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Hyeena

What is Gorean?

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Leia36 wrote:

What I don't like are people who use IC consequences for OOC conflicts, I have written about M & B,. To me and the majority of my friends what B did is wrong. There were so many things he could have done, yet he chose to hurt her IC in a way he knew would cause her the most grief in RL.

 

Doing that means he is an ass and does not know what role play is. On the other hand - the woman should have said the first time he pulled that **bleep**, "Ahm, no.....we are not doing that." When she decided to react IC she validated the rp in a way. I am a big big believer of really given players very good information about what rp is, how it works, and what rights they have. The individual then still has to stand up for him- or herself and say, "No!" when they feel it is going in a direction that is not good for them.

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This has all been very interesting and gives someone a broad perspective of what GOR is and how it works. I guess, not being a GOR RPer, it is a very strict society and there are specific rules in place that you would need to follow if you wish to play there. I am sure that someone mentioned going to some of the GOR hubs and just asking around. That would help you decide whether to play or not.

This whole story of your sister and her former Master brings up the great topic of RL manipulation through SL. Your sister, if I'm reading this correctly, fell head over heels for this piece of crap and he treated her terribly. No matter what form of RP you engage in, this is WRONG! If someone tells you something OOC, you need to respect that. I am slightly embarrassed to say that some of my slaves have asked me to dominate them in RL..along with Skype and such. If this is put in place, like it apparently was with your sister, one needs to be VERY careful how things are handled and the line between IC and OOC can become easily blurred. I hope that I do a good job and if I suggest something that is beyond their RL limits, they will tell me and I NEVER push. I am sorry that your sister had that happen to her and you should find her former Master and string him up by his balls...if he has any.

*sighs*

My apologies..I guess I forgot to take my meds this morning....

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Yes Tex, it was very wrong, she was very much in love and would bend over backwards to accommodate him, He really took her apart and threw the rest in the trash. But she is a strong woman and got it back together and is currently looking for a new Master. As for him, I am far less interested, he deserves what he gets and as long as he leaves her alone I am happy. Feel sorry for whoever kneels to him though, she is in for a very bumpy ride.

Yes well, that's natural concerning RL, I know from my own experience and from M's just what a fine line it is. But each couple is different and what works for me might not work for you and yours.

*smiles, its a natural reaction, and really it was the betrayal that hurt, the rest is just pixels.

:)

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One of the things that may make it difficult to define Gor on SL is the communal nature of the game. It was not created by a corporation. No individual made up the rules, not even John Norman. The rules evolved from the pure text Gorean RP that developed in HTML chatrooms prior to the advent of Second Life, but they were not set in stone and they have evolved a great deal, largely because, and this is the other thing that makes it difficult, people come to SL Gor from all over the place. It's not just a bunch of maledom/femsub types getting their freak on. (There are plenty of places in SL designed specifically for that.) There are hadcore lifestylers who imagine that they are BEING Goreans in SL just as they act Gorean in RL to the extent they can and see no difference between IC and OOC, there are roleplayers of various stripes who feel it's a fun,sexy adult game and have no interest in OOC relationships (my personal faction) and nothing more, and there are World of Warcraft types who enjoy raiding and the sexy slavegirl eye candy but are not all that interested in sexual RP, and even slavegirls who don't want to do sexual RP, and probably plenty of others.


The reason you have conventions like "fade to black" for sex scenes and a huge schism between by the book and Gor Evolved players is that they have EVOLVED to handle the different interests of the different players. Gor is truly a microcosm, everything you could expect in a virtual world. It's hard to define for that reason.

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So, after reading and keeping up on on this thread as it got silly long, I can see a few things as an observer.  I am not all that emotionally invested in the thread, just had some time to kill and curiosity.  Take this with a caveat that what little poking around I have done with Gorean RP has been from a curious outsider who is honestly a little afraid to try it out due to some of the points I am about to make.

 

First point.  Efurou's post on page 9 is a great summation of the world mechanically.  Information like that should be easier to find.  I have definitely noticed a much greater feel of ' you should know / go read the books' when trying to look into information about Gor.  Other RP sims try much harder to summarize their setting or location in notecard or website to help encourage new people to learn the material.  I got the exact opposite feel when I tried to look into gor.  It also doesnt help that, even if the setting is good, every exerpt of the books I have seen posted has made me cringe with the terrible prose.  I am honestly both curious and afraid to try reading the things.

 

Second point.  Gor RP seems to contain a lot more people with issues separating between RL and SL than other RP I have played in.  I think the idea of 'lifestylers' and the like really adds a layer that hurts the RP and integrity of the setting. Most RP sims, the line between IC and OOC is very straightforward.  In Gor I see a lot of things explained as a real philosophy and people feeling like they are their characters.  The post on page one by Leia36 is a good example of the sort of thing that is often pushed at new players with more emphasis than world setting.  

 

ThIrd point.  The lack of separation from point 2, combined with the large player base of Gor causes a significant amount more drama than you see in most other RP sims I have been in.  Drama stands out.  Even if there is a lot of very good RP as well, people outside looking in see the drama.  This thread talks about a number of very drama-filled stories, but glosses over those without such drama for example.

 

Fourth point.  Some Goreans can be very elitist.  While this thread has had some moments, its more tame than some I have seen.  This is certainly a minority, but there are a few Gorean RPers that feel the larger playerbase of Gor RP means that it is clearly superior, and that any interaction with them should be a privilege, which does not instill good will from those looking into the genre. Look into the 'by the book' people for some examples of this attitude.

