units (not the one in the pics), and I'd be interested to know how you, Coby, and other RL-sized avatars measure up against it.

---

Ok Phil, here is how the smaller units look compared to my avatar:

I got curious too.  I measured what is the kitchen desk height in my RL kitchen.  I made plywood box to that height and put it next to your kitchen unit.  In the next picture is the result:

The 0.890 meter height for kitchen desks is pretty standard height all over in Finland.

I tried to measure your desk height as closely as I could.

If you wonder how I was able rez a box on your shop floor... I didn't actually.

I made it ready in other place, then wore it in your place, and adjusted the position.

 

---

Thank you, Coby. It's much better than your earlier pics - you don't look like a dwarf You also don't look like 5'10" so I suppose it could do with being an inch or two lower, but not to be the number of RL inches high. Your wooden prim shows that RL measurements and SL measurements are very different.

I guaged the height by having my avatar set to 6' according to the Edit Shape box, then standing in front of my own RL kitchen surface and seeing where on my body it came to. I actually did some RL measuring, and I know the standard RL 600mm kitchen unit size, but neither got anywhere near being right for the SL measurements of avatars.

Someone mentioned that there's a significant difference between the metres in the Edit Shape box and the metres of a prim. So it's not really possible to make an avatar that matches RL height, or RL-sized furniture, because there is no reliable measurement in SL to go by. The best that can be done for RL sizes is to make an avatar according to the Edit Shape box and then make furniture to suit it, regardless of the measurements stated in the Edit box.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I'm curious.

I just made a set of smaller, more RL realistic sized kitchen units (not the one in the pics), and I'd be interested to know how you, Coby, and other RL-sized avatars measure up against it.

---

Ok Phil, here is how the smaller units look compared to my avatar:

I got curious too.  I measured what is the kitchen desk height in my RL kitchen.  I made plywood box to that height and put it next to your kitchen unit.  In the next picture is the result:

The 0.890 meter height for kitchen desks is pretty standard height all over in Finland.

I tried to measure your desk height as closely as I could.

If you wonder how I was able rez a box on your shop floor... I didn't actually.

I made it ready in other place, then wore it in your place, and adjusted the position.

 

---

Thank you, Coby. It's much better than your earlier pics -

you don't look like a dwarf

You also don't look like 5'10" so I suppose it could do with being an inch or two lower, but not to be the number of RL inches high. Your wooden prim shows that RL measurements and SL measurements are very different.

I guaged the height by having my avatar set to 6' according to the Edit Shape box, then standing in front of my own RL kitchen surface and seeing where on my body it came to. I actually did some RL measuring, and I know the standard RL 600mm kitchen unit size, but neither got anywhere near being right for the SL measurements of avatars.

Someone mentioned that there's a significant difference between the metres in the Edit Shape box and the metres of a prim. So it's not really possible to make an avatar that matches RL height, or RL-sized furniture, because there is no reliable measurement in SL to go by. The best that can be done for RL sizes is to make an avatar according to the Edit Shape box and then make furniture to suit it, regardless of the measurements stated in the Edit box.

---

 

listen Boyo, don't be thinkin tha jus because someone is smaller than ye, hey dannae have any fight in em..

Speakin as on o the vertically challenged, yer smaller sets look better.

 

i fergot ta mantion tha i'm only 5.3 feet tall..

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

I'm curious.

I just made a set of smaller, more RL realistic sized kitchen units (not the one in the pics), and I'd be interested to know how you, Coby, and other RL-sized avatars measure up against it.

---

Ok Phil, here is how the smaller units look compared to my avatar:

I got curious too.  I measured what is the kitchen desk height in my RL kitchen.  I made plywood box to that height and put it next to your kitchen unit.  In the next picture is the result:

The 0.890 meter height for kitchen desks is pretty standard height all over in Finland.

I tried to measure your desk height as closely as I could.

If you wonder how I was able rez a box on your shop floor... I didn't actually.

I made it ready in other place, then wore it in your place, and adjusted the position.

 

---

What is a "kitchen desk?"  Do you mean kitchen sink?  Kitchen counter?  A desk sounds like something one would write upon.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

Your wooden prim shows that RL measurements and SL measurements are very different.

I guaged the height by having my avatar set to 6' according to the Edit Shape box, then standing in front of my own RL kitchen surface and seeing where on my body it came to. I actually did some RL measuring, and I know the standard RL 600mm kitchen unit size, but neither got anywhere near being right for the SL measurements of avatars.

