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Emuna Zamani

Caught in the Middle

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nuria Augapfel wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Xavier Pomegranate wrote:

 

As a helper here, what really irks me and worries me is did you send your little note to everyone in that VIP group and on this watch list?  How many people in that group are actually, like Emuna here, innocent victims.  Because that is what someone who receives stolen goods without knowledge of what they are is, they like you are a victim also.

 

What the hell is wrong about sending a warn to all the group members of that group (who were evidently customers) to warn them that they bought stolen animations from a thief and to warn them that the original creators will keep an eye on them to be sure that the stolen stuff is not being resold? The problem is simple,
they are innocent victims and as far as i know nobody said otherwise
. But Xavier and the other animators affected CANNOT know about the honesty of each of the members of that group and if they keep selling the stuff even knowing that it's stolen. if you are an honest person i don't understand why this has to be an offense

I would love to see the reactions if we were talking about our own stuff....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings. How you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it.

He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

 

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It should go without saying, if you've actually read the thread, that Xavier already admitted his wording wasn't very nice...

"Maybe I could have chosen my words better, but keep in mind...i had just learned that I was robbed. And it was not a small theft, it was major."

One wouldn't say that if they didn't actually believe it. He also mentioned earlier on in the thread that if someone didn't do "real investigating" they were simply defending the thief. This. in a response, directly about Emuna, as that's who the poster was defending. So...calling her a thief, and insulting the person defending her in one blow. Not cool.

She was/is no more a thief than anyone else. The real theif needs dealt with, and now he's at the mercy of the lab for that one. In the meantime it IS wise to contact people who have purchased these stolen things. I agree completely with that. I do not agree that going into a store group and contacting each and every person is a good idea though.  At least not directly. I have seen people go into store group chats with a "guys, i hate to be the bearer of bad news but, I've got proof that X is selling stolen/copybotted/ripped items. I'd be happy to send it to anyone wanting info", etc... something to that effect. I'm not really one for contacting people who might have stolen goods, I prefer proof, but that's just me. We don't know if he contacted each and every person in that store group. We do know he got Emuna's name from that group though. He actually said a few things about that. He said he found her name on the vip group, that he found the thief's name on a watch list, and also that he found her(Emuna's) name on a watch list. It was stated three different ways in three different posts. All that tells me is he's rather upset, and worked up, and I don't blame him, and not able to keep things straight when he answers. This also tells me that, since he's already gone through the proper channels, now would be a good time to sit back, breathe deep and regroup. Before he says, or does anything that can cause damage that can't be undone. Whether it's to his business, reputation, or anything else. He's not helping his case here, at all.

When you're upset is typically the worst time to try and deal with problems. Why? Because you're upset, lol. You're not likely going to always be in the best state of mind. You will likely say something you may want to rethink at a later date. Once you put it out there though, you can't take it back. All you can do is apologize for your misstep, hope people understand, and move on. Why keep doing things you'll probably have to apologize for at some point, or at least, restate.(aka "maybe I could have chosen my words better")

You don't have to agree, no one does, but I strongly believe he handled this terribly and that is the exact reason I said I wouldn't shop with him. I made it a point to state that this is completely out of character for me because it really is. Even more to actually state it publicly. I'm a lot more understanding than a lot of people, and a lot more patient. I deal with having to be patient with people on a daily basis, especially people who get upset and have outbursts. I'd rather not explain why though, as it pertains to rl. So, I can be sympathetic, even empathetic to the issues surrounding theft. I have been there as well, which also gives me another perspective. What I can't, and won't do, is continue offering that same understanding when it's been repeatedly been pointed out that it was handled badly, and that person(or anyone else) continues to say what amounts to "nuh uh". That doesn't sit well with me. Especially when it involves the livelihood of other people. Be it sl income, or sl income turned rl income, it doesn't matter to me. Emuna's name is now on the line, and he's had a hand at putting it there. Not admitting that, or not being able to see that just shows me he's still upset and either not ready or not willing, to handle the problem like an adult.

