Goodbye, Phoenix

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

A 300-500 laptop can run SL just fine in medium settings. Many places will let one get that on credit / financed.

 

And its been normal for a long time now that a computer really won't last more than 3-5 years. This is a prime reason to never buy the top end model. People with normal incomes should settle for mid-range. People on rough times can get by with careful choice of lower end systems.

This is, in the modern era, a bit like owning a car: you can get by an a 20-year old junker, but its not wise, and it is a vital necessity in modern society.

. . .

a basic computer, chosen wisely, can make that 5 year gap on a small budget.

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Ah but you're forgetting a segment of the SL population that may be larger than you think - people living on disability who are not able to work, thus retraining to something that better pays the bills is out.  I will also add in here people who have lost their jobs during the recession and either have not been able to secure another one yet (not talking about people here who aren't diligently looking) or who are under-employed to the point they are just making ends meet.

Many of those people have already cut down to bare bone necessities.

As for one should not be in SL if she cannot afford a new PC, virtual worlds are a lifeline to many shut-ins who can do online what is now impossible in RL.

You make an interesting point about purchasing a mid-range PC.  My thinking has been that by purchasing the best PC one can afford it will last longer, but I've been rethinking this and wondering if it's better to purchase less expensive PCs more often considering the hyperjumps in technology.  I'm glad you mentioned that and would enjoy hearing types of PCs (ie. basic stats) that are mid-range but would still run the V3 viewer on higher than 64m draw distance.

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I don't mean what I say to be cruel. But as a reality check.

I recognize these things are lifelines to many.

But technology won't stop for that.

Thus my note about the mid-range low priced PC.

 

I grew up in a ghetto, and I've had rough periods. I know about limited incomes. I recognize the face of that person digging through a trashcan for some hipster's castoff: its my younger self.

 

I bought my last PC in the middle of a multi-year span of unemployment. It was rough - but I knew that in this modern era, that is a vital device. Before 1996 a PC was a luxary. Even by 2000 many people could still say that. Today - its a basic household appliance needed to function. So I looked for one from a good brand with a low price.

In the past, I have bought top end machines. Their lifespan is often not any longer than the mid ranger, they're just more powerful during that time. But often this power is wasted nicety on all but extreme users.

My 2009 $350 Toshiba laptop can get about 20 fps in SL on low-mid settings... and its nearing the end of its viable for modern tech lifespan. In a year I would shopping again - if things had not improved for me. But I have an Apple desktop now, so I won't need a laptop unless I feel the need to be mobile again.

 

(Even on a nicer machine, I often keep draw distance down to 64m btw - just to be able to have more control over my visual experience. In a bit of reverse logic, I only go up high when racing along in vehicles - to preload as much of what's ahead as I can. Usually I range from 64 to 128 with particles off or at minimum. Upping things only in screenshots.)

 

[Czari Zenovka]

I appreciate your input, Pussycat, and have gleaned from other posts you've had rough times.  I think it may be a human condition that everyone will go through hard times, maybe some harder than others, sometime in their lives.

I'm now digging into blogs and researching ways to get a decent PC with what I can afford.  Starting to see that my previous assumption that high-end machines would last longer may be a fallacy, which honestly takes a huge load off my mind.  I've been thinking, "Ok, let's say I can pay x amount for a PC.  What if after spending all the money I have for this purpose, it still doesn't really improve things much?"

Your comments got me thinking and then Dillon added some specs, so this has my thinking turned around.  Re: draw distance - does anyone use higher draw distances for normal usage in SL?  Not talking about taking photos or checking how a build looks at different graphics settings.  Of course graphics settings is a whole other thing.  What are the graphics settings you all feel are most important?  I've been operating with all sliders for trees, avatars, etc. at low, and everything pretty much turned off.

 

[Paul Hexem]

By the way, despite common misconception about me, if someone came to me looking for help getting a new PC, I'd absolutely help them upgrade to something decent for as cheap as possible- even as far as step by step instructions on how to manually install components.

