need some help with laptop ideas for Wife, help with suggestions

[Spike Hydraconis]

Ok i posted a bit ago about my wifes crappy laptop she uses in SL.  she lives in the UK and i want to buy her a laptop and send it over to her.  i cant go real expensive due to my budget.. hoping to stay around 500-700 she doesnt game with it other then secondlife.  any ideas?  I seen an Asus at walmart but not sure, i know there good computers but its not a gaming computer so not sure.  someone please help out..doesnt have to be incredible just has to be good enough she can do secondlife without problems

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I got to toss this disclaimer in every time I speak about laptops and SL in the same sentence........I'm not a laptop person (the design of laptops are just not suited or SL at settings greater than than low in the viever preferences (not at the price range most laptop people want to remain in........if you got a couple to three thousand dollars to spend then you can certainly get one that will fly in SL).

I went to the Wal-Mart website since you mentioned that you saw an Asus there that piqued your interest.  I search all the Asus laptops that were listed at $500 USD and below.  There are several.  But none of them will run SL well (in fact I would say none of them will run SL at all).  They are light weight laptops that actually should be labeled as "tablets" instead of laptops............extremely weak Atom CPU's are not even as powerful as the CPU in most Smart Phones.  Not at all capablle of running SL.  I did expand my search to enclude other manufacturers in that same price range.  I found this computer that should run SL on low settings reasonably well (it might run SL at medium settings with significant hits in the lag area and maybe a few unexpected crashes/connection issues).  I only say that because I know the i3 CPU is a good one and the on CPU graphics HD3000 chipset is strong enough to run SL at low settings ( friend of mine who went to the dard side and switched to a laptop has the i3 with the HD3000 graphics and it works..........poorly, in my opinion, but it does work at low settings).  The laptop's system memory is expandable to to 8 GB..............I would suggest you do that upgrade from the 4 GB it comes with (though the 4 GB will work but I think you will wind up wishing you had gone with the 8 GB instead once your wife gets on SL)

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Gateway-15.6-NV57H103U-Laptop-PC-with-Intel-Core-i3-2310M-Processor-and-Windows-7-Home-Premium-with-Windows-8-Pro-Upgrade-Option/21842876

[Spike Hydraconis]

Hi Peggy!  I believe you are a fellow Forum Cartel member.. ty  for the info, but got thrown a curveball of such, i forgot they use different power source int he UK so I think im gonna have to get her one in the UK.. she needs the laptop because of her school so she has to be portible.  not sure what i should look for exactly for her.. I mean I can go up to about 750US for one.  I just want her to be able to run it ok.  you know?  dont have to be high settings or anything just be able to get around and enjoy SL instead of crashing or nothing rezzing all the time.  the laptop she has is about toast i believe and it was NEVER designed to log onto SL  its crazy bad laptop.. so if anyone has any ideas on one in the UK let me know.. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

The power source only matters with the power adapter and charger.  Once it gets to the laptop the power is provided by the batteries (which is probably 24 volt DC..........and that is the same in the US or Europe).  I believe you can get power adapters easily in the US for European power.  Maybe not at Wal-Mart but certainly at places like Newegg.com or TigerDirect.com. 

If you are okay with $750 USD then you can get a better computer (but the power adapter is going to be extra).  What to be on the watch for is to stick with the more powerfull CPU's for a laptop.  Those CPU's like the Atom (Intel) are "energy efficient" (code for low powered).  To get a laptop that can run SL (even at low settings) requires a decent CPU and graphics accellerator...............and those two components are the biggest power comsumers in a laptop (the power source being the battery pack that means those laptops will have a shorter time between charges when the CPU and GPU are working hard........you can negate that if your wife runs SL with the power adaptor/charger plugged into the local power provider (the electric companies power).  The porblem with the adapter being plugged in it ties you to a electrical outlet (sort of like a desk top).  But for non-SL stuff it's still just as mobil as it always was.

 

Editing..........

Yeah I'm a member of the Forum Cartel.....since a very, very long time ago.  I wish I could get there more often.  But RL sucks sometimes.........you can't ignore it for too long or the sh** hits the fan (and that's messy  ).