Someone mentioned that there's a significant difference between the metres in the Edit Shape box and the metres of a prim. So it's not really possible to make an avatar that matches RL height, or RL-sized furniture, because there is no reliable measurement in SL to go by. The best that can be done for RL sizes is to make an avatar according to the Edit Shape box and then make furniture to suit it, regardless of the measurements stated in the Edit box.

---

No Phil, my wooden prim does not show at all that RL and SL measurements would be different.  Maybe you have misunderstood what height the Linden Lab viewer's edit shape actually shows?  I'll explain it with picture.

The prim on the left is streched exactly to avatar height: the feet soles just touch the bottom of the prim and the top of the prim just touches the top of the skull.  The height of the prim is 1.80 meters (5.91 feet).  This is the true height of the avatar mesh.  I think you will agree to this fact, don't you?

Now, Linden Lab viewer's Edit Shape window shows: Height: 1.62 meters (5.33 feet).  I have streched the prim on the right exaxtly to this height.  As you can clearly see, this is not the height of the avatar mesh, it is shorter (0.18 m, about 7 inches).  I think you will agree to this fact too?

 

What Linden viewer shows for height is not the avatar's mesh height, but it avatar's Agent Height.  For some (strange) reason the Agent Height indeed is shorter than the avatar mesh is.  Whoever that Linden was who put the Agent Height in Edit Shape window made a mistake (by thinking that the Agent Heigth = avatar mesh height).

By the way, there is absolutely no difference between meters in the Edit Shape window and the meters of a prim.  Meter is a meter.  It does not change it's size in different locations.  The meter in SL is reliable. It is fixed, it does not change it's size randomly in different places.

So therefore as the meter is reliable it indeed is possible to make the avatar exactly to RL measurements - reliably.  And the RL sized furniture for this size avatar works in SL as good as they do in RL.  Believe it or not - it will work.

The worst what can be done is that what you suggested at the end of your post.  You now know that the Linden Lab viewer's Height is not the avatar's height, so why even to try to measure avatar with that?  It's not possible.  It does not help by thinking that, ah "Agent Height = avatar height".  Only accurate and reliable way to measure the avatar's height is by measuring it by prim.

[Coby Foden]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

---

What is a "kitchen desk?"  Do you mean kitchen sink?  Kitchen counter?  A desk sounds like something one would write upon.

---

I think the "desk" was my poor guess for the correct word in English. :smileytongue:

You're right, I meant "kitchen sink" and "kitchen counter".  Like the one in the above picture.  :smileyhappy:

[Czari Zenovka]

So while I was browsing through cookbooks for an exquisite cake recipe, I paused to check out the lower counters per request.  Geez, Phil....I'd get a backache trying to mix the batter on this countertop.  

I also checked the photo against my RL kitchen: the drawers themselves are aligned with my RL body in the approximate position of the top of the counter in the photo; my RL cabinet bottom edge is approximately the same height as my shoulders.  Ack...just realized I'm measuring my RL kitchen in bare feet and I have approximately 2" heels on in the photos.

I didn't check my avatar height; will do that another day.  In RL I'm 5'10" (1.788 m). 

@Coby - Oh wow!  I had no idea English wasn't your first language.  I would never have guessed.

 

[Jadeclaw Denfu]

As I mentioned two pages earlier, only the official SL-Viewer is off in its size value in the Edit Shape dialogue,
Firestorm and Singularity are correct.

Coby Foden wrote: "What Linden viewer shows for height is not the avatar's mesh height, but it avatar's Agent Height.  For some (strange) reason the Agent Height indeed is shorter than the avatar mesh is.  Whoever that Linden was who put the Agent Height in Edit Shape window made a mistake (by thinking that the Agent Heigth = avatar mesh height)."

And that difference, roughly 20cm (8inches) @ 1.80m avatar height is one of the reasons for the gigantism.
Especially since most newbies start with the official viewer.

So Newbie Resident sets his avatar height at his RL-size, e.g. 1.90m, the result is a wardrobe sized avatar > 2.10m
How should Newbie Resident know, that the official viewer gets it wrong?

Btw. /me in front of the new units:

Much better.

