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Why I consider "path finding" useless in SL, and what do people use it for?


Mircea Lobo
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CC is quite a good license i think

ike can release mod/no mod. commercial resell/no resell

like set your perms however you want

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is quite good for indie musos who hoping to build a audience/fan base. and good for amateur musos who just make music for fun and get some recognition/attribution if something they done goes viral

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is some big mainstream artists who do some CC project stuff. not all their stuff tho. bc they rather get paid to make music fulltime. than say have to work behind the bar selling drinks to pay their rents

 

 

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

>> "A web server isn't a website either"

 

A web server accessible from a network and hosting at least one web page is a website. In this case, the web page is the OpenSim grid login page. The viewer displays it using its built-in WebKit renderer. Technically this makes the viewer a web browser, although its main purpose is obviously something else.

 

Can we leave it at that, Mr. Deakins? Or would you like to bore us a little more?

I'd like to bore you a little more.

Servers hosting webpages are servers and *not* websites. They store/host the pages of websites but they are not themselves websites.

A viewer is not a browser. It's a programme that interacts with an online system that is not a website.

We can leave it at that if you like.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm curious. Which part of LL's platform does not help [creators] make a living from the content they upload? The platform includes a system for selling stuff for L$, and it has a system for converting L$ to US$, and for cashing out US$. The system has everything for making a living.

Technically, the platform is indeed well equipped. The only thing missing is the steady influx of new customers on a level comparable to 2007. That's why SL's land mass is shrinking dramatically and its mainland cheaper than ever before.

So you now disagree with what you previously said, and have come round to the right way of thinking. That's good.

 

I'm a creator and, for a long time, I made an RL living from SL, and that only stopped because I chose to stop it and not because it was forced on me in any way. So what part of the platform don't you understand?

You don't seem to understand that different parts of the world have different standards of living. In my part of the world, you can make money faster and easier by flipping burgers. SL content creation is something you do when unemployed. In other parts of the world, where the cost of living is lower, a few bucks made in SL may indeed support a family. It's a globalized platform after all. I once heard that most of Anshe's staff is working from China.

I do know that different parts of the world have different living standards and greatly different wages. I understand that very well. But I'm in the UK and a living wage here is pretty much the same as it is in the U.S., if not more. And yet SL provided me with a very decent living income for the UK, and for as long as I chose to continue it. So what were you saying? ;)

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

You don't seem to understand that different parts of the world have different standards of living. In my part of the world, you can make money faster and easier by flipping burgers. SL content creation is something you do when unemployed. In other parts of the world, where the cost of living is lower, a few bucks made in SL may indeed support a family. It's a globalized platform after all. I once heard that most of Anshe's staff is working from China.


all them people in China should just work for free. like they not hardly get any money from making stuff like phones and clothes for us. is not worth their while really. so they should just give us. will be a better world for us that way

not

 

 

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So, pathfinding, I guess we can all agree is useful if you're into sl aminals, and may become useful for everyone who's not into sl animals in the future, depending on how the merchants decide to use it in the objects they sell.

But Opensim... What keeps all the ppeople who are talking it up here in sl? I'm not asking to be rude. I'm asking because both grids have theri advantages and disadvantages. I looked at opensim, and it looked like a great resource for groups, but not so much for individuals.

I say that because most of us prefer to go to busier sims. Even on a sim, most of us like to be with a group of people. So exploring opensim alone, like I did, was actually very boring. The land costs are far lower than sl, which is awesome for land owners, but it felt like there was maybe too much land for too few people.

If you have a group, and some of your members can do all those things that are needed in sl, then opensim has potential. I can see it being a popular option for schools, for roleplay groups, or for people who regularly go to venues in sl together to build one that's perfect for them.

To me, the two grids seem too different to compare, let alone directly compete with eachother despite any apparent or real technical similarities.

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pathfinding is still pretty new..i'm sure there will be some good uses that come from it in time..

i remember hearing about it and thought..wow it would be neat to have some wild horses just running around my sim..that and other wild life..

fantasy forests could really take advantage of something like this i would think..

i haven't been in anything using it yet..so i really don't know what it's like..but i am just remembering talking to someone about it and what was kicked around in the discussion..

not sure about games and things since i don't really play them on here..but for a private sim owner..i would think they could really do some things to make their sims feel more natural to them or bring some things to life in a few ways when they get down and creative on them..

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

The only way to work without that clause is if every single creator owned and operated their own asset server.

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't they?

Don't get confused by what Mr. Deakins said. OpenSim hosting is just like website hosting. Each running instance of OpenSim comes with its own asset server by default.

