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solstyse

Next logical thing for LL to work on.

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I honestly think LL needs to expand the number of official viewers. Foir one, expanding the full featured viewer to ARM archetecture for IOS, Android, and Windows RT would reflect the changing priorities of the current consumer. Also, it would show that LL is willing to change with the times.

Microsoft's newest pair of operatng systems reflect this change in consumer priorities by making windows 8 for PC's much closer to the mobile platforms of tablets and smartphones.In fact, the UI even mimicks the look of Windows RT (Window's mobile os.) Right now, anyone using ARM archetecture doesn't have an official viewer to use. AS for TPV's, the best is probably Lumiya, which falls far short of what any viewer, whether ofical or tpv can do for an x86 chip.

It is well known that most tpv's use LL's official code as a sort of "baseline." so doesn't it make sense that even to tpv loyalists, LL needs to lead the way in developing software for tablets?

With the high level of marketshare that ARM chipsets are getting, isn't developing software for this chipset that mimicks the experience of x86 archetecture the only thing that makes sense? Now that Microsoft has seen the potential of this hardware, can LL afford to ignore it?

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Writing the code for a tablet or smartphone is probably not all that difficult..........code is code afterall.  But once that code is written what is anyone going to do with it?  Fire up that viewer, then what?  You really think there's a tablet or smartphone out there that has the graphics capability to handle the 3D environment that makes up SL?  What tablet or smartphone do you know about that is capable of maintaining a high speed connection to the Internet without the aid of a router that is connected to the Internet.  4G may be fast for voice and text..........super slow for something like SL. 

There's a bunch that has to evolve on the hand held mobil devices before anyone needs to worry about a viewer for them.  Until phones and tablets get faster and get more graphics capabilities they will never work satisfactorily for SL.  Give it 3 to 5 years and if some phone or tablet advances that far, someone will create a viewer for it (it may even be Linden Lab who does it too).

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This is just my personal opinion, but here it goes.

I don't think LL has much worry at this point in time about falling behind. The amount of power a computer that SL requires you to have to just run it smoothly, along with the amount of bandwidth that is required just exceeds the requirements of a tablet by far. Albeit tablets are cool and mobile, I don't feel SL has to worry about them for at least a few more years. Even then the components in a tablet are extremely small, and making things small makes them more expensive. So say you take my PC and reduce it into a tiny tablet. I'm pretty sure it would cost at LEAST 10x if not 20x more than what it does now. Which might be a reason for them to expand, but then they could think "Well how big is this market, Oh just 10 people have these tablets...naw!"

Though I suppose there are alternatives such as hosting their avatar and streaming it live to their phone, using video rather than the rendering of their actual phone. But that would cost lots of money that LL doesn't have access to (at least I don't think they do)

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My opinion is based on a few things.

1. Tablets took a surprising amount of marketshare in 2012.

2. Most people I know who run ARM chips of any kind are spending a surprising amount of time on a wifi network. I estimate that my Atrix spends roughly 30 minutes a day relying on onlly 4g. That's not even an exaggeration. Everywhere I go in a typical day, the only time I spend away from a wifi network that I am welcome on is when I'm driving.

3. Desktop marketshare is dropping at a surprising rate.

4. Laptop and tablet technology are beginning to merge. Look to the Microsoft Surface and Lenovo Twist for examples.

5. Windows 8 is designed to mimick the look of windows RT, and even behave very similarly when in the Metro UI. This is definitely a sign of things to come. I have little doubt that the shift to more portable computing will be accelerated by this OS.

6. Arm archetecture is growing in capability at a very rapid rate, while x86 archetecture is slowing down. It's only a matter of time before ARM catches up comletely. There are already several emulators for smartphones, several methods of docking them to larger screen devices,

7. To answer the question of whether or not ARM devices have the capability of handling the graphics, just do a google search for ARM game console. Here's one that'll play xbox 360 and ps3 games by streaming from a cloud based service. https://www.onlive.com/store (And yes, I've seen this in action. It works quite well. It IS on a wired network, but there are people using SL on wireless because it's not as "action based" as most video games.)

So basically, the technology is here. And year after year it'll only get better. I sort of agree with you Peggy, that ARM is usually a pretty high cost for the specs you get. And personally, for now I'll limit my ARM purchases to a new cell phone every two years (because that's when the wireless providers subsidise your purchase, allowing you to pay far less than the product is worth in exchange for a new contract.) But the demand for it is there, and it's a whole market that LL can tap.

