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Bree Giffen

The difference between public and private

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TristanMercer wrote:

10 seconds is not too much, even if the intrusion is accidental.

If I am in a rp with someone, naked...you get the idea. That nakedness is for only who I am with, not with some strange visitor.

It doesn't matter to me if they rez or not. you have 10 seconds to vacate said premises.  Plus no one can even cam into said parcel since parcel privacy is now on every region(if you have it enabled from land options. This is off by default). All people had to do was fly before and get within 500m or so, extend draw distance and cam you.

 

I want privacy for my friends house, for me, and anyone who visits. When people showed up before the orb, they didn't care who you were and went about their business of walking through your home, clicking on everything, trying to turn on the tv, watch a movie, whatever.

 

You want to explore, fine...no problem with that. Ask first.

It all boils down today to people having very little respect for anyone else but themselves. This god like complex that people have is really irritating. I cannot stand most people and to boot, they are so full of themselves. This alone is why my friend and I have a 10 second warning on his orb.

Maybe you chose a crappy neighborhood to live in?

My parcel is on Mainland, I have a club and a number of stores in my vicinity.

I have a visitor tracker and a security orb. I average one person every two days coming on my parcel and none of them have ever stayed long enough to get ejected.

 

 

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I live on a private island. Sure the hell can't pay me to live on the laggy mainland.


What works for you probably won't work for me or for others. I prefer to live on a residential island with no lag that is owned by a wonderful group of people. I sure as hell won't pay LL for a premium membership. It doesn't do me any good. Simply not enough benefits.  Maybe when they bring back some quality control I might reconsider.

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


Qie Niangao wrote:

I don't walk into people's houses in real life, but  I look at pictures of houses in magazines. On the face of it, which is more like Second Life?

Pictures in a magazine are there with the consent of the owners.  Magazine photographers don't invade your house and yard to take pictures with impunity just because you didn't erect a electrical fence.  There is no comparison between this and going on private property in SL without invitation or welcome.

Except that a "house" in SL really is more like a magazine
picture
of a house than it is like a real house, and so it's not that surprising that some folks see SL itself as more like that magazine: a place where people
post
their house pictures. And there are plenty of ways to keep those pictures locked away in private scrapbooks, shown only to friends.

(I do wish, however, that people wouldn't choose the borders of Linden public ways to store their private scrapbooks; so many passersby are forced to look at them against their will, and get the "death penalty" as a result.)

I guess it depends on how you view SL in general.  My house is not a picture I've posted somewhere.   I have no need for others to look at it at all.  It is there for us, not anyone else.   It is where my partner and I live our virtual private life together and entertain our friends.  We all view our avatars and homes as extensions of our RL.  I realize that not everyone feels this way, however respect for others who have different points of view  and following their wishes concerning their private home and determining rather than assuming what those wishes are is just common courtesy.

My partner and I do have a scenic sim where the pubic is welcome and encouraged to come and hang out and they do.  They don't have to pay a thing and can hang there anytime 24/7 as long as they don't cause trouble and follow some simple basic rules.  Since we do contribute to the community at our own cost  I don't think it is  too much to ask that our private lands remain private.

I am aware that there is no real privacy in SL, except than we now we can set land so people outside the parcel can't see you inside.  Camming in to look around is one thing because the occupants are not aware of it and it is not disruptive.  But walking into a home or private land is another thing.  Other than an occasional newb that doesn't know any better and cooperates when asked to leave, my own experience is that people that come onto my property uninvited are disruptive, rude and trouble or they are squatters that think they have a right to use my house when I am not there.

Lastly, just because someone has a house next to public land doesn't negate the fact that they have a right not to be disrupted and to control who comes on their property or that you are forced against your will to deliberately enter it.  It is easy enough to see if you are welcome by checking  to see if it is in search , the description says visitors are welcome or to ask the owner if you may come in.  If you don't have the courtesy to do such a simple and easy thing that takes less than a minute, and deliberately enter, than you are owed no courtesy in return in my opinion.

I am not unreasonable.  We have a "weekend" home on the Blake sea for sailing.  The water on our property is open so that people sailing aren't ejected if they happen to stray into it.  Our home and deck are not open, yet not a day goes by when someone doesn't attempt to enter our home uninvitied and gets ejected.

Since there is the option of camming, why is there any valid need for anyone to go on private property without invitation when they can satisfy their curiosity by camming?  I can't think of one.

 

 

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Lastly, just because someone has a house next to public land doesn't negate the fact that they have a right not to be disrupted and to control who comes on their property.  