 

 

[161488303349]

I just make a comment that gigantism like giant gigantism started for earnest in V1. V1 not have any ruler at all. just the 0-100 height slider. so guys mostly started to max it out to 100. lots of women who were their gf followed them up

in V2 the ruler came (wrong tho) but people start to use that to go by. and so we all start to go back down to more normal

+

wish linden would do the height label adjustment in the shape editor same like the TPVs have done. like you mention

is a purely cosmetic viewer change to do this. so wish they would just do it !!!!

[Phil Deakins]

So there is a sigificant difference between prim and LL's V3 Edit Shape measurements, but not between prim and Firestorm's edit shape measurements. It's obvious that the V3 is, therefore, wrong, and that prims are the only things to measure by. Firestorm does measure by prims so it's ok to use its Edit Shape box to set the avatar height.

Using LL's V3, I set my Edit height at1.9m (6'3"). Using the Edit box in Phoenix my height is 2.1m (6'10") and in Singularity it's 2.1m (6'9"). I can't check it in Firestorm because I don't have it and the site isn't responding so I can't d/load it, but I would think it will show the same numbers as Phoenix. So there's a feet and inches disparity between different TPVs although it's not very much, and nowhere near the inaccuracy of LL's V3.

You say that LL's V3 uses 'agent height' instead of 'avatar height'. What's 'agent height'? And where does that expression come from? Is it an expression that users have invented to indicate the error in LL's height measurement?

The result is that RL-sized furniture cannot be made to suit everyone because, a lot of people do use LL's V3 and would need to be taught not to use it when setting their height - and that's not going to happen. I suppose the best that a furniture creator can do is use a TPV to set his/her RL height and make furniture to suit the avatar.

This is all very interesting

[Phil Deakins]

---

Coby Foden wrote:

I think the "desk" was my poor guess for the correct word in English. :smileytongue:

You're right, I meant "

kitchen sink

" and "

kitchen counter

".  Like the one in the above picture.  :smileyhappy:

---

"Counter" is the word that Americans use for it. We in the UK use the word 'worktop' for it - a kitchen worktop. For us, a counter is the flat surface in a shop or other place where the staff are on one side and the customer/public is on the other side - but a desk isn't a counter. A desk is a piece of stand-alone furniture - a table with drawers.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

So while I was browsing through cookbooks for an exquisite cake recipe, I paused to check out the lower counters per request.  Geez, Phil....I'd get a backache trying to mix the batter on this countertop.

 

I also checked the photo against my RL kitchen: the drawers themselves are aligned with my RL body in the approximate position of the top of the counter in the photo; my RL cabinet bottom edge is approximately the same height as my shoulders.  Ack...just realized I'm measuring my RL kitchen in bare feet and I have approximately 2" heels on in the photos.

I didn't check my avatar height; will do that another day.  In RL I'm 5'10" (1.788 m). 

@Coby - Oh wow!  I had no idea English wasn't your first language.  I would never have guessed.

---

Don't worry, Czari. I'm not replacing anything The orginal kitchens are not going anywhere. I just thought I'd make a section of more RL-sized ones and the wooden one is the first test. So get yourself over to the 'proper' sized kitchens and make with the cake

I agree that Coby's english is excellent. I too would not have known if she hadn't told me what country she is in. I knew a girl in another forum a few years back who's english was also so good that there was no indication that it was not her native language. Unfortunately, speaking (voice) with her was a trial. Writing english was her forte She was unusual. I've found that speaking in english with people who are not native english speakers is very easy because they are very understandable.

[Phil Deakins]

I've set a female av at 5'9" according to the Phoenix Appearance editor. I used a female because, even with Phoenix, the minimum male height is 6'1" and the RL me is 5'9".

I measured my RL kitchen unit height, which is 92cms including the worktop, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to that height. It was way to low for the avatar. Several inches too low. So I stood next to one of my RL kitchen units and saw where the worktop came on my body, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to around the same place on the avatar. The unit is 1.03m high. That's 8cms higher than it should be - and that's a lot.

So I conclude that the measurements of RL objects can't be used to make SL copies of them and expect the resulting sizes to be right for avatars that are set to exact RL heights (such as 5'9" or 5'10") in Phoenix and other supposedly correct viewers. In other words, the SL measurements are screwed up, and even TPVs don't allow things to be right. When Phoenix sets the avatar height, and also the kitchen unit height, and both are set to RL measurements, they are very wrong together. It doesn't work.