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ImaTest wrote:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings.
How
you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it.

 

Seriously....the only thing that Xavier made clear is that he warned this person because she had in possession stolen stuff  (which she has admitted) and that he and the others designers affected will keep an eye on the people that have their stolen animations to be sure that are not for sale....how terrible is that, eh? Everything else is speculation. 

There is nothing that hurts Emuna (she came here alone to expose the issue, if not none of us would know about this). 

Xavier was nice enough as to warn her (probably in a harsh way) but you can be sure that some other wouldn't have said NOTHING about and just would have waited to file a DMCA. 

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nuria Augapfel wrote:


ImaTest wrote:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings.
How
you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it.

 

Seriously....the only thing that Xavier made clear is that he warned this person because she had in possession stolen stuff  (which she has admitted) and that he and the others designers affected will keep an eye on the people that have their stolen animations to be sure that are not for sale....how terrible is that, eh? Everything else is
speculation. 

There is nothing that hurts Emuna (she came here alone to expose the issue, if not none of us would know about this). 

Xavier was nice enough as to warn her (probably in a harsh way) but you can be sure that some other wouldn't have said NOTHING about and just would have waited to file a DMCA. 

Where has Emuna "admitted" to having stolen stuff in her possession?  

I don't know what animations she's bought from that shop and neither do you, and neither does Xavier.  I know Xavier says the shop sells animations that have been stolen from him, but I don't think he's said that the whole stock is stolen from him.    

All Emuna has said is that she's bought animations from this shop.   All the rest is assertions by Xavier, which may or may not be credible.  At the highest, all he can safely assert is that she may or may not have some animations that he says were stolen from him.     The only people who know for sure what animations she bought are Emuna and the chap she bought them from.    All the rest is speculation.

He says he's filed a DMCA take-down notice.   We know that LL have acted expeditiously in taking down animations stolen from Sylva Petrov sold in this shop, so presumably they'll act equally expeditiously in his case.  Or, if they don't, we can draw our own conclusions (my conclusion would be that the person from whom Emuna has bought the animations disputes Xavier's claims, in which case it will be up to the courts to determine the facts of the matter).

 

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I wonder if you do not read my  post---again:

Innula, i think that with a bit of experience and reading the statements from Xavier is easy to figure out that ALL the animations coming from that avatar were stolen from several animators...Javier has offered openly to prove that  their animations were stolen and named other well established animators affected by the same thief. Are the animations that Emuna bought the ones stolen from Xavier? maybe, it's possible and for this reason Xavier sent the email warning about the issue. What is clear is that these animations (coming or not from Xavier) are stolen....there are more than one (established) designer affected  and the store of the thieft is gone. DMCA's has been processed. 

We all know that Persuade LL most of the times requires much time and patience, this kind of issues are handled slowly.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

And i  wonder too why you are being  so distrustful and constantly put into question the word of a well established designer who have a 2 sims store and more than 5 years account...

I can tell you that i have filed many DMCA's to LL. Some of them got a quickly response, some others was needed to send them again because nothing was done. You can draw your own conclusions but i would not recommend you to believe that presumably LL always act fast in DMCA disputes.

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nuria Augapfel wrote:


ImaTest wrote:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sending warnings.
How
you do it, is what matters most and will make or break your case. It's very clear that Xavier has never had to deal with theft before, which is probably a relief for him. Because he very clearly went about it the wrong way. In stating his case here, he's continued, repeatedly, to go about it the wrong way. In fact has only compounded the problem, and created a mountain of problems for others. How you can't see that, and how you can't see his continual sharing of Emuna's name, and perhaps even others since he did admit he got her name from this person's group, is a terrible way to handle things tells me that you too have never had to deal with it.

