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Hyeena

What is Gorean?

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See, even one of your Senior Members understands,

"I don't know if really has anything to do with BDSM but more the romanticism of slavery, some people find this offensive. How many real life slaves (I am not talking the role playing slaves i.e. women who come home from their job and play kneely time with their partner) have said "WOW slavery is great! It completes me! It makes me a true woman!"  Real slavery is not about consent or anything like that at all. If we look at the books, it is not about consent either. Yes eventually the women accept and relish what they have become but it's not realistic.  Some people frankly find that this might perpetuate a culture where the abuse of women is okay. 

Now don't get me wrong. I know the books are fantasy and have no real problem on an OOC level playing a slave.  But other's may not see it in this manner.  Women have had a long,hard road getting to where they are today, still continue to fight for equality and against images that romanticize the abuse of women.  It may be that they view such genres as Gor as maybe a step back." 

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Thank you for replying, It was not my intention to upset you either. I understand your points all to well, In this day and age there is a lot we as women take for granted. The work and struggle done on our behalf is inspirational and I only wish that some of the people would stand and acknowledge it more often.

As for gor and D/s it is perhaps something that is not for everyone and to explain why that is is simple enough. There is however and element about both that appeals to some women who are completely normal and successful, and sometimes it boils down to a love of strong willed men. Like a previous poster in this thread alluded to, once involved in a serious D/s relationship It is mostly the same as a vanilla relationship. And there is a paradox about D/s that is not apparent from the outside when it comes to ownership, as a good friend has told me many times, there are two ends of the leash.

Thank you for your kind words and I hope I have not offended you either. It is not my intention to become a spokesperson or to represent gor or D/s in any way. Again all I really want to do is help. Thank you again for your reply and have a great weekend :)

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Thank you, you did not upset me, but thank you anyways. I can understand the desire to have a strong man be in control. I can appreciate the freedom one can feel in letting go, so I am not completely perplexed as to the fascination or enjoyment of a submissive lifestyle or even roleplaying one. Thank you for your patience with me, have a nice weekend as well.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Whatever.

The notion that many people subscribe to a philosophy that requires females to be subservient slaves to men does not sound like anything that should be thought of as having some kind of value.

I know if it is roleplay it is just pretend and I know that there are lifestyles and cultures where being a slave is a turn on or whatnot, but a planet and philosophy where women are slaves and property is not anything that I think should be touted as having some kind of philosophical merit.

I  have role played in gor and I basically agree with you. BUT! What you do not take into consideration is - that is is only role play - it is only a fantasy. Yes, the books are boring as hell - but when compared - they are not worse then the "50 Shades of Grey" books. Those are just as badly written - and also boring and predictable as hell. But the truth is - people do not read those kinds of books for their love of literature - but for the kink.

Gorean role play in sl is not any different then any other role play. There are soooo many bdsm sims, urban sims - all kinds of places - where things are played out that are much more violent, much more controversial then anything that happens in gorean role play. But people know - it is just   make believe. Just because they play a killer, a crack whore, a serial killer, a rapist - or whatever they play - they do not adopt any kind of philosophy OOC or in rl that would condone any of those things. The same is true for gorean role play. A lot of people are in it for the D/s kink - and gor provides an enviroment where that can be played out in a community, there is a certain continuity and aesthetic to it - that often is not found on bdsm sims - where the role play is non existant and consists mostly just of short scenes.

So, while I very much agree with you - John Norman's philosophy is crap and laughable - I can still play gor - knowing full well, it is just role play, I might enjoy the kink here and there - but when I am not in character - I know very well, that a woman does not need to be subservient to a man to be happy.

Even the so called lifestylers in sl - and I have met a few that have a screw or two lose - know very well that everything in sl is consesual! A lot of people in sl enjoy the fantasy of non consent - that is not limited to sl gor - go to any bdsm sim and you will see it in abundance....rlv and no end to it! But if they have more then two brain cells they know very well - it is only that - a fantasy. No one can be forced to do anything in sl - it is all fully consensual.

I do not see gorean rp any different then any other role play. Its just make belive - and as so many other role play set ups - it involves a bunch of kinks people enjoy.

