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My issues with Phoenix

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I originally used the LL viewer and, being used to the display and where things are located, find it really hard using Phoenix. I love the basic set up of the LL viewer--the easy access tabs on the side, the--IMO--much better camera set up, and the easy access to my landmarks and favorites that Phoenix seems to make such a hassle. I also hate the fact I have to x out messages in order to get the pop up screens to go away, when they normally disappear after a short time in LL. I know so many people rave over Phoenix--and, especially as of late, it does seem to be more stable.

My questions is can I customize the set up of Phoenix to be more like the LL viewer? If I could change a few things I might actually use it, but as it stands now I can't bring myself to like it regardless of its improved stability.

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Phoenix is not very flexible with its interface, it is buggy, it is missing more and more modern features, and even its maintainers have mostly given up on it as too much trouble to fix. Don't try to get attached to it now, its days are numbered.

The same group has moved on to another viewer project called Firestorm that you can download from the same Phoenix web site. It comes with a skin that mimacs the old Phoenix layout, but includes the features you are missing from modern viewers. Give that a try.

Of course, if you were happy with the standard Second Life viewer, you could go back to using that one. There is a bizarre tendency in SL to promote viewers with religious fervor, but it's still OK to use what you personally like!

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I agree with what Cerise says. Forget about Phoenix, it is like saying you are using Windows 7 or 8 now but want to start using Windows XP. As said before there are plenty of viewers available, use the one YOU like not the one all your friends seem to like. Firestorm is not the only viewer either, there are plenty others like Dolphin, NIran's viewer, Exodus among others, go try them all and use the one you fall in love with.

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If you like the basic interface of the LL viewer but just want a few more features, I suggest trying out Dolphin, Catznip or Exodus. What sorts of stability problems are you having with the LL viewer?

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Phoenix is ancient technology. 2009 viewer that is based on 2003 code, and has been hacked and cracked to work in 2012.

The viewer that a lot of people who like 'alternative viewers' tend to go in for now is Firestorm. It is the Phoenix team's answer to the official viewer - hoping to carry their feature set forward into the future. If you hear of something in Phoenix, and can't find it in the official viewer - it is probably in Firestorm.

But keep in mind that about 105% of the things people say the official viewer lacks, are actually in there. ;)

Above said, I personally use the official viewer, as it fits my comfort zone.

 

Phoenix is a V1 viewer, and slowly and surely LLs is -breaking- the V1 code. They have been 'turning out the lights' in dusty rooms here and there as time goes on. Mostly with features many have not noticed on a day to day basis. But the list will only continue to get longer. The newest addition to that list will cause problems for old V1 viewers when they try to open up larger groups. Other issues you might not think you notice, but you definately will: like creeping lagginess, lesser graphics, poorer compatability with features when graphics cards get updates, outdated protocols for loading in textures, objects, and inventory (which will make SL feel slower than it does for someone standing right next to you), etc...

- Using V1 is, in essense, handicapping.

Soon or later they will also release some planned changes to uploading objects, inventory, and accessing objects inworld. When these go live you might see V1 viewers simply unable to use inventory... or on a lesser scale, unable to upload textures.

 

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And another perspective here....(not to get  you to use the Phoenix viewer as it is no longer being supported by the owners)...

I began SL in 2007 with LL viewer 1.x.  I liked the viewer but a few updates after I began SL the IM and chat windows could not be made as small as previously and I had a smaller monitor so the larger windows ate up a bunch of screen space.  I was introduced to the Nicholaz viewer which looked almost identical to the LL viewer, but kept the features people liked (being able to resize the windows a bit smaller) and put in one or two additional features.  I continued updating Nicholaz over the years until LL viewer 2 came out which I, and many other "older residents" hated - especially the Facebook type buttons. (The CEO before Rod, M Linden, wanted to turn SL into FB.)  I tried the v2 but, after spending about a half hour to figure out how to turn the music off, I said heck with that.  Phoenix was fairly new at the time, iirc, so I began using Phoenix and I personally LOVED it because it was more like viewer 1.x but with snazzy additional features.

I see comments about 1.x being old school, etc. but I think in large part it depends on the viewer one began using when they began SL.  There are older residents who do like v2/v3 (I have no idea how much v3 has changed from v2 since my current PC won't run it) but the people I run into who love v3 began when it was the official viewer.  The people I run into that hate it began SL when v1.x was the official viewer.

