Caught in the Middle

[Xavier Pomegranate]

Please explain to me how notifying someone that they have purchased stolen goods from a thief and as a result of being associated with that thief the person has come under some degree of scrutiny, by the people who the thief had originally stolen from, to ensure that they are not selling/reselling or trading in any other stolen items constitutes a threat. Unless, of course they actually plan on reselling those stolen items. Like it or not, the original poster has stolen intellectual property in her posession. She needs to be informed of that fact so she can decide how she should proceed. Its not my fault the original poster's name is on a list containing names of people who MAY, knowingly or unknowingly, be trafficing in stolen intellectual property. Blame the thief.

 Maybe I could have chosen my words better, but keep in mind...i had just learned that I was robbed. And it was not a small theft, it was major.

[Innula Zenovka]

Are you saying that the entire contents of this guy's shop have been stolen from you?

[Darrius Gothly]

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

Please explain to me how notifying someone that they have purchased stolen goods from a thief and as a result of being associated with that thief the person has come under some degree of scrutiny, by the people who the thief had originally stolen from, to ensure that they are not selling/reselling or trading in any other stolen items constitutes a threat. Unless, of course they actually plan on reselling those stolen items. Like it or not, the original poster has stolen intellectual property in her posession. She needs to be informed of that fact so she can decide how she should proceed. Its not my fault the original poster's name is on a list containing names of people who MAY, knowingly or unknowingly, be trafficing in stolen intellectual property. Blame the thief.

 Maybe I could have chosen my words better, but keep in mind...i had just learned that I was robbed. And it was not a small theft, it was major.

---

Gladly. Putting someone "Under Scrutiny" is the same as saying "I believe you have caused me monetary harm by selling my products illegally." That action was taken BEFORE you had contacted the OP and further presumes illegal action on the OP's part.

You do not "Scrutinize" people that are victims, you only scrutinze crooks. So the act of placing the OP on a "Watch List" indicates you believe she is or has already engaged in illegal acts. Again, this is BEFORE you even determined which animations were purchased, BEFORE she had any idea the seller had previous problems with another Animator, and BEFORE you gave her the opportunity to choose an action.

If you do not consider being "Scrutinized" as the same as being accused, then ask yourself how you would feel if your co-workers began watching you VERY closely every time you went near their desks or personal property. If they are watching you, it is because they believe you did something wrong. If they didn't believe that, they wouldn't care in the least when you get near their stuff.

I'm quite honestly at a loss how you cannot see that. But even if you don't mind it when folks stare at you with a suspicious eye, the OP quite clearly DOES take it badly. And compounding that is the fact that you didn't even give her a chance to decide what to do. She just suddenly discovered she was being "Watched" as if she was some sort of criminal. That apparently caused her quite a bit of emotional distress. FOR NO REASON whatsoever, other than your own arrogant presumption that she MIGHT do something you consider bad.

But something you also need to consider. Let's assume she bought ONE animation from someone, and that ONE animation turned out to be stolen from you. Her money thus went to the "wrong" person, not you. Thus you have lost ONE sale. ONE! Not a whole slew of sales .. one and only one sale.

Now further assume she sold 10,000 couches with the animation in it. You still would have gotten only ONE sale, not 10,000. However she now has 10,000 VERY pissed off customers that suddenly find out their couches no longer work. She is going to suffer untold damage to her business and her reputation as those customers demand refunds, tell all their friends that the stuff they bought from her is broken. And to make it even worse, based on how she spoke in her initial post, I'd bet her personal emotional turmoil over the outrage from her customers would give her sleepless nights and might very well drive her completely out of Second Life altogether.

So let's sum this up, shall we?

You lost ONE sale. She lost a bunch of customers, her reputation, her peace of mind .. and very possibly her enjoyment of Second Life and the pleasure she had from building and selling.

From where I sit, you're off light. You lost almost nothing .. one stinking sale. She lost potentially everything.

And you claim you have some right to be indignant?? Pffffttt!! Yeah, I stand by what I said initially. You disgust me.

