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Hyeena

What is Gorean?

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I doubt that I speak only for myself when i say this, but here is, in my opinion, the big problem with gor. Let's think of it in terms of something we all know, like the movie "back to the Future." Most people are familiar with that.We'll compare a normal answer to the typical gorean answer.

If someone asked me what Back to the Future was all about, and I said, as if it was real life, "We have to make it up to 88 miles per hour to generate the 1.1 or whatever jiggawatts of power...." and then went into a long tirade about the space-time continuum, meanwhile making no mention of Marty McFly or Dr Emmit Brown, or his DeLorean, or, for that matter, anything that even happens in the movie, my listener would come out of the conversation with essentially no idea what Back to the Future is about, possibly knowing less about the movie than before they asked, but he/she would be fairly certain that I'm overdue for a trip to the Looney Bin. Or, if I answered, "If you want to know, watch all three movies." I'd come off as a pompous @$$ who's probably not worth trying to hold a conversation with. Furthermore, there is nothing in either answer to make the movies appealing. Now, imagine that every single person you asked gave these same answers. You would find yourself wondering what's wrong with everyone who ever watched this movie. This unfortunately is what gorean roleplayers do to themselves each and every time they talk about gor.

By contrast, if someone asked me what Back to the future was about, and i said, "I highly recomment you watch it. It's a trilogy of movies about time travel. See, this mad scientist guy named Emmet Brown falls off his toilet and dreams up a way to make a time machine out of a car. He's somehow friends with a teenage boy. Well, it's this whole series of misadventures, really. First the kid has to escape from terrorists, and he accidentally goes back to his parent's time. The rest of the first movie is him trying to get back to the future, like the title says. Well, everything he does in his parent's time ends up screwing up his future, and he has to fix it before he can return to his own time. I don't really want to spoil it by telling you everything in case you decide to watch it. They go into all kinds of detail about the space-time continuum. I can't really explain that part though. Not as good as the movie can. but if you watch them, you have to watch them in order. They don't make sense otherwise." Odds are, with that kind of answer, the listener is going to watch the movie, and be fairly certain that I don't write professional reviews :). this is the kind of answer you get from just about every other rp community you ask about., but absolutely never when it come to gor.

Now, I'm talking about a trilogy of movies that take about 4 and a half hours to watch. And tthere really is nothing to ask after you've decided whether to watch or not. Movie watching is, after all, a passive thing to do. In roleplay, however, players will always have questions. And some of the best roleplayers on our post apoc sim had some of the most questions. One needed to be reassured several times because he thought he was being a burden that his questions are welcome. Well now this character has quite accidentally found himself in a position of leadership. Because he is now in character giving the same answer to new players that he OOCly asked admins for, he is both ICly and OOCly becoming one of the most influential people. He is shaping the roleplay of the sim, and proving himself to be a great asset. By contrast, had we taken the same approach to questions and answers that the gorean communtiy does, and refuse to tell him anything about our theme, then his second question would have never been asked. He would not be the asset to our sim that he is now, if he'd be there at all.

The point here, is that the gorean community, with it's stubborn refusal to give a straightforward answer about setting, plot, and cast of characters, is doing itself a great disservice. this DOES tend to bias some great and dedicated rp'ers against the genre. and it IS the reason why so many of us, after so many failed attempts to satisfy our curiosity, consider gor rp areas unworthy of our time. If it takes monts, or years (or 9 pages into a thread) to be told so much as what the setting is, then how can we possibly expect better results when a question pops up during rp? Will we have to put our characters and storylines on hold for weeks or months digging through dictation about lifestyle and snotty answers to read a book? That's the expectatiion. And it is neither immersive, nor productive. But it gets so much worse.

What this thread clearly illustrates to us non-goreans who are watching the thread to try to learn something, is that while those who rp in gor are steadfast in keeping the overall plotline obscure, they wear the drama on their sleeve. they highlight the drama, bring it to the forefront. True, there is drama in all forms of rp. Get enough of any kind of people together, there's going to be a little bit of clashing. It's life. It happens. But in this thread there has been very little discussion about the world of gor itself. It has been dominated by posts that try to paint slavery as something that's perfectly okay and acceptable in real life (disturbing and unproductive.) discussion about how "real" gor is (again disturbing, while still giving no indication whatsoever about what gor actually is) and a lot of anger about how the rest of the community seems "intollerant of gor." Do we really need Scooby Doo and the gang to get on this case? It's not that hard to figure out. Just read through the thread again with an objective set of eyes.

This is sincere advice. I'm not saying it to hurt anybody's feelings. If you are a gorean roleplayer, particularly one who can't figure out why so many people are "against" you, then pretend you know nothing about gor, and  read through this whole thread, starting with the first post to here. Seriously, you are a roleplayer. So take a moment to play the role of somebody who just heard of gor for the first time. Someone who's never been on a gor sim. Maybe even someone who's relatively new to second life, if you want to take it that far. And when you reach the final post, ask yourself, "As somebody who is unfamiliar with gor, what has this thread taught me about the roleplay environment, and about those who choose to spend their time there?" And after you played the scene of being unfamiliar with gor and reading this post from beginning to end, without cheating, skimming, skipping ahead, or fading to black, then answer this. Now do you see what the problem is?

