Caught in the Middle

[nuria Augapfel]

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Emuna Zamani wrote:

I deleted my post because I felt like he did not deserve any words from me.  He is stuck on "Poor Xavier" and

he is not seeing the problems that he has caused.

If Xavier would have contacted me in a respectful and professional manner, that would have been different.  I would have appreciated him letting me know that I had purchased stolen animations and I would have tried to do what I could, IF anything to put the person that stole them out of business.  What Xavier did was contact me with threats and informed me that I was now on several lists . . . he had become "Big Brother" and he was watching.  He had no proof that the items were stolen, there was no list of the items to provide to me and he had no proof that I purchased them (

I did

). 

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Hello Emuna, while i understand that you are also a victim i have read that Xavier said that he never accused you of doing anything wrong....you've admitted that you have bought stolen intellectual property, myself as a merchant i would keep an eye to someone that have stolen products to be sure that are not put on sale...I think that's understandable.

To contact someone who own stolen items to warn that if the stuff is put on sale would be object of DMCA can be taken as a threat even if is not the intention. You were on the vip group of the shop of the thief, so even if Xavier had no proof i think that there was enough reasons as to suspect that you may have some of the stolen items...(which you have admitted to have). But reading Xavier's post seems that he also understand that you are a victim...

I would like to know what are the problems that he has caused you...i mean that if you are not reselling any items from the thief you have no reason to be worried. Seems to me like the real issue are the manners as you were contacted by Xavier, and that's a whole different thing.....that is something that is between you and him so I can not comment. But even if Xavier were rude or a bit harsh to you in the e-mail, i think that you should be more worried about reporting  the thief who has cheated you...

BTW, poor Xavier you lost 3 customers...I hope that this night you manage to sleep...LOL, how childish...

[Innula Zenovka]

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

Hello Emuna, while i understand that you are also a victim i have read that Xavier said that he never accused you of doing anything wrong....you've admitted that you have bought stolen intellectual property,

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's that case.   She's bought, in good faith, L$10k of animations, but we have no idea what they are.  

Xavier is worried that they may include items which he says -- though he has apparently yet to persuade LL that this is the case -- were stolen from him, but he has no more idea than do you or I what Emuna bought, so, unless he says every item in the shop is stolen from him (which I don't think he says),  he has more idea than do I if what she bought was stolen or not.

 

[Emuna Zamani]

If you do not see the issue with challenging someone's integrity, there is no need for me to go any further explaining why I am angry, to you.

I did nothing to land on some list where I am being watched by some people who appointed themselves as the Second Life Police.  To have someone that I have purchased animations from ask me what my connection is to the person that Xavier says sold stolen animations shows that my name is being drug through the mud for no reason.

I may not be able to purchase full perm items due to this.  Get it now??

[Emuna Zamani]

Thank you to everyone that has been supportive.  I received some very helpful advice here and via private messages.  I will not contribute to this thread any longer being that I feel I can not contribute further without doing so in anger.

If any of you know anyone that sells full perm adult animaitons, please send me a message in world.  I am going to try my hand at created my own but that may take a loooong time to master.

Take Care.

[nuria Augapfel]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

Hello Emuna, while i understand that you are also a victim i have read that Xavier said that he never accused you of doing anything wrong....you've admitted that you have bought stolen intellectual property,

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's that case.   She's bought, in good faith, L$10k of animations, but we have no idea what they are.  

Xavier is worried that they may include items which he says -- though he has apparently yet to persuade LL that this is the case -- were stolen from him, but he has no more idea than do you or I what Emuna bought, so, unless he says every item in the shop is stolen from him (which I don't think he says),  he has more idea than do I if what she bought was stolen or not. The animations bought by Emuna are the ones stolen from Xavier? 

 

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Innula, i think that with a bit of experience and reading the statements from Xavier is easy to figure out that ALL the animations coming from that avatar were stolen from several animators...Javier has offered openly to prove that  their animations were stolen and named other well established animators affected by the same thief. Are the animations that Emuna bought the ones stolen from Xavier? maybe, it's possible and for this reason Xavier sent the email warning about the issue. What is clear is that these animations (coming or not from Xavier) are stolen....there are more than one (established) designer affected  and the store of the thieft is gone. DMCA's has been processed. 

We all know that Persuade LL most of the times requires much time and patience, this kind of issues are handled slowly.

 

[Perrie Juran]

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

I would prefer to be warned that I have received stolen items so that I do not pass them on to future customers, and I also would not care if I ended up on a list where other Merchants were keeping an eye on me, because I want to do everything in my power to stay legitimate. Extra eyes can assist in that, and these merchant protection groups do a lot more good than they ever do harm. Stay legitimate and you have nothing to worry about.