If none of my other observations have convinced you so far, then there's one more.

8. Nothing venture3d, nothing gained.

I look forward to further discussion on this topic. It's one of great interest to me.

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I have a 4G modem that I use on the road, and the bandwidth, ping time, and packet loss are all more than adequate for running SL.  SL runs just as smoothly on the modem as it does plugged into my router at home.  My only complaint is the cost, $10 USD/gigabyte, and I can easily eat up a gig in an evening.

I think your point about the graphics capability of current tablets is well taken, but what with Moore's Law and all, I would not bet much money that they will always be constrained by graphics power.

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There are several things, I think, you are overlooking.

Gamers love large screens, even multiple screens. The new video cards often have connections for 4 screens. It gives the immersive quality and improves aim in FPShooters. That crowd is not going to transfer to small screen devices.

Professional creatives are using larger and larger screens. They are not working from iPad's.

While the mobile market is growing that is from divergence as more devices divide up the market. So, it becomes a matter of specific demographics as to whether your audience is moving to mobile devices or staying with desktops. I think it is nearly impossible to know what the SL audience is doing because of the viewer requirements.

Another problem with portable devices is storage space. It is not cost efficient yet. My SL cache is about 1gb. That is a pretty good sized chunk of storage on a 32gb iPad. Some get around mobile restrictions on storage by using a USB external drive, which sort of defeats the whole mobile thing.

The next problem is render speed on tablets and mobile devices. Most are currently optimized for video streaming rather than 3D poly rendering. New rendering paradigms are in development. When one of the more efficient rendering concepts gets worked out, we will likely see 3D moving into mobile and tablets. Until then the high end rendering seen on desktops plugged into the power grid is going to run on mobile devices. It simply consumes too much power.

Bandwidth with SL is another huge problem. T-Mobil is about the only service that provides unlimited data, but they slow your speed at when you consume 10gb. Unil the wireless system costs come down bandwidth consumption is going to be a problem.

I suspect the Lab is aware of all the problems. I am certain they are aware of Cloud Party and its ability to run in WebGL, which runs on many mobile devices but not iPAD (afaik). However changes in June and some hacking allowed

. (Note the USB power thing in the video)

So, there is competitive pressure on the Lab. I am certain they are watching to see how well CP is received by the mobile crowd.

I think it is too soon to see the Lab taking SL to the mobile crowd. They are obviously learning the tech in small bites with their other products, like Creatorverse. I expect them to wait until the tech is more mature to consider moving SL. They may possibly wait it out through a generation of tech and use 2.0 mobile tech in a year or so. Trying to move the huge SL system with all its complications seems like far to much to bit off. For now waiting, learning, and watching developements is probably more logical.

 

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

There are several things, I think, you are overlooking.

Gamers love large screens, even multiple screens. The new video cards often have connections for 4 screens. It gives the immersive quality and improves aim in
FPS
hooters. That crowd is not going to transfer to small screen devices.

Professional creatives are using larger and larger screens. They are not working from iPad's.

While the mobile market is growing that is from divergence as more devices divide up the market. So, it becomes a matter of specific demographics as to whether your audience is moving to mobile devices or staying with desktops. I think it is nearly impossible to know what the SL audience is doing because of the viewer requirements.

Another problem with portable devices is storage space. It is not cost efficient yet. My SL cache is about 1gb. That is a pretty good sized chunk of storage on a 32gb iPad. Some get around mobile restrictions on storage by using a USB external drive, which sort of defeats the whole mobile thing.

The next problem is render speed on tablets and mobile devices. Most are currently optimized for video streaming rather than 3D poly rendering. New rendering paradigms are in development. When one of the more efficient rendering concepts gets worked out, we will likely see 3D moving into mobile and tablets. Until then the high end rendering seen on desktops plugged into the power grid is going to run on mobile devices. It simply consumes too much power.

Bandwidth with SL is another huge problem. T-Mobil is about the only service that provides unlimited data, but they slow your speed at when you consume 10gb. Unil the wireless system costs come down bandwidth consumption is going to be a problem.

I suspect the Lab is aware of all the problems. I am certain they are aware of Cloud Party and its ability to run in WebGL, which runs on many mobile devices but not iPAD (afaik). However changes in June and some hacking allowed
. (Note the USB power thing in the video)

So, there is competitive pressure on the Lab. I am certain they are watching to see how well CP is received by the mobile crowd.