[Spike Hydraconis]

Yeah ok.. so any thoughts on a good one at that price range?  my only concern becomes customs.. if i send her one from here even if i get her an adapter then she has to pay on her end and i have to pay a charge at customs as well as the insurance.. so thinking it might just be cheaper to get her one online in the UK.. not sure, new to me so never done it before..lol

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I see what you are saying.........and you are probably right.  But specs are specs.  Windows is Windows.  The country where the computer and/or software makes little or no difference (well licensing might be different but the hardware and software code remain the same no matter where the computer is used).  Try some sites in the UK (I know there are plenty from some of the forum regulars posting here).  My problem would be the currency exchange conversion to see if I'm getting ripped off.  I also don't know any of the more reputable sites.  I see a computer prices at 500 Euros or pounds and I have no idea of how that compares to $500 USD...........it could be a great deal or it could be very expensive.  I'm sure someone from the UK will chime in.  But, as you probably know, it's the wee hours of tomorrow morning there right now

Good luck.

[Spike Hydraconis]

ty Peggy.. I know the conversion.. 500pounds is about 803US dollars... 

[Jean Horten]

Hi.

Stay away from integrated intel graphics. These are made for business and office applications and are actually no graphics cards, but integrated into the main chip. You will not get any good sl experience with these auxilliary chips. Try to get a laptop with a discrete nVidia GPU, series 640 or above, with own physical memory, not with shared memory like the Intel one.

Jeannie

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I would suggest you do that upgrade from the 4 GB it comes with (though the 4 GB will work but I think you will wind up wishing you had gone with the 8 GB instead once your wife gets on SL)

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I always wonder about that, maybe you could shed some light on it.

Second life itself won't use a whole lot more than 1G plus 1G of video memory if the memory is shared. So that leaves you with 2G to run the OS and everything else if you have 4G. If I understand correctly SL can use up to 2G, but I've never seen it that high.

I occasionally have a 2d graphical, 2d CAD, 3d CAD, one or two SL viewers open and 1G in use as RAMdrive. Still that only uses 35-40% of my 16G

From what I understand windows will swap even if not all physical memory is in use, but do you really need 8G to run SL? Isn't it wiser to invest that money in a dedicated GPU?

I'm honestly wondering how this works, just thought I'd add that before yet another conversation spins out of control

[VRprofessor]

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Jean Horten wrote:

Hi.

Stay away from integrated intel graphics. These are made for business and office applications and are actually no graphics cards, but integrated into the main chip. You will not get any good sl experience with these auxilliary chips. Try to get a laptop with a discrete nVidia GPU, series 640 or above, with own physical memory, not with shared memory like the Intel one.

Jeannie

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True enough, and if the OP is willing to either shop a lot or up their budget it is good advice.   It took me about two months to find a great price on a good laptop.  In the US there should be some good prices in about 6-8 weeks when black friday hits. 

Otherwise using low settings on an i3 or i5 based computer will be okay--not great, but okay. 

[Peggy Paperdoll]

My thinking on memory is the same as my thinking on power supplies.  Both those components of a computer are cheap compared to most all other components that make up a computer.  Both are about the easiest components for an amateur to install or replace.  And, for both components, there is no such thing as "too much" (you can't over do it and cause problems).  Not to mention that with a healthy amount of memory availabe and plenty of power available you can do so much more later with upgrades and not have to worry about whether or not you have enough memory or power.  No I don't think you have to install the maximum memory your motherboard will support (but I do anyway......it's just something I do).  And no you do not need a 1000 watt power supply either (PS's make a big jump in price at about the 1000 watt range.....but an 800 watt PS is only a few dollars more than a 500 watt PS).  Those are my generic thoughts of memory and power.

For SL it comes into play more rapidly than other programs with LL's constant introduction of new features that require a higher level of graphic rendering capabilities.  That means, as time goes along, you find your graphics cards are not quite what you need anymore (the most recent feature is mesh..........a lot of those graphics cards just could not handle the viewers required to experience the mesh content.  People had to look at upgrading their graphics cards (or purchasing a new computer) in order to see what all the fuss was all about.  Buying a new computer every time LL puts out something like mesh is a rather expensive way to enjoy SL.  Upgrading the graphics card is much cheaper.  But, often, upgrading the graphics card requires a computer with more power available.  Having a big PS in the computer takes that worry away.

On the memory for SL.  There is a lot of stuff going on when you are logged in.  The graphics are the most noticable since that is what you see on your monitor (and the reason you need a decent graphics adapter).  But there are other things that your computer must deal with constantly.  Positional stuff.......that big build that awes your senses have to properly placed in the scene for you to see it.  Every time you move or change your camera angle that stuff has to positioned properly on your screen.  Someone walks (or flies or TP's) into your field of view, it has to be positioned properly.  Particles, scripts, chat, IM's voice, streaming media..............all have to be dealt with by your computer.  Your system memory is what makes all that stuff happen in "real time"......if you don't have enough then your computer starts using your hard to suppliment and writing the data to your disk then recovering it when it's necessary is very slow compared to RAM.  For SL RAM is just as important as graphics.