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And those assets are never distributed to any other servers but the one owned by the creator? Obviously not, so instead it must be that the creator licenses assets for distribution to servers owned by--whom? Must everyone who licenses content have their own server to host the licensed assets? Because if there's anybody in the middle, that party must have the same grant to redistribute as LL gets.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

The only way to work without that clause is if every single creator owned and operated their own asset server.

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't they?

Don't get confused by what Mr. Deakins said. OpenSim hosting is just like website hosting. Each running instance of OpenSim comes with its own asset server by default.

Why wouldn't they, are you joking? Yes you're right, everybody secretly dreams of being a sysadmin. Of setting up their own server, installing all the software, keeping everything up to date, trouble shooting hardware problems. Yes everyone wants to do that, no really. Why would anybody use a third party site like facebook, youtube, gmail or twitter when they could just run their own site. That's totally what everybody does.

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leliel Mirihi wrote:


Masami Kuramoto wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

The only way to work without that clause is if every single creator owned and operated their own asset server.

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't they?

Don't get confused by what Mr. Deakins said. OpenSim hosting is just like website hosting. Each running instance of OpenSim comes with its own asset server by default.

Why wouldn't they, are you joking? Yes you're right, everybody secretly dreams of being a sysadmin. Of setting up their own server, installing all the software, keeping everything up to date, trouble shooting hardware problems. Yes everyone wants to do that, no really. Why would anybody use a third party site like facebook, youtube, gmail or twitter when they could just run their own site. That's totally what everybody does.

jejejeje (:

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can make really even easier for everyone. like just turn on remote sharing on your computer. will be world peace and only love bc only truly open determine the artist from the thief apparently and artist dont thief anything obviously

for them that abuse your hospitality and pinch your stuff. dunno why they would tho . but if they do can just block them. like one at a time. all the way upto about 6 billions if you want

will be really good this tho. like am totally totally total going to do myself. am not going to bother with any firewall either now (:

 

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

Why wouldn't they, are you joking? Yes you're right, everybody secretly dreams of being a sysadmin. Of setting up their own server, installing all the software, keeping everything up to date, trouble shooting hardware problems. Yes everyone wants to do that, no really. Why would anybody use a third party site like facebook, youtube, gmail or twitter when they could just run their own site. That's totally what everybody does.

Many people do run their own sites, but few of them are sysadmins. Does the term "managed hosting" ring a bell?

Example: According to Wikipedia, the WordPress 3.0 content management system was downloaded 65 million times in 2011. Why didn't those people just get a hosted blog at wordpress.com, blogger.com or elsewhere?

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


leliel Mirihi wrote:

Why wouldn't they, are you joking? Yes you're right, everybody secretly dreams of being a sysadmin. Of setting up their own server, installing all the software, keeping everything up to date, trouble shooting hardware problems. Yes everyone wants to do that, no really. Why would anybody use a third party site like facebook, youtube, gmail or twitter when they could just run their own site. That's totally what everybody does.

Many people do run their own sites, but few of them are sysadmins. Does the term "managed hosting" ring a bell?

Example: According to Wikipedia, the WordPress 3.0 content management system was downloaded 65 million times in 2011. Why didn't those people just get a hosted blog at wordpress.com, blogger.com or elsewhere?

Website administration is a subset of system administration...

So after some quick googling it looks like there's an estimated 2.4B intenet users as of 2011, 65M downloads is ~2.7%. Sounds like a great plan, hope it works out for you.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

So you now disagree with what you previously said

No, I don't disagree with what I previously said. Feel free to quote what I previously said, then it might become obvious to you.
;)

You gave the impression that LL has not provided the means to make an RL living from SL. This is what you wrote:- "From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload.". I said they have provided the help to do that, by provoding the means to do it, and I gave an example of someone actually doing it. You agreed that they have provided the means, so your agreement is the opposite of what you said earlier.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote and you really meant that LL should hold the creators' hands and lead them into making RL livings from SL by doing the selling for them, or by making users go to their stores in large numbers, or some idiotic thing like that.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:

Don't get confused by what Mr. Deakins said. OpenSim hosting is just like website hosting. Each running instance of OpenSim comes with its own asset server by default.

What Mr. Deakins said is that SL is not a website and an SL viewer is not a browser. You'd said that SL is a website and the viewer is a browser, but Mr. Deakins was absolutely correct and you were absolutely wrong.

You're now trying to make a subtle change by making a little switch from 'website' to 'web hosting', as though what Mr. Deakins said was about web hosting. You should know better than to think you can get away with subtle changes like that ;)

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leliel Mirihi wrote:

So after some quick googling it looks like there's an estimated 2.4B intenet users as of 2011, 65M downloads is ~2.7%. Sounds like a great plan, hope it works out for you.