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Well I dont know, seems like its bash Leia day today, well fine, ima big girl, I can take it.

Sometimes I think that if I had posted "The sky is blue today" I would get 3 angry long rants in reply explaining to me what an idiot I am and that the sky really is green.

screw it, i'm done, find out for yourself, you seem to be the expert.

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Leia36 wrote:

Really? After 23 posts and freeking hours spent carefully constructing my replies I have had enough. That last sentence was pure frustration.  I have with others in this thread from both sides explained what Gor is over and over again...There is only one way you will ever truly know what gor is and that is too enter it. That's fact, anything else is someone else's spin on the subject.

For me Gor is this simple paragraph, it describes what I want to feel from my husband and ultimately what gor is
for me

"This is the woman" he said weakly. "What am I bid?" At this point the helmeted warrior began to descend the aisle. We watched him approach.

 

In moments he stood, too, on the block, facing the crowd. He struck the butt of his great spear on the heavy wood. "Kajira canjellne!" he said. "Slave girl challenge!" He turned to look at me, and I knelt. I could not speak. I feared I might faint.

 

He turned again to face the crowd.

"I will have this woman," he said. "For her I will stand against all Ar, and all the world."

 

Slave Girl of Gor

Its the same as driving a car or riding a horse or baking a cake, people can explain to you until they are blue in the face, unless you actualy experience it, you will never truly know what it is.

 

 

 

Yes really. If more posts had been right to the point and actually answering(like your above post here actually answers what gor is to you), people wouldn't still be arguing. I don't particularly care if your answer came from frustration or not, lol. That's not really the point. You wouldn't be frustrated if posters before you(those asking the question) weren't first frustrated themselves. So it's a double edged sword. Fresh cups of frustration for all.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and tell me how many of the first few pages actually have a direct answer to the question " What is Gorean". When people don't directly answer, people are bound to keep asking. That's what happened here, and it just snowballed from there, like it always does. People wouldn't have to keep asking the same question over and over if the answers given were less vague and more open. That's coming from me, someone who has asked this very question and gotten so many vague answers it would probably put most politicians to shame.

People don't ask the question to be jerks, they ask because they seek answers. The same as anyone else. There's just no need to treat people like they're either idiots for not knowing, or that they're somehow just trying to cause problems(just because some might, dare I say few, doesn't mean we're all like that). Just as there are some people in gor who actually will answer the questions, as we've come to find out, not all of them are people who will give vague responses and then tell you to figure it out because you frustrated them for asking in the first place, lol. I just can't imagine giving people who ask me questions about what I do in sl the runaround the way some people do(not just people of gor). It's not a concept that I'd ever put to use.

 

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Leia36 wrote:

Well I dont know, seems like its bash Leia day today, well fine, ima big girl, I can take it.

Sometimes I think that if I had posted "The sky is blue today" I would get 3 angry long rants in reply explaining to me what an idiot I am and that the sky really is green.

screw it, i'm done, find out for yourself, you seem to be the expert.

I wondered who the first flouncer would be.

Can't take criticism to the words we stick out there, it's best not to stick them out at all.

 

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Tari Landar wrote:

Go back to the beginning of this thread and tell me how many of the first few pages actually have a direct answer to the question " What is Gorean".

People don't ask the question to be jerks, they ask because they seek answers.

 I don't really know if I read the OP to this thread (if I did, it wasn't very interesting), I did however note that the OP hasn't returned for some time, as is typical. Generally if people have a question they want a direct answer to, they ask Google. Google gives answers in an immediate, non-interactive format that most people have figured out, and I think that's fine. Forums are something else entirely, and I'm glad for the many pages of various discussions surrounding Gor that have taken place in this thread. I don't think much has been resolved, but again that is typical for forums in general. I don't think anyone in this thread owes the OP a direct answer, because the participants are just SL users who are out there, living their second lives.

I'd have been significantly less interested in this thread if it had just been the same old definitions for Gor that one can find by using search engines, I'm glad those with real experience took part and gave their points of view. I'm glad for the thoughtful explanations, the personal opinions, the contrasting views and the vagueries of what Gor is, can be, should be, could be and might be. I'm glad for the lolcats and Youtubes, and I'm glad Leia and others gave their personal thoughts and experiences, regardless of how much I personally agree with any of them.

I didn't come here looking for, or expecting, authoritative or direct answers.

I've enjoyed the majority of this thread, but I'm fairly sure it's out of useful content now. So thanks, everyone who contributed. 

Enjoy yourselves.