Nuff said.

[Xavier Pomegranate]

I didnt lose just one sale,... I think you may be to ignorant to realize it. But, I dont really care what you think, or what the original poster thinks. If I catch anybody in possession of my stolen items or reselling my stolen items you can be damn sure that I will notify them about it and notify EVERYONE that would find this information pertinent.

If the original poster is reselling any of my stolen property, rest assured she will have a DCMA filed against her. That is not a threat, thats a promise. And if she is selling anybody elses stolen property I will inform them as well.

Go ahead and test me. When you have a Second Life business that brings in large sums of real money maybe you will be as protective and assertive as I am. Until then, I will continue to try and protect my intellectual property, and the intellectual property of others, from theives and unauthorized uses.

You just seem to want to elevate this to a whole new level of stupidity.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

Which of your animations do you say the OP bought stolen copies of?

[Xavier Pomegranate]

I could make you a list, but it is easier to say that EVERY animation that has the thief listed as the creator was stolen, either from myself, Silva, or other animators. It is safer to just avoid anything that came out of the thiefs store. Its really not rocket science.

[Innula Zenovka]

The animations the OP bought can't, I thought, have been the ones stolen from Sylva, since they've been removed by LL.  

Which of your animations do you say the OP bought?   I'm not asking what you say has been stolen from you, in general; I'm asking you what you say she has bought that's stolen from you.

[Xavier Pomegranate]

Which of the animations, that the OP has, that came from the thief, which were originally mine, would depend on how many products she purchased from the thief. If she bought the couch or the shower engine from the thief then she likely has about a hundred of mine...so I am not going to waste my time listing them all. But, what I can say for certain is that there are other products out there, that have the thief listed as the creator, that Linden Labs has not gotten around to removing yet. I would love to list the thiefs name right here for you all to see, however that would likely be a TOS violation...even if its true.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

I didnt lose just one sale,... I think you may be to ignorant to realize it. But, I dont really care what you think, or what the original poster thinks. If I catch anybody in possession of my stolen items or reselling my stolen items you can be damn sure that I will notify them about it and notify EVERYONE that would find this information pertinent.

If the original poster is reselling any of my stolen property, rest assured she will have a DCMA filed against her. That is not a threat, thats a promise. And if she is selling anybody elses stolen property I will inform them as well.

Go ahead and test me. When you have a Second Life business that brings in large sums of real money maybe you will be as protective and assertive as I am. Until then, I will continue to try and protect my intellectual property, and the intellectual property of others, from theives and unauthorized uses.

You just seem to want to elevate this to a whole new level of stupidity. 

---

LOL Okay then, explain how her ONE purchase of an animation causes you to lose more than one sale for that animation. I'm not aware of anyone selling animations (including the animations i've created custom and for general release) that provide follow-on income .. UNLESS they are sold only as NoCopy and NoTrans .. in which case the OP would not have purchased them (or it) in the first place. She stated quite clearly she purchased the animation to include in a build, thus purchasing one that did not allow her to redistribute it with the build would have been the wrong thing to do.

Are you saying the animation you THINK she MAY have purchased is only sold by you as NoCopy or NoTrans? That the person she MIGHT have purchased it from and that you SUSPECT may have originally stolen it from you, sold it as Copy/Trans? (Oh, and btw .. which animation was it SPECIFICALLY that she stole from you? I'll need to see an exact list of the animations you claim to be yours so that I can see how you sell them and get a proper handle on how much of a loss you are claiming.)

PS: While we could engage in a "mine is bigger" contest, that's neither pertinent nor really my "thing". But you are right in one respect .. I'm trying to "elevate" this conversation to a level of dignity and intelligence. I just can't seem to get you to consider anything other than your own myopic perspective.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

Which of the animations, that the OP has, that came from the thief, which were originally mine, would depend on how many products she purchased from the thief. If she bought the couch or the shower engine from the thief then she likely has about a hundred of mine...so I am not going to waste my time listing them all. But, what I can say for certain is that there are other products out there, that have the thief listed as the creator, that Linden Labs has not gotten around to removing yet. I would love to list the thiefs name right here for you all to see, however that would likely be a TOS violation...even if its true.