The whole measurement thing in SL is screwed up, so, imo, trying to do everything in RL measurements doesn't work and the best that can be done for RL sizes is to make stuff that looks right, regardless of RL accuracy. The better thing to do, of course, is what I said earlier in the thread - that is to recognise that SL is a completely different world to RL and use appropriate measurements for it.

So I've decided not to make RL-sized kitchens because what are RL-sizes in SL? The ones I already do are mod and that will do. If anyone is still interested to see, I've left the unit I just adjusted (made lower). It's a few inches too high according to Phoenix but it's the right height for a Phoenix set 5'9" person.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I've set a female av at 5'9" according to the Phoenix Appearance editor. I used a female because, even with Phoenix, the minimum male height is 6'1" and the RL me is 5'9".

---

That's another thing I hadn't realised - the minimum male height is 6'1" - in any viewer. That's unrealistic in itself and must be another reason why avatars are big. When a person sets their avatar's height, they don't want it to be 0 (zero) or they'll assume they'll be seen as a dwarf, but to get down as low as 6'1", which is often too tall, it has to be zero. So it's natural to set the height quite a lot higher - 33 or 50 or 75 - to be in keeping with the SL world, regardless of the stated RL measurement. SL was obviously not designed for male avatars to have RL heights.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

if you shrink your legs you can get down to 5'4".

[Drake1 Nightfire]

that is interesting, the "work tops" in my kitchen are 38 inches high.. or 96.52 cm to you weirdos.

[Phil Deakins]

By shrinking other stuff as well I got down to 3.99 feet That's an LL V3 measurement.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

that is interesting, the "work tops" in my kitchen are 38 inches high.. or 96.52 cm to you weirdos.

---

Interesting. Mine are 36.25" high, including the worktop. They are quite new - less than a year so they are pretty standard(ish). Yours are almost 2" higher.

[Coby Foden]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

The whole measurement thing in SL is screwed up, so, imo, trying to do everything in RL measurements doesn't work...

So I've decided not to make RL-sized kitchens because what are RL-sizes in SL?

---

No Phil, the measurements in SL are not screwed up.  They are as exact as measuremets are in RL.

"What are RL-sizes in SL?" you ask.  The truth is RL meter = SL meter.  It's been already stated earlier.

The final undisputable truth is revealed here.  Watch and learn. :smileywink:

Part of my RL kitchen cabinets (lower and upper) here with RL dimensions:

I designed the cabinets in Sketchup exactly to those RL dimensions.  I imported the cabinets to Blender where I could put the SL default SL avatar mesh standing next to the cabinets.  I resized the avatar mesh to be exactly 1.65 meters tall.  After this I exported the cabinets and avatar mesh to DAE-file.  Then I imported the DAE-file to SL.  Guess what?  The dimensions in SL indeed are exactly the same as they were in Blender and in RL.  Nothing has changed, nothing was screwed up.  The dimensions match exactly.  Which is excellent, isn't it?

Ok, the next step.  I made a copy of my shape in SL, I wore it, and adjusted it's height exactly to 1.65 meters (measuring with prim naturally).  Then I stood my avatar in front of the imported mesh cabinets and imported avatar mesh.  Everything matches exactly.  I wonder where this myth that SL dimensions would be something different from RL dimensions comes from?

 

Linden Lab viewer showed in Edit Shape window, Height 1.47 m (4.84 feet [i.e. 4 ft 10 in]).  We already know that Linden Lab viewer does not show the avatar mesh height.  What it shows is the avatar Agent Height.  Linden Lab knows this very well, but for some mysterious reason they haven't corrected the info in their viewer.

By the way, the Agent Height is not invented by the users.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetAgentSize

 

Look under "Caveats":

"The returned vector is an estimate calculated from the avatar's current shape including shoes. x is a constant 0.45[1], y is a constant 0.60[2], z is smaller than the rendered height by a fixed amount. Add .17 to z for crown to sole standing height."

There it is clearly stated that Agent Heigth is not the same as avatar's mesh height from the feet soles to the top of the skull.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

must be that us americans are just a bit taller than you brits...

[Phil Deakins]

ok Coby. Please explain this. In a previous post I wrote:-

I've set a female av at 5'9" according to the Phoenix Appearance editor. [...]

I measured my RL kitchen unit height, which is 92 cms including the worktop, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to that height. It was way to low for the avatar. Several inches too low. So I stood next to one of my RL kitchen units and saw where the worktop came on my body, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to around the same place on the avatar. The unit is 1.03m high. That's 8 cms higher than it should be - and that's a lot.