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Well of course no one is "owed" a direct answer, to anything. And odds are you could ask just about any question and get plenty of indirect and vague answers. That doesn't mean the people offering those answers ought to be getting angry at the people asking for clarity on the subject. Or acting as if anyone that IS looking for a more direct answer is somehow doing something wrong. Which is how a lot of the posts read, to me anyway, I certainly can't and won't speak for others on what they see. But I do see some people who participate in gorean rp who seem to be coming across as if they're almost offended that folks are even asking what gorean is. Almost as if we should all know, like they do. But, we can't know if we don't ask. I guess some just think those actually in it, with a vested personal interest would be the best folks to ask. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Just as I wouldn't ask a nascar driver who's never stepped foot in an airplane what it's like to fly a Boeing 757, I probably wouldn't ask someone with absolutely no experience what Gor is like. Not because they wouldn't give me an answer, they very well may. But how useful will it be? Then again, you don't know until you ask. So I'm glad both those who rp in gor and those who do not have answered, and asked. Whether vague or indrect, it's an interesting thread, that's for sure. I don't think the OP not coming back to chime in really has anything to do with, anything, lol. People do that all the time :)

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How to ride a horse, first post on google.  in thirteen clear steps.  Same with how to bake a cake, only 12 steps.  Both nicely laid out and clear, with helpful illustrations.

how to roleplay in gor in second life.  Leads to several forum threads, mostly the gor-sl.com.  Main page and toolbar has nothing in any way referring to new players.  Ok, lets look through forums, no new player forums, lets check general.  Ok, roleplay 101 and how to be an observer... still nothing at all about setting.  One of the google links to a thread that talks about a site (targaryen.eu) that seems very promising.  Hmm.. network error, guess that's down.  Ok lets start a thread on the second life forums 'what is gorean', add some notes about myself to give context.  check back in a couple of hours, oh hey a reply to a wiki, I'll open that in a new tab, and another reply....what the hell?  this isn't just RP, its mixing real life in?  Right, moving on.

There is a difference between them.  Just because one cannot get the same feeling from reading how to bake a cake does not mean they don't get a pretty good idea on the setting and mechanics to do these things so they feel prepared to go ahead and do them.  That is not the case with Gorean RP.  The information isn't out there, its purposefully obscure.  And people usually give a half-assed elitist answer like 'you need to see it for yourself' or 'go read the books', sometimes accompanied by a completely out of context quote that is if anything more confusing.

Most RP communities try to give people access to the setting.  It is helpful for everyone new and old, if players understand the world better.  Gor is an exception, and from the outside looking in, its just weird.  I get that you will have a lot more to learn when you get to actually playing, that's the same with all RP settings. But how would you even know what sort of character is available to step in to?  Its certainly not easily available information.

23 posts of carefully constructed replies does not mean that you are right, or that we are all going to agree with you.  Discussion can be a long process, and I think that I have learned something in reading and responding to this thread.  I have been, I like to think anyhow, a fairly decent and fair poster.  I honestly don't care a whole lot one way or the other about Gor.  When I was new, and the tidbits of the them interested me, I tried to learn more, hit this same brick wall, and started to look for more forthcoming options, which I have since found.  I am not saying that I might not try to look back into gor at some point, but that for now, its no longer something I have time for.  Most of the reason I have posted in this thread is because this sort of 'looked into it, crazy drama ensued, left to look elsewhere' tale is more common than you think. Having gone through it, and since then having been around the block a bit, I wanted to give some insight into why that was how it went for me.  I recall you talking about another forum you were in (or maybe it was eforou, I don't recall, it was earlier in the thread), and thought maybe you could at least take a little bit of insight into why it is hard to get started in gor, and why a lot of people have a bad opinion on it.

I swear, Gor, as a community, needs to take something like the page 9 post and slap it at the top of every forum with a sticky.  There is nothing wrong with the lifestylers, but that is crap that you chat about once they have at least figured out the basics of gor, or you will just scare interested new people away.

Feel free to leave because you are no longer interested in the discussion, but don't do it under the impression that there weren't decent people in the thread having fair discourse.

 

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Gor is about women being slaves to men?

I cannot imagine any redeeming quality in that.

This is pretty much the sum total of all that is worth looking at in the discussion.

A level of misogyny that makes the Taliban look like 'Feminazis'... is not something worth celebration.

 


Leia36 wrote:

What I don't understand are the replies to the OP. He was clearly asking for information, which was explained to him by myself and others. There really is no need to post beyond that. Your views expressed a clear misunderstanding of the genre and the people within it. 

I am pretty certain I have a clear misunderstanding of the Taliban. I am even more sure I have a clear misunderstanding of tribal villages in Pakistan that consider gang-rape by the tribunal elders a valid sentence when a girl's brother commits a crime...

Some things... don't need to be more understood.

 While the GOP has now shown us that there is a notable body of people even in the USA that belief rape is the will of god and sometimes legitimate - this is not a world view I am willing to tolerate.

 

Fantacizing about some things, in a way that glamorizes them, is very much a form of making a meme out of them - of normalizing a form of thinking. Fiction has long been used to promote certain ideals. And in this case, the author of Got appears to be on record as feeling this kind of view of women is something to promote.

 

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I will come back to answer your post, You clearly have no clue about Gor or M/s and you seem to have missed all the points that both sides have made in this thread,

All this happens between 2 or more adults behind closed doors and with full consent. As long as no laws are broken it really is none of your business.

Trying to compare Gorean roleplayers with the taliban is laughable, go back to page 1 of this thread and actually READ it.

By your statements then people in urban RP who RP some pretty far out stuff should also be denied there SL, while we are at it, lets stop SL and everything that's not strictly real..oh wait, wouldn't that make us as bad as the taliban?