[solstyse]

There is a group that's been forgotten in the list of people with good reason not to upgrade theri computers. Those who's computers work well for most things that aren't second life. There are plenty of those machines out there. And if the owner thinks that the 500-600 dollar cost for a computer could be better spent on something else.... well, so be it.

See, to some of us, that smartphone that allows us to talk and text, to get updates about our rl jobs, that acts as a gps when we're on the road... I mean, we may be a small part of the population here, but to at least some of us, that matters more than sl.

Some of us are fine with our cheap apartments and our mediocre computers, but would like both to be better. So we go into the computer store, and come out empty handed because we want to save for the bigger thing. Maybe, for some of us, it's both the car and the computer showing it's age. So we're thinking, "It's just a few more weeks until I have enough to start looking for that new car to take myself to work, or I can buy a new computer right now and be happier with second life."

So are you trying to say that if Second Life isn't your first priority, then you don't belong here? Because as far as most of us are concerned, SL is one of the luxuries that we can deal with some imperfections in.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Gadget Portal wrote:

By the way, despite common misconception about me, if someone came to me looking for help getting a new PC, I'd absolutely help them upgrade to something decent for as cheap as possible- even as far as step by step instructions on how to manually install components.

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I appreciate that Gadget.

[JoJo Aurelia]

Well, it was a love affair after Emerald passed away... It served us all well. I knew it would become obsolite, so I forced myself (way back last year) to use only FS, even if it made me crazy (which it did for awhile). It was a great viewer and the people who wrote the code to get mesh running on it are to be commended. I read how difficult this was. It's understandable they need to focus on Firestorm. Thanks Phoenix team (if you're reading this) for the memories~~~

[Chuck Vintner]

It's like an old pair of shoes, sure it had holes and they got my feet wet, probably the reason I caught that cold. But doesn't make you miss them any less when you're trying to break in a new pair and get a blister on your heel.

I had taken a leave of absence from SL long before any of the problems with Emerald came to a head, and were I aware of them at the time of course I would have switched viewers, even if I didn't like what I was switching to.

Luckily by the time I came back Phoenix was already here.

[161488303349]

just go for the best graphics card you can afford. and 4MB RAM

either Nvidia or ATI cards are ok. just dont get Intel IGA gfx card is all

things like cpu processor and disk dont matter as much

+

maybe can upgrade what you got already. like see if can stick in a cheap Nvidia 230 or better gfx card. they dont use much power so maybe not have to upgrade your power supply or motherboard. best to a computer handyman shop to get down if you not sure how to do yourself

if you can then dont get any NVidia gfx crads that say less than 30 in the last two digits tho. like a 310 is worse than a 230 for example. the higher the last 2 digits the better

i got a 230M laptop and only I3 processor. it goes ok on 96m draw distance and Atmospheric shaders on the Blake Sea. can scoom round on there and not much trouble. other peoples boats takes a while to render tho sometimes if they texture heavy

it goes really slow in really really blingy places. but i dont go to many of them places anyway

can go to most clubs tho and jump round. if i go up in the sky then it goes 40-60 fps most of the time

i use official viewer all the time. but the TPVs like firestorm use the same gfx render code anyways

 

dunno if this will help

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

Here's my thinking about buying computing equipment for the best value. Let's say you're looking at three computers -

Computer A costs $300; it's the cheapest one you can get and is just barely adequate for what you need it to do.

Computer B costs $600; it's a middle-of-the-road computer that will do what you need well and has the potential to do more, but isn't the top of the performance charts.

Computer C costs $1200; it's top-end and has the best-performing parts available when you buy it. Realistically it has performance that you don't need but you're considering it for the future and for maximum service life.

With Computer A, you may find that in 2 years it's obsolete and you need something new already. Cost per year: $150

With Computer B, lets say that it becomes obsolete in five years. Cost per year: $120.