 

Fifth point. This is more conjecture on my part and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think a part of the reason behind point two, three, and possibly point four, is that there are a lot of people in gor that aren't really looking for the fantasy RP part of things.  These are people that probably should just be in BDSM sims or combat sims, but become attracted to gor due to the large population.  I have met a few terrible RPer, to the point even using the phrases RPer is kind of a disservice to other RPers, and many of them have group lists and picks full of gorean references.

 

So yeah, tear it apart if you want, I wont feel bad, I am stepping into a thread at page 10 after all, just thought I would throw some thoughts out there for you to do with as you like.

 

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Krystara wrote:

 

 

Second point.  Gor RP seems to contain a lot more people with issues separating between RL and SL than other RP I have played in.  I think the idea of 'lifestylers' and the like really adds a layer that hurts the RP and integrity of the setting. Most RP sims, the line between IC and OOC is very straightforward.  In Gor I see a lot of things explained as a real philosophy and people feeling like they are their characters.  The post on page one by Leia36 is a good example of the sort of thing that is often pushed at new players with more emphasis than world setting.  

Context again, I posted my viewpoint into a vacuum. At that point this thread had sat for a while with nobody answering, I posted links to this thread on the Gor SL website and made a thread there to here. Debate on both forums was lively and I think perhaps a few people who have had no insight into gor perhaps understand it a bit better now. Hell I put my point across, many times, am I wrong because I like a certain style?..No, I just expressed my point of view..*shrugs.. You read it didn't you? ;)

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I did read it.  I'm not disagreeing with you having every right to an opinion.

 

Now go ahead and show me one single other thread about RP that talks about changing your RL to match. (of course one could go into semantics about the two definitions of roleplaying, but I think we all know what I mean).

 

I am not trying to pass judgement on the lifestyle.  I dont agree with it, but its not my life, so whatever. The fact is that a post very like that winds up eventually in most Gorean threads. I was just pointing out that it is a very visible aspect of Gor that shades peoples view of the whole.  It also helps to set Gor apart from other RP formats.

 

If the post on page 9 had been posted there instead of what was, the thread would not have gone so long or been so argumentative I imagine, but I see a lot more of the page 1 posts than the page 9 posts.

 

I still believe my point is valid.

 

Also, for the records, it had not been sitting for a while.  The thread had been started 2 hours earlier, and the most recent reply was 17 minutes before yours :)

 

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Thank you, Efouru, for finally explaining something! If more of the people within Gor would give explainations like that, then it would be a more appealing place. But one good answer, even one as great as yours isn't quite enough to make up for the other pages. for the fact that it took until page 9 for that.

Honestly, Krystara's post explains Gor very well. At least, the version that they present to us non-goreans. The problem is that while it takes 9 pages to get a good answer like what Efouro wrote, it seems that Krystara and I can practically trip over people who shed gorean in a bad light. Honestly, I after finally reading a post that explains, in some detail what Gor really is, I feel like a dentist. That was one hell of a tooth extraction.

Efouru's post on page 9 is enough that maybe now I'll be able to read some excerpts, and learn a little more about it. Bug people on an alternate planet deciding what people may or may not have, and being mistaken for gods is an interesting concept. But I really suspect after reading that, when I go to Primal to buy a new bow and arrow, and the rp area is just a free HUD and a teleport away, I'll end up hovering my mouse over the HUD dispenser, thinking, "But there were sooooo many bad answers, do i really want to go in there?" And in the end, because of the bad attitudes displayed by such a vast number of the gorean population, I will not get the hud. I will buy what I came there for, click the home button, and return to my post apoc sim with a new toy.

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Both posters you refer to display the typical anti-lifestyler hate that typifies any discussion on gorean RP.

You are however welcome to try out any style of gorean RP.

Drama is a human condition, its happens everywhere in SL and RL, it is not exclusively Gorean. I am sure you will find similar situations out of gor and indeed out of SL. Love triangles aren't a gorean invention

My friends and I have developed an attachment to our character and RP as such. Is that wrong? No it is just different from other styles of RP.

My relationship with my Master extends far out of gor and indeed is a real relationship. Does that limit my RP? Yes it does. Do I have my own fun in Gor? Again yes I do.

ETA

@Krystara

You wrote:

I am not trying to pass judgment on the lifestyle.

In the post before you wrote:

I think the idea of 'lifestylers' and the like really adds a layer that hurts the RP and integrity of the setting.

That is a judgment that you made about lifestylers

----------------------------------------

You wrote

Now go ahead and show me one single other thread about RP that talks about changing your RL to match.

Here is a very nice one from the starwars SL RP community with the novel title 'The Resol'nare in Real Life' in the section called 'Mandalorian culture into real life'

http://mandoade.com/index.php/topic,57.0.html?PHPSESSID=c8eff3b8b844bb7202a3734cd2cfd511

One section reads

"""4- Raise Your Children as Mandalorians
 While this one is a little iffy (You don't want your kids screaming OYA MANDA and stabbing playmates in school), but what it boils down to at the basis (and most realistic in our lives) is this: Teach your children what honor means, the importance of keeping promises and oaths and staying loyal to the people they care for. Train them to know how to survive in potential dangerous situations. Things like that."""

------------------------------

If the post on page 9 had been posted there instead of what was, the thread would not have gone so long or been so argumentative I imagine, but I see a lot more of the page 1 posts than the page 9 posts.

I agree, its a pity it had to turn nasty before an objective explanation was aired. I feel that all posters in this thread could have been less confrontational and more informative including myself. Unfortunately whenever Gor lifestylers come into the focus of public debate the same old ugly accusations and insults fly.

Also, for the records, it had not been sitting for a while.  The thread had been started 2 hours earlier, and the most recent reply was 17 minutes before yours

Yes, my timing was incorrect in my post, I was referring to the two day period before lifestylers were attacked and the OP

 

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Leia36 wrote:

 

Both posters you refer to display the typical anti-lifestyler hate that typifies any discussion on gorean RP.

