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Melita Magic

Has everyone read the TOS lately?

48 posts in this topic

The current TOS may be found here.

 

I saw more than one statement in the current TOS, upon reading it today, that seems to contradict positions held within various debates in these forums. I also see violations of same constantly in SL. No, that doesn't mean I AR all of them, or even most; frankly I doubt they have enough staff to keep up with it all, since most of it is 'common knowledge' such as many skin stores having full frontal nudity in their ads on G land. I'm not even in world much any more and when I do, my 'to do list' is always long. Nor do I shop in world often, any more, because most of the current content outstrips my computer.

One thing that does bother me a lot personally, is ad spam. And it is indeed in TOS as a violation.

This is under a list of 'shall nots:'

"(ii) Post or transmit unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, or promotional materials, that are in the nature of "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation that Linden Lab considers to be of such nature;"

In the U.S. there are 'opt in' laws. I'm not completely certain, so an expert may feel free to correct me. ;) But, aside from past customers, who still have a right to 'opt out' - businesses may not spam or send ads through mail or email in hopes of snaring customers. I know - direct ad marketing makes it confusing. 

Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day.

Where this runs into the real world is that many have IMs and announcements/notices sent to email. Then it becomes email spam, for which one can serve prison time.

I wish LL would word things more emphatically or clearly on this matter. For instance I believe all drop down or clickable items which subscribe an avatar to ANY mailing list should offer "are you sure" opt out clauses. It is too easy to accidentally click on a prim, barely realize one has been added, and then have a torrent of ad spam one cannot get out from under. An 'are you sure' pop up or having to click something else to confirm, would help combat that.

Also, EVERY ad sent should contain an "opt out" clause, since that is the LAW for email spam. Most merchants do not contain a direct SLurl to opt out, or any easy way to do so. They use anonymous mailers, they have huge stores that rez slowly, with hard to find clickable panels to opt out of their subscription list. Their profiles typically contain rules about how to or not to contact them - or forbid contacting them at all. In real life, all of that would be contrary to opt out laws in the U.S. as I understand them.

There are multiple violations of the Machinima policy on youtube for just one instance. I highly doubt permission was granted by avatars who do not even seem to be aware they are being filmed, but whose avatar names are clearly visible. Also I know not all machinima artists ask permission. I had a bunch show up at my park once while I was trying to decorate it. I was told to get out of the way. I didn't say anything, but it was annoying. I was fairly certain it was against the TOS for machinima. Turns out, it was. If the land description/covenant does not mention or forbids machinima, prior land owner consent must be gotten. How many people are aware of that?

"If you wish to take a snapshot or capture machinima of content on another Resident’s land, then:

  1. For Snapshots, check whether the covenant for the land prohibits snapshots. If it does, then you need special permission from the land owner to take the snapshot. If it allows snapshots or doesn’t address them, then you do not need special permission from the land owner as long asyou comply with any terms that may be in the covenant.
  2. For Machinima, check whether the covenant for the land allows machinima. If it does not or doesn’t address machinima, then you need special permission from the land owner to capture machinima. If it allows machinima, then you do not need special permission from the land owneras long as you comply with any terms that may be in the covenant."

I've quoted, in another topic, the bit from the Maturity Ratings guidelines in TOS, about not disseminating images of nudity to minors. That not only is in TOS but technically speaking? One could do jail time for that, as well. Is the Justice Dept. going to busy themselves pursuing that? Likely not, but why are people hedging their bets on that? Just move your shops to M or A land.

There is also a bit about the misuse of bots. Notice it doesn't only forbid bots for the use of camping but also if their use is a drain on the sim resources:

"While we support the use of scripted agents ("bots") in Second Life, we draw the line when it comes to bots that cause an unreasonable load on our systems or on the regions in which they operate, or where their behavior negatively impacts other residents. Misuse of bots is a violation of this policy. Attempting to gain an unfair advantage in the Second Life search tools, including but not limited to the use of bots or camping for that purpose, is a violation of this policy and (for non-mainland estates) of the Terms of Service."

And this 'shall not' bit from the main TOS page:

"(iii) Use robots or other automated means to increase traffic to any Virtual Land;"

I'm still reading but it seems there is much in there that many of us are ill informed about. Might be good to brush up on the TOS. For everyone's sakes. 

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I have read the TOS a few times don't really care about the TOS much I just use common sense, and not do illegal things, or well at least you know COYA when you have to actually do something.

SPAM,I hate it I know there are laws about Spam emails but for starters I get spam emails about Viaga and Pharmacy all the time with no way to opt-out. In Second Life for example I know about the merchants and owners or scripted objects they buy which registers subscribes people without agreement to a spam list I hate this and would appricate me having to click the subscribe button to join their group, or be asked first.

TOS in a BOX, Violation of Intellectual Property Rights, or TOS buying items.

People say disclaimers in profiles mean nothing so I say your FULL perm texture or Sounds or whatever you are selling mean nothing allow me to explain.

While I respect the merchants who have Intellectual Property rights and have no intention of buying your content or giving it away full permissions I do debate the legal matter that you sold them to me with full permissions then tell me that by buying I agree to the Terms OF Service, or Terms OF Sale after buying. I was not legally bound to any contract with you, and just a statement in a NoteCard or on the market place isn't legal. Now if Linden Lab would act on a DMCA take down request if reuploaded and given out full perms its likely but if a person used your UUID's on the textures you uploaded full perms and gave full perms its likely they could counter file and file a report for false statements meaning it would have to be debated in a court.