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OHHH!! So you don't even know what she bought? She may very well have just joined the group to get updates .. and you have attacked her?!?

(what follows is a long stream of rather crude names that were bleeped out by the Forum software) *SIGH*

[Xavier Pomegranate]

I dont suspect that my items have been stolen. I know they have. I have copies of the thief's engine. You all can sit and speculate all you want about whether I am speaking the truth or not. I have offered o prove it but nobody here has taken me up on it. All talk and no action.

This system is rigged for the thieves.

 

[Xavier Pomegranate]

Oh, and before i forget to satisfy your curiosity, some of the animations that were stolen from me I had NEVER set to be sold with full permissions. So, I am obviously losing more than one sale. Get it now?

[Darrius Gothly]

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Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

I dont suspect that my items have been stolen. I know they have. I have copies of the thief's engine. You all can sit and speculate all you want about whether I am speaking the truth or not. I have offered o prove it but nobody here has taken me up on it. All talk and no action.

This system is rigged for the thieves. 

---

No argument from me there. Now tell me how the OP is a thief. You've attacked her as though she is. You've besmirched her name and done her untold damage, all because YOU got hurt by SOMEONE ELSE!?

When you can actually comprehend that YOUR pain does not give you the right to hurt OTHERS .. then and only then can you begin to have any credibility. For now though, you're just a whiny brat with no sense of decency or dignity.

I'm done with you Xavier. Done talking to you and done hoping you'll wise up.

Best of luck to you in the future. I can only pray you wake up and realize what harm you've done .. and decide to apologize for it to ALL those you've hurt.

[Darrius Gothly]

Emuna,

I'm sorry to see you deleted your rebuttal to Xavier. I had the chance to read it before you deleted it. I felt you had not only every right to say what you did, but you had the emotion to a tee. I was in the process of posting a "Way to go!" when it vanished.

If you do wish to post it again, rest assured I'll support it .. and you.

*smiles*

[Xavier Pomegranate]

I did not besmirch her name.  I found her name on a list regarding the thief shortly after I discovered the theft. You make it out like I found her and added her to a list of known criminals. Not true. I found her and contacted her to let her know what was happening. Thats all.

Nobody is saying she is a thief. Other merchants just want to make sure she is not reselling stolen stuff, knowingly or unknowingly. She got on a list based on the fact that she was in the thief's store VIP group.

Again, don't blame me, blame the thief. His actions landed her avatar name on a list of possible unauthorized content users. Emphasis on "possible". Blame the thief for that.

[Pamela Galli]

If someone was selling work that I recognized as mine, and I had a way to get a list of people who had bought what he was selling, I would probably notify those on the list of specific items I knew to be stolen. If they had full perm copies of my work and intended to resell them, I would remind them of the consequences. I would do it in a nice way; but I would certainly do it.

[Innula Zenovka]

So would I, but I would make sure I didn't leave them thinking I was accusing them of anything if, in fact, I wasn't.

"If you have bought one of the following items from such and such a shop, I thought should make you aware of the fact that it's the subject of a DMCA take-down request that I've filed with LL".   That's all that needs saying, to my mind.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

So would I, but I would make sure I didn't leave them thinking I was accusing them of anything if, in fact, I wasn't.

"If you have bought one of the following items from such and such a shop, I thought should make you aware of the fact that it's the subject of a DMCA take-down request that I've filed with LL".   That's all that needs saying, to my mind.

---

As would I. However I certainly wouldn't threaten them with being "added to a watch list", or telling them that myself and other creators would be "watching them". That's too many steps over the line.

I've found over the years that 99.9% or more of the people in SL are honest, decent folks. That's one of the reasons I objected so vehemently to Xavier's actions. All he had was the OP's name in a Group. That indicates nothing more than they joined the group

"Guilt by Association" isn't something we tolerate and that's exactly what he did. The OP was in the group and thus, to his way of thinking, she was worthy of warning off. I still think that as soon as he finds that shoe on the other foot, he'll raise just as big a stink protesting it.