My relationship with my Master extends far out of gor and indeed is a real relationship. Does that limit my RP? Yes it does. Do I have my own fun in Gor? Again yes I do.

Let me be perfectly clear! I don't give a flying **** about lifestylers, about how they think they incoroprate gor into their relationships - or whatever they do.

But this is a thread about................wait for it.............................................role play!

Someone asked about role playing gor - not about your personal relationship, about some philosophy that some might have that is based on the gorean novels - or anyhthing like that.

There are lifestyle sims - they are called lifestyle sims because they are not....................wait for it...............role play sims! Ha, you see a pattern emerging?

If you cannot be a role player - which means.................wait for it........................playing a role, not playing yourself in some made up world - I suggest you stay on the lifestyle sims.

If you want to role play - then for god's sake.....ROLE PLAY, just like any other role player. Read the sim rules, and play away - leave your personal OOC relationships out of it. If you do not like stuff - fade it to black - that is what all role players can do.

There is no lifestyler hatred. People just do not want to be involved in your D/s relationship when they role play - they do not want other players to think they are OOC subs or whatever some types think - just because they play a certain role. Is that really so hard to understand? Really?

So...having said all that...some fun facts about sl gor :)

I mostly played a free woman in sl gor. I often played a pretty dominant free woman - one who had male slaves - all in a way that was acceptable in a gorean conext. It is amazing how many hard core ueber dominant gorean guys told me they would like to be my slave from time to time. They offered to bring on their secret slave alts - or to create one - just for that purpose. Ah, fun times......I could make many many slave girls cry if I told them about their always so dominant masters - and how they enjoy to be the part time sub to a woman. But - I would never do that of course - I can be cruel, but I am not THAT cruel :)

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Efurou wrote:


Leia36 wrote:

 

Both posters you refer to display the typical anti-lifestyler hate that typifies any discussion on gorean RP.

My relationship with my Master extends far out of gor and indeed is a real relationship. Does that limit my RP? Yes it does. Do I have my own fun in Gor? Again yes I do.

Let me be perfectly clear! I don't give a flying **** about lifestylers, about how they think they incorporate gor into their relationships - or whatever they do.

But this is a thread about................wait for it.............................................role play!

Someone asked about role playing gor - not about your personal relationship, about some philosophy that some might have that is based on the gorean novels - or anyhthing like that.

There are lifestyle sims - they are called lifestyle sims because they are not....................wait for it...............role play sims! Ha, you see a pattern emerging?

If you cannot be a role player - which means.................wait for it........................playing a role, not playing yourself in some made up world - I suggest you stay on the lifestyle sims.

If you want to role play - then for god's sake.....ROLE PLAY, just like any other role player. Read the sim rules, and play away - leave your personal OOC relationships out of it. If you do not like stuff - fade it to black - that is what all role players can do.

There is no lifestyler hatred. People just do not want to be involved in your D/s relationship when they role play - they do not want other players to think they are OOC subs or whatever some types think - just because they play a certain role. Is that really so hard to understand? Really?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly I am tired of the argument, no its not hard to understand and perhaps I can offer some clarification. Here is why I see lifestyler sims in SL as being RP. (I have yet to meet a RL Gor lifestyler, that's simply not for me)

On our old sim of Thermae which was a lifestyler sim in the north, we, including the High Jarl(sim owner) and most of the people of the village, were and are still good OOC friends. On an average day the RP was there but so was a social element

When unscripted events such as the day one of the High Jarls slaves, a close friend of mine, made the IC mistake of disobeying a Master in RP, what ensued in the RP was intense and knife sharp. The slavegirl had pushed the Jarl over the edge, as it were, and he was out for blood.

Now if we were a sim such as you describe then no big deal, whipping and done, over in a few minutes right? On that sim the punishment was almost OOC and was very very intense. The RP was right out there, emotions were high and the session lasted for hours.

It was an evening to remember and some of the best RP I have ever been a part of. By now you are shaking your head saying wasn't RP...well yes it was, we weren't actually on gor, nobody actually got whipped, it was entirely consensual, in my opinion it qualified as RP, but it had the bite of reality to it.

 

So...having said all that...some fun facts about sl gor
:)

I mostly played a free woman in sl gor. I often played a pretty dominant free woman - one who had male slaves - all in a way that was acceptable in a gorean conext. It is amazing how many hard core ueber dominant gorean guys told me they would like to be my slave from time to time. They offered to bring on their secret slave alts - or to create one - just for that purpose. Ah, fun times......I could make many many slave girls cry if I told them about their always so dominant masters - and how they enjoy to be the part time sub to a woman. But - I would never do that of course - I can be cruel, but I am not THAT cruel
:)

*smiles, how much for the list of secret male slaves,...highest bidder? :smileywink:

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Leia36 wrote:

Now if we were a sim such as you describe then no big deal, whipping and done, over in a few minutes right? On that sim the punishment was almost OOC and was very very intense. The RP was right out there, emotions were high and the session lasted for hours.

It was an evening to remember and some of the best RP I have ever been a part of. By now you are shaking your head saying wasn't RP...well yes it was, we weren't actually on gor, nobody actually got whipped, it was entirely consensual, in my opinion it qualified as RP, but it had the bite of reality to it

 My understanding is that this is known as Augmentationist Behaviour', and yes, is very separate from Roleplayer Behaviour.

Augmentationists use roleplay as a way to explain and enhance (literally, to augment) their reality (reality, in this case, being an emotional relationship), whereas roleplayers do not. Roleplayers see their avatars as characters, whose emotional lives pause when they go OOC/offline.