The whole thing about parcels neighboring Linden roads and waterways was meant as an aside, but as long as it's under discussion, the problem is that of the "accidental tourist": people trying to make their way down the road and getting tossed into a neighboring parcel. Of course, it's not always a neighboring parcel; an idle or lagging sim can take some seconds to "wake up" and when it does, it's somewhat under-determined where Havok will decide to drop the incoming avatar (and/or vehicle). It's not actually as bad as the physics extrapolation in the viewer--hence "rubber-banding"--so roadside and waterfront parcels are the most likely spots.

Ideally this wouldn't happen, and so ideally, owners of roadside parcels shouldn't need to feel any compunction about choosing whatever privacy settings they want. But the situation is very far from ideal, so those who put banlines (or hair-trigger security scripts) along Linden travel routes are either ignorant of the problem--and there must be a few such innocents--or simply don't care about anybody trying to travel those routes.

And, were it not for newbies, that might be fine. We could just call it another aspect of "game play" where it's "game on" for those banlined parcels: grief them at will or whatever, if that's the Second Life we want. But newbies do travel the roads--perhaps more than experienced residents--and I don't think it advances retention to have their experience be that of constantly extricating themselves from these traps.


It is easy enough to see if you are welcome by checking  to see if it is in search , the description says visitors are welcome or to ask the owner  If you may come in.  If you don't have the courtesy to do such a simple and easy thing that takes less than a minute, than you are owed no courtesy in return in my opinion.

Since there is the option of camming, why is there a need for anyone to go on private property without invitation when they can satisfy their curiosity by camming?  
I can't think of one valid reason that shows any respect for others.

It's not nearly "easy enough" to do that, if you're simply out exploring the Mainland.

It is quite different on a standalone, void-surrounded Estate sim, all owned by one party, all intended to be private. In that case, the owner can just block all entry except to friends, and even if they don't, at least in my experience hardly anybody ever strays onto those sims uninvited anyway. In that case, the landowner can be as visitor-hostile as they want, it doesn't matter. The landowner can even physics-torture intruding avatars, for all I care, if that satisfies some primal need for privacy.

But "courtesy" and "respect" cut both ways. Privacy in SL is something that some folks value. Exploring is something of value to others.

I have a lot of respect for exploring. I'm quite sure I wouldn't be in SL now had I not, early on, accidentally "explored" my way into Scope Cleaver's fantastic house on the Jeogeot coast, and learned the potential of SL architecture. That's not saying that every space has to be open for exploration, but rather that privacy measures should respect exploration, too: until proven otherwise, such measures should always start from the assumption that intruders are innocent. In my experience (apparently counter to yours), they almost always are.

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Since SL is a virtual world, I take the view, when exploring, that it's OK to wander anywhere, including inside empty houses, if there are no measures to prevent me from doing so.  My own home is open for anyone to visit, although it's probably not got much of interest for people to see!

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


I am not unreasonable.  We have a "weekend" home on the Blake sea for sailing.  The water on our property is open so that people sailing aren't ejected if they happen to stray into it.  Our home and deck are not open, yet not a day goes by when someone doesn't attempt to enter our home uninvitied and gets ejected.

 

 

 

ltl by ltl iv been learning to sail .. 1st i had to learn to control the boat & to tack against the wind .. that was pretty easy .. then the problem i had was that my boat wouldnt cross sim boundaries .. 3 sundays ago my bigger faster boat wouldnt cross any boundaries .. then 2 weekends ago the smaller slower boat made several crossings be4 crashing .. then this past sunday the larger boat made every sim crossing until it got hung up in those damn yellow ban lines .. im still learning to navigate .. i was following the map but trying to go in pretty much a direct line .. & there was land & stuff in the way & narrow places to go thru .. some a**hole had put yellow ban lines across 1 such narrow place .. the boat got stuck in them & wouldnt move .. so what i did is flew up, took the boat back in2 inv, flew high & set the mysti tool on fasterest & followed the map across many sims to where my sis was DJing .. so for the 1st time i navigated the cruise howbeit only maybe a 3rduv the way in my boat .. next i need to figure out how to set a course that keeps more to the open sea 

my point being: cursed be any1 who sets those dam yellow lines !! So Mote It BE .. 1st they make me lose my cat & then my boat gets stuck in them .. they suck & so do the ppl who put em up

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:

 

my point being: cursed be any1 who sets those dam yellow lines !!

Jeanne

 

Ok, now I'm confused,  I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:

 

my point being: cursed be any1 who sets those dam yellow lines !!

Jeanne

 

Ok, now I'm confused,  I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?