And, how many times do I have to say that I found her avatar name on a watch list, I did not put it there.

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What you are failing to see here Xavier is that by assuming an adversarial tone in your communication is that rather than gaining am Ally you have made an Enemy.  You have weakened your position rather than strengthening it.  You have created a hostile relationship rather than one that could have been of mutual benefit.

As a helper here, what really irks me and worries me is did you send your little note to everyone in that VIP group and on this watch list?  How many people in that group are actually, like Emuna here, innocent victims.  Because that is what someone who receives stolen goods without knowledge of what they are is, they like you are a victim also.

As helpers here we from time to time have to deal with panicked new users who get IP replacement notices from LL who think they are about to get banned from SL.  I can't imagine how one of the new folks I am helping would respond if they received your note.  What a great "Welcome to Second Life" that would be.

What you have done is all but become the very thing you are speaking out against.  You have all but become a griefer yourself.  That is what you are failing to see here.  It is the wrong way to go about winning the battle against property theft in Second Life.

[nuria Augapfel]

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Emuna Zamani wrote:

If you do not see the issue with challenging someone's integrity, there is no need for me to go any further explaining why I am angry, to you.

I did nothing to land on some list where I am being watched by some people who appointed themselves as the Second Life Police.  To have someone that I have purchased animations from ask me what my connection is to the person that Xavier says sold stolen animations shows that my name is being drug through the mud for no reason.

I may not be able to purchase full perm items due to this.  Get it now??

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Emuna calm down. You are giving more importance than it has and exaggerating a bit....it's simpler than that: You bought stolen animations from other people, now this people wanted to be aware about if their stolen animations are put on sale or not ( knowingly or unknowingly). Why the hell you may not be able to purchase full perms due this? please do not fall in drama...

   

[nuria Augapfel]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

 

As a helper here, what really irks me and worries me is did you send your little note to everyone in that VIP group and on this watch list?  How many people in that group are actually, like Emuna here, innocent victims.  Because that is what someone who receives stolen goods without knowledge of what they are is, they like you are a victim also.

 

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What the hell is wrong about sending a warn to all the group members of that group (who were evidently customers) to warn them that they bought stolen animations from a thief and to warn them that the original creators will keep an eye on them to be sure that the stolen stuff is not being resold? The problem is simple, they are innocent victims and as far as i know nobody said otherwise. But Xavier and the other animators affected CANNOT know about the honesty of each of the members of that group and if they keep selling the stuff even knowing that it's stolen. if you are an honest person i don't understand why this has to be an offense

I would love to see the reactions if we were talking about our own stuff....

[Innula Zenovka]

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

Hello Emuna, while i understand that you are also a victim i have read that Xavier said that he never accused you of doing anything wrong....you've admitted that you have bought stolen intellectual property,

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think that's that case.   She's bought, in good faith, L$10k of animations, but we have no idea what they are.  

Xavier is worried that they may include items which he says -- though he has apparently yet to persuade LL that this is the case -- were stolen from him, but he has no more idea than do you or I what Emuna bought, so, unless he says every item in the shop is stolen from him (which I don't think he says),  he has more idea than do I if what she bought was stolen or not. The animations bought by Emuna are the ones stolen from Xavier? 

 

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Innula, i think that with a bit of experience and reading the statements from Xavier is easy to figure out that ALL the animations coming from that avatar were stolen from several animators...Javier has offered openly to prove that  their animations were stolen and named other well established animators affected by the same thief. Are the animations that Emuna bought the ones stolen from Xavier? maybe, it's possible and for this reason Xavier sent the email warning about the issue. What is clear is that these animations (coming or not from Xavier) are stolen....there are more than one (established) designer affected  and the store of the thieft is gone. DMCA's has been processed. 

We all know that

Persuade

LL most of the times requires much time and patience, this kind of issues are handled slowly.

 

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I know what Xavier says.  I don't know that I necessarily trust his judgment in this matter.    While I am sure he's an honest witness, I'm not sure he's necessarily a reliable one.

All, to my mind, that needed saying was, "if you've bought any of the following animations,  you should be aware that they're the subject of a DMCA takedown request I've submitted to LL, so it would be risky to use them in any of your builds, pending the outcome, since LL is likely to remove them shortly".    Any reasonable person, and Emuna certainly seems very reasonable to me, would get the message, and it's considerably less offensive than "you're being watched because we don't trust you".  