I wish I had more resources to these definitions; I can only hope Google works better for you than it worked for me. I will hunt later for specific sources, but I'm roaming currently on not-my-Internet.

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Ok, you got me on the mandalorian thing, as a pretty big star wars fan I'm surprised I haven't heard of it, I expect its a much smaller or at least less vocal group than gorean lifestylers, but I you clearly found an example I wasnt expecting existed
:)


Leia36 wrote:

@Krystara

You wrote:

I am not trying to pass judgment on the lifestyle.

In the post before you wrote:

I think the idea of 'lifestylers' and the like really adds a layer that hurts the RP and integrity of the setting.

That is a judgment that you made about lifestylers

---------------------------------------

..... [skipped stuff not relevant to this part of discussion]...
I agree, its a pity it had to turn nasty before an objective explanation was aired. I feel that all posters in this thread could have been less confrontational and more informative including myself. Unfortunately whenever Gor lifestylers come into the focus of public debate the same old ugly accusations and insults fly. 

 

No it is not.  At worst it is an opinion.  I think most would agree that RP is best created by giving a character a life of their own that is distinct from the person acting it out.  Similar, sure if you want, but unique.  My statement is that lifestylers blur that line, and that makes that separation more of a problem, and in the context of the rest of the post, very relevant.  Are you trying to say that you do not blur the line between RP and RL?  Am I wrong in making this conclusion?  Otherwise I do not see a judgment on my part.

As a new player, asking about setting information, if the first significant reply I see is 'This is how you should live your RL life if you play Gor', I am going to start running and never look back.  You might note that the original poster never returned to the thread after your lifestyle post.

I never said I think that a Gorean lifestyle is a horrible thing.  I don't agree with it personally, and, like most attempts to mix fantasy with reality, it is a hell of a risky balancing act, but really, its not my life, I don't care.  But when you bring it up and push it on new players, well it taints peoples view of the whole thing.  The lifestyle isn't the problem, the pushiness is. 

 

 

Now, here I am going to probably piss people off a little bit, so, you know, don't read it if you are easily offended.

Anyways, a lot of gorean lifestylers, much like other similar groups, Bronies, Vegans, etc, adopt this to be 'special and different, like everyone else in their group'.  And in a similar fashion, the way to know if someone is a that sort of lifestyler is to wait, because they will be sure to tell you.  It is this very pushy perceived prejudice attitude that tends to put me off on the group in the first place.  Oh look, you mentioned us, you must be judging us, we have a right to...etc etc.  I call bullcrap, if discussing in a polite and valid way, my thoughts on a video game upset you, grow a thicker skin, because I wont stop having an opinion, and it wont stop being valid because you don't like it.  And its worth noting that the ones that do have this attitude and need to tell everyone about it and take insult to every little perceived slight, make life hell for the people in these groups who just want to live their life quietly.  

 

Now, just to take a few things here and make a little food for thought.  If someone posted a thread and asked 'so I keep hearing about this star wars, and I want to do some RP there, whats it all about?'.  Would you expect a response that detailed the tenets of the mandalorian lifestyle, and how to apply it in your home life?  If that was given as a reply, would you expect a significantly different direction for the thread than this one took?  

 

PS: Sorry about the formatting, I cant seem to get it right, it keeps trying to be gray and italic like.

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Krystara wrote:

.  

 

Now, just to take a few things here and make a little food for thought.  If someone posted a thread and asked 'so I keep hearing about this star wars, and I want to do some RP there, whats it all about?'.  Would you expect a response that detailed the tenets of the mandalorian lifestyle, and how to apply it in your home life?  If that was given as a reply, would you expect a significantly different direction for the thread than this one took?  

 


*waves my hand in front of your face*

These are not the droids you are looking for.....

 

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Leia36 wrote:

 

Both posters you refer to display the typical anti-lifestyler hate that typifies any discussion on gorean RP.

You are however welcome to try out any style of gorean RP.

Drama is a human condition, its happens everywhere in SL and RL, it is not exclusively Gorean. I am sure you will find similar situations out of gor and indeed out of SL. Love triangles aren't a gorean invention

My friends and I have developed an attachment to our character and RP as such. Is that wrong? No it is just different from other styles of RP.

My relationship with my Master extends far out of gor and indeed is a real relationship. Does that limit my RP? Yes it does. Do I have my own fun in Gor? Again yes I do.

 

I really need you to clarify this response for me. Teh two posters tat I mentioned were Eforou and Krystara.

So, in terms of Eforou, are you saying that being the one and only person to actually make any mention of what gor entails, to make any hint of what the plotline and setting are, is a hateful act? Because that specificaly was the post that I ws referring to. Would omitting that post and keeping those detaisl secret be the right thing to do? I don't get it. To me, that seemed to be the one and only post that said anything positive about gor.

As for Krystara, her post best summarizes the what and the why of the non-gorean sentiment. Honestly, people can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me. People can mix rl and sl as much as they want, as long as I'm not on sim to witness it. But that's no diffreent than saying that people in another country can kill eachother because theyr'e there, and I'm here, is it? Just like I wouldn't take a vacation to the middle east because people blowing eachother up and cutting off eachother's heads isn't my thing, a gor rp area isn't someplace I see myself going, because people who mix rl with sl aren't my thing. Particularly when it goes to some of the levels described in this thread. Furthermore, Krystara's thread illustrated the OOC attitude of a gor rp'er as you, the goreans present yourselves to us. I have seen the same things. If she is wrong, or if I am wrong, then that could mean only that there are a lot of people in Gor who simply shouldn't be there.