 

i dunno Czari .. they always look yellow to me .. i use Firestorm

Jeanne

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

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Freya Mokusei wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

Ah ok, thanks Jeanne and Freya.  Yes, I am still using a PC that cannot run the updated viewers, thus I use Phoenix.  I *was* able to use the SL V2 when it first came out. Logged into it and immediately said..."I don't think so," but once it was upgraded to V3, I could no longer log into V2 I still had installed.  Apparently somehow those two viewers "morphed."

What is interesting about SL given the differing PC systems one uses (yes I realize I'm using a dinosaur but, from reading the forums, I'm not the only one....lol), and the different viewers, the "shared experience" is not quite totally shared.  Throw in individual windlight settings and custom setttings for certain skins and what one person sees within SL can look completely different to another person. 

Another example - mesh.  I can't run any of the mesh viewers currently so people wearing mesh, on my viewer, look odd at best and ridiculous at worst.  Oh, and then there are the avatars with gaping holes in them.  I should be getting a new PC by the end of the year (although it still gripes me that the one I have is working perfectly for everything else BUT SL), but I may still run non-mesh viewers for the entertainment value....lol

 

 

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TristanMercer wrote:

I live on a private island. Sure the hell can't pay me to live on the laggy mainland.

 

What works for you probably won't work for me or for others. I prefer to live on a residential island with no lag that is owned by a wonderful group of people. I sure as hell won't pay LL for a premium membership. It doesn't do me any good. Simply not enough benefits.  Maybe when they bring back some quality control I might reconsider.

 

If you are living on a private island, how are you getting intruders?

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


Freya Mokusei wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

Ah ok, thanks Jeanne and Freya.  Yes, I am still using a PC that cannot run the updated viewers, thus I use Phoenix.  I *was* able to use the SL V2 when it first came out. Logged into it and immediately said..."I don't think so," but once it was upgraded to V3, I could no longer log into V2 I still had installed.  Apparently somehow those two viewers "morphed."

What is interesting about SL given the differing PC systems one uses (yes I realize I'm using a dinosaur but, from reading the forums, I'm not the only one....lol), and the different viewers, the "shared experience" is not quite totally shared.  Throw in individual windlight settings and custom setttings for certain skins and what one person sees within SL can look completely different to another person. 

Another example - mesh.  I can't run any of the mesh viewers currently so people wearing mesh, on my viewer, look odd at best and ridiculous at worst.  Oh, and then there are the avatars with gaping holes in them.  I should be getting a new PC by the end of the year (although it still gripes me that the one I have is working perfectly for everything else BUT SL), but I may still run non-mesh viewers for the entertainment value....lol

 

 

V2 was horrible .. V3 not nearly so bad .. i prefer FS to V3 tho .. but its a moot pt if your pc wont run em

so very right you are about things looking different to different viewers & diff settings .. iv looked fine in my viewer & been naked to others before !!! or wearing 2 outfits @ once .. ppl certainly dont see things the same .. depending on pc, viewer & settings .. thats fer sure !!

when i had my old puter & mesh came out .. i preferred to use an older version of FS that wasnt mesh enabled cuz it was considerably less laggy .. i had both versions installed but only used the newer when i wanted to wear the 1 mesh skirt i had in inv .. but now mesh is so common that sl would look funny w/out a mesh viewer .. you need a new pc Czari !!

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Freya Mokusei wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

Ah ok, thanks Jeanne and Freya.  Yes, I am still using a PC that cannot run the updated viewers, thus I use Phoenix.  I *was* able to use the SL V2 when it first came out. Logged into it and immediately said..."I don't think so," but once it was upgraded to V3, I could no longer log into V2 I still had installed.  Apparently somehow those two viewers "morphed."

What is interesting about SL given the differing PC systems one uses (yes I realize I'm using a dinosaur but, from reading the forums, I'm not the only one....lol), and the different viewers, the "shared experience" is not quite totally shared.  Throw in individual windlight settings and custom setttings for certain skins and what one person sees within SL can look completely different to another person. 

Another example - mesh.  I can't run any of the mesh viewers currently so people wearing mesh, on my viewer, look odd at best and ridiculous at worst.  Oh, and then there are the avatars with gaping holes in them.  I should be getting a new PC by the end of the year (although it still gripes me that the one I have is working perfectly for everything else BUT SL), but I may still run non-mesh viewers for the entertainment value....lol

 

 

 .. you need a new pc Czari !!

Jeanne

 

Yes I've been told this ad infinitum on these forums.  One person went so far as to suggest I get a new "hobby" if my PC wouldn't run the new viewers and another said no one who builds should use anything but the SL v3. 