ETA

I wouldn't come and defecate on your front step, its generally not seen as a civilized act, so why did you come poop on mine? Live your own SL, do whatever you want as long as you don't break ToS, who has ANY right to stop you?

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Nobody owes a direct answer... hmm, interesting. Just as nobody owes respect. From the perspective of principle, both statements are correct. From the perspective of practicality, one begets the other. quid pro quo. tit for tat.  Just look in this thread how eforou gave the most direct answer, and i responded in my future posts basically by asking, "Why can't more goreans be like you?" Eforou has gained my respect.

But, since others in the gor community then decided to show resentment toward Eforou, that really wasn't a good trade-off, was it? It seems like the reaction was, "GASP! You talked about the priest king super bug peoples to an outsider! How dare you!" Which was quickly followed by posts which showed a lot of frustration about being sooo misunderstood.

One of the biggest truths in life is that when no amount of searching reveals the facts, human nature is to fill in the blanks with opinion, conjecture, hypothesis, theory.... which ever word you choose to use. So, while an answer may not be "owed" the refusal to provide one leaves goreans wide open to speculation. And the conclusioins drawn by those who are forced to speculate are never favorable. When the expression of such unfavorable opinions becomes a sore point for someone in the gor community, their stubborn insistance on continuing to obfuscate exactly what it is that they are all about becomes very perplexing. In this light, while willingness to give a direct answer isn't something that goreans owe to people like me or the original poster, is it not something they owe themselves?

Now, the thread which started as one SIMPLE question has me asking several others. Why is the setting so secret? Why are the character types so secret? Why is the drama NOT so secret? What the hell did that blond girl in the video mean by kajera, and why didn't a single gorean mention it if it's an important enough aspect of gor to be in the video? why is it taboo for a gorean to tell anyone else in sl that in a novel people are ruled by religous cockroaches? Are cockroaches the right kind of bug? Maybe they're bees. I don't know. Nobody told me. why is it so insulting for me to ask? In what percieved way have I slighted them?

99% of the time when someone asks about something you're interested in, they are asking to gain insight. However, 99% of the gorean response seems to be to take the question as an insult or as an opportunity to give insult. This is not the original intent, but so many of he answers are insult worthy. It's reminiscent of that high school goth/emo clique that used to (I say used to for those of us who are old enough to have full rights according to TOS) Basically shun the rest of the students, then spend countless hours complaining that it is they who are being shunned. I am not saying this to be insulting. Merely to illustrate why so many are.

So what answer has this thread given to the question, "What is gor?" What education about it have I, and everyone else gotten? What will my answer be next time I'm the one who gets asked (and i will be, since apparently anyone with a tribal look gets mistaken for a gorean.) vs. what it was, and what it could have been?

My answer USED to be, "I dunno. Every time I ask, I either get rudely told to read a book, or that it's something sexual. But I got this bow and arrow from a gor store, and i really can't figure out what they need one of these for if it's all about sex."

A direct answer about what it is COULD have changed that answer into, well, that direct answer, followed by "It's not really my thing, with the emphasis on slavery and all, but there are a lot of people who enjoy it." and a link to this thread.

The answer that the goreans here DID provide me is "Gor is a form of rp made up of people who take it to such an extreme that I really can't promise they know it's rp. If you want any kind of clue about the setting or what kind of characters are involved, consider it like a college course. It'll probably take you less time to read a whole damn series of books about it than to convince one of these people to answer a simple question. They'll wax poetic about how "real" the concepts and philosophies presented in these science fiction books are, but they'll gloss over what these philosophies entail only slightly less than they'll gloss over setting and characters.Something about slavery being a way of life that applies to real life, instead of just roleplay. And now for the punchline. They seem to actually, despite all this, resent the fact that they are soooo misunderstood."

This is the conclusion that I came to after watching this thread, based solely on the answers that the roleplayers of gor have provided. It is a composite of he answers you gave. Again, I'm not saying any of this to poke fun at you. I'm saying this because this is truly what gorean's make the rest of the roleplay community think about them. The only person who offered any kind of insight into what the books contain, or the roleplay that is based on them, is Eforou. Wait. I take that back. Someone who clearly feels very anti-gor put up a video that taught me there is something called a kajera in gor. I assume that is some sort of character? But yet in 11 pages, 23 posts by a single gorean who considers her answers to be "carefully crafted" this kajera thing was not mentioned once. How is it not obvious that this is he source of the ignorance shown to the gor community by the rest of the roleplay community? We are forced to draw our own conclusions with what little we've been given.

Obfuscation breeds ignorance. Clarity breeds understanding. If our ignorance bothers you, educate us.If you won't educate us, then accept our ignorance. Goreans, you are the ones who have and control the information on this subject. Opinions can only be based on what you share.

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Leia36 wrote:

Trying to compare Gorean roleplayers with the taliban is laughable, go back to page 1 of this thread and actually READ it.

By your statements then people in urban RP who RP some pretty far out stuff should also be denied there SL, while we are at it, lets stop SL and everything that's not strictly real..oh wait, wouldn't that make us as bad as the taliban?

ETA

I wouldn't come and defecate on your front step, its generally not seen as a civilized act, so why did you come poop on mine? Live your own SL, do whatever you want as long as you don't break ToS, who has ANY right to stop you?