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Leia36 wrote:

But to say in a few words, what Gor and gorean lifestyle means and for which people this community exists, here some guidelines:
  • Men are men and woman are woman, they are
    not
    equal!
  • There is a natural order existing along men and woman, human, animals, strong and weak… each one has a place in the complete whole
  • slavery is a part of the society, a part of life
  • The life of the female slave is a consistent, totalistic and indissoluble whole
  • the gorean philosophy does exist, it is a philosophy for humans, living on earth, not only fiction in a few books
  • Gor is not one way, there are dozens of possible ways, all could be gorean, but Gor is always full of honor and respect for nature and for each creature
  • Gor includes different cultures and folks, different way of life, different people

 

 

The person asked about gorean role play - and you post this lifestyler idiocy. That is exactly why people think gorean role players are loons. They think they are all like that. They think they all believe that crap.

 

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The OP did not specify what kind of Gor in his question. If you can supply a better objective short explanation then please do so. I am not a lifestyler, if you read my posts you will see that I am part time just for fun.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Thank you, you did not upset me, but thank you anyways. I can understand the desire to have a strong man be in control. I can appreciate the freedom one can feel in letting go, so I am not completely perplexed as to the fascination or enjoyment of a submissive lifestyle or even roleplaying one. Thank you for your patience with me, have a nice weekend as well.

I was quite young when I first realized I was a bit "different" in my thinking. I suppressed that thinking, which wasn't terribly difficult to do, as my many interests competed well against my libido. I got married with the expectation the phase would eventually pass. It didn't, but the marriage did. I still wrestle with the contradiction between my innate attraction to D/s and my egalitarian upbringing and outlook.

I've followed the D/s online for a very long time. Much... most of what I've read is complete BS. I've never had a RL D/s relationship but the one I had online, for two years, was a wonderful experience, and one I may never repeat. Absent a few rituals, I think anyone would have seen the relationship to be balanced, loving, fun and filled with the same issues as any other intimate relationship between two people. It failed for the reason many SL relationships fail, deception and infidelity.

The term "power exchange" is misunderstood by many. Control may transfer from one person to another in exchange for power being transferred in the other direction. You allow me to take control and have the power to take that away any time you wish. My previous analogy to the use of the leash was both humorous and true. I was as attached to my end as she was to hers. We could both laugh about the "silliness" of feeling our connection in that way, but we did feel it.

The issue I had with the Gor book I read was that such balance was not present. In RL, my SL partner was an intelligent, well educated, successful businesswoman. She enjoyed letting go for a little while in the evenings and I enjoyed finally having a companion with whom I never had to worry about that stupid "What do you want to do tonight? Oh, I don't know, what about you?" conversation. I listened to her carefullly to learn what she loved to do, then took her off to do it, whether she liked it or not ;-)

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Leia36 wrote:

The OP did not specify what kind of Gor in his question. If you can supply a better objective short explanation then please do so. I am not a lifestyler, if you read my posts you will see that I am part time just for fun.

 

It was pretty clear to me the OP was searching for a place to role play. This is also in the role play section of the forum.

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Leia36 wrote:

What is Gorean?

 

And my answer offends you how?

Ok, let me explain - again. The question was very clearly asked in a role play context. Someone wanted to know about gorean role play! The person did not ask about some sort of lifestyle - about some philosophy certain people took from those sci fi books - and translated it somehow to mean that the natural state of real women should be to be submissive to men. As a fantasy there is nothing wrong with those books - as a basis for role play there is nothing wrong with those books.....but if you take it to this level and I quote what you posted...

 

 

  • the gorean philosophy does exist, it is a philosophy for humans, living on earth, not only fiction in a few books

Gor is another idea of society, it is different to most earths life, but in fact Gor is not really new: in some part of this world, you find very similar societies and cultures, at least they were existing in the past.

 

That stuff is not about role play - it is not about a fantasy - it is not about a kink - it is not about consensual adults agreeing  to play something out they both consented to. This is saying those sci fi books are actually a valid philosophy that can be applied to real life. It also brings real life slavery into play - and that is where things become really insane. There is nothing wrong with playing out the slavery part of the gorean novels - all under the umbrella of role play, of the safe sane and consensual rules that apply to real power exchange relationships - but what you posted is exactly why so called goreans are seen as total loons.