 

Seriously....the only thing that Xavier made clear is that he warned this person because she had in possession stolen stuff  (which she has admitted) and that he and the others designers affected will keep an eye on the people that have their stolen animations to be sure that are not for sale....how terrible is that, eh? Everything else is
speculation. 

There is nothing that hurts Emuna (she came here alone to expose the issue, if not none of us would know about this). 

Xavier was nice enough as to warn her (probably in a harsh way) but you can be sure that some other wouldn't have said NOTHING about and just would have waited to file a DMCA. 

I haven't made any speculations at all, actually. I don't think you're reading all the responses as individual ones, but rather as a lump group. Though I could be entirely wrong and you could see something in my words I didn't put there, I'm not really sure. But I know I've made no speculations. I posted a story about how I dealt with a nearly identical situation, because I thought it would be helpful to see how someone else might handle a similar situation. I know it's certainly helped someone else simply because I've spent the last couple hours discussing it with that merchant. Someone who didn't know how to handle theft, and didn't want to go about it the wrong way, after reading this thread, and others like it about similar instances.

You just said yourself that he probably warned her harshly. Do you honestly find that to be the best way to handle a situation? I'm not expecting to change your mind or anything, but that does come across a little bit odd to me. I do believe you're right that a lot of people wouldn't bother to contact. I already said as much, that contacting people is a wise decision. That doesn't mean you should do it in whatever manner you choose. You should still handle such things with care. It's a delicate situation, from all angles(except for the thief's angle). I know I sure as heck listen a lot less when someone is berating me, or seemingly accusing me, than if they were straight forward and to the point without those rather demeaning qualities added in.

I am not sure why you think Emuna has not been harmed by any of this. She very much has, and may continue to be, she's even said as much. I am taking her on her word on that one just as much as I am taking Xavier on his word that his animations were stolen. I believe both of them and have absolutely no reason not to believe them. Her being on a list in general causes her harm. If you think it doesn't, I can't expect to convince you. But she will lose potential customers. Now he may not have put her on that list, but he's definitely confirmed her place there. It may not have been intentional, because as I said, he's upset. But that is why I said it happened in the wake of his own upset condition. Actions, and words, always have consequences, good or bad, they always do. It's a good idea to choose them wisely.

 

 

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nuria Augapfel wrote:

I wonder if you do not read my  post---again:

Innula, i think that with a bit of experience and reading the statements from Xavier is easy to figure out that ALL the animations coming from that avatar were stolen from several animators...Javier has offered openly to prove that  their animations were stolen and named other well established animators affected by the same thief. Are the animations that Emuna bought the ones stolen from Xavier? maybe, it's possible and for this reason Xavier sent the email warning about the issue. What is clear is that these animations (coming or not from Xavier) are stolen....there are more than one (established) designer affected  and the store of the thieft is gone. DMCA's has been processed. 

We all know that
 Persuade 
LL most of the times requires much time and patience, this kind of issues are handled slowly.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

And i  wonder too why you are being  so distrustful and constantly put into question the word of a well established designer who have a 2 sims store and more than 5 years account...

I can tell you that i have filed many DMCA's to LL. Some of them got a quickly response, some others was needed to send them again because nothing was done. You can draw your own conclusions but i would not recommend you to believe that 
presumably LL always act fast in DMCA disputes.

In my day job, we have some rules like the burden of proof being on the person who makes an allegation and that it has to be backed up by evidence.    Those are the rules that will apply if the person against whom the DMCA complaint is made decides to contest the action, too. 

Xavier has offered to prove that this guy has stolen some of his animations, certainly.  What he has not offered to prove, however, is that these animations are among those that Emuna has bought.   How can he?   All he can do is speculate, and that's all you can do, too.

If you say that  Emuna has in her possession some stolen animations, please show me the evidence.  Tell me the names of these animations you say are stolen.     I don't know if she does or not, you see, but I'm willing to be convinced by evidence.     And I don't care how established a designer Xavier is  -- that does not mean he has psychic abilities, which, to my mind, he would need in order to know what Emuna has or hasn't bought.