Machima, or Videos.

On my computer I will do anything I please take snapshots anywhere I please, or video, maybe even audio there is nothing to stop me from doing such. Generally I don't do such without a reason, while I might be breaking Linden Lab TOS there is no official way for Linden Lab to prove that I have taken a snapshot or video unless I start harassment of people in Second Life with posting links and such in which they could suspend/ban an account for any reason or no reason at their own jurisdiction. However video posted to YouTube, Twitter, or MySpace, you would have to take it up with them, and to be honest I have filed complaints on these sites for harassment and as long as the video doesnt contain Nudity, or Real Life information just Avatar Names they actually will not remove the video without a court order and its not in LL's jurisdiction so 99% of the time nothing will happen.

Lets just say that while I do not like breaking the TOS I have broken the TOS and I admit nothing to hide, I exposed groups of Griefers on YouTube, and constantly keep a list updated on google about people who are illegally CopyBotting, Sim Owners who allow it, and such. I am not the only one doing it I do have a few friends who help. However when we post we post their User Names, and Anonymously so there is not removal off the search engine therefore anyone who searches their Second Life name will be able to find their history and connections with such people its a simple concept and a good way to get the news around, however as it is done anonymously there is nothing that links me back to it in SL besides my word. Keep in mind this only happens to the bad griefers, and people supporting them so 99% of the time no one really cares except in a few special cirumstances.

Sexual Content & Nudity.

Linden Lab should be doing more to protect minors from this game I started SL when I was 17 years old I knew the anatomy so to speak and I knew what adult content was but what gets me is those who are younger than this age in Second Life, no Age Verification, & people who do Age Play its just sick. I believe that by Law Linden Lab should be required to verify Age or ID of each persons account and content should be sorted out between G/M/A This would mean that Linden Lab actually tries their best to keep Teens in their own rated land and so on. It should be no different than a BAR in Real Life that requires ID to enter, or to purchase alchol.

Bots

Not all bots are bad so to speak I find bots in games to be great when used with API's or used for good purposes without wearing laggy items or such bots can serve many great functions 1-2 bots on a large parcel in main land isn't so bad. However there should not be bot restrictions on Privately owned sims as this should be up to the sim owner.

To me and I have said it Since my account was Hacked by a known Griefer Group.

Linden Lab in my opinion doesn't seem to care much about Second Life anymore, I don't know if I am wrong but it seems like they could be doing much more for the residents, as well as be making more profit off subscriptions and such. Second Life is old TRUE, But it could be updated more to provide a better experience, and More security could be added for sure to make sure accounts do not become compromised along with backup of peoples inventories and such. LL seems to be just breaking Second Life more and more since I started SL in 08 I have seen many dumb things done.

1. Not require ID or age verification to get into an adult sim just say you are over 18?
You used to be required to show ID.

2. Last Names.
Linden Lab removed last names now people have to be like XXBobThe Avatar XXXX just to get a name they like then use display names?

3. Lack of Security features compared to all MMORPG's on the market today as I have explained quite a bit.

4. Not keeping a backup of peoples inventories.

5. Spyware on the grid.

6. Griefers Galore?

Change IP, Spoof Mac Address, Swap out modem to DSL connection, Grief and crash 50 sims get banned repeat all day.
Do this in someone elses name for the laughs, I know because a griefer did this to me.

PROFIT???

I mean come on I am sure residents can think of more but where is the CEO & Big cheese here. It honestly seems like Linden LabHas became as bad as Gamers First,and I know I could certainly do a lot better if I was running this company its too bad I don't have the millions to hire devs and start my own Grid like Second Life or even better because I would. These mistakes should have never happend some of these changes were stupid and pointless.

 

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

I have read the TOS a few times don't really care about the TOS much....

TOS in a BOX, Violation of Intellectual Property Rights, or TOS buying items.

People say disclaimers in profiles mean nothing so I say your FULL perm texture or Sounds or whatever you are selling mean nothing allow me to explain.

While I respect the merchants who have Intellectual Property rights and have no intention of buying your content or giving it away full permissions I do debate the legal matter that you sold them to me with full permissions then tell me that by buying I agree to the Terms OF Service, or Terms OF Sale after buying. I was not legally bound to any contract with you, and just a statement in a NoteCard or on the market place isn't legal.
Now if Linden Lab would act on a DMCA take down request if reuploaded and given out full perms its likely but if a person used your UUID's on the textures you uploaded full perms and gave full perms its likely they could counter file and file a report for false statements meaning it would have to be debated in a court.

There is a big difference between a ignorant disclaimer that states you are going to break a provision of TOS and a user license. A disclaimer is a statement that some provision of the TOS does not apply to you.  You can't agree to TOS and then later decide some of it doesn't apply to you.  User licenses are not disclaimers,  They are licenses that spell out how you can use a product and totally allowed by the TOS.  Allow me to show you what the TOS clearly states:

"You retain any and all Intellectual Property Rights you already hold under applicable law in Content you upload, publish, and submit to or through the Servers, Websites, and other areas of the Service, subject to the rights, licenses, and other terms of this Agreement, including any underlying rights of other users or Linden Lab in Content that you may use or modify."

