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Damien Cygnet

Regulation of SL Market - When ?

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Mitsuko Kytori wrote:

So, I just need put my avatar log on and  ...

I hope second life is not only for people not work in real life ..

 

It should not be that a merchant who is in SL 24/7 gains visibility above a merchant who is logs in daily for a few hours. 

But these both merchants who log in on daily base should gain visibily above merchants who only login twice a month. And those who just login twice a month should have still more visibility then merchants who didn't show up at all during last three months.

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I think it is easy to make marketplace as other 3D marketplace. It is the first time I encounter a problem like this.

But, I can forget how LL play with vendor. But not the fact they never answer to my email and ticket.

Because I translate this by "Mitsuko for us you are nothing" it is an unbearable lack of courtesy.

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I have lived off my SL earning since 2007, with no other income source. I know how things worked very well. People claimed that Picks were gamed, but what those people didn't understand was that only Picks from people with PIOF counted in the search results. LL dropped the Picks from the search results because of some crazy situation where some1 use Nazi in the description of 1 of the Picks that linked to a merchant. LL released a blog that explain this, it's not some rumor I found.

I was gaming picks heavily when they were removed as a search factor and I have to say I have never heard this story involving the word Nazi being linked to a merchant as being the reason why picks were removed. I would like to see a link if you have it.

The reason picks were removed was because LL went out and purchased a search engine that wasn't suitable for SL. It was like shoving a square peg in a round hole. Rather than adapting the search engine to facilitate the data that existed in SL, LL took the easy way out and simply removed picks as a search factor. Picks were linked to places and could not be separated from them. Because allot of people went and edited the text related to the picks we ended up with lots of irrelevant noise cluttering up the search results. Rather than find a solution to this they just got rid of picks.

So the reason picks were removed was laziness. :matte-motes-big-grin:

 

Here it is. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Technology-General/Search-Upcoming-Release/ba-p/658375

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Mitsuko Kytori wrote:

But, I can forget how LL play with vendor. But not the fact they never answer to my email and ticket.

Because I translate this by "Mitsuko for us you are nothing" it is an unbearable lack of courtesy.

I completely agree. Tickets should be answered, within a reasonable time. Just ignoring is the worst you can do to your customers.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

They have told me that the issue they see the most is that the newbie comes in and tries some freebies, and wants something better, but when they actually spend their money, they don't like the product, or get really bad service or no service.


When it comes to service, yes, there should be more regulation in the marketplace. I think customer satisfaction will increase when supported products gain visibility above unsupported products. In my opinion should 'Is the merchant still active in SL' be a criterium for ranking in the marketplace. The last date the merchant logged into SL should play a role in ranking. The longer ago the merchant entered SL, the lower his visibility of his products on marketplace should get.

 

Well, as I'm a libertarian, I don't believe in regulations. If the search engine actually displayed the best products first, instead of the cheapest, then this would hardly be an issue. You can pretty much guarantee that anything being sold for really cheap or free is not going to get very good support. The reverse of that is, if a merchant is a making a decent amount off of a product, they will likely have very good instructions, and give very good support. If both the mp search and the inworld search were set up properly, they would be directing consumers to all the merchants that care the most, which are likely the professionals, not the freebie or cheapie sellers. This is my point about LL's decision to implement these wacky search engine results. They are shooting themself in the foot.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

If the search engine actually displayed the best products first, instead of the cheapest, then this would hardly be an issue.

 

 

 

 

And that is not a form of regulation?

 

 

Is a painting by van Gogh a better product then a painting by Rembrand?

A diamond skull by Damien Hirst is definititely more expensive then an artwork by Banksy, that he sprays on public walls in London. But does this make Hirst a better artist then Banksy? It's a different style, a different choice of material, different subjects and a different audience they seek to work for. It is hard to compare, because you have no objective standards. A lot comes to personal taste when you have to decide which artwork is better then the other.

When 'the best' for a big part depends on personal taste, how can a search engine know what the best products are?

 

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I think the better way and the most fair way is pay for a quantity of impression in homepage or category.

 

With a price per impression, it is easy, clear, all products from all vendors have the same luck. And we know what we buy in term of ads. Marketing need invest, it is true and I can understand that and I am ready to pay for that.

But pay the price as other for less result certainly not !!!

In addition, what is it more difficult to develop an obscur system based on random or pay a quantity of impression ?

For sure the pseudo random system, more easy to mask the bad side .

 

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You bring up a very good point Mitsuko. One of the most disheartening realizations about LL's method of displaying ads is that they demonstrate a severe and obvious bias toward certain people and advertisers. Let me be clear, I'm not casting angry thoughts at those that benefit from such a system. But I am calling into question the ethics of a company that would make such a system "standard".

