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Pamela Galli

ITEMS DELIVERED & NO PAYMENT

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I have just had two items in a row delivered by the Magic Box, but no payment was made to me. The order history shows them as Undelivered. 

Check your records!

And BTW -- I only know about this because I still have some things being delivered by Magic Boxes. Direct Delivery things I don't get delivery emails for. 

 

I have filed a ticket.

 

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Hey there Pamela, by any chance did you search for it by order number or customer name? (edited - if you see the "undelivered" state then, you did) Could it possibly be they put it in the cart a while back and are just now completing the transaction?

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I don't understand Arwen.

 

The order said not delivered, says now Failed Delivery. Nothing has been paid to me. Nothing in Transactions. But the Magic Box delivered them.  Two kitchens and a house. Over L10,000.

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Totally believe you, and, very very sorry to hear it happened.

I had hoped it might be related to the "stale shopping cart" issue.

I have only one item left on MB delivery, but I will watch it and see if it happens. I'm sure other Merchants will chime in here too if they start to see it happening to them.

It will be very interesting to hear what Support says about this one.

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This points out one of my biggest concerns with the recent Marketplace failures. With Magic Box deliveries we have absolute proof outside LL's control of delivery. Thus you are able to spot and document that delivery did occur. With Direct Delivery there is no proof and no indication.

ANS is supposed to provide proof of delivery even via Direct Delivery, but over the last week I've begun spotting failures of the Marketplace's ANS system to report deliveries. The ones I'm able to spot are those that are reported in the Marketplace and SL Transaction histories but are never relayed to the ANS processor. I have no idea how many products are being delivered via DD but are not recorded anywhere.

The amount you've spotted as a loss is much higher than anything I've seen in my own personal sales to date, but it would not surprise me to learn that you are only one of a much larger group that is routinely suffering losses due to failures in the financial systems of the Marketplace. L$10,000 amounts to just over $36USD, so not that much by itself. However if we assume you are 1/100th of the problem, the loss overall is easily exceeding $3600USD. Suddenly it's no longer "micropayments" .. it's outright fraud.

Isn't it about time the true power-sellers on the Marketplace retain a lawyer and file a class action suit against Linden Lab for their fiscal malpractice? It's certainly obvious that despite their ToS and Marketplace guidelines (and that folderol about Linden Dollars being only "game tokens") that they are defrauding people out of felony level amounts.

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Arwen Serpente wrote:

Totally believe you, and, very very sorry to hear it happened.

I had hoped it might be related to the "stale shopping cart" issue.

I have only one item left on MB delivery, but I will watch it and see if it happens. I'm sure other Merchants will chime in here too if they start to see it happening to them.

It will be very interesting to hear what Support says about this one.

As I understand the stale shopping cart issue, it looks like there is no record of any transaction in the orders, because the order was backdated to when it was put in the cart. Something like that? 

This is something else -- they just say, nope was not delivered, you did not get paid -- but the Magic Box delivered it.

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I agree.  About time the power sellers take LL to task.  And they cannot hide behind their TOS.  Basically, if anything has a value (which Lindend dollars do), and they have a problem with THEIR system not paying you your Lindens, then they are responsible.  Its not fraud.  That would denote a plan to actually "steal" lindens from people.  In this case its more loss of private property through negligence.  Just as bad either way you look at it.  And if LL thinks their TOS will protect them, well they will have another thing coming since courts have already said that "virtual" goods if they can be purchased with real money, then they have a value in real life.  What solidifies this even more is that LL runs the exchange for ppl to sell their lindens for real money.  Either way, they can be sued.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Isn't it about time the true power-sellers on the Marketplace retain a lawyer and file a class action suit against Linden Lab for their fiscal malpractice? It's certainly obvious that despite their ToS and Marketplace guidelines (and that folderol about Linden Dollars being only "game tokens") that they are defrauding people out of felony level amounts.

I don't know if I am a power seller any more, tho on Xstreet I was -- SLM pretty much destroyed my search rank forever.  Anyway, LL can cancel my account any time it likes, so I would not want to do anything to anger it. And I am glad they let me keep as much of my income as they do.

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This critical missing DD feature was brought up very early in its relwase that DD does not provide aby product deliveey notificstions unlike MB. And since LL is notorious for screwing up a fragile disconnected system it could be sending out our producrs without any notice to the merchant. We had this fwar in the summer.

 

 

Its scary and Rodvik has a team that doesnt understand the basics of ecommece systems.