 

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ImaTest wrote:

I am not sure why you think Emuna has not been harmed by any of this. She very much has, and may continue to be, she's even said as much. I am taking her on her word on that one just as much as I am taking Xavier on his word that his animations were stolen. I believe both of them and have absolutely no reason not to believe them. Her being on a list in general causes her harm. If you think it doesn't, I can't expect to convince you. But she will lose potential customers. Now he may not have put her on that list, but he's definitely confirmed her place there. It may not have been intentional, because as I said, he's upset. But that is why I said it happened in the wake of his own upset condition. Actions, and words, always have consequences, good or bad, they always do. It's a good idea to choose them wisely.

Ima...i do not have problem about you posting how well you've handled a situation like this and how badly and terrible Xavier did it...You're assuming that Emuna is in some kind of blacklist but  A.we do not now if she's really on some list  B. even being on a list we do not know who have acces to this list (wich probably it's only managed for merchants and the affected content creators that already know about this issue) 

To state that she will lose potential customers in my opinion is to fall into drama, while i can accept that probably Xavier could have handled the situation better (with better manners) this do not change the facts: There are some merchants affected by content theft and checking that the people who own their stolen stuff do not put it for sale.

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ImaTest wrote ( to Nuria):

He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

 

Just want to say that Nuria, as owner of N-Core (https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/40957) probably has more experience with IP theft than everyone else in this thread put together. 

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Innula, you've reminded me the famous battle between 2 skin makers (one of them famous and the other almost unknown). I'm sure that you know about what i'm talking. If we all were guided by the evidences, as are the things now should we think that the famous and well established skin maker was the one who violated the other's work. But for those who are close to the situation and have knowledge about the facts we know very well that in this case the evidences and proofs are far away from the truth. Besides what seems an evidence, there is also a thing called common sense...i explained this because not always an evidence is needed to know the truth.                          

I'm going to leave, but i think that there are a very easy solution for this issue. I think that Emuna should meet with Xavier and the other animators affected to show them the animations that she bought. Then the animators would know for sure what are the animations that Emuna own and if they are stolen or not (and from who). If are stolen it's up to Emuna decide whether to delete them or not (trusting animators) and if not then they have a chance to file DMCA. 

With good communication everything is possible, just a little effort on both sides...

 

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:


ImaTest wrote ( to Nuria):

He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

 

Just want to say that Nuria, as owner of N-Core (
probably has more experience with IP theft than everyone else in this thread put together. 

 

Hi Pamela, (unfortunately) i think so.... thanks for your comment *smiles*

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nuria Augapfel wrote:


Ima...i do not have problem about you posting how well you've handled a situation like this and how badly and terrible Xavier did it...You're assuming that Emuna is in some kind of blacklist but  
A.
we do not now if she's really on some list  
B.
even being on a list we do not know who have acces to this list (wich probably it's only managed for merchants and the affected content creators that already know about this issue) 

To state that she will lose potential customers in my opinion is to fall into drama, while i can accept that probably Xavier could have handled the situation better (with better manners) this do not change the facts: There are some merchants affected by content theft and checking that the people who own their stolen stuff do not put it for sale.

We do know she's on the list, Xavier said that's where he found her. We know where the list came from, he said where it came from. We know a group of merchants are "watching her", he said they are. You want people to believe what he's said, yet you're ignoring almost everything he's already posted. Me, I believe him, and I believe everything he's said up until now. Including how he's treated her, how he found her, that he knows she's on a list, etc.. It's not falling into "drama" to state the truth. It IS a fact that when lists, of this nature, are shared at least some people who MAY have otherwise shopped, at some point with that merchant, no longer will. Are you telling me you believe that everyone in posession of that list(and I don't really need to know who all has it, the fact that it exists is scary enough) is going to ignore the names being on that list and shop with those merchants anyway? Do you understand how unreasonable that assumption is? It's a fact that, at least some, will choose to not shop with those merchants. You can deny it all you want, but it won't make it true.

