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Why I consider "path finding" useless in SL, and what do people use it for?


Mircea Lobo
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Innula Zenovka wrote:

LL's problem, as I understand it, is that people tend to create an account, log in once (maybe twice) and then never come back.   To my mind, if LL knew what was causing that, they'd take steps to remedy it, if they could.   I don't know, but I'm sure it can't be to do with not being able to TP to other grids and take your inventory with you.    

Maybe it's just people take a look and decide that a virtual world like SL isn't for them, and they'd rather be playing Minecraft.  Which is where Patterns comes in.

How many of those ever even rez inworld though?

Spam-bots are trained to roam all over the internet and create accounts anywhere they can land that has a forum or what 'sniffs out' like a community. 10000 such accounts per day is -low- on a busy site that has no captcha and use meta-data that looks communal. Putting captcha in place at my work, and simply removing some keywords,cut our false registrations on the customer forum from about that number to the more expected 1 to 5 per day... The difference was that shocking.

If they were to aggressively weed out the spam-bots, it would be very interesting to see how the data changed.

 

I suspect on the order of real accounts, SL gets under a few hundred a day - given its age and lack of presence on popular media.

It might very well be that SL -has- good retention...

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

They can't create.

A quick list of things not created by Linden Lab:

  • the hypergrid protocol (teleporting, messaging etc. between grids)
  • megaregions (larger than 256x256 meters without region crossing lag)
  • distributed scene graph (1000+ avatars in a single region)
  • mesh (yes, you read that right, the first mesh-capable viewer came from RealXtend, years before LL picked up the idea)
  • multiple attachment points
  • the prim alignment tool
  • the mesh deformer
  • the upcoming materials extension
  • hundreds of viewer patches and security fixes (e.g. the media filter)

There is so much groundbreaking and useful stuff coming from sources outside LL these days, you have to wonder who is really running the show. It seems to me that a community-driven virtual world would be preferable.

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I am sure the actual retention figures are better than the raw numbers might suggest -- after all, as well as spam-bots, as you suggest, there must a fair number of in-world bots, created for more or less legitimate purposes, certainly a lot of alts, and I suspect a goodly number of accounts that are swiftly discarded when people think better of the name they've chosen.

Having said all that, though, while I have no idea what the actual numbers are like, I did discuss this sort of thing when I was talking to Lindens about the Adult Hubs, back when the Adult Content group used to meet, and certainly they seem to regard the new user's experience of the first half hour or so as a very important element in whether the new user sticks around and becomes are regular user.   They also seemed think there was great room for improvement (both in retention and in the new user experience).

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

There is so much groundbreaking and useful stuff coming from sources outside LL these days, you have to wonder who is really running the show. It seems to me that a community-driven virtual world would be preferable.


Are you saying that Open Sim isn't a "community-driven virtual world"?   If it is one, then while you may find it preferable to SL for that reason, you're clearly in very small minority.,   If it isn't one, then what would "a community-driven virtual world" look like?

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Not quite sure how this equates to SL except your mention that "we" (assuming you meant SL or maybe virtual worlds in general) would go the mainstream of pay-per-use, while the game to which I refer went the opposite direction in a frantic effort to attract new players.

 

hi (: have you come for another vatting ???  jejejejeje (:

+

i just pick up on this part of your post

+

when i say pay-per-use i kinda mean more like how cable/network TV and radio work. they all pay-per-use model. with different payment methods

on cable TV the user pay direct for the service. consumer dont own anything. just pay their subs and use/consume while is turned on

on radio and network TV then owner of the service pays and then use advertising to try make money for themselves. as a free listener/watcher i just get what i am given on that service

altogether has worked ok for everyone this model over many years now

artists/creators get paid. hosts/stations make money. consumers happy to get what they paid for. people pretty accepting about this generally. even if they sometimes argue over how much they pay/receive personally

interwebz going down the same path as we get more and more connected to it

+

can see where your examples about that game you played on matches up with all this

like free to play and use what you given. if want more then buy a sub and use more

some hosts have mixed free/pay services. same like in your game/world. same like SL

the fundamental sameness is that when i buy a digital goods then i dont own it. i own the use of it., say like i buy a top off someone in the game. i dont own the top. just the use of it while i am in the game. like have it turned on / logged on to it

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Look at my gallery, in my sig - and recreate that in an Open Sim. That's how'd you'd get my attention.