I think it is too soon to see the Lab taking SL to the mobile crowd. They are obviously learning the tech in small bites with their other products, like Creatorverse. I expect them to wait until the tech is more mature to consider moving SL. They may possibly wait it out through a generation of tech and use 2.0 mobile tech in a year or so. Trying to move the huge SL system with all its complications seems like far to much to bit off. For now waiting, learning, and watching developements is probably more logical.

 

The reason why I overlooked what fps gamers are doing is that SL is not a fps game. There are some sims that use huds and attachments to make your experience like it is, but that doesn't mean that's what it is.

LL has been making moves to put more of the "work" on the server side. And honestly, that's a good thing even for those of us on the x86 chiipset. But as more of the workload goes server-side, that means less and less for any device to do. And since ARM devices have already reached the point where they can compete graphically with xbox and Playstation 3, they really don't have that far to go.

The tablet is a formfactor based upon consumption, not productivity. That looks like it'll be changing in 2013 though. And designers in sl are a much smaller community than consumers.  Want a bigger screen? Dock it. My phone looks surprisingly good on a 50 inch tv. Granted, that's not 3d rendering. But that link I provided in my previous post is. And that's an ARM device.

Cache can always be limited, cleared, or cleaned out. Most mobile devices have slots to expand their memory with SD or micro SD cards that greatly increase their capacity.

Bandwidth isn't even an issue. Many of these tablets aren't even equipped for 4g. And all f the ones that are can connect to 802.11/b/g/n.

I think you may be looking at tablets a little too logically. If everybody realized that they're getting the world's least capable machine for a premium price, nobody would buy them. It's like buying a $700 dollar smartphone that doesn't make phone calls or fit in your pocket. Or, from the opposite angle like spending the money for the latest and greatest ultrabook and being happy with specs that make a netbook look good. But people ARE buying them just because they're something new. What really matters isn't that they don't make sense. It's that people are buying them like crazy, which makes them a market that LL could easily tap.

So I'll agree that a desktop computer is best for SL. There's no denying that. But making sl work and look good on one of the fastest growing segments in computing (even if not as good as it is on a traditional computer) really can't be called a bad idea.

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I don't think anyone has said it's a bad idea.  What they have said (and what I was saying) is that, at this time in the technilogical evolution, the phones and tablets just are not capable enough to do it.  Some day that evolution may get there (I estimate not less than 3 years but very likely before 5 years at the present rate of development).  What I get from you is that you think LL should move to make SL compatible with phones and tablets.  Doing that would either require a complete revamping of the entire SL platform or degrading what is already developed so that that attractive and growing market can get onboard.  The former is just not economically sound (millions of man hours and, probably, millions more dollars tossed to move to a new market?  Ain't gonna happen.  And the latter........you may gain a small niche of that vast market but you'd loose what you have plus that niche you gain is very used to "free" apps (all, or most, of the virtual land that is now owned by users would have to be swallowed up by LL.....the money is gone.  And no money, no business......SL is gone).

In order for SL to ever be able to run on hand helds the hand helds have to evolve to the point that they will run SL.  Not the other way around (which is what I take from your comments).

 

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I am sure sometime in the future tablets might become feasible but for right now why would you want to engage this experience on a 7 to 14 inch screen. Reminds me of the old days when monitors were 9 and 12 inches but I suppose when "on the road" it would be a convenient method of keeping tabs on you're pixel puppet.

Also the newest greatest product from MS has failed to live up to the hype as sales have reflected, seems it is a disappointment for MS.

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What all the naysayers are saying is that this doesn't exist. http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/ And that it doesn't do this: Lumiya 2.3.3 - HUDs and terrain

Lumiya 2.3.3 is available on Google Play.

  • HUD support;
  • Textured terrain in 3D view;
  • Fly controls in 3D view;
  • Optional high-quality textures;
  • Chat messages and user keys can be copied to clipboard;
  • "Clear cache" option in settings;
  • Configurable texture memory limit;       
  • Configurable LED blinking for notifications;
  • Option to restart sim for land owners;
  • NEON-optimized code for texture decompression;

Performance, as of version 2.3.0:

  • On modern phones and tablets with CPU frequencies in 1GHz range, it will give you around 10-20 FPS in quiet locations. Initial world generation takes a few seconds, and texture download may take longer.
  • On older generation phones with CPU frequencies in 300 MHz range, it will give you around 1-3 FPS at best, and initial world generation takes tens of seconds. It may still be useful to give you a brief idea of your surroundings.
  • Performance and memory requirements largely depend on draw distance. If you experience Out of Memory errors, reducing draw distance will help a lot.
  • At busy locations with lot of avatars around, the framerate will inevitably drop.
Limitations:
  • Terrain and sky are not textured.
  • "Mesh" is not supported. Sculpted objects are supported.
  • Textures are heavily downsampled to comply with Android memory usage limitations.
  • Particle systems, local lighting and other fancy features are not supported.