 

I hope the big merchants start thinking of taking legal action against LL. Maybe this will rodvim to do what he as CEO seems unable to do proactively. Fix the mismanagemnt in his commerce team.

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I had the same thing happen 2 days ago, Oct 5th.  2 separate orders by same person.  I got magic box notices of delivery, but no sales order notices.  So I IMed the customer yesterday and confirmed he received.  Still no L$s today and on SLM still showing as "undelivered" or "being delivered".  So I just filed a support ticket.  The sales before and after this have all been fine and luckily the L$ amounts for me are minor compared to your loss Pamela.

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Thanks Trinity, the more tickets the better. I have tweeted about it and posted in the inworld Commerce group.  Unless you are monitoring, it would be easy to miss it.

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namssab1nad Piers wrote:

(snip) ...  Its not fraud.  That would denote a plan to actually "steal" lindens from people.  In this case its more loss of private property through negligence. ...(snip)

I stand corrected. Yes indeed, Fraud would be intent to take money illegally. I believe though that while proving fraud would be almost impossible, proving negligence would be a breeze. Of course now that they've hidden the JIRA, all public record of them being made aware is now gone, so they've adequately covered their backside there. Like it or not, they've got some savvy lawyers on the payroll.

The fact that they list a USD amount on products listed on the Marketplace also gives them real-world value. Thus if Pamela and others add up posted dollar amounts for products they have "lost" due to delivery without payment, I suspect the numbers in real-world money will reflect a value worthy of raising a legal stink.

Yeah, I'm being a real rabble-rouser on this issue. It just galls me that they (LL) continue to act with impunity, rendering absolutely abysmal service, then standing behind their "Giant Gorilla" status as a shield.

@Pamela - Your statement about living in fear that they can close your account on a whim is EXACTLY what gets my hackles up. I've never been fond of people that use their power and position to exact inequities on others. It is the responsiblity of the strong and powerful to PROTECT those in their care, not bully them into compliance. I've spent way too much of my life watching how supposedly powerful people act with complete indifference as they savage and destroy the lives of those around them.

Pamela, I wish for all our sakes that I had a way to make LL pay attention, but it will only be with the courage and action of a group of people such as yourself that LL will ever be made to listen. I think it's clear that reasonable time has passed for LL to correct these errors; any delay from here on out is nothing but negligence. Now we just have to pray that enough people with enough anger will bond together and prove to LL that being the bully is not as much fun as it seems.

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Another kitchen was just delivered by MB but not paid for.

 

My store is my job, and I am the sole support of my family; I don't have any legal protections as I might if I worked for some employer. LL is under no obligation to allow any of us to keep any of our money. No way would I ever dream of filing a lawsuit, unless maybe we are talking about tens of thousands of dollars.

 

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Just a thought Pamela...I know you were having issues with your sim yesterday or the day before and needed a rollback to recover some important items. Did you by any chance resync/reset your MB's after that (assuming they are on the sim that was affected). Maybe that could help?

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There are no Magic Boxes on the sim I had rolled back, Arwen -- and thank you for trying to look at all the angles!  Also, the Magic Boxes are working fine. Delivering, sending emails. It's the marketplace software that is failing.

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what really does bother me and has been totally ignored by the Commerce Team is that DD has no delivery notification.  This all scared us once before to the point that we were all talking about how to put scripts in our MP products that would be triggered on-res so that we could develop some half-baked alternative to LL's DD not providing this important notification within the system.

At least with MB - there is adelivery notice.

Maybe now that LL Commerce Team is indicating that MB distributing may never be retired (cause LL cant seem to fix the bugs in DD after all these months)... the option for merchants to seriously consider is to revert back distribution to the old but more trusted MB.

Its funny how MP replaced xstreet and yet to date xstreet still had features MP doesnt to this day.  DD replaced MB and to date MB is as reliable and more informative (provides audit trails) that the current DD does not provide.

The trend / strategy that the Commerce Team has been following (i.e. provide less with newer solutions) seems to be on track.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

Maybe now that LL Commerce Team is indicating that MB distributing may never be retired (cause LL cant seem to fix the bugs in DD after all these months)... the option for merchants to seriously consider is to revert back distribution to the old but more trusted MB.


Especially with the "indefinite" postponement of shutting down MBs, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the MBs remain.  Also another reason I will not go DD until forced to - ie. when/if the MBs are turned off.  I submitted a ticket back in April asking what would happen to a merchant's MP store when the MBs were shut down and one did not yet have the ability to run DD.  I was advised by Dakota Linden that as long as items were not delisted they would remain intact and could be converted to DD at a later date (or words to that effect).