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Pamela Galli wrote:


ImaTest wrote ( to Nuria):

He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

 

Just want to say that Nuria, as owner of N-Core (
probably has more experience with IP theft than everyone else in this thread put together. 

And Nuria just said in the post above yours,

"while i can accept that probably Xavier could have handled the situation better (with better manners),"

which was the point several had to speak 'loudly' to get across.

As I stated above, if he had handled this 'diplomatically,' he could have had an ally.  Instead he has shot himself in the foot and by his actions created dissension among the Merchants.  He has not furthered the cause of Merchants in the fight against theft.  His actions were nothing more or less than self serving.

 

Disclaimer:  I know that I am not an SL Merchant. However I have over 20 years in retail sales and Mgt and it is from that perspective I speak.  I have seen the impact false accusations and innuendo can have and I can guarantee you they haven't always been pleasant.

Xavier spoke of a List.  Who knows how many innocent victims are on that list?  Who knows what other legitimate merchants names are on that list?  What if that list accidentally became public?  Sorry, but self appointed guardians tend to eventually do more harm than the good they are claiming to be trying to accomplish.

 

 

 

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As I've mentioned, I work much of  the time in SL with my business partner, a well-known animator, so I know how much effort she puts into her animations, and how much she hopes to earn from them.   I'm acutely aware of how much she dreads her animations going full perms , and so do I.

However, if, God forbid, some of her animations did get pirated, I am certain she wouldn't handle it this way, and, if she tried to, I wouldn't let her, quite simply.    Not that I'd have to, but I'd say something like, "Look love, I realise how upset and angry you are, but this is just going to make a bad situation worse.    Please, you concentrate on the DMCA filing and let me handle the people who may, in good faith, have bought the stuff".   

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:


ImaTest wrote ( to Nuria):

He, you, and anyone else who hasn't dealt with it should take the advice from those who have. We're not speaking out of our rear ends.

 

Just want to say that Nuria, as owner of N-Core (
probably has more experience with IP theft than everyone else in this thread put together. 

And Nuria just said in the post above yours,

"while i can accept that probably Xavier could have handled the situation better (with better manners),"

which was the point several had to speak 'loudly' to get across.

 

 

No, no one had to speak loudly. Xavier said as much, I said I had no evidence one way or the other, based on just the forum posts. 

 

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Sorry but I have to speak up a bit here. Ripping animations is not like ripping objects. If a motion capture creator says that their animation was ripped, then it is likely ripped. Xavier is right that no mocap can simply be duplicated, it is IMPOSSIBLE. Any mocap creator would know right away when it is their mocaps. The process is long and tedious, and it is usually their own movements. Even if they are using a model for the motions, the animator will know every single bend or twist, as they still have to go frame by frame and tweak things. A mocap can be hundreds of frames to almost a thousand, and can end up being days of constant work just for 1 10 second animation.

Now, maybe Xavier could have handled things with the OP better, but I would never question a creator as to whether their creation was ripped or not, especially a mocap creator. Let's also remember that we all have a great attachment to our own work, and to see some1 else copy it from you, and try to sell it, can be heartwrentching. There is much emotion in all this, and when we all get this way, we will respond with that torture in our words, whether we mean to do it or not. We are all human, and not robots, lets hope we all stay this way, but also learn along the way.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Now, maybe Xavier could have handled things with the OP better, but I would never question a creator as to whether their creation was ripped or not, especially a mocap creator. Let's also remember that we all have a great attachment to our own work, and to see some1 else copy it from you, and try to sell it, can be heartwrentching.
There is much emotion in all this, and when we all get this way, we will respond with that torture in our words, whether we mean to do it or not. We are all human, and not robots, lets hope we all stay this way, but also learn along the way.