Still using Phoenix here due to my PC but more and more features are being broken.  Once I get my new PC I will try out Firestorm and use the Phoenix interface.  And I *am* still using XP and now I have to learn Win 8....arrrrggghhh.

Yes, I'm a Luddite and proud of it. *Grins*

*Edited for mistakes

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Actually, i would not concentrate on Phoenix anymore. It's too heavy, lacks latest tech and certainly lacks the modern rendering 'machine'. It's not flexible in terms to transfer it into an LL variant. Firestorm (a modern variant of Phoenix based on LL-2-3-code) does actually try to, however it's heavy as well and therefore very laggy. And it's always behind on LL.

I've used Phoenix for a year since i had no alternative for Asus high-end notebooks and Mesh, i am on. However, for the moment the Singularity Viewer (SV) is totally my thing. V1-look it has at your screen indeed, but under the booth it has fast 2/3 technology, rezzes mesh super fast and it adds tons of Basic FPS.

If there is any viewer coder to make it into a SL 3 hybrid, it would be SV.

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If you like the LL viewer but want the extra features of Phoenix that LL's lack, move to Firestorm.  It is the most stable viewer in SL based on actual crash statistics.  You get al the extra features you like and the V3 type interface.

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

Still using Phoenix here due to my PC but more and more features are being broken.  Once I get my new PC I will try out Firestorm and use the Phoenix interface.  And I *am* still using XP and now I have to learn Win 8....arrrrggghhh.

Yes, I'm a Luddite and proud of it. *Grins*

 

You might be still using XP 'cause it works. I know. What a concept. I freely admit the fabulously quick searching functions of 7 are terrific, but the 'Please let me do this for you: I"m pretty sure you haven't a clue" way it handles networks and file sharing sometimes drives me nuts. But then, 7 is over. We're at 8 now. A timeline:

1995-1998: Windows 95—three years.

1998-2000: Windows 98 (First and Second), Windows 2000, and Windows Me—three OS's in two years.

2001-2005: Windows XP (that 2005 is Microsoft's official year on the history page I used to get these dates. It was a  fully supported Microsoft OS until 2010 (I think: I can't remember the announcement year). Even taking MS at their word: Four years, one OS.

2006-2008: Vista

2009-2012: 7, now supplanted by 8. The longest running fully supported well-loved OS by far is XP. I'm not saying other things aren't better. I am saying XP was pretty damn good.

 

Note that this comment has to do with Microsoft operating systems only (and yes I left out NT: on purpose) and is not meant to compare Microsoft OS's to those of any other entity.

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

I see comments about 1.x being old school, etc. but I think in large part it depends on the viewer on began using when they enjoyed SL.  There are older residents who do like v2/v3 (I have no idea how much v3 has changed from v2 since my current PC won't run it) but the people I run into who love v3 began when it was the official viewer.  The people I run into that hate it began SL when v1.x was the official viewer.

 

Not all 'oldbies' stick with the old interface.  I started sl in 2006 my partner in 2005, we both use current FIrestorm, and know a lot of other's oldbies that do too.   Yes it took a few days to get used to it over the old V1 interface but it was well worth the trouble.  I think it is a lot more flexible and has some great features that Phoenix and other V1 interface viewers lack.  I hated the V2 based interface an stuck with V1 but V3 is an improvement in my opinion.  BTW, you can actually set up Firestorm to resemble the phoenix interface.  It is also a much more efficient viewer and most people with older computers actually see a performance increase.  Give it a real try for a few days.

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Linda Brynner wrote:

Actually, i would not concentrate on Phoenix anymore. It's too heavy, lacks latest tech and certainly lacks the modern rendering 'machine'. It's not flexible in terms to transfer it into an LL variant. Firestorm (a modern variant of Phoenix based on LL-2-3-code) does actually try to, however it's heavy as well and therefore very laggy. And it's always behind on LL.


Firestorm is not heavy to a new computer. Stop using old technology from 5 years ago.  Common sense does apply here. A stock 2005 Camaro will not outperm a stock 2012 one. You follow?

 

And another, EVERY SINGLE TPV is behind LL these days since the shared user experience was put into place. TPV's can no longer just create addons. They need to be submitted for LL approval first. They cannot add it into their viewers until it is in the Official LL viewer.

LL viewer code is handed out to the TPV's after they roll out new features. Hence every single TPV will be behind the Offical LL Viewer.

