Why I consider "path finding" useless in SL, and what do people use it for?

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

The thought of having teleportation between grids fills me, as a content creator, with horror.   

---

That's interesting, considering the fact that LL's walled garden grid is the mothership of content theft. No other grid is so filled with stolen stuff.

If the thieves wanted your content on other grids, it would already be there. The lack of inter-grid teleportation isn't stopping them. The lack of inter-grid currency is.

SL has this thing called "virtual economy" where you can copy other people's stuff and then sell it for a profit. That's why most of the thieves are here and not on OpenSim. They don't really want your content, they just want to make money.

[161488303349]

OGP - open grid protocol only ever demo login and teleport between 2 separately hosted grids

Zha Ewry made a code fix for an IBM OpenSim host that allowed an account logged in to a linden preview grid to be teleported to the IBM OpenSim host. basically only the account name part of the account domain got teleported/transferred. linden done their end to accept incoming

AWG (the group set up to oversee/develop OGP) was always keen on extending OGP to include inventory/asset as part of the account domain

linden rule out teleporting/transferring assets from their preview grid to any other. even the clothes the avatar was wearing

+

is popular these days to say that linden didnt do bc they want to keep all for themselves. is not true that

linden didnt bc of their own ToS. which said that the creators that made the stuff owned the IP/copyright not linden. that linden only had rights to host on their own servers. they not have permission to transfer to another host without consent of the IP/copyright holders

linden ask the AWG how do we do solve this in a practical way? nobody could come up with a good answer. was lots of partial answers tho. just not a complete one that would actual work for the IP/copyright holders

i think linden still waiting for the answer to that one. until they get it seems they will just carry on working on other stuff

+

edit: i add in IP/copyright bc copyright is more correct

[Phil Deakins]

From what I've read, some stuff that was stolen from SL has been in OpenSim grids for some time. But you're right about money being the motive.

If inter-grid jumping, with inventories, was possible between SL and other grids, then stuff would be stolen by the owners of other grids, and jumped back into SL in inventories. As things stand, stealing stuff in SL, and selling it here, is relatively small scale but, if it could be done by jumping with inventories, sales of stolen stuff in SL would be orders of magnitude more widespread. In fact, creating for sales would be absolutely pointless.

[Phil Deakins]

---

16 wrote:

Zha Ewry made a code fix for an IBM OpenSim host that allowed an account logged in to a linden preview grid to be teleported to the IBM OpenSim host. basically only the account name part of the account domain got teleported/transferred. linden done their end to accept incoming

---

I couldn't remember her name - thank you for that. She was on my friends list at the time but it was a long time ago and I'd forgotten her name.

What puzzles me is how you know all this stuff. The name, 16 (an excellent name, btw), is relatively new to the forums but you know it all. I'm sure that some of what you write is researched at the time you write it, but I'm also sure that much of what you write is remembered because you were around. How long have you (the person, not the avatar) been in SL?

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

The thought of having teleportation between grids fills me, as a content creator, with horror.   

---

That's interesting, considering the fact that LL's walled garden grid is the mothership of content theft. No other grid is so filled with stolen stuff.

If the thieves wanted your content on other grids, it would already be there. The lack of inter-grid teleportation isn't stopping them. The lack of inter-grid currency is.

SL has this thing called "virtual economy" where you can copy other people's stuff and then sell it for a profit. That's why most of the thieves are here and not on OpenSim. They don't really want your content, they just want to make money.

---

It's not a question of "the lack of inter-grid teleportation" stopping content theft.    The point is that, inter-grid teleportation (assuming it's not simply a question of, in effect, transferring from one account to another without having to relog) means your inventory has to go with you, onto servers operated by anyone, where it can be copied and re-permed by whoever runs the server.   

I am, in point of fact, pretty sure you underestimate the difficulties facing someone who wants to steal one of my scripts,  but even for items that are readily stolen, the relative ease with which people may steal would not, to my mind, justify LL unilaterally re-writing the terms under which people's content is stored and used on LL's grid so as to enable anyone who runs their own grid to make a copy of it.