People play the Lottery all over the world. Why? Because they know that even though their chances of winning are almost zero, they have the same chance as everyone else. The fairness, complete and utter ignorance of WHO is playing the game, based solely on random luck and happy circumstances .. the people that play the Lottery are happy to throw their money away.

But a system so obviously biased as the one LL uses to place Ads in front of customers causes an overwhelming majority to avoid them completely. In maximizing the income from a tiny handful of elite money-makers, LL has discarded the much larger income that could be had if everyone played the game.

It was said earlier in this thread that Linden Lab is a business. A business with the sole intent of making as much money as possible. But they repeatedly and reliably implement systems that have the exact opposite effect. They literally chase money away. And thus they are reduced to trying endless stupid ideas, adding features and playing dunder-headed games with the people that "pay to play" their game ... and all of it results in less and less income, and more and more abuse of the people that they hope to capitalize on most.

I am not alone in my disgust with LL's idiotic behavior, their mistreatment of all of us, and their attitude of being above reproach. I continually ask that one question that so far has never received an answer from the only people that CAN answer it ... WHY does LL continue to avoid the easy and proven methods to earn money and instead strive harder and harder to invent ploys and gimmicks that have no rationale whatsoever?

It's like watching someone drive miles and miles away from home every day, just so they can call home and say "Good morning" to their spouse. All that effort is wasted. They could simply roll over, smile nicely and say it in person. (And the ... ahem .. benefits such a personal greeting might obtain ... *GRIN*)

Basic human respect, enhanced with a realistic practicing of common business ethics, would do worlds of good in improving LL's balance sheet. Yet the money people that so clearly put immense pressure on the management to "earn the daily dollar" seem content with watching their investment spin and stagger about in a drunken stupor, never once considering how simple it would be to just "do the right thing."

It's made me revise my opinion of the money people that put their trust and dollars into LL's hands. Whereas I used to consider the opinion of those people as wise and educated, I now look at them as the blundering fools they so clearly are. Yeah, that's harsh, but it's also true.

Why would anyone with any sense trust the decisions of a Board of Directors that is content to watch their management team continue to make such obvious blunders? Why would anyone trust a management team that dismisses employees that improve customer communication? Why would an industry that lives and grows based on the brilliant insight of trendsetters put any support behind a company that seems allergic to basic common sense?

To me, the answers are obvious. They don't. They haven't. And they won't. And it's not at all about technology or innovation or even dumb luck. It's because you cannot trust a company that against all advice to the contrary continues to do exactly the wrong things ... over and over again.

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Thanks for your answer Darrius,

 

In the other side there are a method to hit very hardly the system since mesh appear. It is create an alternative to marketplace dedicated to mesh or put mesh product on already exist 3D marketplace.

For my full perm product I will make that, because it is more secure, more fair and more easy in addition compare to marketplace. And bye bye marketplace '_'

 

 

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Darrius, I don't understand how enchancements favor certain merchants over others, except that some categories are more saturated.

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A couple of years ago I was one of the people developing an alternative sales web site for Second Life. I joined the team after the site was live, but I joined as one of the primary developers. Unfortunately that site went out of business. One of the primary reasons was that it is not possible to compete with Linden Lab and the SL Marketplace.

The Marketplace has the advantage of being able to use your In-World L$ Account as the source of funds to pay for purchases. No other company or web site can compete with that; Linden Lab has it very tightly controlled and only they have access.

You may have some luck selling your products on other sites, and you might even be able to start up a competing web site, but I do not believe you will ever have the number of sales that can be achieved using the SL Marketplace.

It is a situation that serves to make the anger grow even higher. Linden Lab knows that they have the Merchants and Sellers on Second Life completely locked out of using any other web site. While I would not go so far as to call that an "unfair advantage", their use of the advantage to mistreat the Merchants and Sellers is ethically questionable.

I understand your frustration and I understand your anger. You are not alone in those feelings. But there is no reasonable or feasible way to force Linden Lab to change their behavior. Although I do not like the words, I still must give the same advice many others have given over the years ... "If you don't like it, and you cannot put up with it, then your only course of action is to close your store and stop selling on the Marketplace."

Earlier in this thread, someone (I think maybe you?) mentioned that Linden Lab must be laughing when they read this thread. I think that is exactly right. It is the self-satisfied cackling of someone that knows they have rigged the game so they cannot lose, and now they derive perverse delight in watching the people yell and holler in anger .. and then go right on using the Marketplace because it's the only thing they can do.