I am quite sure you didn't mean the statement in a mean way, Jeanne, but some people have said this to me in a very hurtful way with no idea of my RL circumstances. Sometimes in RL we have to make choices, especially in the current economic situation. On Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a new computer *just* to run a viewer to see mesh in SL is pretty far down the list....lol.

 

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Czari Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Freya Mokusei wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

Ah ok, thanks Jeanne and Freya.  Yes, I am still using a PC that cannot run the updated viewers, thus I use Phoenix.  I *was* able to use the SL V2 when it first came out. Logged into it and immediately said..."I don't think so," but once it was upgraded to V3, I could no longer log into V2 I still had installed.  Apparently somehow those two viewers "morphed."

What is interesting about SL given the differing PC systems one uses (yes I realize I'm using a dinosaur but, from reading the forums, I'm not the only one....lol), and the different viewers, the "shared experience" is not quite totally shared.  Throw in individual windlight settings and custom setttings for certain skins and what one person sees within SL can look completely different to another person. 

Another example - mesh.  I can't run any of the mesh viewers currently so people wearing mesh, on my viewer, look odd at best and ridiculous at worst.  Oh, and then there are the avatars with gaping holes in them.  I should be getting a new PC by the end of the year (although it still gripes me that the one I have is working perfectly for everything else BUT SL), but I may still run non-mesh viewers for the entertainment value....lol

 

 

 .. you need a new pc Czari !!

Jeanne

 

Yes I've been told this ad infinitum on these forums.  One person went so far as to suggest I get a new "hobby" if my PC wouldn't run the new viewers and another said no one who builds should use anything but the SL v3. 

I am quite sure you didn't mean the statement in a mean way, Jeanne, but some people have said this to me in a very hurtful way with no idea of my RL circumstances. Sometimes in RL we have to make choices, especially in the current economic situation. On Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a new computer *just* to run a viewer to see mesh in SL is pretty far down the list....lol.

 

oh im sorry Czari .. no i didnt mean it in a mean way @ all .. best wishes! :heart:

Jeanne

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:


Freya Mokusei wrote:


Czari Zenovka wrote:

I've always seen red ban lines with the word "BAN" intermittently interspersed.  Is this a different viewer thing?


It changed with V2, 2010 or whenever that was. Now they're yellow, diagonal and vaguely-transparent.

I believe they only display at a closer range and from more precise angles (i.e., cam almost perpendicular to the parcel line), too.

Ah ok, thanks Jeanne and Freya.  Yes, I am still using a PC that cannot run the updated viewers, thus I use Phoenix.  I *was* able to use the SL V2 when it first came out. Logged into it and immediately said..."I don't think so," but once it was upgraded to V3, I could no longer log into V2 I still had installed.  Apparently somehow those two viewers "morphed."

What is interesting about SL given the differing PC systems one uses (yes I realize I'm using a dinosaur but, from reading the forums, I'm not the only one....lol), and the different viewers, the "shared experience" is not quite totally shared.  Throw in individual windlight settings and custom setttings for certain skins and what one person sees within SL can look completely different to another person. 

Another example - mesh.  I can't run any of the mesh viewers currently so people wearing mesh, on my viewer, look odd at best and ridiculous at worst.  Oh, and then there are the avatars with gaping holes in them.  I should be getting a new PC by the end of the year (although it still gripes me that the one I have is working perfectly for everything else BUT SL), but I may still run non-mesh viewers for the entertainment value....lol

 

 

 .. you need a new pc Czari !!

Jeanne

 

Yes I've been told this ad infinitum on these forums.  One person went so far as to suggest I get a new "hobby" if my PC wouldn't run the new viewers and another said no one who builds should use anything but the SL v3. 

I am quite sure you didn't mean the statement in a mean way, Jeanne, but some people have said this to me in a very hurtful way with no idea of my RL circumstances. Sometimes in RL we have to make choices, especially in the current economic situation. On Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a new computer *just* to run a viewer to see mesh in SL is pretty far down the list....lol.

 

oh im sorry Czari .. no i didnt mean it in a mean way @ all .. best wishes! :heart:

Jeanne

 

I was sure you didn't Jeanne. *Hugs*  Mainly wanted to head off "the others." /cue Twilight Zone music...lol.

 

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Ten seconds is way too brief a time to warn someone to leave a parcel.