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

From what I've read, some stuff that was stolen from SL has been in OpenSim grids for some time.

---

Most of the time it is the opposite: thieves take freebies from OpenSim grids and sell them in SL. The main reason why content creators are scared of OpenSim is because it is harder to prove that something was uploaded to OpenSim first. LL's datestamps are considered more trustworthy. But as you can see in the case of Curio skins, even the datestamps do not always stop the thieves.

---

If inter-grid jumping, with inventories, was possible between SL and other grids, then stuff would be stolen by the owners of other grids, and jumped back into SL in inventories.

---

No.

The first thing you have to understand is that even in hypergrid teleports between OpenSim grids, assets never move from one grid to another. For example, if you teleport to grid #2 while wearing clothes from grid #1, the viewers of the people logged into grid #2 will download the assets straight from grid #1. Of course, once the assets are downloaded and displayed, they can also be copied. But teleports are not necessary for that. The people of grid #2 could do the same thing simply by logging directly into grid #1, because asset servers are not protected in any way. Assets get downloaded by viewers regardless of permissions, otherwise you would be unable to see the clothes and skins of your fellow avatars. Once you see them, they are already on your computer. The only thing you can't access without permission is scripts.

---

As things stand, stealing stuff in SL, and selling it here, is relatively small scale

---

 You must be kidding.

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

It's not a question of "the lack of inter-grid teleportation" stopping content theft.    The point is that, inter-grid teleportation (assuming it's not simply a question of, in effect, transferring from one account to another without having to relog) means your inventory has to go with you, onto servers operated by anyone, where it can be copied and re-permed by whoever runs the server.   

I am, in point of fact, pretty sure you underestimate the difficulties facing someone who wants to steal one of my scripts,  but even for items that are readily stolen, the relative ease with which people may steal would not, to my mind, justify LL unilaterally re-writing the terms under which people's content is stored and used on LL's grid so as to enable anyone who runs their own grid to make a copy of it.

---

As I explained in my previous comment, inventories don't matter. Assets do, and these are not protected in any way. This is by design.

OpenSim's hypergrid implementation already includes the ability to hide inventories from foreign grids. However, that doesn't stop anyone from copying every single item you wear or rez, uploading it to Linden Lab's grid, and selling it there.

OpenSim's developers already do more to fight content theft than Linden Lab has ever done. Maybe you should take some time to familiarize yourself with the the details of the hypergrid protocol specification. The biggest hurdle the developers have to overcome is the lack of security in Linden Lab's own viewer.

[Innula Zenovka]

So, what's the mechanism precisely?   I tp from the LL grid to Open Sim.   You log in to the same Open Sim a minute or two later, and see me there.   How the the textures, etc, I'm wearing get from LL's servers to your computer?  Does the Open Sim simulator tell your computer to establish a separate connection with LL's servers and ask for the following uuids to be delivered directly?

[Qie Niangao]

None of this is relevant to scripts, which must run on the OpenSim server. And many scripts are worth less than nothing if their source is open, quite independent of any commercial value of intellectual property.

Anyway, the whole discussion about OGP is a flashback to an ancient time when Virtual Worlds had mindshare. Back then, OpenSim made sense to LL. For that matter, only back then did OpenSim make sense, period. Now it's just pulling the last stringy sinews clinging to the bones of a carcasse long past rotting. Once the host is gone completely, OpenSim will have only itself to consume. It's taken no initiative to expand the Virtual World market--who ever starts there?--only taking what's left of Linden's.