"You agree that by uploading, publishing, or submitting any Content to any publicly accessible areas of the Service, you hereby grant each user of Second Life a non-exclusive license to access the User Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content In-World or otherwise on the Service solely as permitted by you through your interactions with the Service under these Terms of Service. This license is referred to as the "User Content License," and the Content being licensed is referred to as "User Content."

"Your interactions with the Service" may include use of the Second Life permissions system and the copy, modify, and transfer settings for indicating how other users may use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, or perform your Content In-World subject to these Terms of Service. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Content must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service."

All bolding is mine

No where in the TOS does it say you are required or restricted to only use the copy/mod/transfer system?.  As long as your license does not conflict with the TOS you can specify any terms you want because you are the sole owner of the IP. Even LL acknowledges this by having a USER LICENSE as an option on permissions on MP.

Further when you buy something in SL you don't own the item you only have a right to use it under the terms of the license you buy.

You acknowledge that when you receive a User Content License you receive only licensing and use rights: You therefore do not acquire ownership of any copies of the Content, or transfer of any copyright or other Intellectual Property Rights in the Content. You acknowledge that with respect to the use of the words "Buy" and "Sell" as used in this Agreement and throughout the Service in the context of User Content: (a) the term "Sell" means "to grant a User Content License in exchange for Linden dollars or other consideration in accordance with the Terms of Service," (b) the term "Buy" or "Purchase" means "to receive a User Content License in exchange for Linden dollars or other consideration in accordance with the Terms of Service," and © the terms "Buyer," "Seller," "Sale" and "Purchaser" and similar terms have corresponding meanings to their root terms. This includes User Content that may be Bought or Sold on the Second Life Marketplace web site."

I do agree with you though that if you are not made aware of a User License prior to purchase that it probably would not hold up in court.  However, if a merchant notifies you in the listing in MP, or by a sign in the shop that there is one, you are bound by it.  Generally they spell it out on the Listing on MP, or have it available in their shop for you to read prior to purchase if it is a concern for you.  And yes it is legal if the license is stated in the MP listing or a notecard.  It is even legal to say there is a User License available for inspection at (name of place or website) and that you should read it prior to purchase.  In RL you don't see warranties and other legal documents related to a product tacked up on the shelf. They are available though somewhere, generally the service desk, where you can read them prior to purchase.  Perfectly legal in most cases.

__________________________________________________________________________________

GothGirl Demonia wrote:

On my computer I will do anything I please take snapshots anywhere I please, or video, maybe even audio there is nothing to stop me from doing such. Generally I don't do such without a reason, while I might be breaking Linden Lab TOS there is no official way for Linden Lab to prove that I have taken a snapshot or video unless I start harassment of people in Second Life with posting links and such in which they could suspend/ban an account for any reason or no reason at their own jurisdiction.

__________________________________________________________________________________

So your standard is that it is OK to break TOS as long as you don't get caught.  I am also sure LL could prove you took a snapshot or video too if they chose to pursue it.

__________________________________________________________________________________

GothGirl Demonia wrote:

Lets just say that while I do not like breaking the TOS I have broken the TOS and I admit nothing to hide, I exposed groups of Griefers on YouTube, and constantly keep a list updated on google about people who are illegally CopyBotting, Sim Owners who allow it, and such. I am not the only one doing it I do have a few friends who help. However when we post we post their User Names, and Anonymously so there is not removal off the search engine therefore anyone who searches their Second Life name will be able to find their history and connections with such people its a simple concept and a good way to get the news around, however as it is done anonymously there is nothing that links me back to it in SL besides my word. Keep in mind this only happens to the bad griefers, and people supporting them so 99% of the time no one really cares except in a few special circumstances.

_________________________________________________________________________________

If you break TOS yourself how can you justify your vigilante activities regarding others that break TOS?  Through your own post here and other's you have made you admit to only conforming to the TOS that is convenient to you

Sim owners are not required to be police when it comes to TOS and you have no way of knowing with any certainty they know about the activity anyway.  If you came to me claiming it was going on in my sim why would I take the word of a known vigilante who breaks TOS herself for that?  The only way I'd believe it would be to gather my own evidence or see verifiable evidence from an impeccable source.  Then and only then would I boot them.  Don't get m e wrong, I am totally against this myself and anyone that supports it.  I just believe in actual evidence not hearsay from a questionable source.

Who are you to decide who the 'bad griefers' are and what on earth is a good griefer?  Griefers are griefers and should all be dealt with the same.  If you are the land owner defend you land from them within TOS,  Then they should be reported to the real authorities not some group of self appointed vigilantes.

Vigilantes are as bad as griefers in my book and there ought to be a specific prohibition against them in the TOS, even though the rules of conduct could be used in many cases to AR them.

I am sorry this post is so long but I couldn't let you post this without pointing out the ways you are very misguided.  You really should pay more attention to the TOS or you may find yourself in serious trouble one day.

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"Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day."

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the TOS. I always disagree when someone asserts his right to tell a land owner what he may and may not do on his own private land (except if it creates a problem for neighbors).