With lag, the warning might JUST be showing up at ten seconds, just in time for the person to be booted home, or killed or whatever, I've seen both settings on privacy orbs. That hardly seems fair. Many people are there by accident. You have to allow a person enough time to see the warning, to read it, and to choose 'teleport home' from their own drop-down menu. Or to find a different landmark, whichever is quicker for them.

I've too often used an old landmark (sometimes only a couple months old landmark) and wound up in someone's yard. I had no way to know that might happen in advance. I've also lagged through someone's parcel while trying to fly around a store or other public space. I never intend to trespass anywhere. But the orb doesn't know why someone is there.

Sixty seconds on an orb seems fair enough. How much damage can they do in sixty seconds, even if there to cause mischief?

As for myself, most of my land is public and it's been that way for almost four years now. I keep a small amount of group only land so people can 'set home' but a. not abuse the privilege i.e. I don't want to house all of SL i.e. their alts/roomies/friends and b. no one can crash in on them to pester them if they want to be alone. I also like to have a small strip to build on, or just to relax. I think that is OK, and it isn't in the front, so it doesn't impede people trying to go from one place to another.

I'd say teleporting to private islands is iffy. I would not personally do it just to explore. Most homes are on private islands, or at least, those that are, they have usually paid a lot for, and wouldn't like trespassers.

I'd love to have a huge estate at this point in SL just to see what it is like, but I know I'd get sick of chasing people out of it all the time. It isn't the intrusion I mind (especially by accident/curiosity) it's the people who want to have that same SL experience - but NOT pay for it. In their view that is only for others to pay for.

 

 

 

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JeanneAnne wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


I am not unreasonable.  We have a "weekend" home on the Blake sea for sailing.  The water on our property is open so that people sailing aren't ejected if they happen to stray into it.  Our home and deck are not open, yet not a day goes by when someone doesn't attempt to enter our home uninvitied and gets ejected.

 

 

 

ltl by ltl iv been learning to sail .. 1st i had to learn to control the boat & to tack against the wind .. that was pretty easy .. then the problem i had was that my boat wouldnt cross sim boundaries .. 3 sundays ago my bigger faster boat wouldnt cross
any
boundaries .. then 2 weekends ago the smaller slower boat made several crossings be4 crashing .. then this past sunday the larger boat made every sim crossing until it got hung up in those damn yellow ban lines .. im still learning to navigate .. i was following the map but trying to go in pretty much a direct line .. & there was land & stuff in the way & narrow places to go thru .. some a**hole had put yellow ban lines across 1 such narrow place .. the boat got stuck in them & wouldnt move .. so what i did is flew up, took the boat back in2 inv, flew high & set the mysti tool on fasterest & followed the map across many sims to where my sis was DJing .. so for the 1st time i navigated the cruise howbeit only maybe a 3rduv the way in my boat .. next i need to figure out how to set a course that keeps more to the open sea 

my point being: cursed be any1 who sets those dam yellow lines !! So Mote It BE .. 1st they make me lose my cat & then my boat gets stuck in them .. they suck & so do the ppl who put em up

Jeanne

 

I don't use ban lines on my parcel by the ocean, although I could.  I use a security system that protects only my house and deck. The water that is on my parcel is open for anyone to use and provides plenty of room to turn a boat around.  My house is in a small cove area that is not on the main sailing channel.  The people that get ejected are not sailors that have lost control of their boats, but people who deliberately try to enter my home uninvited even when we are there.  We had one just last night pop up on our deck and stand on the lounge between my partner and not say a word.  It wasn't an accident they did it deliberately.   If they someone passing by asks politely I generally have no problem with it will invite them in and chat with them, unless it is not a good time for us. 

BTW, you can get a HUD that shows on your screen and gives you plenty of advance warning of ban lines so you can steer around them.  If you don't have the skill to do that yet you should stay in the area of the ocean that is nothing but open sea.  There are a large multi sim areas like that which give you plenty of room to practice your sailing skills without getting stuck or driving your boat into a house. 

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:

The whole thing about parcels neighboring Linden roads and waterways was meant as an aside, but as long as it's under discussion, the problem is that of the "accidental tourist": people trying to make their way down the road and getting tossed into a neighboring parcel. Of course, it's not always a neighboring parcel; an idle or lagging sim can take some seconds to "wake up" and when it does, it's somewhat under-determined where Havok will decide to drop the incoming avatar (and/or vehicle). It's not actually as bad as the physics extrapolation in the viewer--hence "rubber-banding"--so roadside and waterfront parcels are the most likely spots.