This is the exact point I am pretty sure myself, and others, were trying to make. This is why how you handle it matters just as much as the fact that you do handle it. Because it is far more likely you'll do so with heated emotions. This sort of thing, in my honest opinion, is what will separate merchants. Some will always handle things badly. Some will only somtimes handle it badly. Others will always handle it with care. I fit the latter now, though I once fit the middle. Humans are not infallible, we all make mistakes. The difference between adults, and children, is that we are expected to own up to our mistakes when we do make them, or when we realize we have. We're long past the age of innocence and right from wrong is no longer a difficulty.(for the majority of adults, barring something that keeps them from differentiating that is).

As I said in another thread, when you know better, you do better. You don't continue to defend your poor actions once you're aware of them. That's not going to help things, at all. Having others defend your poor actions will also only compound the problem, and likely create new ones too. That's what happened here. Not only do we have the issue of content theft, but also the issue of dragging others through the mud in the wake of dealing with the crime committed against you. Things like that can cause all kinds of damage. Why anyone would want to compound a problem, make it mutliply and cause all kinds of little brances of problems to start budding, is beyond me.

 

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Oh you mean like calling for a boycott? 

You seem to be and advocate for grace for some, not for others.

 

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ImaTest wrote:

 

This is the exact point I am pretty sure myself, and others, were trying to make. This is why how you handle it matters just as much as the fact that you do handle it. Because it is far more likely you'll do so with heated emotions. This sort of thing, in my honest opinion, is what will separate merchants. Some will always handle things badly. Some will only somtimes handle it badly. Others will always handle it with care. I fit the latter now, though I once fit the middle. Humans are not infallible, we all make mistakes. The difference between adults, and children, is that we are expected to own up to our mistakes when we do make them, or when we realize we have. We're long past the age of innocence and right from wrong is no longer a difficulty.(for the majority of adults, barring something that keeps them from differentiating that is).

 


 

Some people insist and insist with the idea that Xavier has handled the things badly and seems that some people enjoy judging and blaming this merchant even missing a big part of information. In my opinion the only thing  that may have been handled badly by Xavier could be the manners with which he contacted to the OP...let's put that he was harsh on the notecard (which no one here really knows) because he was upset and due lack of experience...is that SOO terrible? ISN'T. Seriously, if you can not show some comprehension for this, get over it. 

About the list, let's put that was made by the merchants and this list simply includes the names of all the members from the vip group of the thief store, who were customers and potential resellers of the stolen animations. Merchants wants through that list keep an eye to the people that may have in possession their stolen animations to be sure that are not reselling them....is to have made this list have handled things wrong? NO. Should the OP be worried about? NO while she do not sell stolen content.

Again, Xavier has clearly stated that is aware that the OP and the other people who bought the stolen stuff are innocent and victims from the thief . Has become clear that all of you would have handled a situation like this a lot better (that sounds good,eh?) but stop crucifying him.

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Oh you mean like calling for a boycott? 

You seem to be and advocate for grace for some, not for others.

 

You explain to me how I called for a boycott first. I explained my stance and explained why, or rather how, his actions could lead to me deciding not to purchase there. I did not call for a boycott, nor did I say people should not shop with him. I think people should make their own decisions and for the most part, most boycotts are done in the heat of the moment without any amount of actual thought behind them. Mine has a lot of thought behind it, which is why I felt the need to explain it.

I also explained to him exactly how our own actions and words can and do have consequences, both good and bad. Hopefully when this happens again, because we all know it will, though we try so very hard to stop it, maybe the next person who gets upset(and again, I believe everyone would, I didn't say they shouldn't) might just take time for a breather before reacting and doing exactly what happened.

 

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nuria Augapfel wrote:


ImaTest wrote:

 

This is the exact point I am pretty sure myself, and others, were trying to make. This is why
how
you handle it matters just as much as the fact that you do handle it. Because it
is
far more likely you'll do so with heated emotions. This sort of thing, in my honest opinion, is what will separate merchants. Some will always handle things badly. Some will only somtimes handle it badly. Others will always handle it with care. I fit the latter now, though I once fit the middle. Humans are not infallible, we all make mistakes. The difference between adults, and children, is that we are expected to own up to our mistakes when we do make them, or when we realize we have. We're long past the age of innocence and right from wrong is no longer a difficulty.(for the majority of adults, barring something that keeps them from differentiating that is).