That comparison makes no sense. The total number of public blogs in 2011 was 156 million, not 2.4 billion.

In fact it seems that the majority of WordPress blogs is hosted outside wordpress.com. Private hosting is far from dead.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You gave the impression that LL has not provided the means to make an RL living from SL. This is what you wrote:- "
From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload.
". I said they have provided the help to do that, by provoding the means to do it, and I gave an example of someone actually doing it. You agreed that they have provided the means, so your agreement is the opposite of what you said earlier.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote and you really meant that LL should hold the creators' hands and lead them into making RL livings from SL by doing the selling for them, or by making users go to their stores in large numbers, or some idiotic thing like that.

Providing the technical means alone doesn't help if there is no sufficiently large customer base to sell content to. SL's economy has many elements of a Ponzi scheme, where each participant is relying on even more people coming after him. As soon as the influx declines, the system becomes unsustainable.

Let's look at the facts again: the number of private regions is decreasing, the size of occupied mainland is decreasing, the number of inworld shops is decreasing, many creators "tier down" and offer their products on the web marketplace only.

If fewer and fewer creators can afford their own land, what does this tell about their ability to make a living?

Your own example doesn't even work as anecdotal counter-evidence. "I could make a living in SL, but I choose not to." That's like the smoker who could quit at any time but "chooses" not to. The truth is, if you do decide to re-enter the market, someone else's sales will decline, because each customer dollar can be spent only once. We can't make a living merely by selling prims to one another; the money has to come from outside sources.

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Masami Kuramoto wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

You gave the impression that LL has not provided the means to make an RL living from SL. This is what you wrote:- "
From the creator's point of view, this would be acceptable if LL's platform helped them make a living from the content they upload.
". I said they have provided the help to do that, by provoding the means to do it, and I gave an example of someone actually doing it. You agreed that they have provided the means, so your agreement is the opposite of what you said earlier.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote and you really meant that LL should hold the creators' hands and lead them into making RL livings from SL by doing the selling for them, or by making users go to their stores in large numbers, or some idiotic thing like that.

Providing the technical means alone doesn't help if there is no sufficiently large customer base to sell content to. SL's economy has many elements of a Ponzi scheme, where each participant is relying on even more people coming after him. As soon as the influx declines, the system becomes unsustainable.

Let's look at the facts again: the number of private regions is decreasing, the size of occupied mainland is decreasing, the number of inworld shops is decreasing, many creators "tier down" and offer their products on the web marketplace only.

If fewer and fewer creators can afford their own land, what does this tell about their ability to make a living?

Your own example doesn't even work as anecdotal counter-evidence. "I
could
make a living in SL, but I
choose
not to." That's like the smoker who could quit at any time but "chooses" not to. The truth is, if you do decide to re-enter the market, someone else's sales will decline, because each customer dollar can be spent only once. We can't make a living merely by selling prims to one another; the money has to come from outside sources.

Ok. First off, LL never made any claims that users could make RL livings from SL just by opening a shop. So what's your problem?

Second, there is a sufficiently large userbase to make an RL living from SL. What you have to do is sell your stuff to them, and that doesn't mean merely opening a store, believing that the system owners should provide customers who buy from you. If you want to make money in SL, you have to work at it - just like in RL.

Third, SL is nothing like a ponzi sceme - not by any stretch of intelligent imagination. If you think it is, you'd better explain your reasoning in real detail, with accurate comparisons between SL and a ponzi scheme.

Fourth, the fact that SL is on a very slow decline does not mean that there aren't enough users for someone to make an RL living here. How many tens of thousands of daily users do you want for there to be enough users to make a living from?

Fifth, my own experience works as perfect evidence to prove that you are wrong. All you've done is prove that you don't read too well - when you wrote that I said "I could make ..." when, in fact, I'd written that I did make a very decent RL living from SL. Later I chose to let it slide. I made such a decent RL living from SL that it's been over 2½ years since I decided to let it slide and I still make enough RL money from it to make it worthwhile keeping open. I wasn't stupid enough to simply shut off the flow of money. Incidentally, I'm far from the only one who made that kind of money in SL. Did you try to do it yourself? If you did, did you fail? And if you failed, is that why you're so down on SL - because the system owners let you down?