In summary, had the entire thread gone the way that Eforou's post did, then there would be fewer Krystaras in the world. Admittedly, fewer of me too, since I agree with her fully. The problem is that her views were not created in a vacuum. The experiences that many people have when they first see the word gor and ask what it is is largely the same. those who are involved may see some merit to it. they may see beyond all the empty rhetoric that was given by the gor community in this thread, to get to the actual substantial roleplay. And once you're past it, I don't know, it might not be so bad for a roleplayer, who goes back to normal life after they log out. But getting past the curtain of **bleep** is nearly impossible. It is even more difficult when the only post that makes mention of gor in a thematic, objective way rather than a rhetorical way is dismissed by players within the gor community as "hate."

Furthermore, to then, in your retort make mention of your relationship with your gor master extending out of gor, and into reality, it seems that you are only illustrating Krystara's point about the lack of IC/OOC seperation that makes other rp a thriving, happy place.

And this "lifestyler" thing, which has nothing to do with the original question... That means that there are people out there using gor as a way to control someone remotely through texts? Am I understanding that right? That the whole dom/sub thing actually goes beyond typing the responses, to people doing things in the real world that can have serious legal, health, or social consequences? That people will do these things that can potentially harm their own rl on behalf of someone they have met in a sim that's supposed to take place on an alternate planet run by bug people? Are you KIDDING? that has got to be the most pathetic thing I ever heard of. Could you imagine someone trying to explain to thier boss or to the cops, "I did it because gormaster123 told me to do it and he's my master in second life."

 

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*sighs...Dont know why I keep posting, I suppose in retrospect I should have found a better explanation, however there is some validity to what I posted on page 1...

Well, the question of Gor is not easy to explain in a few words. Certainly it is easy to say Gor is the planet from John Normans Novels about another world, the earths twin planet. Gor also means HomeStone.

Truthful statement, There is no need to explain further and certainly not 'lifestyle'

But to say in a few words, what Gor and gorean lifestyle means and for which people this community exists, here some guidelines:

Emphasis on the AND

•Men are men and woman are woman, they are not equal!

Truthful statement about the gender dynamic of Gor ROLEPLAY

•There is a natural order existing along men and woman, human, animals, strong and weak… each one has a place in the complete whole

For any ROLEPLAYER this is valuable info in as much that within the context of the setting in RP, the priest kings have kept the planet ecologically stable and 'more natural' than earth. On Gor its the law of the jungle and as such this statement has value to someone who knows nothing about the RP setting.

•slavery is a part of the society, a part of life

Truthful statement, There is no need to explain further and certainly not 'lifestyle'. It has value to someone who knows nothing about the RP setting.

•The life of the female slave is a consistent, totalistic and indissoluble whole

Again true, no lifestyle here, a person wanting to RP a slave will find this useful

•the gorean philosophy does exist, it is a philosophy for humans, living on earth, not only fiction in a few books

Yes this statement is lifestyle, however as a statement it is true. There are people on earth that live this way, I am not among them.

•Gor is not one way, there are dozens of possible ways, all could be gorean, but Gor is always full of honor and respect for nature and for each creature

True and useful to the prospective RPer. Provides context for the setting.

•Gor includes different cultures and folks, different way of life, different people

Again true and useful to the prospective RPer. Some like myself, when first encountering Gor don't realise that it is multicultural and for a RPer looking to find an interesting role, this is very useful.

Gor is another idea of society, it is different to most earths life, but in fact Gor is not really new: in some part of this world, you find very similar societies and cultures, at least they were existing in the past.

Provides context, not the most helpful of statements but it is a follow on of the previous point.

Gor is more than the Master/slave part. But the Master/slave part is probably the most interesting part. To understand, why a woman submits to men, why men like to own woman, why Master/slave can reach a really fulfilled life, one need to understand the complete whole about Gor. For this it makes sense to read the books and to talk to different people and finally to find ones own place, depending on strengths and weaknesses, gender, experiences and skills and of course on ones own honor and respect.

Context again, a RPer new to Gor would find that sentence informative It explains the Master/slave dynamic on Gor which is central to gor as a theme. It also shows how using your previous non gorean experiences to find your own place..Does it mention lifestyle or SL? No it doesn't, it again provides CONTEXT.


Even if a Master has power over his slave, he respects her as the creature, she is.

Info is relevant to RP

A slave has no rights, not even to own a name, but it could be (not must be) that a Master does risk his own life for his slave.

Info is relevant to RP

It is a question of honor, loyalty and deep respect for each other.

Info is relevant to RP provides CONTEXT

Master and slave relationship means totally trust, deepest connection between human and absolutely harmony with nature and universe.

Info is relevant to RP provides CONTEXT


----------------------------------------------

My statement is that lifestylers blur that line, and that makes that separation more of a problem, and in the context of the rest of the post, very relevant.  Are you trying to say that you do not blur the line between RP and RL?  Am I wrong in making this conclusion?  Otherwise I do not see a judgment on my part.

Yes I agree the line is blured, but not broken and there lies the rub of the whole argument. I believe that the post by Freya Mokusei above on this page sums it up nicely, also from my earlier post;


When unscripted events such as the day one of the High Jarls slaves, a close friend of mine, made the IC mistake of disobeying a Master in RP, what ensued in the RP was intense and knife sharp. The slavegirl had pushed the Jarl over the edge, as it were, and he was out for blood.

Now if we were a sim such as you describe then no big deal, whipping and done, over in a few minutes right? On that sim the punishment was almost OOC and was very very intense. The RP was right out there, emotions were high and the session lasted for hours.

It was an evening to remember and some of the best RP I have ever been a part of. By now you are shaking your head saying wasn't RP...well yes it was, we weren't actually on gor, nobody actually got whipped, it was entirely consensual, in my opinion it qualified as RP, but it had the bite of reality to it.