 

 

Some people insist and insist with the idea that Xavier has handled the things badly and seems that some people enjoy judging and blaming this merchant even missing a big part of information. In my opinion the only thing  that
may
have been handled badly by Xavier could be the manners with which he contacted to the OP...let's put that he was harsh on the notecard (which no one here really knows) because he was upset and due lack of experience...is that SOO terrible? ISN'T. Seriously, if you can not show some comprehension for this, get over it. 

About the list, let's put that was made by the merchants and this list simply includes the names of all the members from the vip group of the thief store, who were customers and potential resellers of the stolen animations. Merchants wants through that list keep an eye to the people that may have in possession their stolen animations to be sure that are not reselling them....is to have made this list have handled things wrong? NO. Should the OP be worried about? NO while she do not sell stolen content.

Again, Xavier has clearly stated that is aware that the OP and the other people who bought the stolen stuff are innocent and victims from the thief . Has become clear that all of you would have handled a situation like this a lot better (that sounds good,eh?) but stop crucifying him.

 

No one is trying to crucify anyone else. In fact, that word isn't even applicable here. But if you really want to use it, then Xavier, and you, are just as guilty of it as anyone else. So, let's just call that a wash, shall we. That's simply tit for tat and not a game I really enjoy playing.

What's done is done. Clearly there are multiple victims in this. Xavier is a victim, Emuna is a victim, anyone else on that list that may have been contacted is also a victim. No one victim holds any more importance than another. At least, not to me.

But none of that changes the fact that we ALL can learn from others' mistakes, and I do mean all.

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I agree Nuria. The ppl in this thread who are willing to cut Xavier some slack as well as Emuma are all those who treat SL like a full time job and know that having your stuff copied is like being punched in the stomach. (I don't have a clue who Mr. Alt is.)  Is Emuma the only one qualified to get a break, and if so, why? I mean, her response has hardly been a model of cool calm thinking, either -- can you imagine calling LL support AND posting in the forum over something like this? 

 

Geez put away the rope.

 

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 Is Emuma the only one qualified to get a break, and if so, why? I mean, her response has hardly been a model of cool calm thinking, either -- can you imagine calling LL support AND posting in the forum over something like this? 

 

Geez put away the rope.

 

 

LOL...absolutely agree Pamela.

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Nuria,

I've stayed out of this for a bit, hanging back to see what people say. But now I feel the time is right to weigh back in.

Xavier approached Emuna with two main points.

  1. She had purchased stolen Animations, and
  2. She was on a "Watch List" and her actions would now be under scrutiny.

Ignoring the manners Xavier used or the tone of his message, these two assertions, one of which is pure assumption, are enough by themselves to engender a very negative reaction in most people.

His first point, that she had purchased stolen Animations, is pure speculation. Even though she has now verified (in a subsequent post) that the animations she purchased may indeed be stolen, since Xavier has not provided a list of the Animations he claims were stolen, she cannot be sure if they were stolen from him. But more to the point, Xavier had only found her name either in the VIP Group of the accused seller or from some sort of a Watch List. (He's been a bit fuzzy on this point, having said both were sources in different posts.)

Being approached and told "You bought stolen..." immediately sets people on edge. The fact that she HAD purchased animations combined with Xavier's statement about her purchase led her to think "How does this guy know what I bought?" Because he "got it right" .. the unease his statement caused was enough to put Emuna on the defensive.