With Computer C, in five years it still has the ability to do what you need. But it's very possible that in the interim new features and architecture came out that weren't on the radar when it was built but by year eight are basically required, and this computer just can't deliver them because it wasn't made to. The extra years of performance you were trying to get aren't available, and you need to replace it in year 8. Cost per year: $150.

The trick is trying to find the level of performance that will give you the most "bang for the buck."

 

 

 

[Solar Legion]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

You make an interesting point about purchasing a mid-range PC.  My thinking has been that by purchasing the best PC one can afford it will last longer, but I've been rethinking this and wondering if it's better to purchase less expensive PCs more often considering the hyperjumps in technology.  I'm glad you mentioned that and would enjoy hearing types of PCs (ie. basic stats) that are mid-range but would still run the V3 viewer on higher than 64m draw distance.

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I have some input regarding PC specifications. I noticed this the other day on Inara Pey's

blog

. She does a great many viewer reviews; I have frequently seen her stuff used as reference links to posts with questions about viewers. She has posted the specs of the PC she uses to evaluate viewers, and suprisingly enough they are modest to say the least:

Computer:

* CPU: Intel Q6600 Quad core, @ 2.4GHz

* Memory: 3GB DDR2 (PC2-5300) 333MHz

* OS: Windows 7 SP1 32-bit

* Video: nVidia GE9800GT 1GB

That's only a tiny bit better than mine, and I've been longing to upgrade mine for some time: I'm due. For the record I recently switched to Firestorm, current version, and am having no problems at all.

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The machine I and my room mate use (he uses it for games, I use it for games and SL) runs a Cor2Duo at aboyt that clock speed, has 2GB of DDR2, 800MHz ram, an nVidia GT 430 with 1GB of onboard memory .... and is operating on XP Pro Service Pack 3 (many of our present programs don't run right on later versions of Windows/have no upgrades or viable alternatives ... and is more of a personal quirk) ...

And I can run Firestorm on Ultra settings with a few tweaks: Water reflections down to minimal, shadows off for the most part (it runs with them on and almost maed out well enough) with the Draw Distance set down to 128 meters.

[Reikokimyo]

I find building your own save a lot of money over time, as you can use the same mouse, keyboard and monitor.  It can also spread out cost as well as you dont need to always buy everything at once.  Its possible to slowly upgrade your computer over time as your budget allows.

The downsides of this is possibly having to learn something new that is a bit technical, having to assemble it yourself and a lack of a single customer support/warranty point.

Over the the past 8 years that I have been bulding my own computers, I estimate Ive spent about 75%less than I would have if I were to simply buy a budget computer every 3 or so years.  Keep in mind that I usually keep my computers in low high to mid range specs and often times the cost is spread over 4-6 months.  My mother particularly likes this as she gets my old stuff that works well for her, that she wouldnt normally be able to afford.

[Solar Legion]

Heh, this PC is a hodgepodge. It started life as a used PC from a school and has been upgraded over the years. The case itself is actually older than any of the components inside it.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Reikokimyo wrote:

I find building your own save a lot of money over time, as you can use the same mouse, keyboard and monitor.  It can also spread out cost as well as you dont need to always buy everything at once.  Its possible to slowly upgrade your computer over time as your budget allows.

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It can, but if you're not expert, it can cost you massive amounts. I recommend not building one's own machine unless one is a tech geek who -ALSO- gets it with what you will use it for, or has such a person do it.

- And mind you that many tech geeks have particular understandings of the world that are very narrow. So if you're not the tech geek building it for yourself, if you're having one build it for you - you might not get what you really needed.

Off the shelf machines can suffer from being built for general audiences - but this can be a good thing if you're a general user.

 

[solstyse]

For the desktop crowd, I have to agree with, well, both schools of thought. Buying a prebuilt pc has several advantages. One is that you get everything you need in a balanced system for the cost. Another is that those who save money building their own not only have technical skills, but also some impressive shopping skills.

three years ago, I wanted a Win7 computer. After looking into things, the barebones kits didn't seem to offer more value for the money than the prebuilt did. (Barebones, for those who don't know, are basically unassembled collections of parts you can buy online to assemble your own computer. Ten years ago, they wer the best thing going for someone who's motherboard and processor were showing their age. Just transfer your old drives from your old computer into the one that they give you the parts to build, and voila.) The difference in specs are much lower in these barebones kits now than they were in the past if you compare computers in the $300-$600 range. Everybody who feels that building your own computer saves you money is a person who buys individual parts, and probably from different sources. They know who to go to for what parts.

However, if a desktop is your formfactor of choice, then there is absolutely nothing saying that you need to keep the hardware it comes with. If you start feeling behind the times on graphics, just install a new card. 4 gigs of memory doesn't float your boat anymore? Just buy more. HDD too small? Buy another one.

Unfortunately with a laptop you're highly limited on what you can do internally. Just ram and HDD on most machines. But, to be honest, none of the "build it yourself" crowd is talking about a laptop.

My last desktop lasted me more than ten years, and could have lasted me probably another ten if "barebones" kits were still the value they were when I built it, or if even one of the major components was the same standard as they were back then. What happened? Not a single part on that computer is compatible with new hardware. Well, maybe the optical drives, but those are so minor that some computers don't even have them anymore. Due to upgrade costs, it became smarter to retire that machine. When buying a computer, here's what I learned.

1. Clock speed is nowhere near as critical as it was a decade ago. On the x86 chipset, there is a huge divide between low end and high end anymore. If you get a laptop, you'll want a minimum of 2ghz. I may not be looking hard enough at low end desktops, but I'm not seeing anything lower than 3ghz.

2. Especially with laptops, graphics are important. Since you can't upgrade like on a desktop, get the top of the line graphics at the time of purchase. Unlike years ago, it's not the CPU that makes a computer seem outdated. It's the GPU.

3. On a laptop, get yourself something with 2 gigs of video memory. On a desktop, who cares? you can upgrade if you didn't get enough.

4. BIOS matters more than ever. This is the firmware connected to the motherboard. Again, this is less important in a desktop, since if you're unhappy with the hardware/firmware, you can upgrade. But now, after three years of trusty service on my laptop, I want to begin overclocking, and I found out that my BIOS lacks the customization options I need. (disclaimer: Overclocking increases heat, which is far less dangerous in a desktop than a laptop.)

5. Consider the OS when you think of formfactor. If you're buying a prebuilt computer, then keep in mind that most are going to be either shipped with Windows 8, or they'll offer Windows 8 at a highly discounted price. (A marketing move that Microsoft made to keep computer manufacturers and retailers from losing business during the wait for the Windows 8 release date. The Windows 8 interface is designed with touchscreens in mind. Underneath that, it acts very similar to Windows 7 with some tweaks, and with some online guides, can even be made to look mostly like 7. But if you're an OS nerd like me, then you'll want a touchscreen eventually to see what Win8 has to offer. It seems to me that the desktop crowd is going to be quite a bit less happy with Win8 than the laptop/ultrabook/tablet crowd is.

Overall, I have no remorse for buying the computer that I did (a laptop), but I AM going back to the good old fashioned desktop. Call me a masochist for picking a bad combo, but it WILL be a Windows 8 machine. And odds are my first monitor when I make the switch will be a spare old CRT display that I have laying around. Even if I do spring for a flatscreen monitor, I'll probably wait for the prices to drop a bit before buying the touchscreen. The touchscreen all-but-dependence of Win8's metro interface will probably someday see the end of monitors that aren't touchscreen enabled. I just pray that the gamers, businesses, and "specs for the money" desktop buyers of the world keep that formfactor alive for a few more years so I can go back to buying one component at a time to overcome performance bottlenecks one component at a time rather than investing half a grand on a new machine each time something becomes dated. But if those "specs for the money" people who want a touchscreen look at an ultrabook without thinking about the upgradability of a desktop, my prayers will inevitably go unanswered.

[Reikokimyo]

I wouldnt say you need to be an expert, just be educated on how things go together.  I'm no expert at all, but can build something that suits me.

I agree that you do need to have one built for your needs, thats how you can save some money, by eliminating the stuff you wont use as well as not needing to buy stuff you already have (monitor, keyboard, mouse ect).

But building your own isnt for everyone, I offer it as a suggestion to maybe help someone that thinks they can benefit from it.

[Czari Zenovka]

ACK...just saw these replies today.  :matte-motes-bashful:  In my defense, Dec. 24th was my birthday.

Anyway, thank you so much, 16, for putting some specs out there for me.  Many thanks also to Theresa and several others of you who have added info.  I especially like the breakdown of money spent per year on various types of PCs.

I'm not going to attempt to build my own this time...just too much that could go wrong.  However, I will most likely be updating any PC I purchase as time goes on.  I have installed new hard drives and added RAM, but never installed a new graphics card.  Is that difficult to do?

[Parhelion Palou]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

ACK...just saw these replies today.  :matte-motes-bashful:  In my defense, Dec. 24th was my birthday.

Anyway, thank you so much, 16, for putting some specs out there for me.  Many thanks also to Theresa and several others of you who have added info.  I especially like the breakdown of money spent per year on various types of PCs.

I'm not going to attempt to build my own this time...just too much that could go wrong.  However, I will most likely be updating any PC I purchase as time goes on.  I have installed new hard drives and added RAM, but never installed a new graphics card.  Is that difficult to do?

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Installing a graphics card isn't harder than installing a hard drive. Make sure the PC you buy has at least one 6-pin graphics card power connector, or two spare 4-pin power connectors (for use with an adapter cable). The power supply should be at least 450 watts. That'd be good enough to run an NVidia GTX660 Ti - plenty good for SL. Otherwise you might have to upgrade the power supply along with your graphics card.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Also make sure technology doesn't change what boards can connect to what. If you want to upgrade your graphics card 3 years from now, start by traveling forward in time 3 years to buy a motherboard that will fit whatever cards are being sold then.

Seems every few years they change all the possible kinds of boards inside of PCs, making it impossible to upgrade something like a graphics card unless you get a new motherboard that it can plug into, which then has a different kind of memory slot, and new cables, and a different back shape so it won't fit older cases, and needs more power... and new hard drives...

- Or just budget the whole thing with that in mind and a realization that new parts won't fit a few years down the road, so buy at a price that lets you replace the whole thing 3-5 years down the road.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Parhelion Palou wrote:

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

ACK...just saw these replies today.  :matte-motes-bashful:  In my defense, Dec. 24th was my birthday.

Anyway, thank you so much, 16, for putting some specs out there for me.  Many thanks also to Theresa and several others of you who have added info.  I especially like the breakdown of money spent per year on various types of PCs.

I'm not going to attempt to build my own this time...just too much that could go wrong.  However, I will most likely be updating any PC I purchase as time goes on.  I have installed new hard drives and added RAM, but never installed a new graphics card.  Is that difficult to do?

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Installing a graphics card isn't harder than installing a hard drive. Make sure the PC you buy has at least one 6-pin graphics card power connector, or two spare 4-pin power connectors (for use with an adapter cable). The power supply should be at least 450 watts. That'd be good enough to run an NVidia GTX660 Ti - plenty good for SL. Otherwise you might have to upgrade the power supply along with your graphics card.

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Thank you so much.   Also appreciate the suggestion of an nVidia card as that is what I prefer and have had excellent success using.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

 

Seems every few years they change all the possible kinds of boards inside of PCs, making it impossible to upgrade something like a graphics card unless you get a new motherboard that it can plug into, which then has a different kind of memory slot, and new cables, and a different back shape so it won't fit older cases, and needs more power... and new hard drives...

 

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Which is exactly what happened to me, but fortunately I made do with the last upgrade for 10 years but, as you say, technology is upgrading at a much faster rate now.