If you don't like what happens on someone's private property, don't go there.

Also, if you subscribe to or join a group, you have no right to decide how often the owner may use this tool.

If you find there is too much spam to suit you, leave

 

 

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If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave
 

For group notices, that's fine, but I've had trouble unsubscribing to scripted messaging lists. I've never succeeded in making the IMs stop by blocking these things (not sure why not), and sometimes the devices themselves are hidden away on parcels that ban public entry and/or are protected by security orbs, so there's no way to touch them to unsubscribe, and whatever "remote control" I must have originally touched to register my subscription is nowhere to be found. The only way I've been able to get myself off some of those lists was to hint to the owner that I'd been reading the ToS.

I do think a landowner should be able to greet new arrivals by script, even without the person actively requesting the greeting. Although it doesn't seem spam, exactly, to greet them again on each visit, that certainly does make the location appear very bush-league and newbie-centric. (Also, just in passing, anybody using a script that still sends llInstantMessage() to avatars on arrival, instead of llRegionSayTo(), should really update. It's not going to lag the sim to death or anything, but there's no reason not to make a little more headroom for other scripts to run when the sim is lagging for other reasons.)

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Pamela Galli wrote:

"Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day."

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the TOS. I always disagree when someone asserts his right to tell a land owner what he may and may not do on his own private land (except if it creates a problem for neighbors).

If you don't like what happens on someone's private property,
don't go there.

Also, if you subscribe to or join a group, you have no right to decide how often the owner may use this tool.

If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave

 

 

Some merchants have lists that you "subscribe" to automatically by buying something, including on the marketplace, or even when you receive a gift from someone else, and don't tell you that this is putting you on a list or give you the option to decline. I think some places even automatically add you to the subscriber list when you show up. These merchants typically use a system that has no way of unsubscribing at that merchant themselves - you need to go the store of the manufacturer of the spam-o-matic customer relations facilitator and find a terminal to be taken off of it.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave
 

For group notices, that's fine, but I've had trouble unsubscribing to scripted messaging lists. I've never succeeded in making the IMs stop by blocking these things (not sure why not), and sometimes the devices themselves are hidden away on parcels that ban public entry and/or are protected by security orbs, so there's no way to touch them to unsubscribe, and whatever "remote control" I must have originally touched to register my subscription is nowhere to be found. The only way I've been able to get myself off some of those lists was to hint to the owner that I'd been reading the ToS.

I do think a landowner should be able to greet new arrivals by script, even without the person actively requesting the greeting. Although it doesn't seem
spam
, exactly, to greet them again on each visit, that certainly does make the location appear very bush-league and newbie-centric. (Also, just in passing, anybody using a script that still sends llInstantMessage() to avatars on arrival, instead of llRegionSayTo(), should really update. It's not going to lag the sim to death or anything, but there's no reason not to make a little more headroom for other scripts to run when the sim is lagging for other reasons.)

If you can subscribe to a group (by touching a kiosk), you can usually unsubscribe the same way; if you cannot unsubscribe, and the list owner refuses to unsubscribe you, at that point, and not before, does it become unwanted spam.

 

Lots of people do not like to be greeted in any way in a store; that does not mean that their preference should be enforeced by TOS.  It means they should not go to that store.

 

ETA:  I have found it easy to mute the owner of a spam-send or the object itself. 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Pamela Galli wrote:

"Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day."

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the TOS. I always disagree when someone asserts his right to tell a land owner what he may and may not do on his own private land (except if it creates a problem for neighbors).

If you don't like what happens on someone's private property,
don't go there.

Also, if you subscribe to or join a group, you have no right to decide how often the owner may use this tool.

If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave

 

 

Some merchants have lists that you "subscribe" to automatically by buying something, including on the marketplace, or even when you receive a gift from someone else, and don't tell you that this is putting you on a list or give you the option to decline. I think some places even automatically add you to the subscriber list when you show up. These merchants typically use a system that has no way of unsubscribing at that merchant themselves - you need to go the store of the manufacturer of the
spam-o-matic
customer relations facilitator and find a terminal to be taken off of it.

Well Theresa I specifically stated that I was addressing people who had subscribed to a list, not who were placed by someone else. Those are two completely different things.

I am addressing instances in which someone goes to someone's land or subscribes to someone's list, and then wants to dictate how the land or list  is used. 

--||-

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

I have read the TOS a few times don't really care about the TOS much..............................

 

No wonder you have so many problems in SL!

 


......... much I just use common sense,


 

There is a big difference between "common sense" and "good sense."  A very big difference.

 


............and not do illegal things

 

 

I'm glad to hear you've stopped hacking

 


.............or well at least you know COYA when you have to actually do something.

 

Maybe if you quit making up your own rules you have a lot less problems.

 

 

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I was talking with a friend the other day about "griefing" and I made the comment, "there is a difference between being annoying and being a Griefer."

I will say there are a lot of annoying things in SL. 

A few of them, which I will agree are in violation of the TOS, I would love to see LL be more specific about, maybe by way of giving examples.  For instance, adding some one to your subscription list just because they visited your store would be one.

Landmark givers annoy the hell out of me.  My feeling is that if someone is smart enough to get to your location, they are also smart enough to know how to make a Landmark.