 

[Xavier Pomegranate]

I would prefer to be warned that I have received stolen items so that I do not pass them on to future customers, and I also would not care if I ended up on a list where other Merchants were keeping an eye on me, because I want to do everything in my power to stay legitimate. Extra eyes can assist in that, and these merchant protection groups do a lot more good than they ever do harm. Stay legitimate and you have nothing to worry about.

And, how many times do I have to say that I found her avatar name on a watch list, I did not put it there.

[Pamela Galli]

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

So would I, but I would make sure I didn't leave them thinking I was accusing them of anything if, in fact, I wasn't.

"If you have bought one of the following items from such and such a shop, I thought should make you aware of the fact that it's the subject of a DMCA take-down request that I've filed with LL".   That's all that needs saying, to my mind.

---

If in fact he, and possibly Sylva or other affected animators, intend to monitor what those in this VIP group are selling -- then I don't see a problem with saying so, per se.  I did not read any transcript so I don't know if he intended to sound threatening, if he unintentionally sounded threatening, or if he was just providing information and was just interpreted as sounding threatening. Any of the above are possible -- the bare facts concerning consequences may be unpleasant but that does not mean the animator's tone was inappropriate, if that is the concern here. In this thread he has come across as emphatic, but to me, not inappropriate, given the blow that discovering your IP stolen is.  That is not to say that I have any clue if his tone was appropriate with the OP. 

[nuria Augapfel]

Hello Xavier, i'm sorry for your situation. Long time ago i found some of my products copybotted and sold as full perm, to result in a lot of people selling my items as own...i remember that i contacted one individual (who was selling my products) to warn him that they had bought stolen stuff from my store ( showing irrefutable evidence) and asked him to remove the stuff from sale, if not i would have to send DMCA . The person refused, was extremely stupid and stated that was going to contact a lawyer (lol...)  I even remember that he said something like "mine looks better than yours" (when they were identical sculpts). Evidently, the stolen stuff were deleted few days after my DMCA, but i have to admit that i almost felt more bothered for this "merchant" that by the thief himself.

Now when I find someone selling stolen items from my store i do not bother to contact the person to warn. I send directlly DMCA to get the stuff deleted...I feel a bit ashamed to see some merchants attacking and blaming another merchant (somehow) who has suffered the distribution of their work and who is being very correct in his statements

Apologies for my english^^

[ImaTest1488314069]

Once upon a time my original av was a merchant(not this av). He enjoyed creating, selling and after the fact seeing others enjoy his products. One day he got an IM from someone who said "hey, you know that thingamabob you had out the other day, there's one over here too, I thought you said that wasn't for sale yet". Hmm, strange. "tp me". He checks it out. Sure enough his thingamabob is right there in front of him, textured the same, sized the same, looks identical actually. Now, this thing is a sculpt and not an extraordinary one at that, so it is entirely possible that two people would come up with the same idea. Likely? Maybe not, but it is possible. The texture however, is not possible. You see this thingamabob has a personalized texture on it, there's a watermark that you can only see if you know where to look for it, and know what you're looking for. Interesting idea, huh? It came about because of some texture theft about 6 months before this issue, but that's irrelevant to this case. Time for a take down. He goes through his proper channels. LL takes their sweet time. He never contacts this merchant selling his stuff. Why? Because it's not worth the aggrivation he knows will come about. Eventually LL take down the item. The thief lost, as well he should. The only problem is, before this happened multiple people happened to get a hold of this item. Because it was shared, not only in sl, but on external servers as well.