If I did, I would find it ripped, imported to SL, and sold on the marketplace in no time. Because SL, with its inworld currency redeemable to USD, is the mothership of content theft. There is a thread on SLU, currently 33 pages long, dedicated to SL mesh assets stolen from mainstream games. There is a prolific SL land baron and blogger openly encouraging people to violate Creative Commons licenses and selling OpenSim freebies on LL's grid. When that happens, how does one even prove that the items appeared on OpenSim first. The thieves will just claim to be the original creators, just as it happened in the Curio case.

I'm ready to give away stuff for free, but not before the mothership has hit the metaphorical bottom of the ocean.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


16 wrote:


Masami Kuramoto wrote:

What do you think made Android more compelling than iOS, if not the lower price and more openness?

you countering your own argument again when you say this

I was asking a question.

which you answered yourself

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Are you saying that Open Sim isn't a "community-driven virtual world"?

It hasn't been, so far at least. Its stated goal has been to develop a server that is compatible with LL's official viewer. Whatever didn't work with that viewer, the developers didn't implement. Ultimately, LL was still calling the shots.

Hopefully that will change, now that LL has burned the bridges and the Phoenix team has decided to fork the viewer in response. For example, they could go ahead and roll out the mesh deformer that Oz has been blocking for more than a year. They could replace the crappy Ruth avatar mesh with a proper one. And so on.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Look at my gallery, in my sig - and recreate that in an Open Sim. That's how'd you'd get my attention.

If I did, I would find it ripped, imported to SL, and sold on the marketplace in no time.

Well...

Until that's all sorted out, you can't really expect everyone to give up their sense of selves for the OS-Utopia.

And that's the thing. If I can't be some form of 'me', why bother showing up? Its the same thing that kept me from ever getting past the first few moments in Blue Mars. I wasn't interested in their brand of Hawaiian surfer... I imagine it was the perfect world, for someone who's fantasy was to be a Hawaiian surfer. But the rest of... /shrug.

Most people are not in SL to whittle away for hours in a sandbox or build platform - they're here for communities and self exploration. Be it a desire to be some weird purple fox creature in leather... or to be a california beach blond with a Jersey Shore tan... people want to express.

If OS has all the content creators - they won't get the rest of us until they start creating content. :P

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Are you saying that Open Sim isn't a "community-driven virtual world"?

It hasn't been, so far at least. Its stated goal has been to develop a server that is compatible with LL's official viewer. Whatever didn't work with that viewer, the developers didn't implement. Ultimately, LL was still calling the shots.

Hopefully that will change, now that LL has burned the bridges and the Phoenix team has decided to fork the viewer in response. For example, they could go ahead and roll out the mesh deformer that Oz has been blocking for more than a year. They could replace the crappy Ruth avatar mesh with a proper one. And so on.

Your case, as far as I can see, appears to be that if 

  • SL were to vanish, taking everyone's inventories with it, and 
  • OpenSim were radically  to change from what it is at the moment

then OpenSim would be an attractive alternative to SL.

And, as they say where I come from originally,  if my aunt's anatomy were rather different, she'd be my uncle.   Well, in point of fact, that's not precisely how they would phrase it, but the content filter here isn't used to our rude Northern ways.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Your case, as far as I can see, appears to be that if 
  • SL were to vanish, taking everyone's inventories with it, and 
  • OpenSim were radically  to change from what it is at the moment

then OpenSim would be an attractive alternative to SL.

No, it's OR, not AND. You are not paying attention.

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16 wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

Not quite sure how this equates to SL except your mention that "we" (assuming you meant SL or maybe virtual worlds in general) would go the mainstream of pay-per-use, while the game to which I refer went the opposite direction in a frantic effort to attract new players.