This is just a way to try and get people to use that hunk of garbage. Sadly LL, it has not worked and probably never will. Which leads me to the viewer tags. LL hated seeing Phoenix/Firestorm/Singularity etc plastered all over a product that they designed in which fewer than 20% use the Offical LL Viewer.

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

There are older residents who do like v2/v3 (I have no idea how much v3 has changed from v2 since my current PC won't run it) but the people I run into who love v3 began when it was the official viewer.  The people I run into that hate it began SL when v1.x was the official viewer.

 

Not all 'oldbies' stick with the old interface.  I started sl in 2006 my partner in 2005, we both use current FIrestorm, and know a lot of other's oldbies that do too.   Yes it took a few days to get used to it over the old V1 interface but it was well worth the trouble.  I think it is a lot more flexible and has some great features that Phoenix and other V1 interface viewers lack.  I hated the V2 based interface an stuck with V1 but V3 is an improvement in my opinion.

I made the switch in the V2 beta. The writing was on the wall, so I forced myself through. At first I was agreeing with a lot of others on "we really have to use this?" But it only took me two days to get used to it.

If you can't get used to a new UI after a few days, you might not have the brainpower for the modern world... (not the same as liking - just able to use it normally).

After a week, I was finding it preferable to my forays backwards.

Nonetheless I didn't really give up on V1 for a while - I kept using Emerald for temp texture uploads until a series of scandals began to emerge... Mostly allegations that were never proven - BUT their response was not to show facts, but to get irrational and angry at anyone asking for facts, and that's a major danger sign. When someone's response to being questioned is to say "how dare you question the great and powerful me" - that's a person who is no longer 'normal.' Sure enough eventually one of them was caught in a potentially felonous act of using all their users to covertly commit a denial of service attack.

- That called it for me on trusting TPVs. Though I still made some forays into Imprudence for the temp-uploads. And I tried to switch to Kirstens until the day I found that logging into it also logged me into some instant messenger service embedded inside it... That was a freak-out moment of 'what credentials are being used to this thing that is not on LLs servers?' Likely nothing was amis - but I had to question why someone would think putting that in there would not be seen as a security breach.

Official viewer may not have the most features - though it does have equivalents of near all of them - but at least I know that if they're hacking something, we're all screwed anyway... They have nothing to gain from something fishy in their viewer; they have all our info anyway...

 

Open Source is the "wonderful utopian idea" that code will improve from all sorts of people contributing and will remain safe and clean because anyone can check it. BUT... if that was really true, how did Emerald get away with what it was doing for so long? How did that code even make it into the live release when there was suppossedly a whole team there that would have found what the one person did?

- People over time start to trust people they "like" who do "powerful stuff" rather than basing trust on objective observation of someone, or looking into hard tests of integrity. So they don't check their "heroes"... They just assume that "these people are kewl, so they wouldn't do that."

- That as a result, means what happened in Emerald shouldn't be seen as an exception, but rather a likely outcome for any open source project that doesn't have third party neutral or even hostile policing oversight.

Especially when it combines with the power corrupts issue - give a lone coder a lot of authority and no oversight, and it will go to their head. Sooner or later they start doing things because "unlike those lesser people, they know what should or needs to be done."

Others start to enjoy the powerful toys of that person, and mistake this as a sign of trustability - people want to trust their heroes; but folks with power are usually least deserving of trust.

- Witness the Penn State molesting scandal. People were shocked, but this is about the norm for such things: a person with power, people hero worship and so oversight vanishes, and corruption and wickedness sets in.

 

 

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I want to add a comment here to address the issue of V1 viewers being called "old tech."

What we have to differentiate is between the Engine and the GUI (or interface).

It's kind of like choosing a car.  You can get the same model with different engines.

There is nothing wrong with preferring a particular interface.  Some people like the look and feel of Phoenix.  They like how it handles.  The problem is it  is very difficult to stick a viewer 3 engine under it's hood.

I have used and still do occasionally switch between Models (Viewers).   Personally my preferred Model was the Firestorm Beta.  It was FOR ME the most intuitive interface I ever used.  I wish they could or would squeeze the V3 engine under it's hood. 

Unfortunately because they cant stick the new engine under the old hoods, or it is difficult to do, we all are having to choose new viewers.  Be willing to try different things and find what works best for you.

The main thing is we all want to get to our destination in one piece and have fun along the way.