Also, I do believe that it is possible to script these landmark, notecard, etc givers to remember that you've already been there.  As well as to set timers in them so I at least have a few seconds to rez before being inundated with them.

But going back to my opening statement, we all have our pet peeves, things that we find annoying.  Sometimes it is very clear when something crosses the line.  Other times it is not as clear. 

Sadly some practices will not end unless LL acts decisively on them.  After sharing a few choice words with someone who had spammed a group with an advertisement to their store I said to them, "Spamming a group is a guaranteed way that people will not come to your store."  He laughed at me and said,  "That's what you think." 

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GothGirl Demonia wrote:

I have read the TOS a few times don't really care about the TOS much I just use common sense, and not do illegal things, or well at least you know COYA when you have to actually do something.

Common sense is useless. There are rules, this is not an anarchy. So whether or not you like the rules or agree with them - you have to follow them. Even when it flies in the face of so-called "common sense" (which is nothing but another word for cultural bias).

 

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I think someone can have a kind of common sense when it comes to the internet and online worlds, because there is not such varity as their might be cultures. So anybody with a normal brain can come to the point where its easy to follow the TOS, because most of it is easy to understand.

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Melita Magic wrote:

 

In the U.S. there are 'opt in' laws. I'm not completely certain, so an expert may feel free to correct me.
;)
But, aside from past customers, who still have a right to 'opt out' - businesses may not spam or send ads through mail or email in hopes of snaring customers. I know - direct ad marketing makes it confusing.

You want to look up the 'Can Spam' act. Funny name, but its an anti-spam law. The short of it is not marketing until they opt-in, and you have to provide certain things on every mailer:

A RL physical address

For email, a link that is functional that will unsubscribe people or let them opt-out of that ad campaign (if they want to still get mailers you have for other product lines for example).

A RL phone number.

- This applies to all online advertising. I am not sure about the rules for physical advertising, they might also be opt-in now. I have noticed in the last decade that most stores now ask people aggressively if they want to be on their mailing list, and my guess is this might be why. But keep in mind that those lists at your local dept store - those are both physical and email.

 

Anytime you get mail that is not from an opt-in, they're in violation of that law... which has stiff penalties.

But also again be aware that many people sign forms to join such lists without paying attention... BUT that 'unsub me' link is required to be functional by law. The mailing service my company uses does not even let us handle this part - none of our mailers will be sent out by their service unless we include a code snippet in the mailer. That snippet adds in their own bit of code which puts in the unsub link and the address info: both of which we have to keep up to date in our account with them.

- If someone does the unsub, the service rips them out of our lists, not us.

 

Spam is still common, but all the people doing it are in violation of US federal law.

- If you've paid attention to spam over time since 1996 when commerce was allowed on the internet, its changed a lot. Legit companies used to spam. Content of old spam was a mix of hacking attempts, SEO cracking, and advertising.

Advertising is now gone from spam.

What you get -looks like- an ad, but its really designed to hack something, create false SEO data so the real client can move up in google and bing without paying for it, or to create illegit clicks and impressions for people who get paid whenever someone clicks something.

Real advertisers, working with real legit registered businesses, won't touch spamming with a 10-foot pole - it puts them at too much risk of bad publicity and litigation.

 

Just because SL is "inside a video game" does not mean it is outside the laws of the US... so SL spammers could be sued if someone were willing to push that case forward...

 

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Syo Emerald wrote:

I think someone can have a kind of common sense when it comes to the internet and online worlds, because there is not such varity as their might be cultures. So anybody with a normal brain can come to the point where its easy to follow the TOS, because most of it is easy to understand.

And yet everytime we have one of these discussions - nobody agrees with anyone on what is right and proper...

- There is no such thing as common sense. Only cultural sense.

 

 

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Melita Magic wrote:

 

There are multiple violations of the
on youtube for just one instance. I highly doubt permission was granted by avatars who do not even seem to be aware they are being filmed, but whose avatar names are clearly visible. Also I know not all machinima artists ask permission. I had a bunch show up at my park once while I was trying to decorate it. I was told to get out of the way. I didn't say anything, but it was annoying. I was fairly certain it was against the TOS for machinima. Turns out, it was. If the land description/covenant does not mention or forbids machinima, prior land owner consent must be gotten. How many people are aware of that?

You should have just done some selective banning. Not all of them, but like every third one - so that they'd be in a state of jumbled mess over it.

If people tell you to get out of the way on your own land... they kinda need a hard boot to the butt...

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

If people tell you to get out of the way on your own land... they kinda need a hard boot to the butt...

 

LOL yeah...I've learned since then (or maybe because of then.) :)

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Just because SL is "inside a video game" does not mean it is outside the laws of the US... so SL spammers could be sued if someone were willing to push that case forward...

 

Exactly. Thank you! And thanks for all the great info. 

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

"Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day."

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the TOS. I always disagree when someone asserts his right to tell a land owner what he may and may not do on his own private land (except if it creates a problem for neighbors).

If you don't like what happens on someone's private property,
don't go there.

Also, if you subscribe to or join a group, you have no right to decide how often the owner may use this tool.

If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave

 

 

Well Pamela exactly how am I supposed to know to not go to a store (as you say in a later post) because they will spam me - until after it has happened? And then it is too late.