We really enjoy our style of Gor, by combining a bit of RL into it makes it more 'real' the reactions more 'real' Its easy for a RPer to FTB and calmly accept their fate but if it WAS real then that meekness might disappear in a heartbeat. The resulting action would in my opinion be that much more believable and exciting, however I am not advocating our style for everyone, far from it, but we have the right to put our case before the prospective newcomer s much as the rest of Gor.


You might note that the original poster never returned to the thread after your lifestyle post.

There is no way of knowing 'why' for all we know he got run over by a bus after posting, to attribute his non reply to my post is totally unfair


If that was given as a reply, would you expect a significantly different direction for the thread than this one took? 

You would expect a negative answer normally now wouldn't you, but Star Wars has far less negative connotations than gor does. Honestly I think that if someone posted what is mandolorian in that forum and another person answerd with a slightly lifestyle slanted post it would probably not run to 11 pages. Gor is a hot topic, gets the temperatures in the red more often than not. Its very nature makes it so.

Finish...wow this is getting long winded :smileywink: , feel free to IM me later, perhaps we can meet and chat, save us both some time :smileyhappy: 


Ok next @ solstyse

So, in terms of Eforou, are you saying that being the one and only person to actually make any mention of what gor entails, to make any hint of what the plotline and setting are, is a hateful act?

Efurou wrote in different posts:

"Even the so called lifestylers in sl - and I have met a few that have a screw or two lose"

"But if they have more then two brain cells they know very well - it is only that - a fantasy"

"and you post this lifestyler idiocy. That is exactly why people think gorean role players are loons. They think they are all like that. They think they all believe that crap."\

 

You fail to see my point regarding lifestyler sims, here it is in a nutshell. We choose to 'live' our character's lives as if we were them. In my opinion it leads to more realistic RP and with more fun socially, read my previous post carefully.

 

lack of IC/OOC separation that makes other rp a thriving, happy place.

I disagree completely, I believe the opposite to be true.

And this "lifestyler" thing, which has nothing to do with the original question... That means that there are people out there using gor as a way to control someone remotely through texts? Am I understanding that right? That the whole dom/sub thing actually goes beyond typing the responses, to people doing things in the real world that can have serious legal, health, or social consequences? That people will do these things that can potentially harm their own rl on behalf of someone they have met in a sim that's supposed to take place on an alternate planet run by bug people? Are you KIDDING? That has got to be the most pathetic thing I ever heard of. Could you imagine someone trying to explain to their boss or to the cops, "I did it because gormaster123 told me to do it and he's my master in second life."

Yes indeed it does and some of what gets done would make you blush and want to shake the person obeying, however like most things in life when done in moderation between consenting adults behind closed doors, It is no ones business but the people involved as long as laws are not broken. That said, there is one very very important aspect about going RL with your Dom/me that I must mention and thats health and safety. It is the responsibility of the submissive to ensure her own health, safety and reputation before the needs of her Master, any other way will surely result in disaster at some point. This aspect is my number one consideration in any RL interaction with my Master.

 

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I agree there are some things of use to RP in your response, but not at all what the poster needed, and a good bit of unneeded tossed in.  That was the point.  All of the things you list as 'useful RP info', is not really very useful to a new player.  Perhaps to someone who already knew the setting and was looking to nuance their character it could be of use, if their character was of a similar mind to yours, but it reads a lot more like trying to set groundwork for the 'This is philosophy for real life' statement.  Enough so that as soon as I read that line, I shook my head and dismissed the rest of the post as a big lifestyle advertisement, as would many who read it.

On top of the fact that the philosophy is yours, not the same as everyone else that plays the game.  The difference in usefulness to a new player compared to Efurou's post is night and day.  

And no, there is no guarantee that the person moved on for other reasons, it was just an observation.  My point is that you will make people move on with statements like that, I know its part of why I kept looking elsewhere after poking my nose into gor when I first started.  I suspect I am not the only one.  I went to the Gor site you linked, great big forums, with hardly a useful tidbit for building a new character.  It is like looking for breadcrumbs to get an idea of the lore and story.  That or read 20odd books of questionable writing quality.

On the other point, mixing RL and SL is not needed for deep emotional RP.  I suppose each person is different, and is is easier to fall into a role if you identify it as yourself, but for someone who has done a lot of RP, I find that making that distinction lets me really step into the role more deeply, not less.  Think of it like a method actor I suppose, it lets you step outside of who you are and become the character for a time, and leads to deep emotional RP at least as well as playing yourself in a fantasy world, all with the added benefit of being able to step back out of the role when the session is over.

It is also fun in that it lets you explore characters and roles that are wholly unlike yourself, again, when you mix IC and OOC, the character becomes like the player to an extent since you are personifying them.

As for IMing you in game, I kind of like the forum because I have free time to kill where I can't play, so it gives me something to do here :).  Its also easier for new opinions to pop in and add to the the discussion.  You are free to IM me in game if you want though, I'm generally always willing to chat with people.

 

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Well, the reasons why I am so quick to defend Erorou are:

1. Eforou's posts seem most aligned with what the rp community as a whole feels.

2. The first time I ever saw the word gor was a year ago. A YEAR! I got curious, and started asking people then. Got crap for answers. My current character was rezzed 3 months ago, specifically for post-apoc rp. I CONSTANTLY get mistaken for a "panther." So I ask what the hell I'm being istaken for, and get told, "Read a book." In other words, crap for answers. out of every single gor rp'er I have ever exhanged words with, whether here or within sl, Efourou is the only one who tried to really shed any light on the subject.

3. NINE PAGES into a thread entitled "What is gor." Eforou finally told us what the setting is. I mean, seriously, nine pages to get the SETTING?!?!? And none of you gorean rp'ers can see why this is a problem? I mean really, in any other thread, about any other form of rp, the setting would have been brought into light in page ONE! And Eforou's post was the ONLY one that offered any kind of real insight into what the world of gor really is.