Ideally this wouldn't happen, and so ideally, owners of roadside parcels shouldn't need to feel any compunction about choosing whatever privacy settings they want. But the situation is very far from ideal, so those who put banlines (or hair-trigger security scripts) along Linden travel routes are either ignorant of the problem--and there must be a few such innocents--or simply don't care about anybody trying to travel those routes.

And, were it not for newbies, that might be fine. We could just call it another aspect of "game play" where it's "game on" for those banlined parcels: grief them at will or whatever, if that's the Second Life we want. But newbies do travel the roads--perhaps more than experienced residents--and I don't think it advances retention to have their experience be that of constantly extricating themselves from these

_____________________________________________________________________________________

See my reply to JeanneAnne about this.  I allow access to my water, on my parcel next to the Blake Sea and that is enough. I don't even have to do that.   I feel that saying i must put up with anyone walking into my home too just because they feel like it is unreasonable. I will add that retention of paying customers is equally important if not more so that newbs.  Newbs come and go for reasons that have nothing to do with this topic.  If paying customers leave SL because their SL privacy is being disrupted by people with no common courtesy that is far more damaging.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Qie Niangao wrote:

It's not nearly "easy enough" to do that, if you're simply out exploring the Mainland.

It is quite different on a standalone, void-surrounded Estate sim, all owned by one party, all intended to be private. In that case, the owner can just block all entry except to friends, and even if they don't, at least in my experience hardly anybody ever strays onto those sims uninvited anyway. In that case, the landowner can be as visitor-hostile as they want, it doesn't matter. The landowner can even physics-torture intruding avatars, for all I care, if that satisfies some primal need for privacy.

But "courtesy" and "respect" cut both ways. Privacy in SL is something that some folks value. Exploring is something of value to others.

I have a lot of respect for exploring. I'm quite sure I wouldn't be in SL now had I not, early on, accidentally "explored" my way into Scope Cleaver's fantastic house on the Jeogeot coast, and learned the potential of SL architecture. That's not saying that every space has to be open for exploration, but rather that privacy measures should respect exploration, too: until proven otherwise, such measures should always start from the assumption that intruders are innocent. In my experience (apparently counter to yours), they almost always are.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Give me a break.  What is sooooo hard about clicking on land and checking the parcel information?  It takes mere seconds. I do it all the time when I explore. If you don't want to do that because it somehow interfers with your exploring than you must accept the consequences of being ejected and or banned without warning, if the landowner wishes to do so and have no room to complain.

Privacy rights are given to us by LL under the TOS.  Section 6 of the TOS states clearly: "You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you."  There is no right to explore as you please under the TOS and there is no distinction made between private estates and mainland.  Mainland is not public land unless it is owned by LL or the owner chooses to make it public.  Your argument is based on your own self serving desires not on any basis of fact.

I like to explore myself but never go on private land unless invited.  I also respect peoples need to explore, on land open to the public.  I provide an entire sim that people can explore that my partner and I pay for out of our own pocket without asking anything in return.  I don't think it is unreasonable that land we own for our own private use remains private, whether we are there or not, whether we use ban lines or security systems or not, or if it is private estate or mainland. 

You have not given a valid reason for the need to actually enter private property without invitation instead of camming when you explore.  Your whole argument  boils down to you prefer to and therefore feel that you have a right and I should respect that.  It is a self serving reason.  If you don't care who enters your home ,that is your right and I respect it.  But that is all the respect that you are due on this issue , other than the right to express an opinion and basic respect as a fellow human.

And yes, rarely do we get innocent people enter our home.  In our combined 13+ years of experience my partner and I find that most do it with impunity because they feel they have a right that they do not have.  They are mostly rude, disruptive and out to cause trouble or want to use our home because they don't want to pay for their own. When we forgot to turn on security or raises ban lines, we have come home to find people having sex, having parties in our house, and watching movies on our TV. I've had strangers rez syboxes above our house and attempt to live there. When I was single and had an unexpected health issue that prevented me from coming into SL for a few months, people moved into my house and lived there until a friend with rights found them there accidently and ejected them.  I could go on with many more examples, but the few I have given are ample justification to protect our privacy as we see fit.

 

 

 

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


JeanneAnne wrote:


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:


I am not unreasonable.  We have a "weekend" home on the Blake sea for sailing.  The water on our property is open so that people sailing aren't ejected if they happen to stray into it.  Our home and deck are not open, yet not a day goes by when someone doesn't attempt to enter our home uninvitied and gets ejected.