I am not sure if you disagree with what I said or with what you THINK I said.

For instance I didn't mention pop ups. I was talking about being subscribed to something accidentally or even against my knowledge or will, and then being relentlessly spammed. As for clubs, again, how to predict who will spam like that before going?

I wasn't talking about opt IN situations, such as joining a group. One can turn off notices, although that does not stop the incessant ads in group chat IMs which some groups send as a different form of ad spam. Yes, one can then leave the group. But is this what merchants want their customers to do? Do any merchants actually think their customers LIKE spam? All you are likely doing is turning people off and getting them to leave your group - or not go to your store, as you advise in this topic. Is that really the end goal for most advertising?

So it would seem that when it reaches the level of spam, it is counter productive.

Also you didn't seem to pay attention to the part of my post - and as Pussycat later explained very well with citations - that alerts merchants that spam to email is actually illegal. Illegal. Doesn't give you pause at all?

As to your advice "don't go, then" - aside from not being able to predict who will do this to customers, there is also the fact that many, as Qie mentioned, get people on their lists in ways we are unaware of. One can land anywhere close to a prim such people own, and be spammed from then on. I've gone to a mall and gotten spam from various shops after that, without going into any. Now how could that conceivably be construed as "legally opting in?"

And, in what I actually said (in my OP), some merchants use anonymous mailers, and most do not include a way to opt out. "Come find what you clicked on" is NOT sufficient. If they don't recall it was probably a year or more ago, or they clicked it by accident. My 'are you sure' (click to join) clause could take care of that second situation. Is it an accident that many shops put the sub o join panel right next to the panel with a free gift in it, or a hunt hint? While the shop is rezzing, it's highly likely many will subscribe by accident.

Again, all communications also MUST by U.S. law contain an 'opt out' option. In the case of SL it would seem the best way would be to include a SLurl to the exact location of your sub-o panel, or other clickable panel one can use to opt out with. Or, have an alt to which people can send opt out requests - and make sure to honor those.

This isn't about my personal opinion, though that's probably obvious; it is about the SL TOS and the U.S. law on the matter. That's what I'm trying to make known.

That's as much for your protection as your customers'. And again, I was NOT talking about situations in which people had purposely opted in, such as sub-o or group join, even though I still think those are abused with too much spam, much of the time. I never said the amount of spam was against TOS by itself. (It might be, if it's an insane amount.) I guess that's how you took it.

ETA: Nor was I 'telling people what to do on their own land' but why would you want to annoy customers if there is another way? And if a shop or public place is set up for visitors, don't they matter too? It wasn't about telling people what to do on their land, though. Frankly I don't care what they do on their land. But when someone spams my email and my IM and my avatar with non stop ads, that isn't their land any more - it's my land, my avatar, my email. Thanks.

ETA again: And, irony of ironies, while I was on this forum typing against spam, the forum itself was hit by several spammers. They were even clever enough to lock anyone out of the topic so we can't report it. Lol

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Pamela Galli wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:


If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave
 

For group notices, that's fine, but I've had trouble unsubscribing to scripted messaging lists. I've never succeeded in making the IMs stop by blocking these things (not sure why not), and sometimes the devices themselves are hidden away on parcels that ban public entry and/or are protected by security orbs, so there's no way to touch them to unsubscribe, and whatever "remote control" I must have originally touched to register my subscription is nowhere to be found. The only way I've been able to get myself off some of those lists was to hint to the owner that I'd been reading the ToS.

I do think a landowner should be able to greet new arrivals by script, even without the person actively requesting the greeting. Although it doesn't seem
spam
, exactly, to greet them again on each visit, that certainly does make the location appear very bush-league and newbie-centric. (Also, just in passing, anybody using a script that still sends llInstantMessage() to avatars on arrival, instead of llRegionSayTo(), should really update. It's not going to lag the sim to death or anything, but there's no reason not to make a little more headroom for other scripts to run when the sim is lagging for other reasons.)

If you can subscribe to a group (by touching a kiosk), you can usually unsubscribe the same way; if you cannot unsubscribe, and the list owner refuses to unsubscribe you,
at that point
, and not before, does it become unwanted spam.

 

Lots of people do not like to be greeted in any way in a store; that does not mean that their preference should be enforeced by TOS.  It means
they should not go to that store.

 

ETA:  I have found it easy to mute the owner of a spam-send or the object itself. 

Well that IS the TOS as well as the U.S. law about spam, Pamela. That's the key point here.

As for greeting - it's possible to chat that in local, rather than have numerous pop ups for greeting, group join offer, landmark offer, etc. when someone walks in. But that wasn't what I meant by spam, nor do I think did anyone else. It's just a nicer way to greet a customer - from a customer's point of view.

Think of this as free market research if you wish.

Muting the sender or object does not usually work. Not when they use an automated device, or an anonymous mailer. And not if one hasn't logged in to SL in a while, and the objects were already delivered to their inventory in their absence. 

Trust me, if I go to a shop that begins spamming me soon after, I do what I can about it. (It is not as easy to 'click to unsub' if I bought something there four years ago, the shop is since gone, and the person is currently sending spam for new products, from an alt. That's happened too.) What I and some others have detailed makes clear you can't always do something about it. That is part of the problem. The other part is that often these merchants are breaking TOS or even the RL law. 