The truth is that when someone asks what is __________ style of roleplay, what they want to know, first and foremost, is the overall setting. That is the primary concern of anybody who is deciding where to rp. It is how they determine whether they would consider immersing themselves in that environment to be an enjoyable experience. When it is so difficult to get any kind of straight answer, and are instead met with horror stories of people who fail to seperate IC from OOC, and who suffer real life consequences as a result, of course the decision is going to be biased against that style of rp. They don't know what it's about yet, but they know that a bunch of wacko emotionally unstable people are involved. I'm not saying that in fact that is how all gorean rp'ers are. But I'm saying that is definitely the way that most of you present yourselves.

This thread is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Such a simple question, yet instead of answering it by saying "Gor is about this world where__________ and has these kind of characters (insert list here.) Common occurances and plotlines in gorean sims are ________" What we got was a lot of skewed philosophy, back and forth arguing about whether taking ROLEPLAY into the real world is acceptable or not, and to put it mildly, just plain drivel. Eforou, being the one and only person who tried to shed any light on it, and who frankly posted in such a way as to be the only gorean person on here that the "average" roleplayer can relate to, was then accused of "hate" by the other goreans.

Even if you are to look at the other posts quoted by Eforou....

Efurou wrote in different posts:

"Even the so called lifestylers in sl - and I have met a few that have a screw or two lose"

"But if they have more then two brain cells they know very well - it is only that - a fantasy"

"and you post this lifestyler idiocy. That is exactly why people think gorean role players are loons. They think they are all like that. They think they all believe that crap."\

Statement one (met a few who had a screw or two loose.) The other gorean rp'ers here gave specific examples of a few who had a screw or two loose! This thread is full of them! Besides that, such a statement is a show to the rest of us that there are people within gor who we can relate to. Who don't see taking rp to the extreme that consequences spill into rl as a good thing.If anything, to a non-gorean rp'er, this is a statement that has the potential to pull us back into discussion. What is implied in such a statement is that there are also a few who DON"T have a screw or two loose.It paraphrases into, "I know some people take it too far, but...." I don't see that as being hateful or anti-gor at all.

Statement two applies to any form of roleplay. There is no reason to take it personal, or as an indictment of gor specifically. And because this is an attitude shared by nearly all of us "typical" roleplayers, I see it as another one of those all too rare attempts to reach out, and to find common ground with the rest of the roleplay community.

Statement three is completely accurate. There several red flags all over this thread to someone who is thinking about looking into gor. The stereotype that has been created by the gorean roleplayers about themselves is not a good one. This statement is the reason why when I do get mistaken for a gorean roleplayer, I feel the need to clarify with a quickness. I don't want people to immediately write me off as someone who bases theri rl on a work of fiction, and does things in rl to appease someone who essentially nothing but pixels and text on my screen. The impression that Eforou's posts give is that they are a very serious attempt to dispell these negative stereotypes. I applaud Eforou for that, and I can't figure out why the people who actually rp gor don't also.

"typical" roleplayers such as myself, and just anyone else who has to ask "What is gor" do absolutely consider this whole lifestyler thing to be pure idiocy. It brings the whole fantasy dangerously close to home. All these stories about people who crossed/broke/over-blurred the line just validate our opinion. These kind of stories reinforce the negative stereotypes. Particularly when there was no need to get into the lifestyler thing in the first place.

When someone asks, "What is gor?" The gorean community would serve itself best if it would just answer the question! People will be less likely to think ill of you if you just tell them the setting, the character types, maybe some plot points, and omit details about how gor has affected your rl life or rl philosophy. You goreans have it all backward. This is where the negative stereotype comes in. Nomatter how sane or normal you may actually be, when a question about roleplay is met with absolutely no into on setting, and all kinds of philosophies that are based upon works of fiction, the natural inclination is for a person to feel that they came away from the conversation with no new informatioin other than you take your roleplay entierely too seriously, and that you in fact believe the fantasy. When this is what is presented to us the minority of the time, we can take it with a grain of salt. When it's the majority of the time, as it is when inquiring about gor, of course conclusiions will be drawn that makes a person think ill of the community as a whole.

As for the IC/OOC seperation. Maybe we just have different styles. But for me, and for most who I rp with, this is a very useful tool to avoid the very pitfalls that make the gorean community seem so unappealing to the rest of us. I have been in sims where we've done horrible, horrible things to eachother's characters. Some of which shattered limits. One of my most memorable rp's was when one of my other characters got lobotomized by a pistol in an urban sim. Before the trigger bot pulled, I recieved an IM saying, "I don't want to kill you. But for realism, I would pull the trigger the way you struggled, and I'm too close to miss." I had a few minutes before it was her turn in PO. So i got on google, and found out that a gunshot to the head has a 9% survival rate. I Im'ed back, "It's best for the story, so hit." I did NOT want to rp a permanent disability. Nor did I think I could. our IM's continued, until we ended up putting eachother on our friends list. For months after that, it was IM's about how well I was roleplaying the recovery (often with people who's characters had to deal with my character's bitterness and depression over losing part of her faculties) showed me that not only could I roleplay someone so disadvantaged, but that despite the anguish and helplessness that my character felt, I actually enjoyed being the author of that part of her story. I felt a sense of accomplishment being complimented on my skills as a writer when I got pushed to something I didn't think I could do. I feel not only am i capable of something I thought I wasn't but it also improved my skills as a writer. That is the gratification that a typical roleplayer feels. And I know that without all those OOC IM's, it's something I never could have accomplished.  The epilogue to this story, is that a few months later, when my rp group in that sim disbanded, my current character was created... With english as her second language, a phobia for all things metal, and a theology and language that I made up off the top of my head. why? Because after being pushed beyond what I thought were the limits of my creativity before, I now have enough confidence in my writing to play such a difficult character. To me, improvement and honing of a person's writing skill is the only acceptable rl consequense of any rp

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I have explained my point of view many times and I have no wish to repeat myself. I spent an inordinate amount of time explaining my post on page 1 and by your answer it appears you only skimmed it. We are arguing past each other and further discourse will serve little purpose.