The 5'9" avatar height in Phoenix is just about the same as a 5'9" prim, so the avatar was at the right height.

I made the kitchen unit the same height as my RL kitchen unit - 92 cms including the worktop.

The RL me is 5'9" and when I stand next to my RL kitchen unit, the top surfuce of the worktop is above my crotch, but when I stand my 5'9" avatar next to the SL unit, the top of the worktop is level with my crotch. It's significantly too low. How did that happen? The avatar height is RL, the unit height is RL, but the position of the top of the worktop is in a different place on the avatar than it is on me.

 

This pic shows where the worktop is when both the avatar and the unit are exact RL heights. The avatar is bare-footed. The worktop is much too low. The avatar height was set in Phoenix's Appearance box.

 

This pic shows where the worktop should be on the bare-footed RL-height avatar. But the height of the unit prim is way above the actual RL height.

 

So it looks to me that SL measurements are screwed up.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

ok Coby. Please explain this. In a previous post I wrote:-

I've set a female av at 5'9" according to the Phoenix Appearance editor. [...]

I measured my RL kitchen unit height, which is 92 cms including the worktop, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to that height. It was way to low for the avatar. Several inches too low. So I stood next to one of my RL kitchen units and saw where the worktop came on my body, and I adjusted the SL kitchen unit to around the same place on the avatar. The unit is 1.03m high. That's 8 cms higher than it should be - and that's a lot.

The 5'9" avatar height in Phoenix is just about the same as a 5'9" prim, so the avatar was at the right height.

I made the kitchen unit the same height as my RL kitchen unit - 92 cms including the worktop.

The RL me is 5'9" and when I stand next to my RL kitchen unit, the top urfuce of the worktop is above my crotch, but when I stand my 5'9" avatar next to the SL unit, the top of the worktop is level with my crotch. It's significantly too low. How did that happen? The avatar height is RL, the unit height is RL, but the position of the top of the worktop is in a different place on the avatar than it is on me.

 

This pic shows where the worktop is when both the avatar and the unit are exact RL heights. The avatar is bare-footed. The worktop is much too low. The avatar height was set in Phoenix's Appearance box.

 

This pic shows where the worktop should be on the bare-footed RL-height avatar. But the height of the unit prim is way above the actual RL height.

 

So it looks to me that SL measurements are screwed up. If the height of the avatar is set using a prim, then no doubt the worktop would be in the right place, but it was set using the Appearance box and that height measurement (the number of feet and inches, or meters) is not the same as a prim measurement.

Since avatar heights are set using the Appearance box and the V3's equivalent, furniture should be made to suit those measurements, and not prim avatar heights.

---

Phil, did you ever wonder if your female avi has exactly the same proportion as you in RL .? She can have the same height as you, but if her legs are shorter it will make a difference ...

And why dont we have the pic of you in RL standing rigth inside a kitchen worktop lol ?

So we can definitely do the comparaison :smileyvery-happy:

[Phil Deakins]

I didn't check the proportions, Trinity. But I just shortned the av's legs (she's still by that kitchen unit, btw) and it lowered her height. I'm sure that the Phoenix Appearance height is the sum of the various parts, so legs + torso + head = height, and changing the proprtions to,say, shorten the legs and lengthen the torso will result in the same height.

I didn't use me in the pics because reducing my av's height only got it down to 6'1", and I thought that was a low as it would go. I've since realised that I could have shortened the legs, for instance, to lower the height. However, if I did stuff like that, I'd have to redo my shape altogether, so the female was the easiest to use. Besides, she's much nicer to look at than I am 

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I didn't check the proportions, Trinity. But I just shortned the av's legs (she's still by that kitchen unit, btw) and it lowered her height. I'm sure that the Phoenix Appearance height is the sum of the various parts, so legs + torso + head = height, and changing the proprtions to,say, shorten the legs and lengthen the torso will result in the same height.

 

---

indeed..; height is height. 

but in RL, between 2 persons that have the exact same height, one can have the worktop at the hips and the other one, have the exact same worktop lower...

its a problem that happen often in rl for sinks... For some pp with same height it can be at right level, but for some others with higher legs or shorters one it can be felt as too much low or high.

So you wont be able to make the ideal kitchen worktop bec its already impossible to do it in RL... the big advantage in SL still, is that things are easier to move...and even easier to resize if their are mod..;:smileywink: