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Why I consider "path finding" useless in SL, and what do people use it for?


Mircea Lobo
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Mircea Lobo wrote:

Ok. For me it's more important to know you're not an alien from outer space, so please email me your photo and all of your official documents
(bank account too
:
) )

when you own SL then i be happy to provide you. if it means i can keep my account

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Mircea Lobo wrote:

I should consider owning SL then. With people willing to do that so easily, I could start my own espionage service without anyone even blinking... could run the CIA out of business
:)

jejejejeje (:

+

the thing is tho is my choice. same as is yours

bc linden takes payment details off me then i want them to be careful about what they do with my money and access to my payment method. if they have any doubts at all then i rather that they put my account on hold

is same like my bank. i do interwebz banking. i want them to block my account if they suspect anything at all. they can be as paranoid as they want about it on my behalf

i am happy to sort it out with them later on if that ever happens

+

on some games/services i dont have any payment info. like on my interwebz email addy. i always get asked to enter my cellphone number. security they say. they can bite me. am not ever going to give them that lol. i got capped data plan on my phone. am not going to pay for my email interwebz company to send me advertising. lol not

 

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Well, the true part is that it is more of a choice at this day. If you're comfortable with sending such data online, it's always up to the person... but Linden doing the asking I will never agree with. Just my belief.

As for suspending the account... well I did a lot in SL over the years, and couldn't imagine my account ever being put on hold. Though if someone hacks in and starts stealing money that's very bad... but I'd rather ask they reset my password urgently. Such dark scenarios never happened for me and hopefully never will.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

I understand where he's coming from too. But Masami makes it sound like LL is doing something other than obeying the law as it is currently written. It's not LL that's preventing you from making backups or transferring your purchases some where else, it's the creators that are restricting you by the rights given to them through copyright laws.

He is intentionally distorting the truth to make LL out to be "the bad guy" so as to push his open source agenda.

Masami not doing very well at the moment. he hardly ever do very well on any SL forums. is just his style really

+

what Masami never get is that he in the camp that think that GPL style licensing is opensource. is like a religion for them

GPL is not opensource. public domain/Apache/BSD/CC style  is opensource

GPL is coercive and exploitative. behind every major piece of GPL software is a large organisation that exploit the contributors who work for free. is present to them the workers as a noble endeavour. is rubbish

even Apache Foundation dont buy into that rubbish

Apache say that they still trying to determine if Apache 2.0 license is compatible with GPL. nobody much cares if is never determined

 

 

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>> "Jesus Christ, talk about distorting the truth to push an agenda. LL doesn't grant you a license because they don't have the authority to do so and you damn well know it!"

 

I recommend reading the TOS. Linden Lab, as the man in the middle, gets a sublicenseable and transferable license to the content for free. The consumer who actually pays for the content gets nothing. That is an indisputable fact.

 

From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload. For creators living in third-world countries it might actually work. But the only real winner in this game is Linden Lab by reselling server capacity ten times above market prices. $300 per region and month is absolutely ridiculous.

 

It really is a stupid deal for creators and consumers alike. It seems the only smart people on the grid are the freeloaders.

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>> "what Masami never get is that he in the camp that think that GPL style licensing is opensource. is like a religion for them"

 

OpenSim uses the BSD license. So what exactly is your point? I don't even know which of my statements you are referring to. Or were you just looking for a straw man to go ad hominem?

 

I care about my money and my rights. Most people would consider this the exact opposite of religion.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

>> "Jesus Christ, talk about distorting the truth to push an agenda. LL doesn't grant you a license because they don't have the authority to do so and you damn well know it!"

 

I recommend reading the TOS. Linden Lab, as the
man in the middle
, gets a sublicenseable and transferable license to the content for free. The consumer who actually pays for the content gets nothing. That is an indisputable fact.


Please explain to me how SL could work without that clause. The specific wording LL uses may be overly broad, however LL needs the right to redistribute in order for everyone else to see your content, without it LL has NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO SO, FULL STOP. And you completely ignored my point that many creators don't want you to take their works out of SL.

Pro Tip: SL isn't the only content distribution service on the internet with such a clause in its TOS.


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload. For creators living in third-world countries it might actually work. But the only real winner in this game is Linden Lab by reselling server capacity ten times above market prices. $300 per region and month is absolutely ridiculous.


lolwut? So now it's LL's responsibility to get people to buy your stuff. Next you're going to tell me Flickr has a legal obligation to make people buy images from the photographers that post on that site. That can not be what you're trying to say, please elaborate.

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

>> "what Masami never get is that he in the camp that think that GPL style licensing is opensource. is like a religion for them"

 

OpenSim uses the BSD license. So what exactly is your point? I don't even know which of my statements you are referring to. Or were you just looking for a straw man to go ad hominem?

 

I care about my money and my rights. Most people would consider this the exact opposite of religion.

my point is that you have long interwebz history of been an advocate for GPL. like a lot of insecure codeys you religioulsy cling to it bc you somehow think it protect you from all them evol other codeys who igunna steal your codes

nobody serious will ever steal your codes bc nobody serious wants them. only people who ever steal codes is people who dont know anything about algos

nobody cares about what you typed into your programming editor. nobody who knows how to use one properly anyways

+

 ad hominen lol

you been dissing linden devs in this thread and claim that someone else wrote their codes

you call people noobs when they point out the obvious. then in the same post even you show you have no actual idea of  what you claiming to know about

the one solution you did offer, normals, to solve the button problem does not even address the problem. let alone solve it

+

the world is still waiting btw

 

--||-
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>> "Please explain to me how SL could work without that clause."

 

When you upload content to your own website, you don't cede rights or grant licenses to anyone. Even if the website operates on third-party hardware running third-party software. You own the content. All rights reserved, literally.

 

Could SL work without that clause? I don't know. OpenSim certainly does.

 

Technically, an OpenSim grid is a website, and the viewer is a browser. And just like a website, you can run your own grid with your own asset server. It may be just a few regions large, depending on your needs, but people can teleport to it from any other place, pretty much like they surf the web. The hypergrid is basically a world-wide web of independent grids. That's the whole idea, in a nutshell. A 3D world wide web with avatars.

 

>> "The specific wording LL uses may be overly broad"

 

That's an interesting admission from someone who previously accused me of "distorting the truth."

 

>> "So now it's LL's responsibility to get people to buy your stuff."

 

Not at all. Anyone submitting to LL's terms has no one to blame but themselves. I was just wondering why people keep doing it. Consider the hundreds of private regions that disappear every month because their "owners" can no longer afford to pay $300 per month to keep them up. It is happening as we speak. At the cost of a lunch or two, those works could be preserved indefinitely. A full OpenSim region can be had for $20 per month, without signing away your rights to the content.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload.

I'm curious. Which part of LL's platform does not help [creators] make a living from the content they upload? The platform includes a system for selling stuff for L$, and it has a system for converting L$ to US$, and for cashing out US$. The system has everything for making a living.

I'm a creator and, for a long time, I made an RL living from SL, and that only stopped because I chose to stop it and not because it was forced on me in any way. So what part of the platform don't you understand?

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

Technically, an OpenSim grid is a website, and the viewer is a browser.

Nope. Like SL, an OpenSim grid doesn't run on the web so it isn't a website and the viewer isn't a browser. If you don't know the difference between the web and the internet, do some research ;)

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I noticed many people in the open source world don't really agree with the GPL license. Personally though, it's one of my favorites. Since for one thing, it makes sure that what's open source stays open source, and you can't release the binaries without the source code also being available. I heard about good FOSS projects going closed-source later on, which I consider sad... GPL makes that very hard though.

But overall, I like all free licenses... like MIT (OpenSim's) and especially Public Domain :) Outside of SL and software, it would be nice if at this day more music and movies were released under Creative Commons as well.

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I noticed many people in the open source world don't really agree with the GPL license. 

That's because it doesn't play nicely with other open source licenses. There are also a lot of places where GPL is used with exceptions that so conflict with the details of GPL as to make the license as a whole quite incoherent.

LGPL is somewhat less aggressively viral.

That's not to say there are no uses for GPL, but it's a much more radical choice than public domain.

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i went on this other forum where people make games and stuff. they all indies most of them. quite a few uni cs students as well

is this one uni student. he is making a game engine. like lots and lots of other uni cs students have a go at

every week or about he post about what he is doing and whatever new feature he added or reworked. he release GPL and he ask if anyone wants to work with him on it

nobody ever reply to his post about that. so he just keep on doing and make his posts. sometimes he gets stuck on something and he ask about it. when he do then someone will answer and say can try this or that

+

after nearly about 8 months he had only about 60 something dls of his game engine codes. but like nearly 700 views of his posts

so one day he ask about that

2 of the other indie devs who been chatting him about his stuff say is bc of the GPL

that most regulars on the forum are indies and they write games and apps and try make a living that way

the uni student say he made GPL bc thats what he got told was the best way at his college. and he dont want people to take/use his stuff and not contribute back

the other 2 devs was quite good to him and explain that indie devs like them only got so much time available. like they have to work on stuff to make a living as best they can

1 of the indies said he would be happy to work on it if was changed to BSD. bc then he be able to contribute to the core engine and also include in his own games so he can make some money to feed himself. and not have to release the algos that enable his game logics which is actual what makes a game and not the engine

the uni student said he want to think about that. he come back after about 2 days and say ok. change to BSD. is now about 6 people contributing to it and is turning out pretty good. and everyone happy

as more and more indie devs getting into mobile apps they turning more and more toward BSD/Apache style for these reasons

+

is only really 2 kinds of GPL projects now. one backed by large orgs where is a benefit for them. like GPL Community Edition and closed Enterprise edition and/or with support/consultancy fees

the other kind is contribute/backed by and for people who have other sources of personal income and the project helps them sustain that income. like teachers for example who collab a lot on educational software. other example is people who make 3D models and derive their income from the models they sell and not the tools they use. stuff like that

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

Not at all. Anyone submitting to LL's terms has no one to blame but themselves. I was just wondering why people keep doing it. Consider the hundreds of private regions that disappear every month because their "owners" can no longer afford to pay $300 per month to keep them up. It is happening as we speak. At the cost of a lunch or two, those works could be preserved indefinitely. A full OpenSim region can be had for $20 per month, without signing away your rights to the content.

I don't understand this bit.   If I write a script, or you make a mesh, or someone else makes a texture or animation, the fact we've uploaded it to SL doesn't stop us uploading it to another grid, too.   LL can't give me permission to export something of yours to another grid;  that's up to you.    So if I buy a mesh from you for use in SL,  I have to approach you and ask you if I can have a copy for use in Open Sim too.  That's between you and me; LL aren't involved at all.  

The only time it's an issue, it seems to me, is when it's a prim build, but there's long been ways, using LSL, of exporting prim parameters to a text file and rebuilding it by script  on another grid.   So it's an inconvenience but not an over-riding one.

If I  buy a build from you in SL, how can LL stop you from also supplying the same build to me in Open Sim, if you're willing so to do?   All LL can do, it seems to me, is prevent my taking it to Open Sim against your wishes.    

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

Most of OpenSim's core services communicate via HTTP, and that makes it a web server in my book. I know that some parts of the protocol still use UDP. Anyway, thank you for paying attention.
;)

A web server isn't a website either ;)

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>> "A web server isn't a website either"

 

A web server accessible from a network and hosting at least one web page is a website. In this case, the web page is the OpenSim grid login page. The viewer displays it using its built-in WebKit renderer. Technically this makes the viewer a web browser, although its main purpose is obviously something else.

 

Can we leave it at that, Mr. Deakins? Or would you like to bore us a little more?

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm curious. Which part of LL's platform does not help [creators] make a living from the content they upload? The platform includes a system for selling stuff for L$, and it has a system for converting L$ to US$, and for cashing out US$. The system has everything for making a living.

Technically, the platform is indeed well equipped. The only thing missing is the steady influx of new customers on a level comparable to 2007. That's why SL's land mass is shrinking dramatically and its mainland cheaper than ever before.


I'm a creator and, for a long time, I made an RL living from SL, and that only stopped because I chose to stop it and not because it was forced on me in any way. So what part of the platform don't you understand?

You don't seem to understand that different parts of the world have different standards of living. In my part of the world, you can make money faster and easier by flipping burgers. SL content creation is something you do when unemployed. In other parts of the world, where the cost of living is lower, a few bucks made in SL may indeed support a family. It's a globalized platform after all. I once heard that most of Anshe's staff is working from China.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

>> "Please explain to me how SL could work without that clause."

 

When you upload content to your own website, you don't cede rights or grant licenses to anyone. Even if the website operates on third-party hardware running third-party software. You own the content. All rights reserved, literally.

 

Could SL work without that clause? I don't know. OpenSim certainly does.


No OpenSim does not. The only way to work without that clause is if every single creator owned and operated their own asset server. If you don't own the server then the person who does needs redistribution rights. Small time sites may not bother with that, just like they don't bother with a lot of things. But major sites making real money that they want to protect have legal teams to figure this stuff out. And guess what.


For clarity, you retain all of your ownership rights in your Content. However, by submitting Content to YouTube, you hereby grant YouTube a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicenseable and transferable license to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform the Content in connection with the Service and YouTube's (and its successors' and affiliates') business, including without limitation for promoting and redistributing part or all of the Service (and derivative works thereof) in any media formats and through any media channels. You also hereby grant each user of the Service a non-exclusive license to access your Content through the Service, and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such Content as permitted through the functionality of the Service and under these Terms of Service. The above licenses granted by you in video Content you submit to the Service terminate within a commercially reasonable time after you remove or delete your videos from the Service. You understand and agree, however, that YouTube may retain, but not display, distribute, or perform, server copies of your videos that have been removed or deleted. The above licenses granted by you in user comments you submit are perpetual and irrevocable.


Look at that, the wording google uses is pretty much the same as what LL uses.

Seriously how are we arguing over this. By default a copyright grants absolutely no rights to the end user other then fair use, therefore it should be pretty obvious to anyone that the rights holder(creator) needs to grant the distributor (LL) distribution rights in order for this to work. Just because some opensim grinds are run by a bunch of hippies that don't bother doesn't mean it's legal

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

It's not LL that's preventing you from making backups or transferring your purchases some where else, it's the creators that are restricting you by the rights given to them through copyright laws.

 

Well, yes and no.

Prior to mid-2010 any objects one owned that had full permissions could be backed up to one's hard drive.  This did not violate any LL policies, TOS, etc.  There was a third-party company called Second Inventory that sold a product to do so.  A merchant selling a product in SL is obviously not going to make their creations full perm for obvious reasons so people who were backing up items were, for the most part, content creators who wanted to protect their work from inventory glitches, etc.  Their creations were full perm due to being the original creators and/or using full perm textures, sculpts, etc. within those builds.

In the Spring of 2010 LL instituted a new policy re: inventory backups.  The new policy stated that the only items that could be backed up to HD were ones 100% created by a person, including textures, sculpts, animations, etc.  A new TPV policy was instituted at the same time.  Many content creators began quickly backing up their creations before the new policy went into effect.  Due to a number of merchants being opposed to this new policy, many headed over to the barely known (at the time) grid called InWorldz.  The population of IW exploded with the mass influx of new residents, the majority of whom were content creators/merchants in SL.

This move resulted in many merchants, including some "big name" merchants, setting up shop in IW and leaving SL altogether or, more commonly, setting up shop in IW while still maintaining their store in LL.  The prevailing attitude amongst the group of merchants who transferred their creations felt that it was a good business decision.  If LL went up in smoke then they still had their creations in tact and another grid on which to conduct business.

Second Inventory changed their official name to Stored Inventory after the LL policy change went into effect.  It was also during this time that many creators who sell building components (ie. textures, sculpties) began setting policies about the ability to use their content on other grids.  Prior to this, for creators purchasing these components full-perm to use in their builds, use of their creations on other grids had never really been a concern.

There are several parts, therefore, to your comment:

1.  Creators of building components sell their items full perms to builders with licenses that the builder cannot keep those items full perms on the builds they sell.  In a market economy, this makes perfect sense.

2.  The creators of the end product that is sold to consumers (houses, furniture, clothes, etc.) also don't set their items full perms.  That would be a way to go out of business fast as their builds start showing up all over the grid in freebie areas or people handing out the items to friends.

These are both good business practices and have nothing to do with merchants blocking the ability to back up or use the purchased items on other grids just to be mean-spirited.

3.  As far as the ability for content creators to back up their own builds, LL *has* restricted that ability as of two years ago unless every single component within the build is created by the builder.

So to recap, the ability to back up an item from SL to one's PC has always been restricted by LL to full perm items only (to the best of my knowledge - I just became aware of this during the above-referenced 2010 issue).  Content creators/merchants have now been restricted more than previously in what they may back up.  A merchant selling non-full perm items to an end user is not mean-spirited and many merchants will work with a customer who wants a mod/transfer item instead of mod/copy, for example.

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re 'At the cost of a lunch or two, those works could be preserved indefinitely' erm our little loose group have been doing this for a while. We make and distribute as much as we can amongst ourselves (scripts, sculpts, textures as needed,  the odd anim and now mesh and even prim builds - joy of XML via email eh what a concept)  and upload...where we choose to. To get back to the point, so far we have looked at pathfinding et al and taken its use on board ans had some fun with it but for now have no real reason to go beyond that.  But not because it is SL only - if we had something in mind we would as we always do it in this worlds unique environment.

 

As for OpenSim in general - when H2 secure is in place we might - might - consider bothering with it. Right now we prefer places where we do retain our rights.

 

Plus I can whip up a real lunch (Euro style) for less than a buck a head including pudding =^^=

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