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

There are no Magic Boxes on the sim I had rolled back, Arwen -- and thank you for trying to look at all the angles!  Also, the Magic Boxes are working fine. Delivering, sending emails. It's the marketplace software that is failing.

Pam,  did you actually contact these customers and ask them if they actually received the product?  Also, ask them if their account was changed for the transaction. 

Unfortunately as a DD merchant now, I dont know if I had no sales because it was a quiet day or if 4 or 5 customers bought my products, were charged, and LL is enjoying all the value of my sales.  At least with MB - you can see something went wrong.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

what really does bother me and has been totally ignored by the Commerce Team is that DD has no delivery notification.  This all scared us once before to the point that we were all talking about how to put scripts in our MP products that would be triggered on-res so that we could develop some half-baked alternative to LL's DD not providing this important notification within the system.


Sorry I didn't combine this all into one post. :matte-motes-bashful:

I actually do use a notify on rez script for my MP items.  Even though I still use MBs and am still receiving email notifications, with all the MP screw-ups, beginning with the mixed listings (which still remain lo these many months later), I decided to take whatever pro-active measures I could. 

 

 

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@Czari,

 

The only reason I did not exdcute that tool to make up for a critical missing feature in DD is that once deployed, and distributed, I couldnt ever stop it.  So I could end up getting countless emails or notices from a growing number of customers every time they rez the product and not stop it.

That is why as much as I would like to get a delivery notification on a DD delivery... that solution scares me more.

The right solution is for it to be put into the DD function - or some audit trail within LL to prove that a product was bought and delivered - regardless of the LL MP financial transaction system says or doesnt say.

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Oh yes the customers say they received the houses and kitchenswhen the order says the delivery failed.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

@Czari,

 

The only reason I did not exdcute that tool to make up for a critical missing feature in DD is that once deployed, and distributed, I couldnt ever stop it.  So I could end up getting countless emails or notices from a growing number of customers every time they rez the product and not stop it.

...

 

 

 

 

Hi Toy, I remember during all the discussions about the lack of DD notifications, there was at least one post regarding a notify script that only notifies once (upon first rez) and then self deletes. Zanara makes one (here: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/ArtiZan-Business-Script-IM-Creator-on-Rez-notifies-when-products-are-unpacked/3061369)

Maybe that will help you :)

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

I stand corrected. Yes indeed, Fraud would be intent to take money illegally. I believe though that while proving fraud would be almost impossible, proving negligence would be a breeze. Of course now that they've hidden the JIRA, all public record of them being made aware is now gone, so they've adequately covered their backside there. Like it or not, they've got some savvy lawyers on the payroll.

The fact that they list a USD amount on products listed on the Marketplace also gives them real-world value. Thus if Pamela and others add up posted dollar amounts for products they have "lost" due to delivery without payment, I suspect the numbers in real-world money will reflect a value worthy of raising a legal stink.

Yeah, I'm being a real rabble-rouser on this issue. It just galls me that they (LL) continue to act with impunity, rendering absolutely abysmal service, then standing behind their "Giant Gorilla" status as a shield.

@Pamela - Your statement about living in fear that they can close your account on a whim is EXACTLY what gets my hackles up. I've never been fond of people that use their power and position to exact inequities on others. It is the responsiblity of the strong and powerful to PROTECT those in their care, not bully them into compliance. I've spent way too much of my life watching how supposedly powerful people act with complete indifference as they savage and destroy the lives of those around them.

Pamela, I wish for all our sakes that I had a way to make LL pay attention, but it will only be with the courage and action of a group of people such as yourself that LL will ever be made to listen. I think it's clear that reasonable time has passed for LL to correct these errors; any delay from here on out is nothing but negligence. Now we just have to pray that enough people with enough anger will bond together and prove to LL that being the bully is not as much fun as it seems.

 There are things that can be done, and perhaps it's about time to seriously begin that process. Here in SL it may be difficult because things like this take substantial effort and involvement by people.

Did try to predict that Zynga would be a factor in exposing some of this virtual currency "stuff", and that has proven true to some extent so far.

For instance the American Bankers Association is trying to get the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to regulate virtual currency as real currency mostly because of Zynga/Facebook currency.

There are some other rumblings out there, but nothing of regulatory or precedent setting substance.

 If enough people are interested, consumer protection can be achieved for virtual currency and goods, not just here in SL, but overall.

To some people this is employment, time, income and real world worth.

It "should" happen, as we see here repeatedly.

 

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