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If you are going to play a role, you better know the frame work and the script elements. Data on the framework should be valuable to any prospective newcomer

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Thank you, you did not upset me, but thank you anyways. I can understand the desire to have a strong man be in control. I can appreciate the freedom one can feel in letting go, so I am not completely perplexed as to the fascination or enjoyment of a submissive lifestyle or even roleplaying one. Thank you for your patience with me, have a nice weekend as well.

I was quite young when I first realized I was a bit "different" in my thinking. I suppressed that thinking, which wasn't terribly difficult to do, as my many interests competed well against my libido. I got married with the expectation the phase would eventually pass. It didn't, but the marriage did. I still wrestle with the contradiction between my innate attraction to D/s and my egalitarian upbringing and outlook.

I've followed the D/s online for a very long time. Much... most of what I've read is complete BS. I've never had a RL D/s relationship but the one I had online, for two years, was a wonderful experience, and one I may never repeat. Absent a few rituals, I think anyone would have seen the relationship to be balanced, loving, fun and filled with the same issues as any other intimate relationship between two people. It failed for the reason many SL relationships fail, deception and infidelity.

The term "power exchange" is misunderstood by many. Control may transfer from one person to another in exchange for power being transferred in the other direction. You allow me to take control and have the power to take that away any time you wish. My previous analogy to the use of the leash was both humorous and true. I was as attached to my end as she was to hers. We could both laugh about the "silliness" of feeling our connection in that way, but we did feel it.

The issue I had with the Gor book I read was that such balance was not present. In RL, my SL partner was an intelligent, well educated, successful businesswoman. She enjoyed letting go for a little while in the evenings and I enjoyed finally having a companion with whom I never had to worry about that stupid "What do you want to do tonight? Oh, I don't know, what about you?" conversation. I listened to her carefullly to learn what she loved to do, then took her off to do it, whether she liked it or not ;-)

I believe you really mix things together here - that have  nothing to do with each other. What you describe is an OOC relationship. You describe a relationship between yourself represented by your virtual self in sl - and another real person represented by her virtual self in sl.

Role play is something completely different. When I role play I step into a character that is NOT me! When I role play I am IC (in character.) When people interact with my real self - they interact with me OOC (out of character.) IC I can be thrown in the dirt with a collar on and  made to beg...blah blah blah....... At the same time I might talk to my "abuser" in IM where I am OOC and laugh with him or her about the misery of my poor IC girl.

I have played a male character in gor - where IC I was a real **bleep**, a killer, an person who thought nothing of enslaving a woman. I have played a female character in gor that was a reluctant slave - then a very willing onen - all those things are strictly IC. OOC I am always perfectly equal with all the other players - maintain friendships, and so on and so forth.

It is simply not the same as having an OOC relationship with another player. Role players - if they are halfway  sane - maintain that separation - that is how role play works best.

So even if it looks to a bystander as if my virtual self is terribly abused in sl gor - it is all just pretend and make belief - its just role play. Chances are my abused is a good friend of mine OOC and we are in IMs laughing about the scene.

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Leia36 wrote:

If you are going to play a role, you better know the frame work and the script elements. Data on the framework should be valuable to any prospective newcomer

The info you provided was completely useless to a role player. It had very little to do with role play.

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I get the distinction, Efurou. From what I've seen of Gor RP (not much), it's richer than the books, suggesting that I'm not the only one who found Norman's vision a bit lacking.

ETA: I think this is true for many of the RP sims I've visited. Everybody brings their own personal background and the result expectedly exceeds the scope of the original backstory.

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So, what you are saying Efurou , is that you disbelieve that a man rp-ing a gorean might ever also have a rl value system, outside of being a "D/s lifestyler" in which women are not his equal? Not saying that he's going to rush out of his suburban home and lobby for slavery, but that he might indeed be (shall we say...) less than enamored with feminism. That you expect that all rp-ers harbor no rl agreement with anything that they take on as an action in an rp? I hope that's not what you're saying . Thats a helluva presumption about what goes on in a whole LOT of people's minds.

My thing when processing Gor is taking in that the writer at the point of grabbing his pen it was "just another guy". Not a "lifestyler" or an rp-er. And one who was not impressed with feminism. I dont see how any of the respondents submissions then are "out of place here" if the creator of the concept himself held those values and created the thing being discussed with real world views/feelings. If anything we're "taking it outside" when we say "no , nothing about it is real".