 

hi (: have you come for another vatting ???  jejejejeje (:

+

<snip>

can see where your examples about that game you played on matches up with all this

like free to play and use what you given. if want more then buy a sub and use more

some hosts have mixed free/pay services. same like in your game/world. same like SL

the fundamental sameness is that when i buy a digital goods then i dont own it. i own the use of it., say like i buy a top off someone in the game. i dont own the top. just the use of it while i am in the game. like have it turned on / logged on to it

I knew there was some connection in my post to your example...just wasn't sure where once I quit rambling. :matte-motes-tongue: 

Ummmm, is "vatting" a good or bad thing?  If it is a good thing, why yes I did. ;)  If it is a bad thing...I was never here...honest. *Grins*

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


I knew there was some connection in my post to your example...just wasn't sure where once I quit rambling. :matte-motes-tongue: 

Ummmm, is "vatting" a good or bad thing?  If it is a good thing, why yes I did.
;)
  If it is a bad thing...I was never here...honest. *Grins*

rambling is good for you.  i do all the time. for starters it tones your pixel legs (:

about the vatting. was actual Phil's fault that. in this other thread he keep rambling on and on about it. i got really really toned pixels on my legs now. just keeping up  q; (:

 

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

16 wrote:

about the vatting. was actual Phil's fault that. in this other thread
he keep rambling
on and on about it. i got really really toned pixels on my legs now. just keeping up  q; (:

 

 

He
kept rambling? I think maybe he had some help with that...

yes i saw that. was all these people just came in and go on and on and on and on and on and on

dunno why really they done that

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

They can't create.

A quick list of things not created by Linden Lab:
  • the hypergrid protocol (teleporting, messaging etc. between grids)
  • megaregions (larger than 256x256 meters without region crossing lag)
  • distributed scene graph (1000+ avatars in a single region)
  • mesh (yes, you read that right, the first mesh-capable viewer came from RealXtend, years before LL picked up the idea)
  • multiple attachment points
  • the prim alignment tool
  • the mesh deformer
  • the upcoming materials extension
  • hundreds of viewer patches and security fixes (e.g. the media filter)

There is so much groundbreaking and useful stuff coming from sources outside LL these days, you have to wonder who is really running the show. It seems to me that a community-driven virtual world would be preferable.

I said that the OS grid owners couldn't create. I wasn't refering to the OS writers. None of the things you listed were created by OS grid owners, unless the 'creation' was merely changing variables, and some of them are about viewers, which we weren't talking about anyway..

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16 wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:

 

16 wrote:

about the vatting. was actual Phil's fault that. in this other thread
he keep rambling
on and on about it. i got really really toned pixels on my legs now. just keeping up  q; (:

 

 

He
kept rambling? I think maybe he had some help with that...

yes i saw that. was all these people just came in and go on and on and on and on and on and on

dunno why really they done that

Because it's fun.

jejejeje ;)

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(Back on the discussion about whether LL should have open-sourced the code for sims and perhaps some of the other services.)


... I've yet to see a server that couldn't block a known method of griefing through abusing the technical means.

For a known exploit, yes, but there are new security breaches arising daily even in very well-established communications, open-sourced or not. I absolutely believe that a codebase open for public scrutiny can become more secure than any proprietary one; encryption is a great example. Taking that example, however, the algorithms and implementations were public for a long time before anybody trusted them for use with secure transactions -- and, of course, they are relatively tiny. It's a very different thing to suddenly throw open the floodgates of a huge, previously closed codebase.

(The concern for SL services, by the way, isn't limited to idle griefing, but includes exploits more sinister than that. Identity theft, for one, or a concerted attack to keep the grid out of service.)

Completely aside from the security concern, and speaking now as somebody who has evaluated open-sourcing a large software system, there's also a big legal hurdle: If one has a few hundred thousand lines of code written by scores of employees over several years, how can one be absolutely sure that all of it--every single subroutine--is eligible for any particular open source license? (I'd even wager that a close examination of OpenSim source would find components that cannot legally be GPL'd, even if they are open under another licensing regime.)

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It is true that exploits arise often for a lot software, with updates to fix them pretty soon after. Still, I rarely see major and dangerous flaws having to be fixed ugrently in this case.

On the side of griefing, I only remember reporting one flaw in all those years years for OpenSim. Which would allow a griefer to force a prim in your no-build parcel by unlinking a linkset and having some prims remain there (which couldn't be dragged individually but the center of the object as a linkset could be used to move them inside). I remember at some point that a griefer which had a "crush" on OpenSim used to annoy people on OSGrid, but all he succeeded in was to indicate important flaws which were instantly fixed... in the end some OpenSim devs realized he was truly useful :)

And I'd rather not get started on the idea of identity theft in Second Life after the experiences I had. Linden already does that officially, and have forced me to reveal my full ID card with photo / full name / address years ago under threats of deleting my SL account. I'm hoping that someday legal action will be taken against those Lindens, but it seems such a thing isn't happening yet.