It is the perfect analogy. You are glamorizing the Taliban. The Gorean philosophy and the Taliban - have the same role for women.

Absolute evil is just that. Glamorizing it in fiction does not cleanse it of taint. You are depicting absolute evil as if it was something to be upheld.

You are not keeping it behind closed doors, you're preaching it as a philosophy others should ascribe to. Your profit, this author, goes about suggesting it is a model for how a perfect society would be. He desires to be a vanguard of bringing the Taliban's way ot life to the west.

You yourself throughout this thread show an inability to distinguish between the roleplay and real life, over and over.

 

I could sit here and talk about how 'cool' it would be to -PLAY- a Sith lord in Star Wars, or a Borg in Star Trek, or even how it might be fascinating to be the actor playing an SS guard in a WWII movie - and I could do it all without getting confused about whether or not I really am that person...

- People can tell the story of absolute evil without glamorizing it.

But Goreans do not seem to be able to make this distinction.

 

Until they changed the ToS itself, Goreans were in your face over this. Pushing their disdain of women across the grid - outside of Gorean RP zones, outside of the RP. The ToS has thrown them all to adult land, and by that they've now learned to contrain their brand of hate to their own sims. But that is not their natural inclination.

 

As a descendant of enslaved people, with ethnic kin who are facing genocide as we speak, and who has met real world escaped and current slaves - and been powerless to help them...

- There is nothing glamorous in slavery. It is the darkest form of evil.

 

And as I noted above. It is one thing to tell the tale of a villain, and of evil, for roleplay, acting, or a story. That is a vital thing to do in advancing humankind away from evil.

It is a very different thing to glamorize and aspire to it, to promote it as a valid lifestyle, and then to oneself get confused about where the RP ends and RL begins.

 QUITE A FEW of my friends are in the BDSM and D/S lifestyles (not being part of it, I know there's a difference in those two terms but it escapes me).

That community is very well known for the relationship being a partnership, for their being 'terms' and safe words and an exchange between both - its not a slave bond. I don't get it and find it distasteful, but I can see that it is not slavery.

Almost none of the people in those communities get confused over this, over the limits and over where it ends or begins. When in SL as the RP, very few get confused over where the RP ends and RL or nonRP-SL begins.

Those few who do get confused, get "educated" by the community, corrected, or sent packing.

They don't get embraced and glamorized.

Goreans don't seem to understand the boundaries... and in fact seem to desire to push their philosophy outside of their own community and onto the world (or at least the founding prophet does, and classifies it as a philosophy and lifestyle). You yourself do this throughout the thread - blurring the line between RP and RL in calling it a lifestyle.

Thats... dangerous. Its not a partnership or agreement or thing with safewords when you lose sight of the controls, it becomes an absolute evil.

 

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Leia36 wrote:
Trying to compare Gorean roleplayers with the taliban is laughable, go back to page 1 of this thread and actually READ it.
By your statements then people in urban RP who RP some pretty far out stuff should also be denied there SL, while we are at it, lets stop SL and everything that's not strictly real..oh wait, wouldn't that make us as bad as the taliban?

ETA
I wouldn't come and defecate on your front step, its generally not seen as a civilized act, so why did you come poop on mine? Live your own SL, do whatever you want as long as you don't break ToS, who has ANY right to stop you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the perfect analogy. You are glamorizing the Taliban. The Gorean philosophy and the Taliban - have the same role for women.

Gor is fictional, the Taliban are real.
I never glamorised anything, the only post that comes close was a very personal one that dealt with my partner, the rest from both sides was informative, you are derailing this thread, its about what Gor is, not why Gor sucks in your opinion.
The roles of women are different, The taliban seek to deny women their inherent sexuality, Goreans celebrate it.
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Absolute evil is just that. Glamorizing it in fiction does not cleanse it of taint. You are depicting absolute evil as if it was something to be upheld.


Absolute evil is a human condition, it was here way before gor and will be here when gor is long forgotten. Perspective please.
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You are not keeping it behind closed doors, you're preaching it as a philosophy others should ascribe to. Your profit, this author, goes about suggesting it is a model for how a perfect society would be. He desires to be a vanguard of bringing the Taliban's way ot life to the west.


Preaching? hardly..Many times I have said it not for everyone, many times I have said to be careful
I don't ascribe to gor, I use some of it in my SL to enhance my connection with my partner

He is NOT my profit, he is an old man that wrote a few BS books is all.

He suggests nothing of the sort, you are projecting

His ideas are from a time when the taliban where probably a bunch of 10 year olds in the mountains of afghanistan, again perspective again projecting.

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You yourself throughout this thread show an inability to distinguish between the roleplay and real life, over and over.
 I know the difference, you are cherry picking from other peoples arguments without considering my answers previously stated.
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I could sit here and talk about how 'cool' it would be to -PLAY- a Sith lord in Star Wars, or a Borg in Star Trek, or even how it might be fascinating to be the actor playing an SS guard in a WWII movie - and I could do it all without getting confused about whether or not I really am that person...