His very special project, and it very much was one, was completely ruined by someone who simply did not give a kangaroo's toe for anyone else. Forget the fact that SL provided him and his family with enough income that neither he nor his teenage son had to work-single father and all. Forget the fact that he painstakingly worked for weeks on this project. Ok, no, let's not forget those facts, they are the reason he filed a take down to begin with, else he wouldn't have bothered. It's a pain in the butt, the whole process. The theif who stole his item continued trying to do so for a good long while with lots of things. One take down after another filed. Eventually some newb came along and did the same thing, except he didn't catch it right away. So a lot more of his creations were out scattered on the grid without his knowledge. You can bett your butt he was pissed. Who wouldn't be? It's your property being stolen.

This time he decided to contact some of the people who unknowingly puchased his stolen goods, because LL were taking longer and longer to get through the take downs. The very first step was to CONFIRM that these people did indeed buy his products. He did that numerous ways. In some cases it was easy to see they had, because they were out in public places, other merchant's stores, on xstreet/marketplace. So how did he handle this?  He created a notecard on it he put all of the information he could about his stolen product, including snapshots where appropriate. He included information about the take down process and how it was going thus far, or where he was as far as the steps go on that. He included how he knew they had his product. He never once said "I'm watching you, we're watching you, you're on a list, we suspect you're selling stolen goods". In fact, he never once accused THEM of anything. He did however, accuse the actual thief up to and including the thief's name, store, alt-the idiot had his alt's name in his profile. He never once came across accusatory to them in any manner. He felt that was the right thing to do. This thief, it turned out, had stolen from no less than 6 merchants, some of which eventually got together to share notes and compare. NONE of them EVER went after potential victims of this thief to accuse them, NONE. Why, I mean these people were selling stolen content, or at least, owned it, right? The reason is, those people were victims themselves. Like it or not, they are.

How you handle yourself in crappy situations says a lot. Stolen from or not, you have NO RIGHT to accuse anyone of theivery, except the person who actually stole. I don't doubt you were robbed, I don't doubt that one bit. But the OP, did NOT rob you. Stop treating her, or others, as if they did, and you will find that you'll meet an awful lot more sympathy, and maybe even assistance, along the way. Those vigilante groups, despite what you might think, who create these lists are NOT always as helpful as they seem. Right now, because you're angry, and hurt, and upset, you think they're right as rain. But one day, you might come to find they aren't, and you might just understand why people are so very wary of them. They can be helpful, in the right situations, but most times, they are not. I learned that the hard way when dealing with one of my robbers. It was not pleasant.

My original av is now long gone. Because of what happened, he had to join the actual rl work force and no longer has time for creation in sl. It truly is a shame. He joined in 2004, his business running from 2005 until 2012. That's a long run my friend, a very long run. Nearing the end it wasn't nearly as large as it once was, for all kinds of reasons. So I can be very empathetic to your problem, very. I have been there. It is not an easy road. But just because it's not easy for you, does not mean you should go forth and make things extra difficult on everyone that might have crossed paths with your robber. That's just not right man. That's not how you handle things. How you say things, and how you go about them, is going to be scrutinized by people, the same way you are scrutinizing people who may potentially own your animations. If you don't like that, then change your manner. It's really that simple. You went about this the wrong way. If I were you, this is what I would have done...I would have made a notecard and in it, put this

"Hello, I am writing you today to let you know about something unfortunate. Please know I am not accusing you of anything, or any bad deeds. I am simply offering a heads up. I noticed you are in X group. I have come to find out that X(owner of said group/merchant/robber) is in posession of stolen goods. I know the goods are stolen, because they are mine. I am going to provide you the names of items I know are stolen. If you have, by chance, purchased these items, or know of anyone who has, I am asking kindly that you please not re-sell or share them in any way. I have filed a take down with LL. We are simply awaiting an answer. When the take down goes through these items will be removed from the grid. This means they will be removed from your products as well. That could prove to be disasterous for you as well as me. I would hate for anyone else to feel as I do right now. Thank you so much for your time and attention with this matter"

And include a list of all stolen items. Notice I didn't include any other merchant's stolen goods, but you could if you wanted to-assuming you have proof, but if take downs went through those items would no longer exist anyway. See something like this, and something that says "you have stolen stuff, you're on a list, we're all watching you" are going to garner two totally different responses. The latter is at the very least, mean, the former however not only makes your point but also paints you in all kinds of good light. It comes across professional, understanding(that this person may too be a victim) and will likely get you more empathy than pointing the finger and saying "you stole from me". Your words say "you stole from me", I'm not even the one accused and it feels like you're sitting there with your finger pointed at the world.