[161488303349]

i play on SL 3 times now

1st time 2004 until near end 2005 when linden declare amnesty. i not want that so i just delete my account and went and played on other games. SL was a game up until 2005 when the settlers started to come and turn it into not a game

+

2007 i came back and made a new account. i apply for SL Mentor programme and they say ok pretty much straightaway bc of where i live RL. so i spend most my time on the newbie Welcome and Help Islands

when Mentors shut down then i left again and delete my account

+

i came back again 2010 and made this account. when i read that Rod Humble was coming to linden. thought ok maybe he will do something interesting

probably the thing i seen the most this time is how much fixes linden making. is lots of tiny fixes in last 2 years that nobody much notices but are really good. probably the best two i think is parcel visibility and no stop when your vehicle rightclicked by other person, has been others as well but for me those 2 are the best

+

i never really been in the mainstream of SL tho. like run with the in crowd. even when i was Mentor. never used to go to the Mentor private sims just to hang with lindens and famous mentors. just go the WIs and keep out the way of important people. just watch and listen me

is same this time as well. just do what i do and not bother anyone inworld. like i happy to chat people and help them if i can but apart from that i pretty much stick to myself

 

[161488303349]

---

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

The biggest hurdle the developers have to overcome is the lack of security in Linden Lab's own viewer.

---

guess linden just fixed that then. like please make a non-SL clone of your TPV if you want to let your users access OpenSim

[161488303349]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

 Now it's just pulling the last stringy sinews clinging to the bones of a carcasse long past rotting.

---

you are such a hopeless romantic you are (:

jejejejeje (:

 

[161488303349]

---

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

 

As I explained in my previous comment, inventories don't matter. Assets do, and these are not protected in any way. This is by design.

OpenSim's hypergrid implementation already includes the ability to hide inventories from foreign grids. However, that doesn't stop anyone from copying every single item you wear or rez, uploading it to Linden Lab's grid, and selling it there.

 

---

just on this bit

one thing i havent seen a lot of is how does the costs of asset pulling get settled?

like say i am on grid#1. ok all my assets on grid#1 asset server. i go to grid#2. anyone else i see on grid#2 has to get they assets i am wearing or i am going to be grey/cloud/blob to them

they access to grid#1 asset server thru whichever means and get

who pays for that?

 

 

 

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

16 wrote:

guess linden just fixed that then. like please make a non-SL clone of your TPV if you want to let your users access OpenSim

---

Guess why I keep saying that this is an opportunity to OpenSim rather than a problem.

[Maelstrom Janus]

All I know is that since pathfinding was introducing the standard of 'gameplay' in sl - that is the everyday sl business of moving, exploring, tpping  has plummeted and while all this 'new stuff' is introduced problems which people have complained about for years such as boundary crashes remain as bad as ever. Introduce new stuff when youve got the existing stuff running properly.  The fiasco over increased gb usage when pathfinding was ntroduced was enough to demolish it in my opinion.

Try tackling more important issues such as excessive tier fees before trying to sideline people with usless - yes useless - features which appeal to a few tech heads.....

 

 

 

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

So, what's the mechanism precisely?

---

http://metaverseink.com/blog/?p=459

TL;DR: OpenSim grid operators have complete control over the way their assets are exposed to other grids. They can run private (=firewalled) and public asset servers side by side. They can block the transfer of items from and to the suitcase folder (i.e. the hypergrid-accessible part of the inventory). They can block certain asset classes (e.g. scripts) from ever leaving their grids. They can require residents to change outfits before teleporting out.

There are more features in the works, but they require changes to the viewer UI. In the past, viewer changes were an obstacle, because no one could expect LL to make OpenSim-specific changes to their viewer. But now, with compatibility concerns out of the way and an OpenSim-specific fork of Firestorm available, those changes may finally happen.

[Maelstrom Janus]

I wonder how much all this technical blah appeals to ordinary sl users who maybe want to set up a little home, buy some cheap land, maybe explore a little without crashing every time they tp and without freezing every time they try to move and all at an exorbitant cost.

 

What we need to see is an improvement in normal sl operation without the world becoming home to a mass of agendas for both elitist users and members of its own board.

[Innula Zenovka]

Thanks.  