Could you? really?..You do realise that actors spend months researching their characters and 'living' as they did in order to better portray the role.
You are the one confused, in the points before you are saying we are the taliban, now you acknowledge the IC/OOC separation of Gor RP..., you are contradicting yourself


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- People can tell the story of absolute evil without glamorizing it.

Oh yes that's why child pornography isn't banned everywhere people draw breath
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But Goreans do not seem to be able to make this distinction.

Goreans are just people, by your judgement standards everyone is evil everywhere
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Until they changed the ToS itself, Goreans were in your face over this. Pushing their disdain of women across the grid - outside of Gorean RP zones, outside of the RP. The ToS has thrown them all to adult land, and by that they've now learned to contrain their brand of hate to their own sims. But that is not their natural inclination.


The change was not solely directed at Gor, to attribute it as such is pure BS
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As a descendant of enslaved people, with ethnic kin who are facing genocide as we speak, and who has met real world escaped and current slaves - and been powerless to help them...

I would almost put a First world problems meme in here, If you feel that passionately about it why aren't you at the coal face as it were?

---------------------------------------------------------------
- There is nothing glamorous in slavery. It is the darkest form of evil.


Refer to your own posts about this, everything in Gor SL or RL is consensual here on planet earth
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And as I noted above. It is one thing to tell the tale of a villain, and of evil, for roleplay, acting, or a story. That is a vital thing to do in advancing humankind away from evil.
It is a very different thing to glamorize and aspire to it, to promote it as a valid lifestyle, and then to oneself get confused about where the RP ends and RL begins.


Your summation here stinks of ignorance, Gor is a fictional group of cultures, the thinking behind it is entirely consensual, clearly you need to reread your own posts
Again you are cherry picking others arguments in a very different battle, I have answered already.
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 QUITE A FEW of my friends are in the BDSM and D/S lifestyles (not being part of it, I know there's a difference in those two terms but it escapes me).


That needs its own thread to be fair.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That community is very well known for the relationship being a partnership, for their being 'terms' and safe words and an exchange between both - its not a slave bond. I don't get it and find it distasteful, but I can see that it is not slavery.


Neither involves true slavery, its consensual
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Almost none of the people in those communities get confused over this, over the limits and over where it ends or begins. When in SL as the RP, very few get confused over where the RP ends and RL or nonRP-SL begins.


Really? well, I can give you notecards full of stories about those problems, where humans and love are concerned, pain and hurting abounds.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those few who do get confused, get "educated" by the community, corrected, or sent packing.


No, still here, still living my life my way, so are my friends and acquaintances, projecting again...word of advice, its a big planet, you are but a small part of it.
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They don't get embraced and glamorized.
Goreans don't seem to understand the boundaries... and in fact seem to desire to push their philosophy outside of their own community and onto the world (or at least the founding prophet does, and classifies it as a philosophy and lifestyle). You yourself do this throughout the thread - blurring the line between RP and RL in calling it a lifestyle.


So there is a church of Gor?
I use elements of it in my RL to connect with my partner, any business of yours? not at all. in fact I had to be pushed hard before I mentioned it, I was certainly not preaching it.
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Thats... dangerous. Its not a partnership or agreement or thing with safewords when you lose sight of the controls, it becomes an absolute evil.


You are calling a bunch of pixels on your screen 'absolute evil' OMG how quaint, also first world problems again, you really need to open your eyes
Next time clean up your own poop, I have better things to do on a Saturday night.

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Nothing in this whole thread can be called informative. Not in the context that the question was asked. It does make you raise a single eyebrow (not both) when the response from the people in the gorean community is to determine that someone who is attacking their lifestyle is important to respond to, while someone who is attacking their lack of answers is not.

Because this question was posed in a roleplay forum, it an be assumed that it was asked by someone who was considering becoming a gorean noob. A pre-noob! Personally, I like noobs. I used to be one, as did everyone on this board.So let's think about the many, many ways that this thread is abusive to noobs, or would have been to our noob selves back when we were first learning.

Starting to roleplay, which is something that most peple who ask the question that started this thread, happens in steps, in a logical order.

Step 1. "What kind of setting do i want to rp in?" Page 9 finaly taught us that Gor is a planet ruled by bug people. And gives some background into the general setting. If that happened 8 pages earlier, maybe we could focus on the fictional world of gor, and learn more.

Step 2. "Okay, this setting might be fun. I don't know. I want to try. Now, who should my character be..." This thread still isn't there. Page 12, and still NOTHING to tell the potential beginner what kind of characters exist in gor to pick from! until someone in this thread explains THIS, they haven't explained ANYTHING!

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solstyse wrote:

Step 2. "Okay, this setting might be fun. I don't know. I want to try. Now, who should my character be..." This thread still isn't there.
Page 12, and still NOTHING to tell the potential beginner what kind of characters exist in gor to pick from!
until someone in this thread explains THIS, they haven't explained ANYTHING!

 

Ok, let me say this first - I do not even consider myself a gorean role player. I have not played on a gorean sim in quite some time. I have have played here and there in sl gor for a while - but I become bored with it and moved on to other things. But I will try to give a quick overview of roles anway.