And finally, I'm still in the market (I didn't say my store had closed. It hasn't)  but, of course, if a shop opens and makes some sales, other shops will have fewer sales because of it. The size of the pie is finite. Dynamic but finite. I am talking the whole of life here, and not just SL. So do you have a point in mentioning that? Do you think SL trading should be different to RL trading? It seems you do because you want the sales to be handed to you on a plate instead of having to actually compete. Can you tell me where to get a ticket to this cloud cuckoo land that you live in. It sounds like a really good place to be. I could make a fortune there without lifting a finger, and then come back to the real world and I'd be rich :D

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>> "my own experience works as perfect evidence to prove that you are wrong."

 

Wrong about what? The current downward trend of the SL economy? Its causes, symptoms and consequences? You must be kidding.

 

You made a living two years ago, so we can't be in a recession right now. Yeah, that makes sense. I stand corrected, lol.

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Your view of making a living in SL is wrong, and you were wrong when you intentionally misquoted what I said.

You said that my experience was not evidence that it could be done and my evidence proved that, not only can it be done, but also that it IS done.

Even in the post I'm replying to (immediately above this post) you said I must be kidding about things you attributed to me even though I never said anything like them..

You've been wrong about the RL living aspect of SL and, to back up your mistakes, you've had to resort to attributing to people (me) things they didn't say. You've been digging a hole for yourself and I suggest you drop it before it gets too deep.

Incidentally, I didn't say that I made a living 2 years ago. That's something else you invented and attributed to me. I said I decided to let the store fade over 2½ years ago. It had been making a living for me for a couple of years before that and it continued to make a living for me a long time after that - at least 1½ years more. It's still making worthwhile RL money for me but it's no longer enough to be an RL living here in the UK.

Honestly, if you're going to discuss something seriously, you really do need to discuss accurately and avoid inventing things. When you write what you invent about people, other people may believe it at the time they read it. But when the target corrects what you've invented, everyone sees that you've just been inventing stuff, and it's you who is on the wrong end of it.

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Point blank here (general response):

1. Pathfinding is in its infancy and real judgement cannot be passed on it.

2. The policies of Linden Lab back when they had a far more substantial Age Verification system were well within the law. Anyone thinking that having to hand over copies of their identification to Linden Lab should an issue arise wherein the initial information given to them has come under question constitutes a potential security breach ... needs to terminate all of their Internet accounts, e-mail accounts, etc, terminate their ISP services, unplug their PC, box it up and send it back to their manufacturer (after performing a full wipe of their data by any means deemed needed) and move into the mountains to become a hermit.

3. A Second Life/ OS Grid server is not a web page - period. This forum? It's a web page. SL/OSG servers? No - they're far more like a WoW/MMO/Online Game/Content Distribution server.

4. Content distributors must follow a certain set of laws regarding the distribution of copyrighted materials. If they do not, they risk serious reprecussions should they be taken to court.

5. Don't like any of what I've said? Tough. Welcome to Life. Get over it.

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>> "A Second Life/ OS Grid server is not a web page - period. This forum? It's a web page. SL/OSG servers? No - they're far more like a WoW/MMO/Online Game/Content Distribution server."

 

I am getting somewhat tired of people misquoting me and then refuting those misquotes as if they had anything to do with me. This is what I actually said:

 

"Technically, an OpenSim grid is a website"

 

I said "technically," not "pedantically." The fact that not all of its formats and protocols are W3C-approved doesn't matter. Otherwise most webcasts wouldn't be WEBcasts. You got that?

 

Here's why OpenSim is not like a WoW/MMO/Online Game/Content Distribution server:

 

1. There is no game, no inherent purpose or goal.

 

2. There are no shards. Each place is unique and can be referenced by a globally unique URL (opensim://host:port/region/x/y/z/).

 

3. The content is persistent but not static. The world is streamed and cached, not downloaded in advance.

 

4. There are no technical barriers between grids. The same "browser" is used for all of them. Avatars can teleport from one grid to another. Items from one grid can be rezzed on another. Instant messages can be sent from one grid to another.

 

5. The grids are hyperlinked. Regions of one grid can appear on the map of another. It is possible to link from web pages to grid locations and back.

 

6. There is a sense of identity. I am the same avatar wherever I teleport. My hypergrid ID is unique like an email address. My inventory is persistent. Try traveling from WoW to SWTOR to see what I mean.

 

7. The platform is not proprietary. Its formats and protocols are open and "de facto" standardized. There is no limit to its scale. It can't be shut down.

 

8. The platform is decentralized. No one will ever know exactly how large the hypergrid is. You can run a grid behind a firewall and enjoy total privacy.

 

9. The software is cross-platform. Both the server and the client run on Linux. Turning a LAMP server into a LOM server is a matter of minutes.

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