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My reaction go the Gor book I read was not so much that Norman was a misogynist, but that he wasn't a very good writer. Most of my experience with the concepts in the books come not from role-playing somewhere, but by reading stuff online. My presumption has been that those writings are largely "out of character" discussions of the dynamics of relationships. And a lot of that has been BS.

When I'm in an RP sim (which doesn't happen often), I'm aware that the actions I witness may be fantasy, serious, or anywhere in between. My head may also be anywhere along the spectrum, though I'm not much of a role player, so my iconoclasm shines (glares?) everywhere I go.

There's the age old argument that allowing the fantasy promotes the reality. The evidence leaves me undecided. I don't know that I've seen anyone truly live the misogyny of Gor, but I have seen it used as an excuse for exercising, accepting and tolerating bad behavior.

As to Efurou's contention that "it is all fully consentual", I don't think that's true. Though it's more difficult to find oneself in that position in SL than in RL, we make investments of time, money and emotion here, and those investments can be threatened. If one spent significant time here, cultivated a valued circle of friends, acquired an inventory of treasured objects (with emotional and/or monetary value) and built a significant persona, it would be reasonable to expect that person could be coerced by threatening their investment. This can and does happen in SL.

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SinfulPrince wrote:

So, what you are saying Efurou , is that you disbelieve that a man rp-ing a gorean might
ever
also have a rl value system, outside of being a "D/s lifestyler" in which women are not his equal? Not saying that he's going to rush out of his suburban home and lobby for slavery, but that he might indeed be (shall we say...) less than enamored with feminism. That you expect that all rp-ers harbor no rl agreement with anything that they take on as an action in an rp? I hope that's not what you're saying . Thats a helluva presumption about what goes on in a whole LOT of people's minds.

I don't care if people are emamored with feminism. I do not live in other people's mind - and I have no interest in controlling how they think or feel about things. That is true for rl and sl.

I can talk about my experiences in sl gor - and those are that a bunch of very normal people - who are very much against rl slavery play on gorean role play sims. I have a bunch of friends who play on gorean sims - male and female. Not one tried to tell me I am not equal to a man. I never had an issue with anyone in sl gor trying to treat me as a lesser being OOC. I am sure those things do exist - but because we are all equal in sl - we all have the tools to stop crap like that in its tracks.

I am pretty sure there are people who play in Midian who might have a few rl fantasies that might raise a few eye brows - I am sure there are plenty of other places out there who have the crazies who believe things that makes me shake my head. Gorean role players are not different - most of them are just people who like to play a role - there might be a minority of people who are not quite right.

If some guy believes he should be superior to his female partner in rl - he can look for a woman who shares his ideas - and they can ride off into the sunset as far as I  am concerned. Why would I care? As long as such things are consensual - fine with me. If people start pushing that stuff on others who want nothing to do with it - it becomes a problem. In sl - that is not really a problem - the mute button is the great equalizer :matte-motes-smitten:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

As to Efurou's contention that "it is all fully consentual", I don't think that's true. Though it's more difficult to find oneself in that position in SL than in RL, we make investments of time, money and emotion here, and those investments can be threatened. If one spent significant time here, cultivated a valued circle of friends, acquired an inventory of treasured objects (with emotional and/or monetary value) and built a significant persona, it would be reasonable to expect that person could be coerced by threatening their investment. This can and does happen in SL.

How could anyone threaten that investment?

If I do not like to do something in sl - or if I do not like how a person treats me - I just ignore them. If I am in a bad mood - I tell them to take a hike. Problem solved.

Maybe you can explain....I do not know how someone could be coerced in sl - or how their investment in inventory, avatar, friends can be threatended?

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Efurou wrote:


Madelaine McMasters wrote:

As to Efurou's contention that "it is all fully consentual", I don't think that's true. Though it's more difficult to find oneself in that position in SL than in RL, we make investments of time, money and emotion here, and those investments can be threatened. If one spent significant time here, cultivated a valued circle of friends, acquired an inventory of treasured objects (with emotional and/or monetary value) and built a significant persona, it would be reasonable to expect that person could be coerced by threatening their investment. This can and does happen in SL.

How could anyone threaten that investment?

If I do not like to do something in sl - or if I do not like how a person treats me - I just ignore them. If I am in a bad mood - I tell them to take a hike. Problem solved.