Telling people to avoid going most places isn't a real solution. 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

Sadly some practices will not end unless LL acts decisively on them.  After sharing a few choice words with someone who had spammed a group with an advertisement to their store I said to them, "Spamming a group is a guaranteed way that people will not come to your store."  He laughed at me and said,  "That's what you think." 

You've made a lot of good points as have many others.

That attitude is mostly what I run into as well. Merchants each seem to think we should love and be honored by the many note cards and landmarks. ;)

 

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Melita Magic wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

"Still, I believe that to be in better compliance with this section of the SL TOS, merchants in world should NOT spam everyone who walks in their shop; and should keep ads sent even to subscribers to a modest amount. Perhaps once weekly at most. This would also include clubs, who sometimes 'spam' with several 'announcements' in IM and notices several times per day."

 

I completely disagree with your interpretation of the TOS. I always disagree when someone asserts his right to tell a land owner what he may and may not do on his own private land (except if it creates a problem for neighbors).

If you don't like what happens on someone's private property,
don't go there.

Also, if you subscribe to or join a group, you have no right to decide how often the owner may use this tool.

If you find there is too much spam to suit you,
leave

 

 

Well Pamela exactly
how am I supposed to know to not go to a store (as you say in a later post) because they will spam me - until after it has happened? And then it is too late.

I am not sure if you disagree with what I said or with what you THINK I said.

For instance I didn't mention pop ups. I was talking about being subscribed to something accidentally or even against my knowledge or will, and then being relentlessly spammed. As for clubs, again, how to predict who will spam like that before going?

I wasn't talking about opt IN situations, such as joining a group. One can turn off notices, although that does not stop the incessant ads in group chat IMs which some groups send as a different form of ad spam. Yes, one can then leave the group. But is this what merchants want their customers to do? Do any merchants actually think their customers LIKE spam? All you are likely doing is turning people off and getting them to leave your group - or not go to your store, as you advise in this topic. Is that really the end goal for most advertising?

So it would seem that when it reaches the level of spam, it is counter productive.

Also you didn't seem to pay attention to the part of my post - and as Pussycat later explained very well with citations - that alerts merchants that spam to email is actually illegal. Illegal. Doesn't give you pause at all?

As to your advice "don't go, then" - aside from not being able to predict who will do this to customers, there is also the fact that many, as Qie mentioned, get people on their lists in ways we are unaware of. One can land anywhere close to a prim such people own, and be spammed from then on. I've gone to a mall and gotten spam from various shops after that, without going into any. Now how could that conceivably be construed as "legally opting in?"

And, in what I actually said (in my OP), some merchants use anonymous mailers, and most do not include a way to opt out. "Come find what you clicked on" is NOT sufficient. If they don't recall it was probably a year or more ago, or they clicked it by accident. My 'are you sure' (click to join) clause could take care of that second situation. Is it an accident that many shops put the sub o join panel right next to the panel with a free gift in it, or a hunt hint? While the shop is rezzing, it's highly likely many will subscribe by accident.

Again, all communications also MUST by U.S. law contain an 'opt out' option. In the case of SL it would seem the best way would be to include a SLurl to the exact location of your sub-o panel, or other clickable panel one can use to opt out with. Or, have an alt to which people can send opt out requests - and make sure to honor those.

This isn't about my personal opinion, though that's probably obvious; it is about the SL TOS and the U.S. law on the matter. That's what I'm trying to make known.

That's as much for your protection as your customers'. And again, I was NOT talking about situations in which people had purposely opted in, such as sub-o or group join, even though I still think those are abused with too much spam, much of the time. I never said the amount of spam was against TOS by itself. (It might be, if it's an insane amount.) I guess that's how you took it.

ETA: Nor was I 'telling people what to do on their own land' but why would you want to annoy customers if there is another way? And if a shop or public place is set up for visitors, don't they matter too? It wasn't about telling people what to do on their land, though. Frankly I don't care what they do on their land. But when someone spams my email and my IM and my avatar with non stop ads, that isn't their land any more - it's my land, my avatar, my email. Thanks.

ETA again: And, irony of ironies, while I was on this forum typing against spam, the forum itself was hit by several spammers. They were even clever enough to lock anyone out of the topic so we can't report it. Lol

Melita, if you cannot bear the risk of going to a store that might spam you, then I guess you would have to investigate somehow before going. But it is not against TOS for someone to spam people who come to their stores. 

As I said, joining a group and being added to a list are two entirely different things. The latter is unsolicited spam, which is ARable. I almost always AR if I get any kind of unsolicited message, as I hate having my work interrupted to read it. But if you join a list then you do risk getting more notices than you want, in which case you should mute or unsubscribe/join

 

Your OP was about reading th E TOS, not about  preferences.