The technology is there. It's already been done by a tpv. The controls are horrendous though. Using it on a small screen has it's inherent flaws, and on a larger screen I have to use a mouse and do a lot of click and drag for functions that were designed for touch. The program actually works quite well, but I'm sure a better user interface could be made. So yes, it makes perfect sense for LL to do what has already proven to be possible. The ARM crowd is already accustomed to getting the "lite" version of any software they use.

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The technology is there. It's already been done by a tpv. The controls are horrendous though. 

I think that's the most enduring challenge for 3D virtual worlds on touch devices. In contrast, the processing limitations will take care of themselves soon enough. Designing a really user-friendly way to get around SL without the accuracy of a pointing device... I suppose it depends how much it must support, but imagine implementing the full Build Tool in Lumiya.

The topic is important because marketshare numbers understate the shift -- and they're already pretty overwhelming. (See slides 24 - 26 in Mary Meeker's "Internet Trends Year-End Update" for Kleiner Perkins.) The reason even those hockeystick graphs understate the situation for SL is that there's an even more dramatic shift to mobile platforms for the crucial recreational hours spent with eyeballs on a screen. If SL isn't the virtual world that supports those platforms, somebody else will -- and at that point, gamers sitting in front of big cushy 4K screens really won't be driving the market.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


The technology is there. It's already been done by a tpv. The controls are horrendous though. 

I think that's the most enduring challenge for 3D virtual worlds on touch devices. In contrast, the processing limitations will take care of themselves soon enough. Designing a really user-friendly way to get around SL without the accuracy of a pointing device... I suppose it depends how much it must support, but imagine implementing the full Build Tool in Lumiya.

The topic is important because marketshare numbers
understate
the shift -- and they're already pretty overwhelming. (See slides 24 - 26 in Mary Meeker's
for Kleiner Perkins.) The reason even those hockeystick graphs understate the situation for SL is that there's an even more dramatic shift to mobile platforms for the crucial
recreational
hours spent with eyeballs on a screen. If SL isn't the virtual world that supports those platforms, somebody else will -- and at that point, gamers sitting in front of big cushy 4K screens really won't be driving the market.

I jusst want to build on the stats you've stated. One of the reasons for the success of mobile internet is the increase in efficiency. If you even look at the system requirements for a full feature viewer, then for Windows Vista, 3gb ram is recommended. For Linux, it's only 1. Android, which shares the Linux kernel is inherently more efficient.

Now, I'll admit that my laptop is overdue for it's bi-annual Windows 7 clean install. And I'll also concede that Lumiya for the android os does lack some of SL's newest features. However, my 1 ghz smartphone in 3d view makes walking around easier than my 2.3 ghz laptop. While I expect improvement after my reinstall and optimize session, I don't realistically expect that the laptop will reach the efficiency of the phone. Why? Because of the difference in philosophy by developers of mobile apps and x86 programmers.

Qie, I think someone at Microsoft saw a chart similar to the one you showed when they dreamed up the metro ui. Creating a "similar user experience" was actually the philosophy behind laying that UI on top of every single version of windows that exists. The bottom line is that the world's biggest OS is no longer designed with desktops in mind. And I expect that when 2013 shows up on those charts you linked to, the Metro US is actually going to cause a steeper curve in both the decline of the desktop and the rise of mobile computing. Let's face it. A UI designed for touch is something that the desktop user is the least likely of anyone to truly enjoy. Right now, you can get around it by pressing win-d to get into desktop mode, buy a $300 touchscreen monitor (which defeats one of the desktop's biggest advantages-lower cost for higher specs) or $70 for a "touchmouse" (a combination mouse and touchpad that lest you do all the gestures that Metro was designed for) or you can use an old fashioned mouse and constantly go to the corner hotspots to do anything.