 

 

 

 

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I was a fangirl Nicholaz in 2007, since a good friend introduced me to it. Remember the days whne you couldn't istall it but all you got was some files you had to replace in your LL/SL viewer? It was faster and fancier than LL production viewers. That was when I decided to never go back to LL viewers. Also lateron I used to use Snowglobe or what it was called.

Then it was Emerald for a short while. And then the Phoenix, which was the greatest viewer of all times, couldn't have been happier. And then the apocalypse hit SL very hard: V2 was a disaster! No way to put it politely. It was fugly and totally missed its purpose. It was as if someone added a second screen between me and SL. So much clicking to get the most basic tasks done, absolutely unacceptable. And all the outsourcing of stuff into the web. Terrible! I'm on SL not on FB. If I wanted to join a sovial network I'd be on FB but I don't so I won't.  Maybe it's true, I don't have the necessary brainpower to adjust to modern technology very fast, and I'm stubborn and inflexible but V2 was hate at first sight for me.

Well, slowly I saw the mighty Phoenix userbase fizzle away and more and more treaters leaving the comfort zone of Phoenix and joining the V2 and V2-like TPV camp. Like FS for instance. I tried it as welI but always gave up after half an hour or so. Always when I needed to get stuff done I was on Phoenix and stayed with Phoenix. Proud and lonesome.

Until a couple weeks ago Phoenix became unbearable, so I finally caved in and switched to FS. I just use it with the Phoenix interface so I have the illusion to be still on a V1 viewer. I still get angry about a lot of stuff in FS. What are all those little boxes stealing my screen space, with those IMs and notices in them? Why don't they just show up llike they always did? IMs in local chat and notices as notices on my screen. Stupid clunky chunky piece of uselessness. But otoh FS framerate is much higher and rendering is much faster than it ever was on Phoenix.

I stick with it for now until someone comes up with a viable alternative, lightweight, fast, stable, full of added goodness and with as less stuff as possible going on on screen.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Open Source is the "wonderful utopian idea" that code will improve from all sorts of people contributing and will remain safe and clean because anyone can check it. BUT... if that was really true, how did Emerald get away with what it was doing for so long? How did that code even make it into the live release when there was suppossedly a whole team there that would have found what the one person did?

 Those Emerald devs got away with it for so long because the project wasn't actually open source. The source code repository they showed to the public didn't compile into the same binary they put up on there web page. That was one of the pieces of evidence that something fishy was going on. Add to that the fact that most of the Emerald devs themselves didn't even have access to the true repo, all access to the real source code for the project was controlled by just two developers, who just happened to be known griefers with very shady pasts. It's a wonder anybody ever used that viewer at all.

There was plenty of evidence to show that those Emerald devs were up to no good many months before the end, but the viewer was so popular, and LL's viewer so hated, at the time that many people just refused to believe it. Emerald is a prime example of people willfully ignoring loud and clear signs of danger for the sake of comfort and features. It's a black stain in the history of SL that should not be forgotten.

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TristanMercer wrote:

Firestorm is not heavy to a new computer. Stop using old technology from 5 years ago.  Common sense does apply here. A stock 2005 Camaro will not outperm a stock 2012 one. You follow?


And another, EVERY SINGLE TPV is behind LL these days since the shared user experience was put into place. TPV's can no longer just create addons. They need to be submitted for LL approval first. They cannot add it into their viewers until it is in the Official LL viewer.

LL viewer code is handed out to the TPV's after they roll out new features. Hence every single TPV will be behind the Offical LL Viewer.

This is just a way to try and get people to use that hunk of garbage. Sadly LL, it has not worked and probably never will. Which leads me to the viewer tags. LL hated seeing Phoenix/Firestorm/Singularity etc plastered all over a product that they designed in which fewer than 20% use the Offical LL Viewer.

 


Actually they can create new features as long as it only effects the user of the TPV and not everyone else's experience IN WORLD too or violate LL's privacy policies. Otherwise it is allowed. They don't have to wait for LL tp approve and incorporate them.  Firestorm has many useful features LL's viewers don't have as a result. 

Many of the LL's viewers newer useful features actually orginated with TPV.  When LL adds something new to theirs that isn't in the TPV's, the developers of TPV's generally act quickly to integrate into theirs. They participate in the Beta's as well as developer meetings so they don't have to wait for the official release of the before they bring their's up to date.  Most of the time they do it better than LL and the result is a more stable viewer.  Its worth the short wait IMO.  Firestorm has the all time record lowest crash rate of ANY viewer as of September according to LL's own statistics. (Source)

 

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

I see comments about 1.x being old school, etc. but I think in large part it depends on the viewer on began using when they enjoyed SL.  There are older residents who do like v2/v3 (I have no idea how much v3 has changed from v2 since my current PC won't run it) but the people I run into who love v3 began when it was the official viewer.  The people I run into that hate it began SL when v1.x was the official viewer.