Maybe you can explain....I do not know how someone could be coerced in sl - or how their investment in inventory, avatar, friends can be threatended?

And, I could string someone along until they were deeply emotionally invested in me, then begin to make demands. This is certainly not the level of threat one could experience in RL, but it is coercive behavior. I could also insinuate myself into your circle of friends, invite you into mine and allow you to invest in friendships with people over whom I have some influence. I could entice you to invest time, energy and money building on my land. Once I'm in that position, it's not hard to imagine I could start then start applying pressure.

While its easier to grow a skin thick enough to resist these threats than those of fists, knives and bullets, they are still threats. The courts are moving in this direction with cyber-bullying laws. Those are a long way from (I think and I hope) from being applicable in the situations I've described, but the Second Life TOS would not ban threatening behavior if it weren't possible.

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I am RL female and i read the first 3 of the Gor books years ago. I got that it was more geared to the boys, but I was absorbing everything SciFi and Fantasy at that time. We all have fantasies of all kinds and the erotic element wasn't lost on me. Apparantly the author has some peculiar views on the nature of women that fit more into the 19th century than anything else, but he's entitled to think that way. As long as he's not writing laws based on it, his fiction is for most of us just a good yarn.

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

And, I could string someone along until they were deeply emotionally invested in me, then begin to make demands. This is certainly not the level of threat one could experience in RL, but it is coercive behavior. I could also insinuate myself into your circle of friends, invite you into mine and allow you to invest in friendships with people over whom I have some influence. I could entice you to invest time, energy and money building on my land. Once I'm in that position, it's not hard to imagine I could start then start applying pressure.

While its easier to grow a skin thick enough to resist these threats than those of fists, knives and bullets, they are still threats. The courts are moving in this direction with cyber-bullying laws. Those are a long way from (I think and I hope) from being applicable in the situations I've described, but the Second Life TOS would not ban threatening behavior if it weren't possible.

 

Yes, but those things apply  to all of sl - to every role play genre. It is not something that is specific to gorean role play.

I am a big - no a huge proponent of given people who step into any  kind of role play very good information and education. Part of that information has to be that we are all responsible for our selves, for our own safety - and that we can say NO! at any time we want. I am also a big fan of people who are new to any genre and to rp in general to have experienced people to guide them along a bit in the beginning. But the reality is often that new people just want to jump in and they do not want to listen to anything - most do not even want to read sim rules. And a few days  later they **bleep** and moan because they stepped on toes or things did not go their way. When that happens I usually just shrug my shoulders - in the end - we are all adults.

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Morwen Blaisdale wrote:

I am RL female and i read the first 3 of the Gor books years ago. I got that it was more geared to the boys, but I was absorbing everything SciFi and Fantasy at that time. We all have fantasies of all kinds and the erotic element wasn't lost on me. Apparantly the author has some peculiar views on the nature of women that fit more into the 19th century than anything else, but he's entitled to think that way. As long as he's not writing laws based on it, his fiction is for most of us just a good yarn.

That is exactly what it is!

What is surprising though - gor is very popular with women. Gorean sims usually have the problems of having way to many women and not enough men.

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The gorean novels by Norman are among the more interesting reads within science fantasy, and at least their descriptive force is great. That women like the background more might be a first hint that most blabberers here who call it misogynistic are simply clueless. It´s generally about a society where SLAVERY is a fact of life but embedded and openly, like ancient societies were, and not slavery by women alone either, and hell, not slavery of ALL women either. Part of Gor is the Free woman, and she is honoured and valued. Part of Gor is the male slave, and slavery is harder for him too. The whole modern earth dispute over women´s rights doesn´t even exist within Gor.. it has seen a millennia long and alternative approach there, and one obviously not easy or simplistic either. Most of all, Gor is a science fantasy setting.. while i don´t hear people wail over Tolkiens mass murder battles and racial conflict plots, or over Star Wars`exterminatory themes, or over the utterly braindead role of women in most of all heroic fantasy of old, or today´s "vampire" bat**bleep** stories et al., or even worse, the not-even-a-dead-brain-inside woman in 50 shades, i hear Gor is really bad. I play Gor, and its not. Grab a bucket of tolerance all, and in case you find yours empty, just wear it over yer head to improve things.

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