But that is not saying that there are no advantages to the desktop user. Win 8 has system requirements that are identical to win7. But it can run smaller, more efficiient "apps" instead of full programs, which to the end user do the same thing, only more efficiently. It boots quicker, and executes win7 programs with a negligable boost in speed. Add to this the 7gb of skydrive space they throw in with a Microsoft account, the ability to sync across multiple devices and the "in your face" cloud connectivity, and it's clear that the operating system that most people will be running when they replace their old machines is designed with mobile in mind. I think that as time goes on, the legacy desktop will go the way of FAT32. The public will be weaned off of old style programs, and toward smaller apps.

What all this means is that even as ARM's specs increase due to Moore's law, the need and desire for local storage will actually decrease. More of he processing will take place on the server side, following the mobile model. Plus, as ARM gains capabilities, it's concievable that more apps will requiere the use of peripherals. I use the same wireless mouse with my phone as I do with my lappy.

The main reason why I think LL should make a viewer for ARM is the point I made about win8 vs. win7. Designing a single UI to place on both ARM and X86 chips broke Microsoft's habit of making every OS more resource hungry than it's previous. Focusing on optimizing for devices that are more mobile but less capable actually makes it benchmark a bit better. Someone else in this thread has actually already mentioned LL's habit of making it's viewer more and more resource hungry, despite the trend by the rest of the world to do the opposite. I honestly think that designing an official viewer for ARM devices will not only expose them to a new market. It also will make the standard x86 viewer more efficient, helping them retain long time residents.

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From a use-case/usability point of view the merits of a mobile platform are ultimately not reflected in the degree to which it approximates the LAN gaming experience. On the contrary it takes the relationship between SL and RL in the direction of augmented and mixed reality.  The inherent massively distributed-computing model  would tolerate reasonable mobile client-side technological lag if the overall superimposition/integration of SL on/with physical reality is adequate. At the same time it would allow for client-server task redistribution (as suggested earlier with respect to client-side avatar implementation).

LL's recent cooperation with Steam would in any case seem to constitute a flirting gesture to the gaming community. Of course in how far this would apply to augmented gaming remains to be seen and would be contingent on the envisioned business model.

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There are outside forces that make an ARM viewer problematic beyond the computing power and graphics discussion. SL isn't a game that resides on the device and gets minimal downloaded data updates, it has to be constantly streamed both up and down (and upload speeds for the vast majority of broadband users are horrendously slow). How would SL address data caps that would be blown away by a game like SL? Even the cable broadband internet providers are instituting data caps on their services so WiFi isn't above the fray either. Building a viewer for ARM might get devices the ability, but how many people will be willing to pay for the increased data cap to play?

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Cincia Singh wrote:

Even the cable broadband internet providers are instituting data caps on their services so WiFi isn't above the fray either. 

Although that's a problem for desktop, too, as long as it's the same client-server protocol.

And speaking of protocol, one unfortunate implication for SL of broadband data caps is that they pretty much smothered server-side rendering in its crib. Otherwise that may have been an interesting option for less powerful devices (including mobile) and probably another revenue opportunity for LL.

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Cincia Singh wrote:

There are outside forces that make an ARM viewer problematic beyond the computing power and graphics discussion. SL isn't a game that resides on the device and gets minimal downloaded data updates, it has to be constantly streamed both up and down (and upload speeds for the vast majority of broadband users are horrendously slow). How would SL address data caps that would be blown away by a game like SL? Even the cable broadband internet providers are instituting data caps on their services so WiFi isn't above the fray either. Building a viewer for ARM might get devices the ability, but how many people will be willing to pay for the increased data cap to play?

Actually, the fact is that very little of anything resides on an arm device. The technology, with it's low specs would seem unusable otherwise. That's the reason why when you get a smartphone, you are required by your provider to get a data plan. Think about standard office programs. Google docs: cloud based. Microsoft Office: Cloud connected even for desktops. (while the desktop allows local storage, Office is now available as a subscription service that gives the "owner" account 20gb of skydrive space while other users on the machine get the standard 7gb that comes with any Microsoft account.

As for cable boradband instituting data caps, how is that even an issue? Wifi is your own local network, independant of your internet. Devices are connected by your own router, regardless of whether or not you have your modem plugged in. A tablet isn't going to use more bandwidth or consume more data than a desktop is. If anything, due to the efficiency of app codes compared to full programs, it may use less. SL's servers are going to send and recieve the same amount of data via the modem whether your connection is wired or wireless.