 

 

 

ltl by ltl iv been learning to sail .. 1st i had to learn to control the boat & to tack against the wind .. that was pretty easy .. then the problem i had was that my boat wouldnt cross sim boundaries .. 3 sundays ago my bigger faster boat wouldnt cross
any
boundaries .. then 2 weekends ago the smaller slower boat made several crossings be4 crashing .. then this past sunday the larger boat made every sim crossing until it got hung up in those damn yellow ban lines .. im still learning to navigate .. i was following the map but trying to go in pretty much a direct line .. & there was land & stuff in the way & narrow places to go thru .. some a**hole had put yellow ban lines across 1 such narrow place .. the boat got stuck in them & wouldnt move .. so what i did is flew up, took the boat back in2 inv, flew high & set the mysti tool on fasterest & followed the map across many sims to where my sis was DJing .. so for the 1st time i navigated the cruise howbeit only maybe a 3rduv the way in my boat .. next i need to figure out how to set a course that keeps more to the open sea 

my point being: cursed be any1 who sets those dam yellow lines !! So Mote It BE .. 1st they make me lose my cat & then my boat gets stuck in them .. they suck & so do the ppl who put em up

Jeanne

 

I don't use ban lines on my parcel by the ocean, although I could.  I use a security system that protects only my house and deck. The water that is on my parcel is open for anyone to use and provides plenty of room to turn a boat around.  My house is in a small cove area that is not on the main sailing channel.  The people that get ejected are not sailors that have lost control of their boats, but people who deliberately try to enter my home uninvited even when we are there.  We had one just last night pop up on our deck and stand on the lounge between my partner and not say a word.  It wasn't an accident they did it deliberately.   If they someone passing by asks politely I generally have no problem with it will invite them in and chat with them, unless it is not a good time for us. 

BTW, you can get a HUD that shows on your screen and gives you plenty of advance warning of ban lines so you can steer around them.  If you don't have the skill to do that yet you should stay in the area of the ocean that is nothing but open sea.  There are a large multi sim areas like that which give you plenty of room to practice your sailing skills without getting stuck or driving your boat into a house. 

 

thank you for not putting ban lines across the water

yeah .. i need to learn to chart a course from the get go that keeps me & my boat out in the open sea .. its like a maze trying to just sail towards the beacon .. thats my next step! a couple weeks ago i was just trying to follow the other boats .. this was my 1st time trying to follow the map on my own .. it worked & i found my way .. but went thru a bunchuv narrow places & around stuff & ended up just flying over all the land & boats in the way

Jeanne

 

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I see SL as a social media and has hard time to understand some ban lines, avatar privacy settings and security orbs. Just some days ago I did want to look on SL highest peak and did flew there, it was so high up that I not could see any borders and I did not flew to near, but as fast I did pass a non visible line I was sent back home while my balloon did go on without me.

I think like this; if you want privacy in the mainland, move the house up in the sky (3 000m and upwards) and mark the grifer/security orbs radius with a big sphere. Land is to get prims and can therefor be keept open for all to explore or to have stores in, or to show puplic information about that land owner not want you to peek in to the big and super visible huuse they dod build for they are a bit afraid the furries may steal the flat screen TV.

For how often do folk intrude in to the house? I did belong to a group that had Land in Minna, we had a big house there that was open, but even it was in a popular area near Natoma we had very few users, so I just wounder if intruders are a so big problem that folk has to grief explorers, drivers and flight entusiams to protetc ther privace even they not are online?

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Kennylex Luckless wrote:

 

For how often do folk intrude in to the house?
I did belong to a group that had Land in Minna, we had a big house there that was open, but even it was in a popular area near Natoma we had very few users, so I just wounder if intruders are a so big problem
that folk has to grief explorers, drivers and flight entusiams
to protetc ther privace even they not are online?

(Emphasis mine)

As has already been pointed out, per the LL TOS land owners putting up any type of privacy they wish is NOT griefing.

As for how often do people intrude - you'd be surprised.  I have always done as you suggested and lived in the sky - just a personal preference and not made initially due to intruders.  Years ago the highest one could fly or place a home was quite a bit less than 3,000m.  (Can someone please refresh my memory on what the max height was back in 2007-2008?) 

Finding a spot in the sky where one has a modicum of privacy is tricky as well - a LOT of people have homes, building platforms, you-name-it in the sky.  My former partner and I finally found a spot around 600m.  So, going on your assumption that this will allow explorers to go on their merry way while simultaneously not having intruders in one's home - that didn't happen.  No clue what was going on at ground level - our home was on a water sim and we didn't have any structure at water level, so people could have been swimming, sailing, walking, hot air ballooning to their hearts content.