I am the type of person that has a strong personal dislike for those in power that abuse others. I was raised by the rule that those who are stronger and better off should repay their good fortune by providing help and advantages to those less fortunate. The fact that Linden Lab abuses their position of power to squeeze money from Merchants is personally disgusting to me. But I have no recourse other than to place my faith in Karma and the belief that the abuses they visit on others today will be repaid to them many times over in the future.

Yes, they have the legal right to operate the Marketplace in this manner. But being "Legal" does not begin to make it right, it only makes it possible to do wrong things without being forced to do right. The shame is that they should have to be forced to do anything. Intelligent business people learn very early in their careers that doing the right things always has a much higher profit than doing the wrong things.

I have had the delight once in my life of watching a company I knew to be operating on the principle of "Screw them fast, screw them hard" be taken down by legal authorities. It was honestly the best 5 minute news piece I have ever witnessed. But in that case their demise did not damage any innocent people, it only removed a bad actor from the business world. However in the case of Linden Lab and the Marketplace, I am quite positive that should legal action be taken against them, the real victims would not be the people that orchestrate the abuse, but would instead be those who already suffer from its effects.

Linden Lab's management knows full well that if they were ever forced to revamp their system so that they had to deal honestly with their customers, their first action would be to ensure any damage or cost was passed from them to those self-same customers ... the very ones already paying.

Perhaps, with some good luck and maybe a visit from the "Ghost of Honest Business" visiting them some late and stormy night, they might actually reconsider their actions and begin treating people with dignity and respect. But I'll not be holding my breath waiting for that time to arrive. I'm quite sure I would be very blue in the face and stone cold by the time it came to pass.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Darrius, I don't understand how enchancements favor certain merchants over others, except that some categories are more saturated.

I've spent a very considerable amount of time refreshing pages on the Marketplace and noting which ads and which Merchants are represented most often. When you see one ad that appears 5-10 times for every appearance of any other ad, you begin to realize that that ad is receiving unfair advantage.

They weren't separate ads for separate products, each and every appearance was the same ad for the same single product. And yet those "favored" ads always receive prime positioning and much higher display rates.

I don't have a dog in that hunt btw. I don't buy enhancements for any of my products any more because I realize I don't have the cash flow or favor necessary to obtain such obvious levels of exposure. But that has also allowed me to view the ads and make careful impartial observation of the behavior .. and thus reach my conclusion.

I also have a very strong working knowledge of how to write an Ad Display algorithm that is capable of presenting ads fairly and equitably. The algorithm used on the Marketplace is nothing even close to fair and equitable. When pressed to disclose the method that IS used to choose the ads for display, the answer received in all cases is the deafening chorus of crickets.

Considering that there is no visible mechanism that would allow Merchants to pay extra for extra exposure, the only conclusion that can be logically reached is that factors hidden from view are being applied to bias the ad display frequency in a specific direction.

Of course, it's always possible that I could be wrong. All it would take is for someone in charge to publicly post the algorithm that is used .. and do so in a manner that is guaranteed to be an honest representation. But considering how long this has been going on, and how little has been said by the Marketplace Devs about the method used, I doubt anyone will be proving me wrong ... for a long LONG time.

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:


Medhue Simoni wrote:

If the search engine actually displayed the best products first, instead of the cheapest, then this would hardly be an issue.

 

 

 

 

And that is not a form of regulation?

 

 

Is a painting by van Gogh a better product then a painting by Rembrand?

A diamond skull by Damien Hirst is definititely more expensive then an artwork by Banksy, that he sprays on public walls in London. But does this make Hirst a better artist then Banksy? It's a different style, a different choice of material, different subjects and a different audience they seek to work for. It is hard to compare, because you have no objective standards. A lot comes to personal taste when you have to decide which artwork is better then the other.

When 'the best' for a big part depends on personal taste, how can a search engine know what the best products are?

 

Well, the point is really to have a system where the customers decide. In the case of Xstreet, I feel like they accomplished this. I also feel like the old search engine accomplished this also. Only the whole of the community and their input can really say what are the best products. This is great for every1. The merchant has something to guage their work by and decide what to make more of. Our current system is really just a mish mash and gives both the consumers and merchants no real good data to make decisions with.

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That's interesting Darius. I don't sit and watch the ads, but I do see extremely erratic sales that really don't make any sense at all. For example, yesterday, I had crazy sales for hours. It was nuts, kind of like old times, then all of a sudden, not 1 sale for 9 hours straight, right during what would be considered prime time. After that, about 10 pm SL time, I started getting sales again. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

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It is exactly that I try to explin in some topics in this forum.

 

I bring many proofs, and I send it to Linden Lab, with report and screenshot. Of course, no answer.

 

I am absolutly sure regulation marketplace offers a variable visibility function of economic criteria.

 

Some people laught when I write that ... okay, but I am waiting rational explanation when I show here the number of impression. And there data are provide by ... Linden Lab itself. !!!