Believe it or not I am only a part time RPer and I use an alt for my time in Gor, in fact its something my husband and I enjoy on weekends occasionally.

Something posted on the GorSL website is appropriate here

Carter Ebbage wrote:

"However, its not my role, not my desire or part of my objective to promote Gor or spend emotional energy or time dissuading others of their misperceptions.. they can only do that by coming to SL GOR and seeing for themselves as I did."

Come and look, or don't come, we will still be here having our own fun, there is only one way you will ever find out for certain.

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Leia36 wrote:

Come and look, or don't come, we will still be here having our own fun, there is only one way you will ever find out for certain.

 

I've been reading this whole thread(and tons like it) for some time now, years actually. Not because I am personally interested in Gor, or being part of it I mean. I just happen to be curious about what others see in it, and why they are interested in it. I like understanding why people like the things they do, because I like understanding people. Gor is simply not of my personal liking, but that's really neither here nor there. I wanted to reply to this particular part because it demonstrates the exact reason why threads like this get started and eventually get heated or off topic, they all do, in the first place.

The above is akin to telling someone to "read the books" or "figure it out". If someone wants information on something, and you don't want to give it to them, or can't, by all means don't. No one ever said anyone had to answer. But in choosing to answer, imo, it's wise to at the very least be forthright, upfront and clear on what it is you're saying, and do your best to actually answer what was asked, lol. That comment above, is none of those, but it's a common answer. And that right there is what frustrates people just trying to understand.

Yes people can go to Gor sims to "see for themselves". Or rather, they can try. But more times than not, when doing that, they come out even more confused than they were when they went in. I know this firsthand. I have a few friends who are very much into Gor. They've tried numerous times to get me into it, to no avail. So one day I asked them "why do you like it so much, what's it all about". Not a single one could give me a straight answer. I've asked plenty of people in Gor what it is that fascinates them about it and why they like it, and what it really entails(to them, mind you since not everyone defines it exactly the same, as with all things in life). I've gotten a LOT of very vague answers. That's not to say they are bad answers, but they don't really answer the question that's asked, which doesn't make them very helpful. The same that "come watch", "come see", "go read the books", "look it up" and things like this, also don't answer the question "What is Gorean"-aka the topic.

I've been to Gor sims, I've been to places where OOC people are supposedly welcome and able to ask questions. I've got probably dozens and dozens of NCs in my inventory that supposedly explain Gor(they don't). I've even stood around for hours just observing, watching other non-Gor people come in to see what it's really all about. I am not really surprised that it's rare for them to get a straight answer in local, though I used to be surprised by it. There may be someone helpful in their IM box, but if the person continues asking in local odds are there isn't someone in their IM box trying to be helpful. It stands to reason people would wonder why the need for hush hush, why the need for "figure it out on your own" type answers. Even if those giving the answers don't realize that's how they're coming across. It shouldn't take multiple people continually asking the same questions over and over, just to get an answer that SHOULD be simple. Unless of course, you can't answer, in which case, it's probably best not to try.

All you're doing by giving answers like that is giving people a reason to not want to even bother. It's almost as if people believe the mere question is stupid, or something. I believe there are no stupid questions, but there sure as heck can be stupid answers. Not to say any in particular here are stupid, but not helpful answers are just as useless as stupid ones sometimes.

As for the rest, eh, topics like this tend to get exactly like it did and eventually people get butthurt. Take it with a grain of salt, no matter which side of the butthurt you're on. I don't always understand why people get passionate about some of the stuff they do, but I do know that when they do sometimes their answers aren't as clear as they probably should or could be. Happens to all of us, and that's a good point to walk away from a conversation, imo. I don't have a horse in this Gor race here, obviously. But I have been, and continue to be, someone curious about what Gor really is to people and whether or not they truly understand it themselves. It's not a crime to be curious, or even ignorant, on a subject.

 

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The reason no one can give any one a straight answer about Gor is because they all know it is wrong.

The question is What is Gor.

The answer is Gor is a lifestyle based on the subjugation of women, but wait, before you get upset, it is ok because women discover that they are happiest and fulfilled as slaves to a man.

Instead of saying that, and oh yes, we are ruled by bug people who travel to earth and enslave women, they just say, figure it out on your own.

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Really? After 23 posts and freeking hours spent carefully constructing my replies I have had enough. That last sentence was pure frustration.  I have with others in this thread from both sides explained what Gor is over and over again...There is only one way you will ever truly know what gor is and that is too enter it. That's fact, anything else is someone else's spin on the subject.

For me Gor is this simple paragraph, it describes what I want to feel from my husband and ultimately what gor is for me

"This is the woman" he said weakly. "What am I bid?" At this point the helmeted warrior began to descend the aisle. We watched him approach.

In moments he stood, too, on the block, facing the crowd. He struck the butt of his great spear on the heavy wood. "Kajira canjellne!" he said. "Slave girl challenge!" He turned to look at me, and I knelt. I could not speak. I feared I might faint.

He turned again to face the crowd.
"I will have this woman," he said. "For her I will stand against all Ar, and all the world."

Slave Girl of Gor

Its the same as driving a car or riding a horse or baking a cake, people can explain to you until they are blue in the face, unless you actualy experience it, you will never truly know what it is.

 

 

 

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