Back up at 600m, however, we averaged at least 1 person/week trying to enter our house.  This was not just a "lost explorer" as people would land on our doorstep, ring the doorbell, hover outside our windows; one amusing case was a guy who kept slamming into our windows much like a bird who flies into glass windows, although our windows were very visible.  Not sure if this dude thought by slamming into the window long enough it would break or he would somehow pass through solid matter (without doing the sit on a prim trick).  Regardless of how entertaining this could be, there were "private times" when we did not find this so amusing.  My partner finally got an orb that was set for just the perimeter of our house - it did not include the entire property which, at 600m, was just empty air - so people could fly "around" our house, just not have their noses pressed against our windows.  I believe he set the time for 30 sec.

The high-flying types didn't lessen, but they got "escorted away" quickly.  I wore a Mystitool all the time back then and when I saw someone get within our orb space I would quickly pull up the person's profile out of curiosity. (Love reading profiles!) Nine times out of ten, the avatar was male.  I was taken aback one time when one of the profiles I pulled up was filled with "Voyeur" and "Peeping Tom" groups.  I didn't even know they existed.  I have had no reason to look, but it would be interesting to see if those groups still exist - my assumption is they do.  The point being - yes there are some people who get "lost" but there are other people who truly are "peeping" for other reasons.

I was thrilled when the max air height was raised.  I now live at around 3500m, do not have any kind of security on my parcel and, at least when I've been home, have not seen any "peeping toms" - lol.  I also live on the same water sim, now on a parcel bordered by two protected Linden oceans.  Anyone sailing in the ocean can safely pass by, around, and between my land while I'm generally in my home or building platform - in the sky. ;)

 

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Kennylex Luckless wrote:

I see SL as a social media and has hard time to understand some ban lines, avatar privacy settings and security orbs. Just some days ago I did want to look on SL highest peak and did flew there, it was so high up that I not could see any borders and I did not flew to near, but as fast I did pass a non visible line I was sent back home while my balloon did go on without me.

I think like this; if you want privacy in the mainland, move the house up in the sky (3 000m and upwards) and mark the grifer/security orbs radius with a big sphere. Land is to get prims and can therefor be keept open for all to explore or to have stores in, or to show puplic information about that land owner not want you to peek in to the big and super visible huuse they dod build for they are a bit afraid the furries may steal the flat screen TV.

For how often do folk intrude in to the house? I did belong to a group that had Land in Minna, we had a big house there that was open, but even it was in a popular area near Natoma we had very few users, so I just wounder if intruders are a so big problem that folk has to grief explorers, drivers and flight entusiams to protetc ther privace even they not are online?

good post Kenny .. i agree w/ you ;)

LoL @ furries stealing TVs too .. :P

Jeanne

 

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ban lines may be allowed by the ToS but that doesnt keep them from causing others grief .. so i have no qualms about considering ppl who put them up being "griefers" .. not everything that is allowed or 'legal' is right

my skyhouse is @ 600m & iv never seen anyone around it or trying to get into it .. maybe they do when im not there but since they cant take anything or mess anything up why should i care?

Jeanne

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JeanneAnne wrote:

ban lines may be allowed by the ToS but that doesnt keep them from causing others grief .. so i have no qualms about considering ppl who put them up being "griefers" .. not everything that is allowed or 'legal' is right

my skyhouse is @ 600m & iv never seen anyone around it or trying to get into it .. maybe they do when im not there but since they cant take anything or mess anything up why should i care?

Jeanne

I can see your point on banlines "causing" grief - for one thing they're ugly (well the red ones I still see are :matte-motes-tongue:) but then the viewers, or at least Phoenix, added the option to turn ban lines off.  That helps with the viewing blight but doesn't do anything for people trying to manuever around them.  (I commend you for trying your hand at sailing.  I'm absolutely the worst trying to navigate any type of vehicle.  I rezzed a motorcycle at a private sandbox years ago for members of Isle of Wyrms.  A whole bunch of dragons were not happy campers when I plowed into them due to my lack of being able to "drive" well...or at all.  Yeah, never did that again...lol.)

I'm a proponent of security orbs if one wishes to secure their land.  The newer ones (at least the one I bought a few years ago) have warning times up to 60 secs. - MUCH better than 10 secs. which I do think is not enough time to even read the warning sign.

As for flybys - I'm wondering if there are less of them now.  Another thread awhile back was talking about some high tech form of griefing I'd never head of while, back when I started SL, flying monkey head particles, being orbited or caged were the main griefing tools.  Flying around someone's home in the sky may not be the in thing now.  As I said, I haven't experienced it in the last couple of years myself, but thought it was due to being higher up.

 

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