Now back to why I said what I did to the OP.  It was clear to me that the OP is purchasing this computer for someone else and price is a concern.  The computer needs to be a laptop (not the least expensive type of computer available.......about 2 times the price of a desktop with comparable specs).  In order to do that it's pretty much out of the question of going with a laptop that has a discrete (dedicated) video card.  That means the graphics will be intergrated.  I suggested the i3 CPU with the HD3000 intergrated chipset because I know, first hand, that an i3 with the HD 3000 chipset will work...........not well but it will work.  Since the intergrated video has not dedicated video RAM it will be getting what is needs for rendering from the system RAM.  4 GB is probably okay (Windows 7 needs about a half GB but Windows reserves about 1 GB so you have to say Win 7 uses a gig.......even if it really only uses half that).  Second Life wants close to a gig (it will work with less but with a performance hit).  Everyone has background programs running (some are necessary, some are for convenience).  It's not out of the question to have memory reserved for those background programs to be near or more than another gig.  That's 3 GB to run SL without considering the video RAM  your graphics adapter is going to need just to render the scene for you.  That's putting you close to what you have installed in a 4 GB system.  Yes, you can do it (and probably have issues that can be avoided with more RAM...........such as unexpected log outs or viewer crashes.  Getting another 4 GB of RAM is a pretty cheap and effective way to avoid some of those potential problems.

Did I shed any light on it for you? 

(I always wonder about that, maybe you could shed some light on it.)

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

 

Did I shed any light on it for you? 

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Thanks for the lengthy answer, but unfortunately, no

I probably wasn't clear. What I was wondering about was how windows (or any other OS) swaps to the HD when there is still RAM available. Does having more RAM make any difference in this process, does it affect performace of your open programs at all? Does the OS only swap when it thinks you are going to run out of RAM or does it do it always with programs running in the background?

I'd like to add that even though 4GB of RAM doesn't cost a fortune, 50 bucks is still 10% of the price of the budget in question. That's a lot if it will make no difference. You can always put in some more RAM later on afterall, you can in a desktop at least, I guess the same is the case for a laptop.

I'd rather spend an extra 100 or so bucks on a laptop with a dedicated graphics card which will both speed up the graphics and free up about 1GB of RAM than spending half that on something that doesn't make a difference.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I'd rather spend an extra 100 or so bucks on a laptop with a dedicated graphics card which will both speed up the graphics and free up about 1GB of RAM than spending half that on something that doesn't make a difference.

--------------------------------------------

I was just speaking about a laptop in the $500 to (possibly) $700 USD range.  For a laptop that's a pretty low end machine.  A laptop in that price range will almost certainly not have a discrete graphics card in (nor will it have the capability of adding one later......not only does the laptops mainboard have to have some slot for a graphics card but it also has to have a battery pack and cooling system to handle that upgrade.  And, because of the space available in a laptop's case and the additional power comsumption requirements, after market video cards are built specifically for the laptop they are installed in...........that makes those cards pretty expensive (compared to desktop hardware).  When you find a laptop that is capable of all that and remain in the $500 to $700 USD price range let me know..........I don't think you're going to find one (and absolutely not for that $100 more in a video card with that 1 GB of system RAM savings you mentioned.  You would have to do some serious shopping for a recent card like that for a desktop).

We're talking about a laptop that is to be used in SL but the OP is not expecting (and, as far as I can tell, not really interested in running SL at settings much above low).  I mentioned system memory only because I was thinking about a price lower than the upper $700 range and memory is just about as cheap as you can get for an upgrade in a laptop.  It will help, especially when you're on the low edge of being able to run SL decently.

Windows allocates memory for itself.  Meaning it reserves that memory for it's use regardless of whether or not it uses all that's allocated.  Windows 7 consistantly uses right at 500 MB on my machine.........but the memory reserved is over 1 GB (but I have 16 installed so it's not an issue for me).  Back before I added memory I was at 8 GB and Windows 7 used the same 500 MB but it only reserved about a GB (not the nearly 1.5 GB it reserves now with the added memory).  I don't know what the OS uses for determining how much memory to reserve............but I do know it's quite a bit more than it actually uses.  Windows also does the same for all programs (if you have your settings set to allow Windows to automatically set the memory for your programs......which most people do.  You really have to know your stuff to manually set memory allocation.  And I'm not to that level so I leave it up to Windows).  If the memory is allocated (or reserved) then Windows will not allow another program use that allocated memory even if it's not being used.  That's why more RAM is allows helpful.  Do you absolutely need it?  In most cases, no you don't.  But if do wind up needing that memory, Windows will use the virtual RAM (paging file on the hard drive) as a substitute.  When your graphics rendering requires graphics RAM it gets if from Windows...........whatever is left over after all that reserved memory for all the programs that are running (including Windows and all it's processes).  SL, on many occassions, wants a lot of memory for graphics rendering..........and if the graphics adapter does not have it's own onboard VRAM it gets it from Windows.  But only as much as Windows can allocate from what's left over.  Then it goes to the page file to make up the difference......and that's often too slow for most people in SL.