I'm not unfamiliar with this sort of situation, from both sides, since my business partner is an animator and I script for a lot of builders who use animations in their furniture, so I know how animators normally handle circumstances when they know -- rather than merely suspect -- that people are using animations they shouldn't that they have apparently bought in good faith,  and all I can say is that I'm astonished at how badly Xavier has handled it.

In my experience, most people in SL are pretty honest and keen to help creators who find their content ripped, but most people also get understandably upset, and considerably less cooperative, when they feel they're being falsely accused.

[Darrius Gothly]

Joseph McCarthy

Slippery Slope

Nuff said.

[Pamela Galli]

Xavier told her what could happen if she sold the animations in her products. He told her the VIP list (the "watch list" he allegedly "put her one") would be monitored to make sure they did not sell property they did not have the right to sell. And he told her what would happen if she did decide to sell. Is that the gist? 

Nobody likes to hear this after paying L10,000. I don't know how sweetly Xavier put it -- probably he could have sugar coated it better -- but the facts are unpleasant.  If we read the notecard we could no doubt find fault with it and tell him how to word it more diplomatically, but without seeing it, it is hard to estimate how egregious his crime was.  Sounds like an element of "shoot the messenger" may have been involved, but who knows?

But there was nothing wrong in what he actually did, that I can see. If will be checking him out to see if he sells full perm :-)

[Darrius Gothly]

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

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ImaTest wrote:

<snip> ...I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. <snip>

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I agree completely, Ima, and I've added his name to my own list of "Don't Buy From These People" merchants.  I'd be willing to bed that Emuna won't either.  So now there's 3 customers he's lost.  Too bad, Xavier.

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Four.

[Pamela Galli]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

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In my experience, most people in SL are pretty honest and keen to help creators who find their content ripped, but most people also get understandably upset, and considerably less cooperative, when they feel they're being falsely accused.

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I agree, but I am not seeing what he falsely accused her of.

[Marcus Hancroft]

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

<snip> BTW, poor Xavier you lost 3 customers...I hope that this night you manage to sleep...LOL, 

how childish...

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Nuria, you may think the loss of three customers is trivial, but, since most people who have had bad experiences with retailers (merchants) tells many more people (their friends) of their bad experience, those three people turn out to be many more than that.  Not to mention that Xavier has broadcasted for all the world to see (in this thread), his bad judgement and treatment of a person who might have purchased animations which were stolen.  I have seen no list presented of the ones Emuna purchased that were stolen.  

If it were me...I would be extremely upset with myself for losing 3 customers who were then going to tell who knows how many more not to purchase from me.  It's never just the one person...it's the one person and anybody else who will listen (or read) about it.

[Marcus Hancroft]

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

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ImaTest wrote:

<snip> ...I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. <snip>

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I agree completely, Ima, and I've added his name to my own list of "Don't Buy From These People" merchants.  I'd be willing to bed that Emuna won't either.  So now there's 3 customers he's lost.  Too bad, Xavier.

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Four.

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And now there's four.  PLUS...

[Pamela Galli]

That may be so Marcus, but word of mouth works in all directions -- if he has a good product at a fair price and good customer service,  he will really not be affected by a few disgruntled people. There will be many more who can vouch for his product and service than there are a few people in a forum who don't like his tone of voice (without actually reading the notecard in question). I have had many people in forums tell me that because they disagreed with what I said (for example in a thread like this) they would never buy from me! and would tell all their friends not to!, and I am more than happy with the trajectory my business has taken. 

I have a suspicion that the saying "There is no such thing as bad publicity" is right.

[nuria Augapfel]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

"you're being watched because we don't trust you".  

In my experience, most people in SL are pretty honest and keen to help creators who find their content ripped, but most people also get understandably upset, and considerably less cooperative, when they feel they're being falsely accused.

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In my experience, there are many people who even knowing that something is stolen they keep selling it because "they paid for it" and DMCA ends up being the only solution to the problem . In my experience those who really understand and respect the work of others do not care so much about the "manners" on how they have been contacted but care more about do not sell stolen stuff. No one has been in this thread falsely accused, I have not seen any offense in the statements of Javier...i guess everyone does their own interpretations.

[Marcus Hancroft]

Perhaps, Miss Pamela, but why would a merchant want to show, even in a thread on a forum such as this (comprised of other merchants who are potential customers) that he or she is a royal PITA to deal with and is disrespectful to potential customers?

In MY book, the loss of even ONE customer is unacceptable.  ESPECIALLY since the loss is based, not on the quality of my products, but how I treat those who buy from me (or who potentially will).  