Gor has many different cultures - so deciding wich culture if for you would be the first step. Torvaldsland is in the north and has no castes. They are a bit rough around the edges and believe in their own god or gods - and  do not believe the priest kings exist. They are a rural people but also - just like Vikings - use their ships to sail to all kinds of places to plunder and such things. The men of Torvaldsland are big and tall - they are farmers and fighters and so on. The free women of Torvaldsland do not wear veils and have more freedom then the women in the south. One can also play a female slave there - they are called bonds and are usually blond, have big breasts and work hard on the farms and stuff. Male slaves are thralls and of course - they work even harder.

 

In many of the southern cultures - southern meaning not Torvaldsland - there is a caste system. A player should decide which caste he or she is interested in because that determines a big part of the role. There are high castes - scribes, physicians, warriors, builders. And low castes - merchants, blacksmith, slavers, peasants, and so on. People of high caste believe themselves far above the low caste folk. Scribes can work in the cylinders of the city on - well - write some stuff. They can also work for businesses - anything to do with "scribing.' They could also be historians - and so on. Physicians practice medicine - a very highly developed medicine. They can just work for themselves - or for a slave house for example - anything to do with medicine. Warrior is self explanitory - and builders too.

The low castes are fun to play also. Slavers - self explanitory also in a way. They might have a slave house where slaves are trained generally and in special skills - dancing for example. They buy and sell slaves - often they also take contracts where they will basically steal a free woman and then sell her in another city. Peasants often live in little villages - their houses are round and they are, well...peasants. There is plenty of good rp to be had as a peasant, actually - they do not have to stay in their little villages but can come to the market in the city to sell their wares and so on.

The basic decision one has to make is if they want to play...

A free man

A free woman

A female slave

A male slave

Free men, of course, have the most freedom in what they do IC. But they are also limited by the society they live in - it is a caste system and certain things are expected of them. If they do not live up to those it could be very problematic - expect IC consequences.

Free women are caste members - they often do caste work, have families and so on. But they are also under the rule of male family members. Often free companionship is arranged for them. But others choose their own free companion also. Free women have to be very careful to not behave as a slave - that can get them enslaved faster then anything else. So, no public flirting, not fishing for compliments and so on. FW would usually wear veils to make sure they do not catch the eye of some men who might want to fancy them his slave. As said before - slavers could be hired to kidnap such a woman and carry her off to some other city where the law does not protect her. Free women can have male slaves, even male pleasure slaves - but it does not give her the same fulfillment a female slave gives a gorean man, of course.

Female slaves - there are all kinds of female slaves. The gorean word for slave is kajira. Kajira might work in taverns, they are dancers, work in households where they do the cooking and cleaning and stuff. They might work as trainers for other slaves in slave houses - anything anyone can imagine. Female slaves - once they accepted their slavery are usually happy. They are usually not locked up - but have a lot of freedom - they have free time where they meet with friends, they go to the market and so on and so forth.

Male slaves who are happy being a slave are seen as something unnatural in gor. But "silk slaves" did exist and they usually belonged to women of high caste. Men were also enslaved during war and as punishment. They were usually worked hard in mines and such.

 

Norman describes a very complex world - so for new players, after they have a general overview, it would  make sense to decide on a culture and on a role - and then ask more specific questions.

My experiences in gor were mostly positive. It is important to find the right sim to play on. Reading the rules gives on a good idea about what to expect. There are quite a few places where a pretty strong IC and OOC mix still exists. I stay away from those like they are the plague. But there are also quite a few places where the separation is as strong as in any other rp sim in sl gor.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

While the GOP has now shown us that there is a notable body of people even in the USA that belief rape is the will of god and sometimes legitimate - this is not a world view I am willing to tolerate.

 

 

Are you on crack? Did you miss the tirade of attacks when Richard Murdock made his assinine statements? From BOTH  political parties? 

 


Fantasizing about some things, in a way that glamorizes them, is very much a form of making a meme out of them - of normalizing a form of thinking. Fiction has long been used to promote certain ideals. And in this case, the author of Got appears to be on record as feeling this kind of view of women is something to promote.

 

 

Hmm... So you are saying that fantasies are a bad thing? What two consenting adults do with each other for enjoyment is their own business. If my wife wants me to RP making her my slave, what business is it of anyone else? If you don't like a certain RP, DON'T VISIT THOSE SIMS!! And don't tell me they throw it in your face at every store. 99% of stores in SL have a "no slave/ nudity" policy.

Quick question for you though... Would it be ok for a Vampire to walk around with a collared Lycan?

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Hyeena wrote:

I have been RPing in Dead End, a modern day sim which treads the normal boundaries: city out of control, police ineffective, etc. 

 

I am considering finding a change of pace, and medieval looks my style. However, not sure what the difference is between Gorean and Medieval. Is there one? What kind of characters are there in Gorean RP? Any tips, explanations, etc. would be much appreciated
:)

 

Also, side question, are their any prehistoric RP sims?

My only advise on whether or not to "go gorean" is for you to read a few of the books and make that decision for your self. If you are looking fro medieval sims I would suggest doing a search for them.

a few sites to help you.

the gorean cave

Gorean101

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Hmm... So you are saying that fantasies are a bad thing? What two consenting adults do with each other for enjoyment is their own business. If my wife wants me to RP making her my slave, what business is it of anyone else? If you don't like a certain RP, DON'T VISIT THOSE SIMS!! And don't tell me they throw it in your face at every store. 99% of stores in SL have a "no slave/ nudity" policy.