I know of no onboard or on CPU chip intergrated graphics accellerators that have dedicated VRAM.............they all get it from the system RAM.  That was my point in suggesting the OP get as much RAM as possible.  It's easier to get it upfront when you purchase the computer than to add it later because you must match the upgraded RAM to the existing RAM and more often than not you don't know what RAM to buy..........unless you physically remove the memory modules and take them with you when you go to purchase more RAM (that can be a pain in the butt).  And, one more thing..........the manufacturer of the RAM is often important too (and I've found it hard to find the same manufacturer as the existing modules........which is why I always toss the old modules and buy a complete set when I upgrade my RAM.  It costs more when you do that I because of that I try to just load the machine up at the time I purchase the computer.  I didn't do that with this machine and it cost me almost $200 to get 8 more gigs of RAM where I would have saved at least $100 if I had done it when I purchased the computer.  Live and learn).

 

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

I was just speaking about a laptop in the $500 to (possibly) $700 USD range.  For a laptop that's a pretty low end machine.  A laptop in that price range will almost certainly

not

have a discrete graphics card in

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With 5 minutes of browsing I found a Dell inspiron 14z for 649 euros (on sale from 749). It has an i5 and a 1G AMD Radeon HD 7570M. Not the fastest card, but a lot better than the Intel onboard. Unfortunately it is not on the US site, I found it on the Dutch one. Prices here in euros seem to match US dollarsr pretty much when it comes to computers. What I mean to say is with some searching you can definitely find such a laptop within the budget. It might take some time to find it (longer than my 5 minute lucky shot), but it's worth the efford.

EDIT I thought the task manager showed memory use including allocated, unused memory.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

649 Euros is 1 Euro less than 650.  650 Euros is equal to just over 849 USD.  I believe I stated pretty clearly that I was talking about US Dollars.  You missed the upper limit on the budget of $700 USD by almost $150.

Maybe you should Google Euros to dollar conversion like I just did when you find those good deals like that.

http://fx-rate.net/EUR/USD/

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

I said that normally euros convert to dollars 1 on 1 when it comes to computers.

That's why I suggested a search, not this particular computer. They seem to be out there.

Here one in the US, 9 dollars over budget (and a slightly slower GPU than the Dell has):

Newegg SONY VAIO

And within budget (with a gpu comparable to the Dell I think):

Newegg lenovo

Slightly faster GPU:

Newegg Toshiba

Plenty of computers with a dedicated GPU within budget.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Why are we arguing?  I stated what I thought might work for the OP.  I made a very logical (and correct) suggestion about getting as much system memory as the motherboard would support and go with the i5 CPU and HD 3000 graphics chipset.  I know that combination will work. It won't work very well at anything over low settings (probably it will give acceptable performance at medium settings but lag is going to be an issue).  I was asked why I said more memory and I answered as clearly as I could.  That's it.  I'm not trying to taut anything..............the OP wants a laptop for his wife in the UK (I think).  He does not want to spend more than $700 USD (but because he said $500 first and said he might go as high as $700 I searched for laptops in the $500 range to get him started).  I know for the same performance and comparable hardware in a laptop vs a desktop you are looking at roughly twice the price.  You can't get a desktop that will run SL worth a flip at less than about $400 USD (yeah, some serious searching you might find one lower but it's going to be a real stripped down desktop).  That means in order to get a laptop comparable to a $400 desktop you are going to spend about $800 minimum. 

I try to keep it simple.  I'm done arguing with this derail.  I answered the OP as best I could.  He seemed to understand and thanked me.  I told him good luck.  So I'm done with this thread..........all that's happening now is some people trying to discredit what I said.  You and the other poster have both failed on that point.  Argue among yourselves if you want...........I'm done.

[Kwakkelde Kwak]

I'm not arguing at all let alone tring to discredit you.

I simply said getting a dedicated GPU makes more sense to me and computers with them can be found within budget.