The second point of his initial contact was even more disconcerting. I don't know what experience you've had, but I believe it's a safe bet that a large majority of people that are not very recent members of the Internet Community have run into stories .. Horror Stories .. of various groups putting together "Lists" of people they consider "Bad" .. and all the drama, false accusations, ruined reputations and needless BS that comes afterwards. The mere fact that he spoke as some sort of Authority Figure, when he clearly has no authority whatsoever, the fact that he flat out insinuated she was suspected of doing something bad by virtue of being on "The List" .. and his overall brusque manner were again unsettling and confrontational.

You are an established Merchant with a long track-record of sales and customers. As such, you are very comfortable and confident that any accusation or personal attack will shortly be seen as hogwash, so they have little to no effect on you. But Emuna is not you. Instead she is a fairly new Merchant that has only just recently renewed her efforts at selling in Second Life. During this start-up time, everything is ultra-critical, and anything that might disrupt her efforts is of great concern.

Xavier came at her with an air of arrogance and authority that many would find off-putting even without the circumstances that Emuna is in, and even without the content of his message. Add in the accusation of having purchased stolen items, add in the insinuation that she was "dirty' and deserving of being watched .. and you wind up with a conversation that had gone wrong the instant it began.

Being "Put on a list" is something that is very seldom "right". Even when that list is assembled by governmental and/or legal authorities with the benefit of deep research and evidence gathering, the errors that creep in and the damage it causes can be beyond ruinous. Lists assembled by private groups never turn out well. Without fail the list becomes a weapon used by people to take revenge on others for very personal reasons .. reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the original intent of the List.

In this case, as Xavier indicates, the Watch List is supposed to contain the names of those people that have purchased Animations from someone suspected of stealing from others. But there is no proof that anyone on that list DID purchase anything from the accused seller .. it is all based on assumption.

You must also ask what is the purpose of the list? To prevent those on the list from selling their products? That alone is wrong on its face. Never mind that its purpose is against ToS, it's just plain wrong to try and destroy or prevent someone from selling their products unless they are purposely selling property stolen from others. But there is no proof for ANYONE on that list that they are selling anything with stolen animations in it. It's quite possible, in fact more likely, that those on the list sell 100's of products that have nothing to do with anything stolen. And yet their ENTIRE business is put in jeopardy because someone suspected they MIGHT be selling something that MIGHT be stolen from someone else.

You have made quite a few posts defending Xavier's rights in protecting his works and property. No one here has ever disputed that he has that right. I myself avidly support the Intellectual Property rights of others .. as well as for myself. But Xavier does NOT have the right to accuse others that have been victimized, and Emuna is clearly a victim here. Xavier does not have the right to disrupt her business or speak ill of her ethics or morals simply because he suspects she may be in possession of something possibly stolen.

Xavier overstepped by a long shot. He had every right to notify Emuna that she may have made a purchase that included stolen goods, but he went way beyond that by calling her honesty into question with her inclusion on a "Watch List". He also went way over the line in the confrontational tone and manner in which he contacted her.

We all get "bent" when we discover we've been the victims of theft. I'm quite sure that we've all reacted in an overzealous and improper way at least once as well. But Xavier has refused to acknowledge his error, has refused to accept that he made the matter worse, and even now stands by his right to destroy the business of someone else simply because he suspects she MIGHT have something he thinks MAY have been stolen from him.

Nuria, for just one brief moment try and put yourself in that tender start-up time when every little thing could totally destroy all your hard work. Try for just a little while to see how being tagged with a black mark on some secret list could cause you emotional turmoil. Try to understand how exasperating it can be to realize you cannot get your name OFF that list no matter what you try .. and try to comprehend how frightening it can be to realize that every sale you make .. if you make any at all .. can turn into a customer relations nightmare because someone found your name on "That List".

If you have any capacity for compassion, if you can even begin to comprehend that not everyone is as secure and successful as you, and if you can for one moment summon up a tiny shred of human decency, I am sure you will come to see how absolutely demoralizing this whole ordeal has been for Emuna.

And all because Xavier threw a temper tantrum and started swinging at everyone around him.

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