 

Not all 'oldbies' stick with the old interface.  I started sl in 2006 my partner in 2005, we both use current FIrestorm, and know a lot of other's oldbies that do too.   Yes it took a few days to get used to it over the old V1 interface but it was well worth the trouble.  I think it is a lot more flexible and has some great features that Phoenix and other V1 interface viewers lack.  I hated the V2 based interface an stuck with V1 but V3 is an improvement in my opinion.  BTW, you can actually set up Firestorm to resemble the phoenix interface.  It is also a much more efficient viewer and most people with older computers actually see a performance increase.  Give it a real try for a few days.

Hey Amethyst :)  I did add the caveat that  "There are older residents who do like v2/v3..."  When I finally do get my new PC I will definitely head for Firestorm with the Phoenix skin.  I am unable to use any of the v3 based viewers on my current PC due to it not having SEE2 capability.

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TristanMercer wrote:


Linda Brynner wrote:

Actually, i would not concentrate on Phoenix anymore. It's too heavy, lacks latest tech and certainly lacks the modern rendering 'machine'. It's not flexible in terms to transfer it into an LL variant. Firestorm (a modern variant of Phoenix based on LL-2-3-code) does actually try to, however it's heavy as well and therefore very laggy. And it's always behind on LL.


 

And another, EVERY SINGLE TPV is behind LL these days since the shared user experience was put into place. TPV's can no longer just create addons. They need to be submitted for LL approval first. They cannot add it into their viewers until it is in the Official LL viewer.


The "shared user experience" hasn't exactly been as stated as far back as when Windlight was introduced.  Some users had PCs who could not turn up the settings and still move.  Now mesh has changed the "shared experience" - I saw an estimate on the Merchant's Forums, iirc, that 30% of users cannot upgrade to new PCs to use the new viewers due to a variety of reasons, some personal, some economic, etc.  My seeing mesh as people missing half their bodies and wearing boxes on their heads isn't "shared." 

And don't bother saying - upgrade your PC - it's in the works.

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:


If you can't get used to a new UI after a few days, you might not have the brainpower for the modern world... (not the same as liking - just able to use it normally).


I certainly hope you aren't classifying me as not having the brainpower for the modern world - I assure you I that is not the case.  (Even if not directed at me, I do find that comment a bit insulting.)

Some of us prefer to have *choices* and for various reasons prefer one thing over another, even if it's not the latest and greatest.  From what I've read of your posts, I think we can agree on choice, eh?

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Orca Flotta wrote:

I was a fangirl Nicholaz in 2007, since a good friend introduced me to it. Remember the days whne you couldn't istall it but all you got was some files you had to replace in your LL/SL viewer?

 

YES!!!  I'd forgotten that!!!


Orca Flotta wrote:

 

Always when I needed to get stuff done I was on Phoenix and stayed with Phoenix. Proud and lonesome.
 

You might have been lonesome but not alone - I was and am still on Phoenix (with more features being broken daily).

 

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Read the part in parenthesis that you quoted.

 

Read and point taken.  So I would be in the group that *likes* a particular viewer not one that *can't understand  it*.  Thank you. ;)

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Both Cerise and Darren gave good advice.

The Dolphin viewer has more features than the SL Viewer. The interface is very much the SL Viewer interface. In some areas the viewer lags behind the SL Viewer and in others it is ahead.

Exodusis unique. THe interface is close enough to the SL Viewer it is an easy change over. As you drill into the menu you find the additional features. It is generally released as a beta version. That allows it some freedom not possible in main release viewers. It has special features for photographers, machinimists, and gamers.

Niran's is an intersting viewer. I think it is an experiement in user interfaces. It changes so much with each version it is a continual learning process... at least it was when I was using it and following the updates. It got to be too much work to learn to use.

Firestorm is the most popular viewer. It has several pre-make user interfaces, SL, Phoenix, Firestorm, and a hybrid. All of them can be customized. It is a feature rich viewer. It tends to lag behind other third party viewers as the FS team prefers to get everything working as perfectly as possible before release. They also release less often than most other third party viewers for the same reason.

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