Quick question for you though... Would it be ok for a Vampire to walk around with a collared Lycan?

I agree with you. Pussycat obviously does not understand the difference between two consenting adults playing out a fantasy - and reality.

People enjoy different kinks - others often do not understand why, but it is what it is. All those things fit somehow under the big bdsm umbrella - and the safe, sane and consesual rules should apply to all those things. In sl - everything is consensual by the very nature of sl.

I usually tell people like Pussycat that playing out gor is not different then playing out any other fantasy...in rl and in sl.

People like to play out gettting raped - they still believe real rape is a horrible crime.

People like to play out getting spanked - they still believe physical punishment is wrong.

People like to play out getting slapped around by a partner and forced to do things - they still believe domestic violence is a crime and very wrong.

It is all just fantasies and it is always perfectly consensual! The comparison with real life situations - that are NOT consensual - is NOT a valid one.

Now - having said all that. I do believe some gorean role players played a part in getting such a bad reputation in sl. They left their life styler sims - where they are always in character (which is perfectly fine because people do not have to go there) and visit the rest of sl - and they still claim they are always in character. They address women in certain ways they do not want to be addressed and so on. I know that is a small minority - but it has happend and probably still does happen. That is an absolute NONO! Only consenting adults should be involved in any of those fantasies. So the always IC gorean guy who addresses some random woman OOC in a disrepecful manner is a huge problem  - and so are the women who claim they are always slaves and always IC - and they show up half naked and kneeling - and addressing people in this manner in non gorean places. They obvioiusly do not understand that it is insulting to involve non consenting adults in their fantasy. It pisses people off - and rightfully so.

 

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Efurou,

Thanks again for another informative answer. Now if someone still wants to start rping in gor, like the OP did, they at least know the basicas of who and where they will be. Unfortunately, I consider the first paragraph of your post to be the final nail in Gor's coffin.

You wrote:

Ok, let me say this first - I do not even consider myself a gorean role player. I have not played on a gorean sim in quite some time. I have have played here and there in sl gor for a while - but I become bored with it and moved on to other things. But I will try to give a quick overview of roles anway.


The problem is that since you alone have the distinction of being willing to answer questions and help people understand what it is, (which really should be the rule, not the exception) what you have left behind is basically the rest of this thread. Every form of rp needs plenty of people who will give the kind of answers that you do.  But apparently without you, gor has none.

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Why are you repeating yourself here?..Move along, you've made your point repeatedly, the thread is dead, Yesterday's news.  Seriously, links to this thread are posted on a few Gor websites, only one person besides myself has answered Neph. The majority of them probably feel the same as Carter does, only one way to really find out, go see for yourself.

Oh yes, if you are the last to leave, switch off the lights will you?

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So, first, being the only person willing to answer the question that started this thread is somehow a sign of hatred toward you. And now, a compliment to the person who answered, telling them that you are glad to have gotten an answer and they are an exceptional person for giving it is somehow a bad thing?

It seems taht you have a really, really twisted sense of morals.

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solstyse wrote:

 they are an exceptional person for giving it is somehow a bad thing?

It seems taht you have a really, really twisted sense of morals.

 

Exceptional? REALLY!? Because someone answered a silly question on a silly forum thread about make believe to your satisfaction she is Exceptional? Do me a favor

hmm and keep your projections, you know next to nothing about me

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and so. after 121 posts, most of which are nothing more than wheter or not a set of fantasy books set in a fictional land are sutible reading material, i am done. I have read every Gorean thread made. Each and every one eventualy breaks down to several people bickering.

By the books vs non

RP vs Lifestyler

Gorean vs feminazis

Women haters vs feminazis

By the books vs Disney gor

Non Goreans RPers vs Goreans

Can we please just stop bickering? Answer the question without adding your own PC crap.

If you really want to snipe at each other, use knives. It willl be more entertaining to the rest of us.

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Yeah, but it's inherent in the subject matter, isn't in?  Any thread about Gor will inevitably go in only one direction, same as threads about Bloodlines or child avatars.  

Should child vampires be allowed on Gor sims, do you think?

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Yeah, but it's inherent in the subject matter, isn't in?  Any thread about Gor will inevitably go in only one direction, same as threads about Bloodlines or child avatars.  

Should child vampires be allowed on Gor sims, do you think?

That would depend on the sim rules. BTB sims, no. Others, possibly.

Is it wrong that i am tired of the sniping?

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Innula Zenovka wrote:

Yeah, but it's inherent in the subject matter, isn't in?  Any thread about Gor will inevitably go in only one direction, same as threads about Bloodlines or child avatars.  

Should child vampires be allowed on Gor sims, do you think?

That would depend on the sim rules. BTB sims, no. Others, possibly.

Is it wrong that i am tired of the sniping?

 

No, I am also tired of it Drake, thread just gets repetitive, what gets my goat is self congratulation however thinly it is disguised. That's why I keep tying to end it, but every time, come morning, its back. kinda like groundhog day

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