As for attacks to take the grid out of service, that's one thing that requires a major flaw in the server code. If the server doesn't allow access in a way that can be used to bring a region / grid down, such a thing can't happen... unless someone physically throws a grenade in the server room.

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You said OpenSim grid owners "can't create." Not only is this wrong, considering the fact that the largest and oldest OpenSim grid is run by core developers and is the testbed for things such as BulletSim (using the Bullet physics engine) right now. You also misunderstood what I was pointing out: after laying off a significant number of key developers, the mothership is apparently losing the ability to create, as more and more features get contributed from outside the company. Hell, even their official viewer was not developed in-house but by a Ukrainian contractor. Their most popular viewer, on the other hand, is also being maintained by a third party. Which raises the question: What do we even need LL for? As a mere rackspace provider, they are damn expensive. As an innovator, they are becoming increasingly inept and useless. Worst of all, they seem to have lost their passion for the platform.

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Mircea Lobo wrote:

And I'd rather not get started on the idea of identity theft in Second Life after the experiences I had. Linden already does that officially, and have forced me to reveal my full ID card with photo / full name / address years ago under threats of deleting my SL account. I'm hoping that someday legal action will be taken against those Lindens, but it seems such a thing isn't happening yet.

 

How is that "stealing" your identity?

As I understand it their are only three reasons for LL requiring proof of identity.

One of them is legally required for the filing of a DCMA.

The second for proof of age when their is a suspicion of a minor on the Grid accessing adult content.

The third is when their is a suspicion of a problem with financial transactions.

When I worked in retail, if you presented me with a check to make a purchase, I asked for ID.  I would get the occasional word redacted who would act like it was an affront to their honesty. 

Requiring ID protected me AND it protects you.

I used to travel a lot for business.  It would irk me to go to an out of town branch to cash a check and NOT be asked for ID.  Nothing like cashing a check for $500.00 and not being asked for ID.  I let the Branch manager clearly know my thoughts on that.

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For them to have "proof of my age" for no actually serious reason, I was forced to send my full identity to complete strangers twice under threats of my account being suspended. I don't know if someone considers that a normal thing, but even after 4 years I'm still waiting for something to be done about what happened. Personally I'd even hope for those responsible to be in jail for frauid, invasion of privacy and identity theft (I emailed some legal associations in this sense at the time but never got a reply, luckily for Linden). Trust me, some people do NOT take this sort of thing lightly.

Anyway this is getting way off topic, and I remember I already discussed it during a major drama at the time, so no need to get into it again. Linden does some very bad things at times, but it would still be hard to hate them since they do a lot of nice stuff too. I think the pathfinding problem was one of the mistakes they did with SL in some senses (mostly how they chose to do it), but at least I'm a bit more clear now on the matter.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

You said OpenSim grid owners "can't create." Not only is this wrong,
considering the fact that the largest and oldest OpenSim grid is run by core developers
and is the testbed for things such as BulletSim (using the Bullet physics engine) right now. You also misunderstood what I was pointing out: after laying off a significant number of key developers, the mothership is apparently losing the ability to create, as more and more features get contributed from outside the company. Hell, even their official viewer was not developed in-house but by a Ukrainian contractor. Their most popular viewer, on the other hand, is also being maintained by a third party. Which raises the question: What do we even need LL for? As a mere rackspace provider, they are damn expensive. As an innovator, they are becoming increasingly inept and useless. Worst of all, they seem to have lost their passion for the platform.

Explain please.

The point is that OS grid owners cannot create. They merely use the creation of other people - the OS creators. From what you said, it sounds like there is one OS grid that is actually run by the OS creators and, if that's the case, then of course the OS creators can create. That goes without saying. It's those who use the OS system for their grids who are unable to create within it.

 

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The only OpenSim grid I'm actually familiar with is OSGrid. Not sure if it's the largest, but it's surely ran by the core developers too. I don't know how often they log in to build stuff, but I know some have their own sims and did create new content (Nebadon for instance has many good creations there). But I guess it depends on what the owner of each grid cares to do... some might only be interested un running the grid, others might be users who go there themselves.

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