Netflix and youtube are both "streaming" services. And I have yet to meet the Android user who is hesitant to use them due to data caps.

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"...

As for cable boradband instituting data caps, how is that even an issue? Wifi is your own local network, independant of your internet. Devices are connected by your own router, regardless of whether or not you have your modem plugged in. A tablet isn't going to use more bandwidth or consume more data than a desktop is. If anything, due to the efficiency of app codes compared to full programs, it may use less. SL's servers are going to send and recieve the same amount of data via the modem whether your connection is wired or wireless.

Netflix and youtube are both "streaming" services. And I have yet to meet the Android user who is hesitant to use them due to data caps."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Uammm.  Yeah your wifi is a local network.  Whether a public wifi hotspot (like an Internet cafe, or your local library) or your personal network with a router.  Depending on the setup for that local network any device connected to the network can communicate freely with other devices connected to the network........without any need for an Internet connection.  Once any device needs a service that none of the other devices have available someplace has to be accessed for that service.  If that service is only available via the Internet (such as Second Life) there is only one place to obtain that service.......the Internet.  Your local network is independant from the Internet but not if your device needs the Internet to deliver what you request of it.  Rethink what you said..........you are way off base.

And streaming video (or anything) is very different than what the LL servers do.  A HD movie streamed from Netflix or Youtube is a tiny fraction of the amount of data sent (and recieved) from the SL servers.  You can stream dozens of HD movies and eat up a fraction of the data used for a single hour of SL use.  And if an ISP has data caps in place and you stream enough you'll bump up to that cap.....not as quickly as with SL but you'll get there eventually.

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[...] A HD movie streamed from Netflix or Youtube is a tiny fraction of the amount of data sent (and recieved) from the SL servers.  You can stream dozens of HD movies and eat up a fraction of the data used for a single hour of SL use. 

In contrast to solstyse, I know plenty of mobile users who are very, very careful about how much video they stream. (To be fair, I live in Canada now, which has the worst telecom cartel and most corrupt regulators in the developed world.)

I'm very curious, however, about this assertion that HD video uses less bandwidth than SL. I can't reconcile that with any numbers I know, nor with my experience bumping my cable cap by streaming just a few hours of 1080p -- something I've never approached with my normal SL usage over a full month.

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Actually I was quite on base when what I wrote is looked at in the context that I wrote it. You're on second life anyway. That uses your bandwidth anyway. If you take the time to actually read and comp0rehend what I said, INTERNET USAGE IS THE SAME WHETHER IT IS DELIVERED VIA ETHERNET CABLE OR WIFI. In otherwords, using an 80211n router will not cause second life to suddenly cause data overages if used the same as it was being used on an old fashioned wired ethernet. Thus, it is impossible for a device using an ARM chip to consume  more data than an x86 chip.

The ONLY variable in data consumptiion rate is the habits of the human being using the device that transfers the data. Cable, DSL, "free" wifi, 4g, and even dialup are nothing more than delivery methods. 80211 simply takes the delivered data from the internet and distributes it to devices within it's network.

Now, IN CONTEXT due to the fact that the data provider, regardless of which delivery method they use charge the same for all data distributed within a network, the device has no effect on fees. Seeing as how broadband has a single connection point to the outside (the internet) how that data is distributed downstream of that connection (the local network) is moot.

If your internet is capped, and your secondlife use doesn't put you over that cap, then accessing sl through a different device is a perfectly safe thing to do. That's the reaso n why it's so confusing that you would even mention broadband. You even agreed with what I said in the same paragraph you told me to rethink it. Compare the parallels.

I wrote: Wifi is your own local network, independant of your internet. Devices are connected by your own router, regardless of whether or not you have your modem plugged in.

Then you wrote:  Yeah your wifi is a local network.  Whether a public wifi hotspot (like an Internet cafe, or your local library) or your personal network with a router.  Depending on the setup for that local network any device connected to the network can communicate freely with other devices connected to the network........without any need for an Internet connection.

Are you telling me that the reason why it's wrong to cal the sky blue is because it's blue? Here's another parallel.

I wrote: SL's servers are going to send and recieve the same amount of data via the modem whether your connection is wired or wireless.

Then you wrote:  If that service is only available via the Internet (such as Second Life) there is only one place to obtain that service.......the Internet.  Your local network is independant from the Internet but not if your device needs the Internet to deliver what you request of it.  Rethink what you said..........you are way off base.