The article to which you direct me explains that 

---

The existing HG1.5 inventory service, which lets users still access their entire inventory abroad, will still be available in the future. Grids can continue to use that. They can even use the normal inventory service (HG1.0 style) on the Hypergrid, which has no restrictions whatsoever about inventory manipulation. Both of these, however, especially the normal inventory service, are horribly insecure and expose users to all sorts of risks regarding their inventory. Unless the networked grids have 100% trust in each other, I don’t recommend using them.

---

and goes on to  describe a new system (HG 2.0) that enables you to take to other grids only items you're prepared to risk taking and which the grid on which they are hosted will allow you to export and, in the words of the article, make "available for rogue grids to mess with."

 

 

[Cully Andel]

That kind of implies he saw LL as a way of running his own company.

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

Once the host is gone completely, OpenSim will have only itself to consume.

---

I am looking forward to the day when LL shuts down SL and thousands of inventories disappear forever. Because it is precisely those inventories that keep SL residents firmly locked into LL's grid and force them to accept server rental fees that are obscenely high by today's standards. In my humble opinion, virtual property is fraud. Imagine you buy something at Walmart but cannot ever take it outside Walmart. Is it really yours? What exactly did you buy?

---

It's taken no initiative to expand the Virtual World market--who ever 

starts

there?--only taking what's left of Linden's.

---

Its goal has never been to create or expand markets. Its goal is to become the virtual world equivalent of the Apache web server. That was once Linden Lab's goal, before they dropped the ball and transformed into a game company.

[Qie Niangao]

People still use webservers as much as ever before, so it's a relevant thing to commoditize with open source.

Virtual world simulations? Not so much. If LL's Second Life grid ever closes, the hypergrid will slowly fade even further into obscurity, having never marketed anything to anyone other than the most dissatisfied of LL's customers.

Oh, I'm sure there will remain die-hard devotees, perhaps for generations, with all the quaint fervor of ham radio operators. (The advantage going to the hams inasmuch as they're actually useful when disaster suspends all other communications.)

Or somebody may surprise us all one day and actually do something with OpenSim that has practical significance to a target-worthy market of users. I'm not expecting to be surprised, though. LL practically held the door open with its geek-only-and-forever implementation of Mesh. An engraved invitation to the revolution, and yet which OpenSim grid supports in-world Mesh creation?

It would be funny if it weren't so sad, all the frantic scrambling to pursue Second Life down the rabbit hole of irrelevance. 

[Masami Kuramoto]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

People still use webservers as much as ever before, so it's a relevant thing to commoditize with open source.

---

Before web servers were commoditized with open source, people were very happy inside the walled gardens provided by CompuServe and AOL.

Second Life is the AOL of virtual worlds. When it disappears, where else will people go if not to OpenSim? You think they will bury the idea of shared 3D environments altogether just because all the commercial attempts failed?

[Qie Niangao]

No, I think the commercial attempts fail because virtual worlds as currently conceived just don't generate much interest... and as OpenSim proves, even "free as in beer" is too expensive to draw a crowd.

[161488303349]

---

Masami Kuramoto wrote:

---

16 wrote:

guess linden just fixed that then. like please make a non-SL clone of your TPV if you want to let your users access OpenSim

---

Guess why I keep saying that this is an opportunity to OpenSim rather than a problem.

---

guesee why i already agree with this thought earlier in the thread. jejejejjeje (:

[161488303349]

---

Maelstrom Janus wrote:

I wonder how much all this technical blah appeals to ordinary sl users who maybe want to set up a little home, buy some cheap land, maybe explore a little without crashing every time they tp and without freezing every time they try to move and all at an exorbitant cost.

 

What we need to see is an improvement in normal sl operation without the world becoming home to a mass of agendas for both elitist users and members of its own board.

---

on preview grid is the new threading code for sim crossings. is quite a bit better than the current way seems like. hopefully we will get soon on main grid

+

pathfinding/navmesh is for pets/animals/npc/cretaures mostly. lots of ordinary people buy pets/animals/creatures. will be way less laggy for them. the navmesh enabled pets/animals

+

$72 a year is pretty good price for anyone who just wants a liitle house and weekly pocket money for their avatar. is when we want more than this that the price goes up