Please know I am NOT going to name call or try to degrade you, or make you feel bad, I simply post from the POV of someone who has sat in your shoes, literally lost it all, and doesn't want to see another merchant go by the wayside because of ill thought out plans when it comes to dealing with theft. Theft is no joke, regardless of the monetary amount. But being mean yourself when someone else has wronged you certainly won't get you any further.

Good god that was long, I apologize.

[Emuna Zamani]

I deleted my post because I felt like he did not deserve any words from me.  He is stuck on "Poor Xavier" and he is not seeing the problems that he has caused.

If Xavier would have contacted me in a respectful and professional manner, that would have been different.  I would have appreciated him letting me know that I had purchased stolen animations and I would have tried to do what I could, IF anything to put the person that stole them out of business.  What Xavier did was contact me with threats and informed me that I was now on several lists . . . he had become "Big Brother" and he was watching.  He had no proof that the items were stolen, there was no list of the items to provide to me and he had no proof that I purchased them (I did).  He just rode in on his big white horse called assumption, brandishing his sword at me like I was the thief and he was going to save all of Second Life from me.  That is not how you contact someone respectfully.

I honestly think that Xavier's act could divide a community of good people.  I am scared to purchased anything from anyone now.  Not that I worry that it may have stolen content because I would just stop using it and lindens come and go. What I fear is being added to another witch-hunt list when I did nothing wrong.  I know of others that have joined me in this and just imagine if that continues.  What will that do for the Second Life economy?

Xavier, you had no right to contact me the way that you did and being part of adding my name to any watch-list is the act of a coward.  Your efforts should be focused more on people that you KNOW steal from others and how to prevent then from doing so, the right way.  You have no idea if my store would be supplementing my RL income or anything about me.  Now you have tarnished my name and the store that I was promoting more seriously.  I had gone to Sylva's before all of this happened to find out how to become part of her builder's group so that I could purchase full perm animations.  What do you think may happen when she sees my name?  If I were her, I would probably deny it too because according to Xavier, Emuna deals in stolen animations.  Thanks a lot, Xavier.  Good job!

[ImaTest1488314069]

This is exactly what happens each and every time something like this happens. Someone gets bent out of shape, rightly so, because someone else stole from them, but then they take it a step further. The problem is, rather than sticking to what they do know, and can prove and taking care of THOSE issues, they start to take the world down around them. Often times, not realizing the ramifications of their own actions.

Behaving like a child, which is exactly what name calling, false accusations and wanting the entire world's head on a spear all are, is not how grown adults handle things. Even worse, it's not how grown adult business persons handle things. At least not ones that intend to be taken seriously. Okay, it's not how they SHOULD handle things. I can honestly say, as a merchant or regular old player, I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. Which is pretty out of character for me, I'm a rather non-judgemental person normally. I tend to offer a lot of room for error, human flaws and whatnot. I have plenty of times purchased from people I disagree with, and flat out don't like even. What I don't like, or put up with, is someone so hell bent on being a victim that they create multiple victims in their own wake of destruction crying woe is me. That never sits right with me, ever. I could have behaved the same way myself, it was tempting to get mad at people who bought my stolen content from the theif. But, what good would it do? As I see it, absolutely none. Just as his rant has served absolutely no purpose. Unless the intent was to prove how NOT ready for business, in any capacity, he is.

[Marcus Hancroft]

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ImaTest wrote:

<snip> ...I'd never purchase form Xavier based entirely on his words in this one thread. <snip>

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I agree completely, Ima, and I've added his name to my own list of "Don't Buy From These People" merchants.  I'd be willing to bet that Emuna won't either.  So now there's 3 customers he's lost.  Too bad, Xavier.