Maybe you can explain how paraphrasing me makes you correct while I'm "way off base."? Again I remind you that the context of discussion about the internet and modems is that while using second life, the data usage is there regardless of whether or not your local network is wireless.

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Qui, phones seem to have different problems based on where they're located. Just south of you in the US, most of the people I know are required by their wireless contract to "buy" a certain amount of data per month. And if you're running completely from 4g then it's possible to run over the minimum.

However, there is so much wifi coverage that the big complaint here is "My battery doesn't last like it used to." One of the most popular apps here is one that only enables your wifi to enable with the screen turned on so that your phone isn't sniffing out new networks while it's in your pocket. And my phone provider doesn't track data that's delivered via wifi. Only data delivered via 4g.

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I don't know what you are arguing about.  What I said is that you were off base when you said your local Internet is independant from the Internet (which, technically, it is) so the bandwidth usage does not apply.  It does apply.......it takes bandwidth to do anything on the Internet.  And it takes the same bandwidth to do the same thing on the Internet whether you do it through your Internet service provider or through your wireless phone provider (3G or 4G)..........the difference is how fast it gets done.  I made no connection on Ethernet cable or wireless for bandwidth usage.

My initial post was that it's going to be while before hand held moble devices are capable of running SL with any success.........I think at least 3 years but more likely 5 years.  Until the hand helds get to that point LL won't market to them.  There's simply no use to do so because that market is not capable of utilizing what SL has to offer.  Unless, of course, LL revamps SL to that market.........which is just not economically feasible.  That's my stance and nothing you've posted has done a thing to convince me that I'm wrong.  Obviously you don't have much of an idea of what SL or how it's delivered to the users....if you did then you would not be throwing out these distractions about modems, routers, bandwidth usage, 3G, 4G, data caps and what have you.

Wait until your phone gets powerful enough for SL before you tell LL to make it work on your phone.  Until then it won't happen.  Just a fact of life.

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Everything I have said about bandwidth was a response to what someone else had to say about it. I think several on this thread were under the impression that I was suggesting running SL on 4g. I wasn't. I lost count of how many times I mentioned 802.llb/g/n. Which traditionally connects to a broadband modem.

then the moot arguement of broadband data caps ensued, making me feel that it's necessary to point out the plethora of reasons why if that broadband network is already on second life, then the presence of an 802.11 network downstream of the modem will not have any effect on capped data. It's all in this thread, if you want to take the time to re-read.

My phone won't be powerful to run sl until October of 2011. Oh, oops. It's 2013. And I already access SL on my phone via a program that I have already linked to in this thread, and that I have already posted the technical specs of in this thread.

We can agree to disagree about whether or not an official LL viewer for ARM devices would be worth their time. You may even point to the limitations of Lumiya or even it's existence as your proof. We can surely see that from a different perspective.

My argumentative tone comes from seeing myself misquoted, and then told that I don't know what I'm talking about because I use technology you haven't heard of. I don't mean that as an attack on you at all. Most people have no idea that an Android viewer even exists. The point is that the fact that you haven't heard of it doesn't make me the one who doesn't know. Now, I really wish you would be more willing to focus on the technicals of this, instead of taking on a condescending tone saying things like, " Obviously you don't have much of an idea of what SL or how it's delivered to the users" and "Rethink what you said. You are way off base." and justifying it with what basically amounts to speculatiion. Please, come with facts instead of insults.

So, let's recap on some facts.

The viewer you keep insisting doesn't exist is available here: http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/ and also here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Third_Party_Viewer_DirectoryThe native code parts are compiled for ARM and x86 processors.

Several videos of it in use are here: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/10/lumiya-.html

Performance specs are here: http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/index.php/features/3d-view but for your convenience I'll copy and paste a second time.

Starting with version 2.0.0, Lumiya can show the Second Life world around you in 3D. However, it has some limitations, so please read the details below to see if it suits you.