 

 

 

 

 

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Mitsuko, noone said we dont understand what you are explaining or laughed at what you said. Almost everyone here agreed on the fact Ll should have answered to your tickets and on the fact the mp management is a big mess and buying ads in the mp doesnt worth the price it cost. The only thing i disagree with you is about the reason of this mess. i dont think its bec of favoritism but only bec of incompetence, what is for me, really worst. But for all the remaining, yes, i understood what you was saying, i agree on the main things and i often answered to you.

We all have understood you was under the shock of learning about mp enhancements and lottery. But this is not new and it works like this since long time now. You have also to understand that flooding the forum, creating same threads in different categories or repeating again and again the same thing in every thread you can find can be boring  for others (or even funny, yes, in this case at least some have surely smiled) . I understand really well your anger, And you have also to understand that shouting everywhere in the forum you will give away your items for free in the mp can be seen as a disguised advertising and advertising for creators contents are not allowed here. yes... another injustice here... since lands and destination can have advertising in the forum but not us. 

impulsivity and impetuosity are not forcelly bad for me, and can be even qualities, but when its a bit too much, it comes to be a lil boring :smileywink:

You seems to feel you re not understood, i suggest to you to reread what have been answered to you and you ll see, that a lot of posts say they understand you. But we are not LL, and i dont think that repeating again and again the same things in the forum will help to fix the pb with mp. sadly.... indeed

 

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Thanks for your answer, I really appreciate sincerely.

 

Sorry, many sorry if I bored anybody here. I don't have in mind it is an old problem. I just though it is a new problem.

 

I understand I have no future here, I launch this small market activities by pleasure no more.

Now, I have my culture, and as example in Tokyo, no car use gasoline engine because some hundreds people had the will to change the rules. Finally they won. It is a small group of people in front of big burocratic institute. And sure they had bored many people. But finally hybrid car win ...

 

It is just an example. A think in the almost empty bottle, world now unchanged from ancient times leaves that are words retain seeds in the heart .

 

I will return to my nature design.

 

 

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There is no worries Mitsuko, and you have your place here as every of us.

you wont find sm1 more conviced than me that when pp join themselves together and protest for a cause they can indeed win. The only thing is that shouting everywhere the same thing and doing it alone wont have any good effect, never. :smileyhappy: 

A fight need reflection before shouting and above all strategy and unity. :smileywink:

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To no one in particular:  Being a SL merchant is not for the faint of heart.   The outrages and abuses, from both LL and (if you sell much) irrational customers and non-customers alike, simply defy description.

 

I would still rather being doing this silly job than any other, though.

 

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Blender costs exactly 0 dollars and zero cents.   A couple of months ago there was a big give away of software for 3D modelling by Daz Studio.  No one needs to use unlicensed or illicitly obtained software for 3D modelling or animations.

 

Gimp is free.  No one needs to use unlicensed or illicitly obtained software for 2D texturing.

 

No one needs to do anything dishonest to have what they need to create for SL.

 

Approximately 6 out of 10 times, support is fairly prompt (although not necessarily supportive).  This was true for me before I had a shop, after I started a small shop, and in fact throughout my years of accessing SL.  4 out of 10 times, it takes longer than I feel it should.  I don't think the size of your shop has anything to do with it.  Some people have no shop and they still access support.

 

I'm also confused as to why you want to destroy the businesses of other SL users who have nothing to do with your support problems and who suffer the same hampered experience you do when dealing with SL.  For LL, the more free stuff, the more value added to SL for their customers.  It's only other users of SL you are hurting while doing LL a big huge favour.  So LL will be thanking you, it's only other small shop owners you are hurting. 

 

The bigger shop owners tend to have a loyal customer base they have proved their worth to (that's how they got to be big stores) who will continue (and may prefer to) pay for their stuff so even if they experience less sales, they are likely to still have a contingent of customers who want their stuff and will keep coming back for more, even if similar stuff is free.  It's the small shops trying to get established and who have not yet proved themselves to prospective customers who are most under-cut by freebies.  Not the big stores you feel are getting all the support from LL and certainly not LL themselves.

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:

 

The bigger shop owners tend to have a loyal customer base they have proved their worth to (that's how they got to be big stores) who will continue (and may prefer to) pay for their stuff so even if they experience less sales, they are likely to still have a contingent of customers who want their stuff and will keep coming back for more, even if similar stuff is free.  It's the small shops trying to get established and who have not yet proved themselves to prospective customers who are most under-cut by freebies.  Not the big stores you feel are getting all the support from LL and certainly not LL themselves.

Bingo.

 

 

(devoted user of Blender and Gimp)

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