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Melita Magic wrote:

 

That attitude is mostly what I run into as well. Merchants each seem to think we should love and be honored by the many note cards and landmarks.
;)

 

Thank you for this thread, Melita.  I have not read the TOS in a long time.  I see parts of it quoted in answers to various questions but hadn't seen other parts that you posted since probably the first time I read it when I joined SL. :matte-motes-bashful:

I detest spam to the max.  This is one merchant who agrees with the above statement, with the caveat that it is not the merchant community as a whole, just a portion of it who engages in this practice, imo.  On the one hand, as a merchant I do understand the need for marketing and keeping one's items/store in the public SL eye, as it were - and the competition is fierce.  On the other hand, it drives me nuts to log into SL and have to spend the first 5 minutes clicking through a bunch of notices or landmarks before I can do anything else.

One could say, "Then drop those groups."  To clarify, I'm not talking about individual store groups, I'm talking about groups that merchants join to be able to send notices to prospective customers in a given genre, ie home furnishings, clothing, building components, etc.  Each group has rules to which the merchants must adhere, including a maximum number of notices one may send out per week or month.  Of course the larger groups with 100's if not close to 1,000's of merchant members are going to have a lot of notices; however,  I have noticed something - there is a small group of merchants within these groups (the ones with more liberal posting rules) that post something every day! Or close to it. Plus, if one opens the note card, there can be 20 items on it - no photos, just name of item, how "awesome" it is, and the price. This literally makes my head spin.  Sure, this gets the merchant's name out there, but for me, it gets their name out there for it to become imbedded in my brain to think "I'm never going to that store!"

It's really a Catch-22 for merchants, in general.  Too many notices and one risks turning people off; too few and one may lose some business.  Then there's the issue with especially people who enjoy shopping for clothes - some of them thrive on being notified of every new release under the sun; for many that is their main SL activity and that is their preogative.

How I personally deal with the group spam is that I have the majority of the large groups turned off, both for group chat since I didn't join to talk, as well as notices.  Once a week or so I look into the notice archives to scan for anything that might interest me.

As for the type of welcome/info one receives when going to an establishment in world - same thing as with notices upon login - if I have to swat away a ton of blue drop-downs, landmarks, etc., I do leave, making note to not return.  Greetings & info can be done in such a way that it is not a spam-fest.  I've received one notecard from many places that then have note cards within it that address various aspects of the establishment, instead of a separate card or drop-down for each one.  I'm with Perrie on this one - if I like the place, I know how to grab my own lm, I don't need one "provided" for me.

There was a long-running thread in the Resident Answers section of the old forums that dealt with merchants helping other merchants.  The issue of some merchants automatically putting all visitors on a subscribo without their consent, much less knowledge, was discussed and pretty much disdained by the participants of that thread. (And that's another issue unto itself - I would daresay that many if not most of the merchants, club owners, etc. who do things against the ToS and/or spam out the yin-yang do not read the forums, or even know they exist, to see threads like this.)  One of the major subscribo types have a website that one can access to see if they are on any merchant lists and can then remove themselves.  I don't recall which one that was.  I'll need to do some researching but if anyone knows off-hand and can post it, that would be great. :)  Still spam, but at least one can get themselves off of it.

I've had one issue this past year that was annoying but easily dealt with.  I began receiving unsolicited notices from a merchant whose store I'd never gone to, in fact never heard of.  Later on I noticed this merchant posted occasionally in a subforum to which I regularly post. I should have AR'd the notices since I never opted in but honestly didn't think of it. I received notices from this merchant probably about 5 times before I muted the person and that seems to have stopped further notices...I hope.

Just adding my annoyance with spam from a merchant perspective as well as a customer and to again thank you for beginning this thread, Melita. :)

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There should be a ToS about certain shops REPEATEDLY sending out the same advertisement for their crap. I think the record was like receiving 5 notices in a row on the exact same advertisement. Consolidation fashion groups should really upgrade their entry requirements. It's almost always the really crappy shops repeatedly spamming notices. High quality shops have no need to even join these consolidation groups let alone spam advertisements.

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Suki Hirano wrote:

There should be a ToS about certain shops REPEATEDLY sending out the same advertisement for their crap. 

I think anyone should be able to send out an adverstisement every 5 minutes through their own subscriber or group if they want.

And if someone doesn't like it he should be able to leave that group.

But if someone adds people to a subscriber without permission, he should be ARed and have his account suspended.

Joining a group does not give anyone the right to dictate how that group is used.

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I don't know about "should" or "shouldn't" - and I dont make the TOS rules anyway so it doesn't really signify. 

But, I would think any group who sent out notices every 5 minutes, or anything like that, would witness a mass exodus.

I am thinking of a certain fashion magazine. If one were to accidentally click it, in a very laggy mall, and get subscribed, without realizing that; and then to get not only that magazine but ad spam from countless fashion merchants (maybe that is what Suki meant, even), then in my opinion, that is a careless setup. 

Careless on the customer's part? Maybe. 

Careless on the senders' parts? Certainly. Why? 

Because every ad which has potential to reach email must by U.S. law contain a convenient way to unsubscribe. And most ads in SL do not.

Convenient = direct SLurl to the unsub-o location. 

Yes, groups are easy to leave. But purposely joined groups are never what I was talking about with amount of spam; only that it still must contain the convenient unsubscribe information. 

SL TOS states that each resident is subject to the laws where they reside; but, I believe this spam law also applies to where the resident resides. And the gap between "RL" and virtual closes tighter every day.

Otherwise, yes, anyone is welcome to be a nuisance to their own customers if they so choose.

 

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