I worked in retail for over 15 years.  As a manager, I hated telling a customer "No." or that I couldn't do anything for them.  Invariably, they would call the corporate office and complain about me and I would get a call from my District Manager ordering me to take care of that customer because they didn't want to lose the customer and the sale.  So, I learned early on to just do what the customer wanted to start with.  But I was NEVER rude, accusatory, condescending or hateful to any of them and we kept them as a customer.

So in my opinion, I wouldn't want to lose ANY customer (past or future) because of how I dealt with someone in a thread on a forum.  Even IF my business was doing just fine without them.  Imagine how it would be doing WITH them!

 

[Perrie Juran]

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

 

As a helper here, what really irks me and worries me is did you send your little note to everyone in that VIP group and on this watch list?  How many people in that group are actually, like Emuna here, innocent victims.  Because that is what someone who receives stolen goods without knowledge of what they are is, they like you are a victim also.

 

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What the hell is wrong about sending a warn to all the group members of that group (who were evidently customers) to warn them that they bought stolen animations from a thief and to warn them that the original creators will keep an eye on them to be sure that the stolen stuff is not being resold? The problem is simple,

they are innocent victims and as far as i know nobody said otherwise

. But Xavier and the other animators affected CANNOT know about the honesty of each of the members of that group and if they keep selling the stuff even knowing that it's stolen. if you are an honest person i don't understand why this has to be an offense

I would love to see the reactions if we were talking about our own stuff....

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I never said it was wrong to warn.  Granted, I have not seen the note Xavier sent, but based on his posts here I don't doubt that it was adversarial.  That is what I said was wrong.

But now maybe you get an idea of how it feels to wear the shoe that he has brought for Emuna to try on. 

A couple of months ago a person I was mentoring was given a folder of stolen hair.  After I graciously explained the problem they deleted the items and I informed the designer of the details (who gave them to her, etc).

Contrast that with another new friend who went dancing and suddenly got a random IM, "that item you are wearing is stolen...I'm Abuse reporting you for copybotting."

You tell me which is the better approach?

p.s., the real kicker is that I had personally gifted the suspect item in the second situation and had purchased it from a well known and established Merchant on the Marketplace.

But to reiterate, I NEVER SAID IT WAS WRONG TO WARN.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

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ImaTest wrote:

<snip> ...I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. <snip>

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I agree completely, Ima, and I've added his name to my own list of "Don't Buy From These People" merchants.  I'd be willing to bed that Emuna won't either.  So now there's 3 customers he's lost.  Too bad, Xavier.

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Make that 4.

ETA: Darrius beat me!  Ok, I think I'm now 5.

 

 

[Marcus Hancroft]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

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ImaTest wrote:

<snip> ...I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. <snip>

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I agree completely, Ima, and I've added his name to my own list of "Don't Buy From These People" merchants.  I'd be willing to bed that Emuna won't either.  So now there's 3 customers he's lost.  Too bad, Xavier.

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Make that 4.

 

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And now there's 5. 

[nuria Augapfel]

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

Perhaps, Miss Pamela, but why would a merchant want to show, even in a thread on a forum such as this (comprised of other merchants who are potential customers) that he or she is a royal PITA to deal with and is disrespectful to potential customers?

In MY book, the loss of even ONE customer is unacceptable.  ESPECIALLY since the loss is based, not on the quality of my products, but how I treat those who buy from me (or who potentially will).  

 

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All what you said would have some sense if Xavier would had been disrespectful, rude, accusatory..blah blah (wich has not been, at least in this forum). Personally i think that is extremely childish and stupid the typical sentence "I will not buy your products again"  or "you lost a customer"  because i do not share the same opinion than yours (it is common at the forums)

Xavier, i didn't knew about your store but if i like your products and customer service you can be sure that you get a new customer

BTW, Marcus you should be careful because this kind of behavior can work in both ways....now i feel a bit childish heheh, i'm really sorry to say  that you can add now to your book the "unacceptable" loss of a customer ^^ (though i wouldn't  buy none of your products anyway)    

Childish, right??

[Czari Zenovka]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

 

All, to my mind, that needed saying was, "if you've bought any of the following animations,  you should be aware that they're the subject of a DMCA takedown request I've submitted to LL, so it would be risky to use them in any of your builds, pending the outcome, since LL is likely to remove them shortly".   

<snip> 

I'm not unfamiliar with this sort of situation, from both sides, since my business partner is an animator and I script for a lot of builders who use animations in their furniture, so I know how animators normally handle circumstances when they know -- rather than merely suspect -- that people are using animations they shouldn't that they have apparently bought in good faith,  and all I can say is that I'm astonished at how badly Xavier has handled it.