Performance, as of version 2.3.0:

  • On modern phones and tablets with CPU frequencies in 1GHz range, it will give you around 10-20 FPS in quiet locations. Initial world generation takes a few seconds, and texture download may take longer.
  • On older generation phones with CPU frequencies in 300 MHz range, it will give you around 1-3 FPS at best, and initial world generation takes tens of seconds. It may still be useful to give you a brief idea of your surroundings.
  • Performance and memory requirements largely depend on draw distance. If you experience Out of Memory errors, reducing draw distance will help a lot.
  • At busy locations with lot of avatars around, the framerate will inevitably drop.
Limitations:
  • Terrain and sky are not textured.
  • "Mesh" is not supported. Sculpted objects are supported.
  • Textures are heavily downsampled to comply with Android memory usage limitations.
  • Particle systems, local lighting and other fancy features are not supported.

And a screenshot (edited because I got the message "Only uploaded pictures may be linked"  http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/index.php/screenshots Scroll over a bit until you find the 3d view.

The phone that you don't think is powerful enough to run it even though it does is a Motorola 4g Atrix 2. Specs: http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_atrix_2_mb865-4199.php and here: http://www.motorola.com/us/consumers/MOTOROLA-ATRIX-2/73912,en_US,pd.html?selectedTab=tab-2&cgid=mobile-phones#tabWhen you read through, pay special attention to the release date (October 2011.) processor (Dual core 1ghz Cortex A9, Dual Channel RAM with Advanced 3D Graphics Acceleration), memory (8 GB storage onboard, microSD, up to 32GB, 2 GB included) and wlan (Wi-Fi 802.11 a/b/g/n, DLNA, Wi-Fi hotspot)

So far, I have shown an example of a tpv that does what I say LL should do. So, that's been done. And I showed an example of a device capable of using said tpv. I have thouroughly and ad nauseum discussed the method by which this device transfers data. (802.11n secured networkto get from the phone to the modem, uncapped broadband from the modem to the internet.

But because I use this technology and you do not, I need to "rethink what I'm saying. I'm far off base, and obviously I don't have much of an idea what SL is or how it's delivered to it's users." And this is all based on the fact that you think it'll be 3 to 5 years and require a major revamp of SL to do what I've proven can be done. I takew no issue with you disagreeing with me about the timing, or thinking that it would be more economically viable for LL to wait. We can disagree about the level of demand. I will happily debate all of those points with you. But if you're going to continue using the kind of language toward me that you've been, then it's time to back it up with some facts.

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I think what Peggy means is it is at this point not possible to run SL on a phone or tablet the way LL wants the user to experience SL. There is no denying that as far as I can see. You can't compare a tablet (let alone a phone) to a desktop computer, you can't compare the current mobile viewers to the desktop viewers.

Lumiya is a nice addition to the viewers available, but as long as it can't process any mesh objects, I can't take it more serious than a text based viewer. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read it won't even allow a rezz from inventory.) Others disagree, that's why people use it. I don't think that market is big enough at this point to justify a big investment in time and resources by LL to offer something like that. Again, others disagree, that's why Lumiya was written.

Possibilities and demand in the mobile (second) world will grow, but so will the requirements for the latest LL viewer. Time will tell when tablets have caught up. Even though you can run your mobile device off a fixed system (modem in either home or for example restaurant), I don't think the market will be all that big until you can run SL on a mobile signal at reasonable speed and cost. I don't think the market will be all that big until a mobile device can run SL at 10-20 fps in a crowded sim instead of a quiet one.

Until then I don't expect LL to offer anything. They already offer the base code so third parties can fill in some niches in the market. I actually don't think LL will offer any "mobile viewer" at all. Look at Microsoft, with Win8 they have an OS that can be used on any device, mobile or stationary, lightweight or a powerhouse. If LL takes this approach all we can do is wait until the difference between a computer and tablet is so small, this difference can be overcome by flicking a switch from "ultra" to "medium".

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I agree with Peggy. I think she understands the problems and points I made. Moving to mobile devices is a desirable thing, but she and I beleive the cost is prohibitive and the return on investment questionable. It is too soon for the Lab to do more than plan, learn, and experiement at this point.

While the Lab is moving more processes to the servers, rendering the world is not one of them. Moving the world to the mobile devices means a significant portion of a potential 192+ terabytes of data has to transer to the devices. Most plans limit one to 10gb per month. For many users that covers about 10 days of use. I can't see that working for most users. I suspect the Lab cannot see it either. 

The power needed to render is mostly there in the Microsoft RISC Surface devices. But, that tech is not selling well. I think Peggy is right in saying 3 to 5 years is needed for the tech to reach a point where it can carry SL type applications.

While you may remain convinenced yours is a good idea who's time is now, it seems those putting money into the implementing it are taking a more cautious approach.

 

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