In my experience, most people in SL are pretty honest and keen to help creators who find their content ripped, but most people also get understandably upset, and considerably less cooperative, when they feel they're being falsely accused.

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I have a very small business compared to some and years ago it was even smaller.  One of the first items I put out for sale was a Celtic trunk with an opening lid, when this was still somewhat unique.  I had learned how to build the trunk in a class hosted by a well-respected SL school.  An item was provided by the instructor for this build with the caveat that it was full perm and permissible to use in our own builds to sell.  (I have since learned that sometimes well-meaning instructors offer full perm items to students that, unbeknownst to them, have been stolen somewhere down the line but have become so prevelant that they join the ranks of full perms and to trace the items back to the original creator can be a nightmare. I've tried to do that with some scripts.  But I didn't know all that back then in my budding building days.)

The full perm piece was the "hinge" that allowed the trunk lid to open and shut. Now this can be done with a single lean script.  So I textured the trunk to give it the Celtic look and set it out for sale for some whopping amount like 25L in my first teeny store. (Knowing how to price items is still a major learning process for me.)

Maybe a week later I received a notecard from a woman I'd never met.  The note was friendly, kind, and courteous; it stated that she was interested in my Celtic trunk but, upon inspecting it, found that one part of it was created by someone else and wanted to make sure I was not illegally using another's work before she purchased it.  Even though the note was friendly, being relatively new to SL and brand new to building/marketing, I was unsettled to say the least.  I responded immediately to her with the info above, that I learned this build in a class and the piece in question was provided within the class as ok to use in builds, but that I would contact the creator of the piece and update her when I received an answer.

I pulled the trunk off the floor and sent a note explaining all the above to the person listed as the creator and asked if I had permission to use this item and, if so, could I please get that in writing.  The creator replied immediately, said he had put the kit together for builders and also provided it to that school for use in their classes. (The kit was a prim, a script, and how to use them in builds.)  He said I was most welcome to use it in builds to sell, etc. and to consider his response as the legal permission.

I forwarded this info to the person who had questioned my build.  She thanked me for being so quick to respond to her intial query and for being so thorough in my investigation. She said many merchants never responded to her and she was aware of content theft being fairly common (or words to that effect).  I'm not in world to check the notecard exchange but, iirc, she mentioned that she was vigilant to check all parts of a build prior to purchase and I *think* she mentioned being part of a group...but again...this was back in early 2008 so I will need to refer to my notes when I go in world.  My main point with this is the way she contacted me - non-threatening, pleasant, but with a bonafide concerne with a product I was selling.

I ran into her later that year at class on Gimp.  During our introductions on the first day, this woman added after introducing herself that she had past interaction with me and my shop and knew me to be an honest merchant.  That was totally unsolicited on my part and suprised me that she mentioned it, pleasantly so.

An interesting "footnote" to this experience was when I heard about the free scripting library and headed there to see if I could use any of the scripts.  Lo and behold, one called something like "barn door" was the IDENTICAL kit I received in class for the trunk, BUT with an entirely different creator name than the person I contacted for permission.  So it's a mystery - who created it?

 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

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Marcus Hancroft wrote:

Perhaps, Miss Pamela, but why would a merchant want to show, even in a thread on a forum such as this (comprised of other merchants who are potential customers) that he or she is a royal PITA to deal with and is disrespectful to potential customers?

In MY book, the loss of even ONE customer is unacceptable.  ESPECIALLY since the loss is based, not on the quality of my products, but how I treat those who buy from me (or who potentially will).  

 

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All what you said would have some sense if Xavier would had been disrespectful, rude, accusatory..blah blah (wich has not been, at least in this forum).

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Then you and I are reading completely different posts.  It has already been shown by several people who can express it better than I where the disrespectful, rude, accusatory tone was taken. Xavier then responds to those posts in what I consider a belligerent manner, thereby escalating the issue and confirming to some of us that he is a bit of a loose cannon.  My opinon only of course.

 

[nuria Augapfel]

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

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Then you and I are reading completely different posts.  It has already been shown by several people who can express it better than I where the disrespectful, rude, accusatory tone was taken. Xavier then responds to those posts in what I consider a belligerent manner, thereby escalating the issue and confirming to some of us that he is a bit of a loose cannon.  My opinon only of course.

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Please quote for me the post where Xavier has been disrespectful, rude, and above all accusatory (as we are reading different posts). Thanks